Should our Constitution's 2nd Amendment be amended ... ?

[Dr Grump]

To answer the OP, hell yes...

I agree actually....we should change the wording...."leftist jerks.....this means people get to own guns...is that simple enough for you?" And that won't solve the problem...but it would make us feel better when we have to listen to the anti gun jihadis lie about guns....

What's there to lie about? The US is the only developed country in the world where there is a proliferation of guns and you have the death stats that show what goes with that.

Why should the vast majority of US citizens be tied down by such knee-jerk reactionaries like the NRA, or people who believe the 'govt is coming to get them', or the vast majority who like to be Big Man on Campus with their peashooters. It's about time the gun-loving turds grew the fuck up....won't happen of course....

 

[2aguy]

To answer the OP, hell yes...

I agree actually....we should change the wording...."leftist jerks.....this means people get to own guns...is that simple enough for you?" And that won't solve the problem...but it would make us feel better when we have to listen to the anti gun jihadis lie about guns....

What's there to lie about? The US is the only developed country in the world where there is a proliferation of guns and you have the death stats that show what goes with that.

Why should the vast majority of US citizens be tied down by such knee-jerk reactionaries like the NRA, or people who believe the 'govt is coming to get them', or the vast majority who like to be Big Man on Campus with their peashooters. It's about time the gun-loving turds grew the fuck up....won't happen of course....

actually we have 8,124 gun murders in 2013....and according to bill clinton and his Department of Justice which hired two anti gun researchers who created a study to debunk gun self defense numbers, they found Americans use guns 1.5 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack and save lives.....

Let's see.....

8,124 gun murders by criminals breaking the law...

1.5 million times violent crimes are stopped by gun carrying Americans....


And of course....12 million people murdered in Europe because they were unarmed by their governments....

And in Europe...the government did come to get them..and sent those 12 million people to gas chambers....

You should actually study history....

Genocide and mass murder only happens to people who don't have guns to stop it...

Care to compute those numbers....?

 

[2aguy]

To answer the OP, hell yes...

I agree actually....we should change the wording...."leftist jerks.....this means people get to own guns...is that simple enough for you?" And that won't solve the problem...but it would make us feel better when we have to listen to the anti gun jihadis lie about guns....

What's there to lie about? The US is the only developed country in the world where there is a proliferation of guns and you have the death stats that show what goes with that.

Why should the vast majority of US citizens be tied down by such knee-jerk reactionaries like the NRA, or people who believe the 'govt is coming to get them', or the vast majority who like to be Big Man on Campus with their peashooters. It's about time the gun-loving turds grew the fuck up....won't happen of course....

Do you realize that criminals in Europe can get guns just as easily as American criminals can. The culture of Europe with its reverence for central government and its pacifism created by the World Wars creates a climate where their criminals don't use guns as much....but access to guns is easy in Europe....just ask the criminals...

 

[Freiheit]

Sour grapes, name calling, dishonesty, emotionalism the best the antis have to offer.
In the words of that great American philosopher Bugs Bunny "What a bunch of maroons".

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Sour grapes, name calling, dishonesty, emotionalism the best the antis have to offer.
In the words of that great American philosopher Bugs Bunny "What a bunch of maroons".

Ignorance, lies, misinformation, and fallacies is all conservatives have to offer, where most on the right are unable or unwilling to enter into a good faith discussion as to what gun control measures are appropriate, warranted, and Constitutional and what measures are not.

 

[Dr Grump]

actually we have 8,124 gun murders in 2013....and according to bill clinton and his Department of Justice which hired two anti gun researchers who created a study to debunk gun self defense numbers, they found Americans use guns 1.5 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack and save lives.....

Let's see.....

8,124 gun murders by criminals breaking the law...

1.5 million times violent crimes are stopped by gun carrying Americans....


And of course....12 million people murdered in Europe because they were unarmed by their governments....

And in Europe...the government did come to get them..and sent those 12 million people to gas chambers....

You should actually study history....

Genocide and mass murder only happens to people who don't have guns to stop it...

Care to compute those numbers....?

Yeah, let's compare apples and oranges. Let's compare modern Europe to that of 80 years ago. What do you do for an encore, compare the Salem Witch trials to the current US judicial system?

