Socialism and the purpose of government

[Hum Dinger]

View attachment 259049

If you use U.S. dollars then you are consenting to pay taxes.

Otherwise you are free not to accept or offer U.S. dollars in your transactions.

 

[bripat9643]

The debate over whether we should have more, or less, socialism in US government is largely a debate over the purpose of government. Socialists "believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically". That might sound relatively innocuous. But it's a radical claim, one we should consider seriously before indulging a more socialistic government.

The libertarian roots of the United States contradict this belief. In the US, neither society, nor the economy, is run democratically. Each is run collaboratively, voluntarily, by the individuals who make up society. Government merely serves as a "referee". Socialists want government to be the "coach".

The Purpose of our Federal Government:

"in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity"

Limited socialism can be justified as a method of establishing economic Justice, and promoting the general welfare. It can also be justified as securing Liberty, since capitalism leads to defacto slavery.

Any other dumb questions?

When you put a qualifier in front of the word "justice," it changes the meaning to "injustice."

Note, the Founding Fathers said "justice," not "economic justice."

The rest of your post is even more absurd.

'Justice' is a very general word. There is no reason to believe that it should be limited to just one category of Justice.

Economic justice is just one of many categories of justice that should be protected by the federal government.

Are you against economic justice?

No, there really is only one honest definition of justice. So-called "economic justice" is taking from 'A' to give to 'B.' In other words, it's injustice.

 

[bripat9643]

View attachment 259049

If you use U.S. dollars then you are consenting to pay taxes.

Otherwise you are free not to accept or offer U.S. dollars in your transactions.

Horseshit. The government forces you to use its phony money. It has outlawed all the other choices.

 

[Oddball]

If I choose to stay, then some thugs will use guns to take my property. That isn't voluntary. You're arguing that limiting my choices to the two you want to impose on me means it's voluntary. That's the same choice mugger gives you, exactly. Voluntary is where you can choose to leave and take your wallet with you. Only a colossal dumbass would fail to understand that.

Well.....

 

[Harpy Eagle]

And, nobody will be forcing you to stay here when we put down this 80+ year communist revolution and 150+ year usurpation of power over state sovereignty.

That is the weakest argument you have mead.

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Why do you assume I am against such a thing?

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Economic justice is just one of many categories of justice that should be protected by the federal government.

Are you against economic justice?

Economic justice SHOULD mean that the earner gets to keep what he earns.

Any other meaning associated with said justice is nothing more than theft.

.

 

[dblack]

So, what you are really arguing is that we should be happy with what we have, and never try to improve it? Just accept the shit we eat or go eat shit elsewhere because America's shit doesn't taste as bad?

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No, what I am arguing is that shit is not as bad as you all want to make it out to be.

But in reality, what are any of you doing about it other than bitching on an internet forum?

No, you're openly embracing authoritarian slogans: "Love it or leave it". "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear". "If you don't want to do what we command, you are 'free' to leave". Fuck you. You leave.

 

[bripat9643]

This perspective, when offered up as an excuse or authoritarian government, makes as much sense as telling the victim of a mugging that their decision to hand over their wallet was entirely voluntary.

I went over this with someone else, if you choose to leave, nobody will stop you. nobody will give a rats ass.

That is the difference between choosing to be a resident of the country and a mugging

You are still wrong.

He's right, and you're a thug.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

No, you're openly embracing authoritarian slogans: "Love it or leave it". "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear". "If you don't want to do what we command, you are 'free' to leave". Fuck you. You leave.

I am not the one whining like a 12 year old on an internet forum.

 

[