Times have changed. And if you think your govt is 'out to get you', you forget who actually has the weapons and guns. Your armed forces, most of which are conservative, and therefore have common values to your own. I very much doubt they would turn on their own.

At the end of the day you live in a violent society. I would say getting rid of a lot of the guns on the street would do a lot more to stop such deaths. The rest of the western world is living proof of that....

 

[Freiheit]

You make assumptions C-Clayton_Jones and make an ass of yourself. Assigning labels willy nilly will do that.
Being pro liberty does not make one conservative or liberal (whatever those terms mean) it makes one pro liberty.
Your statement does indicate you are a bigot and bigotry like racism is stupid.

 

[2aguy]

actually we have 8,124 gun murders in 2013....and according to bill clinton and his Department of Justice which hired two anti gun researchers who created a study to debunk gun self defense numbers, they found Americans use guns 1.5 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack and save lives.....

Let's see.....

8,124 gun murders by criminals breaking the law...

1.5 million times violent crimes are stopped by gun carrying Americans....


And of course....12 million people murdered in Europe because they were unarmed by their governments....

And in Europe...the government did come to get them..and sent those 12 million people to gas chambers....

You should actually study history....

Genocide and mass murder only happens to people who don't have guns to stop it...

Care to compute those numbers....?

Yeah, let's compare apples and oranges. Let's compare modern Europe to that of 80 years ago. What do you do for an encore, compare the Salem Witch trials to the current US judicial system?

Times have changed. And if you think your govt is 'out to get you', you forget who actually has the weapons and guns. Your armed forces, most of which are conservative, and therefore have common values to your own. I very much doubt they would turn on their own.

At the end of the day you live in a violent society. I would say getting rid of a lot of the guns on the street would do a lot more to stop such deaths. The rest of the western world is living proof of that....

80 years ago.....Germany was a moder nation...with universities, and scientists and philosophers, and it was one of the leading countries in the world.......and in a span of 20 years it became a place that murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children for no other reason than their religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, physical conditions and oppostion to their agenda......

You guys ignore history....unarmed people are the victims of genocide...

At our very border, drug cartels and their allies in the Mexican government are murdering Mexican citizens in their thousands....

What about the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans...was that 80 years ago/

What about the Russians in the Ukraine...do you think they are treating the Ukranians behind their lines with kindness....?

Gun crime exists in Europe, Austalia and around the world...and it is getting worse in Europe and Australia.....after the confiscations......

 

[Dr Grump]

80 years ago.....Germany was a moder nation...with universities, and scientists and philosophers, and it was one of the leading countries in the world.......and in a span of 20 years it became a place that murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children for no other reason than their religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, physical conditions and oppostion to their agenda......

You guys ignore history....unarmed people are the victims of genocide...

At our very border, drug cartels and their allies in the Mexican government are murdering Mexican citizens in their thousands....

What about the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans...was that 80 years ago/

What about the Russians in the Ukraine...do you think they are treating the Ukranians behind their lines with kindness....?

Gun crime exists in Europe, Austalia and around the world...and it is getting worse in Europe and Australia.....after the confiscations......

90 years ago Germany was a basketcase thanks to the Treaty of Versailles, which lead to the Nazis coming to power in the first place.

Thanks for mentioning Russia, the Ukraine, Mexico, the Balkans and all the other 'western democracies' that I was comparing the US to.

And you are dead wrong with regard to gun crime in Australia. I live here. Bugger-all gun crime here. Certainly not enough for people wanting to go around being armed all the time.

 

[LOki]

To answer the OP, hell yes...

I agree actually....we should change the wording...."leftist jerks.....this means people get to own guns...is that simple enough for you?" And that won't solve the problem...but it would make us feel better when we have to listen to the anti gun jihadis lie about guns....

What's there to lie about? The US is the only developed country in the world where there is a proliferation of guns and you have the death stats that show what goes with that.

Why should the vast majority of US citizens be tied down by such knee-jerk reactionaries like the NRA, or people who believe the 'govt is coming to get them', or the vast majority who like to be Big Man on Campus with their peashooters. It's about time the gun-loving turds grew the fuck up....won't happen of course....

If your strawman was actually made of straw, it would have all the benefits of being made of straw.

 

[Dr Grump]

If your strawman was actually made of straw, it would have all the benefits of being made of straw.

No strawman here. Now move along.

Good to see you're still up and around Loki. Thought you were really sick. Or maybe that was somebody else.....

 

[LOki]

80 years ago.....Germany was a moder nation...with universities, and scientists and philosophers, and it was one of the leading countries in the world.......and in a span of 20 years it became a place that murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children for no other reason than their religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, physical conditions and oppostion to their agenda......

You guys ignore history....unarmed people are the victims of genocide...

At our very border, drug cartels and their allies in the Mexican government are murdering Mexican citizens in their thousands....

What about the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans...was that 80 years ago/

What about the Russians in the Ukraine...do you think they are treating the Ukranians behind their lines with kindness....?

Gun crime exists in Europe, Austalia and around the world...and it is getting worse in Europe and Australia.....after the confiscations......

90 years ago Germany was a basketcase thanks to the Treaty of Versailles, which lead to the Nazis coming to power in the first place.

Thanks for mentioning Russia, the Ukraine, Mexico, the Balkans and all the other 'western democracies' that I was comparing the US to.

And you are dead wrong with regard to gun crime in Australia. I live here. Bugger-all gun crime here. Certainly not enough for people wanting to go around being armed all the time.

"Gun crime" is the foundation of a meaningless tautology.

Asserting that "gun crime" would be diminished by removing guns, is asserting the same kind of meaningless tautology that says getting rid of account ledgers would diminish the incidence of accounting fraud; the argument is specious, and it distracts from discussing a "violence problem"--that is not solvable by these gun-control laws you advocate.

When you deliberately create the special category of "gun crime" so that you can both include crimes that were not caused by guns; and exclude crimes caused by people (but without using guns), you tacitly admit that you're JUST FINE with all the criminal violence in the world... provided no gun was involved.

"Gun crime"...the rhetorical tautology that exposes anti-rights advocates for the callous human shit-birds that they are.

 

[Dr Grump]

"Gun crime" is the foundation of a meaningless tautology.

Asserting that "gun crime" would be diminished by removing guns, is asserting the same kind of meaningless tautology that says getting rid of account ledgers would diminish the incidence of accounting fraud; the argument is specious, and it distracts from discussing a "violence problem"--that is not solvable by these gun-control laws you advocate.

When you deliberately create the special category of "gun crime" so that you can both include crimes that were not caused by guns; and exclude crimes caused by people (but without using guns), you tacitly admit that you're JUST FINE with all the criminal violence in the world... provided no gun was involved.

"Gun crime"...the rhetorical tautology that exposes anti-rights advocates for the callous human shit-birds that they are.

I'm not the one who brought up gun crime per se. My main plank is there doesn't need to be a proliferation of guns in a modern society. Europe, Canada, New Zealand and Australia are examples of modern, free, functioning societies that show that you don't need guns in such a society.

Now, I know you'll say you don't 'need' a gun, which is fine. You just want one, and as a 'free' person you should be allowed one. At the end of the day no person is an island. You may think you should be allowed to do what you want when you want without consequences. At the end of the day, any functioning democracy has rules and regulations for a reason. Most of them come about because people believe a society will be better if such laws exist. Sometimes they make sense (laws against murder) sometimes not (prohibition). I want to live in a society where I walk down the street knowing that somebody isn't carrying a firearm and decide that they've had enough of life and want to off people because they've had a bad day. And that is a problem in the US. Do other nations have such people? Sure. But nowhere to the extent of the US. This link about sums it up for me....

 

[LOki]

Sour grapes, name calling, dishonesty, emotionalism the best the antis have to offer.
In the words of that great American philosopher Bugs Bunny "What a bunch of maroons".

Ignorance, lies, misinformation, and fallacies is all conservatives have to offer, where most on the right are unable or unwilling to enter into a good faith discussion as to what gun control measures are appropriate, warranted, and Constitutional and what measures are not.

Projection.

 

[AvgGuyIA]

Should our Constitution's 2nd Amendment be amended to promote gun control?

Moderation Note:
Quote Removed because it's from another Message Board. Check the rules.

Automobiles may kill more humans than guns kill in the U.S.
But we already regulate them. To operate them on public roadways:
- the driver must be licensed
- the vehicle must meet legal standards
- obeying motor-vehicle & traffic laws is required
- cars are being built safer and "better" all the time. Most of a century ago, there were cars on the road with 2 wheel brakes. Today there are cars on our public roadways with:
4 wheel power disc brakes
anti-lock brakes
air bags (front & side)
crumple-zone crash-energy absorption design
collapsible steering column
and much, much more.

So since their proliferation, cars have gotten safer, and better.
In vivid contrast, since the U.S. Founding, guns have gotten vastly more lethal.

Should the United States Constitution's Second Amendment which acknowledges the People's "right to keep and bear arms" be amended to compensate for this divergent technological trend? Safer cars, and ever more deadly guns?

You can't amend an Amendment..

 

[2aguy]

80 years ago.....Germany was a moder nation...with universities, and scientists and philosophers, and it was one of the leading countries in the world.......and in a span of 20 years it became a place that murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children for no other reason than their religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, physical conditions and oppostion to their agenda......

You guys ignore history....unarmed people are the victims of genocide...

At our very border, drug cartels and their allies in the Mexican government are murdering Mexican citizens in their thousands....

What about the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans...was that 80 years ago/

What about the Russians in the Ukraine...do you think they are treating the Ukranians behind their lines with kindness....?

Gun crime exists in Europe, Austalia and around the world...and it is getting worse in Europe and Australia.....after the confiscations......

90 years ago Germany was a basketcase thanks to the Treaty of Versailles, which lead to the Nazis coming to power in the first place.

Thanks for mentioning Russia, the Ukraine, Mexico, the Balkans and all the other 'western democracies' that I was comparing the US to.

And you are dead wrong with regard to gun crime in Australia. I live here. Bugger-all gun crime here. Certainly not enough for people wanting to go around being armed all the time.

I live in the U.S. And where I live there is bugger all gun crime as well....almost all of our gun crime is located just like Australias....in the ports, and the larger urban areas and isolated to small areas in those locations. And just like Australia, our gun murder is mostly confined to criminal gangs and minority populations....

 

[dannyboys]

About 13% of the population is Black. Blacks commit about 70% of ALL violent crimes in the US.
Get back to me when you LIB pussies fix that problem.
Until then I agree with Jesse Jackson who said he's always been afraid to walk in front of a group of young Black men. And he would cross the street to avoid being in that situation.

 

[2aguy]

"Gun crime" is the foundation of a meaningless tautology.

Asserting that "gun crime" would be diminished by removing guns, is asserting the same kind of meaningless tautology that says getting rid of account ledgers would diminish the incidence of accounting fraud; the argument is specious, and it distracts from discussing a "violence problem"--that is not solvable by these gun-control laws you advocate.

When you deliberately create the special category of "gun crime" so that you can both include crimes that were not caused by guns; and exclude crimes caused by people (but without using guns), you tacitly admit that you're JUST FINE with all the criminal violence in the world... provided no gun was involved.

"Gun crime"...the rhetorical tautology that exposes anti-rights advocates for the callous human shit-birds that they are.

I'm not the one who brought up gun crime per se. My main plank is there doesn't need to be a proliferation of guns in a modern society. Europe, Canada, New Zealand and Australia are examples of modern, free, functioning societies that show that you don't need guns in such a society.

Now, I know you'll say you don't 'need' a gun, which is fine. You just want one, and as a 'free' person you should be allowed one. At the end of the day no person is an island. You may think you should be allowed to do what you want when you want without consequences. At the end of the day, any functioning democracy has rules and regulations for a reason. Most of them come about because people believe a society will be better if such laws exist. Sometimes they make sense (laws against murder) sometimes not (prohibition). I want to live in a society where I walk down the street knowing that somebody isn't carrying a firearm and decide that they've had enough of life and want to off people because they've had a bad day. And that is a problem in the US. Do other nations have such people? Sure. But nowhere to the extent of the US. This link about sums it up for me....

So no one is raped, robbed or murdered in Australia anymore since the gun confiscation....and no one uses guns for crime anymore in Australia?

And what about that entire thread in the Australia section of U.S. message that talked about the rape crisis in Australia....considering that guns are the most effective way to stop a rape.....

Your gun crime levels are going up....and when they do, what will you say about your confiscation....you must realize that gun ownership levels are back up to where they were before the confiscation...right? And that New Zealand never go rid of their guns and they have the same low crime rate as you do...

It isn't guns that cause crime but culture, race, and economics........

And as more Americans own and carry guns....we just tipped over 13 million people carrying guns for self defense, our gun crime rate has gone down, not up.....how do you explain that?

And according to bill clinton, who hired 2 anti gun researchers to create a study to find out how often guns are used to stop crime...he did this through his Department of Justice....in order to aid his gun control agenda...that came to an end when the two anti gun researchers, having created their own biased study, found that Americans use guns to stop violent crime 1.5 million times a year.

 

[LOki]

"Gun crime" is the foundation of a meaningless tautology.

Asserting that "gun crime" would be diminished by removing guns, is asserting the same kind of meaningless tautology that says getting rid of account ledgers would diminish the incidence of accounting fraud; the argument is specious, and it distracts from discussing a "violence problem"--that is not solvable by these gun-control laws you advocate.

When you deliberately create the special category of "gun crime" so that you can both include crimes that were not caused by guns; and exclude crimes caused by people (but without using guns), you tacitly admit that you're JUST FINE with all the criminal violence in the world... provided no gun was involved.

"Gun crime"...the rhetorical tautology that exposes anti-rights advocates for the callous human shit-birds that they are.

I'm not the one who brought up gun crime per se.

You're explicitly using that invalid tautology to support your position.

My main plank is there doesn't need to be a proliferation of guns in a modern society. Europe, Canada, New Zealand and Australia are examples of modern, free, functioning societies that show that you don't need guns in such a society.

The argument from (does not) need is invalid for OBVIOUS reasons. Failure number 2.

Now, I know you'll say you don't 'need' a gun, which is fine.

Of course. But I'm not about to say that I'll never need a gun.

More importantly though, I will never tell you that you don't need a gun... I'm certainly not so presumptively stupid to assert that you will NEVER need a gun.

You just want one, and as a 'free' person you should be allowed one.

I want one, because I (might) need one. Owning guns is my civil and constitutionally protected right.

At the end of the day no person is an island. You may think you should be allowed to do what you want when you want without consequences.

OBVIOUS straw-man. Failure number 3. You're just done.

At the end of the day, any functioning democracy has rules and regulations for a reason. Most of them come about because people believe a society will be better if such laws exist. Sometimes they make sense (laws against murder) sometimes not (prohibition).

Yet the beliefs of the majority are NOT immune from being entirely bullshit. That's why this country also has a 1st Amendment... because superstition is not "reasonable."

We have a constitution with a Bill of Rights to explicitly put our rights out of the reach of of votes.

I want to live in a society where I walk down the street knowing that somebody isn't carrying a firearm and decide that they've had enough of life and want to off people because they've had a bad day. And that is a problem in the US. Do other nations have such people? Sure. But nowhere to the extent of the US. This link about sums it up for me....

Well, its just OBVIOUS from the violent crime rate in these disarmed societies of yours, why you feel this way. OBVIOUSLY if you allowed your folks the kind of access to firearms that Americans enjoy, your sense of entitlement to violence (with guns added) would most certainly result in a blood bath rivalling every lurid Wild West Bloodbath scenario gun prohibitionists predict (but oddly never actually occur).

You make the mistake of equating the lethal quality (gun-death tautology) of American violence with more violence; we don't tolerate violence here as well as you might think... that's why starting it up it is more likely to lead to a lethal end. I might argue that we take violence far more seriously than these so-called "developed" nations that are so often used as comparisons. Punching the next guy for some kind of entertainment, or because he's wearing the colors of a rival's fancy kickball team just doesn't fly here. And those who believe they are so entitled, are often the stronger and more aggressive amongst us--guns remove ALL of their advantages over the weak. I'm very good with that arrangement.

You see, it's the romanticised notion of violence--INCLUDING the romanticised notions of those who think some beatings are just an expression of playfulness--that is problematic. Disarming the victim pool for those sociopaths is both intellectually and morally invalid.

Yeah. My point stands: "Gun crime"...the rhetorical tautology that exposes anti-rights advocates for the callous human shit-birds that they are.

 

[LOki]

If your strawman was actually made of straw, it would have all the benefits of being made of straw.

No strawman here. Now move along.

Good to see you're still up and around Loki. Thought you were really sick. Or maybe that was somebody else.....

That was 100% straw-man.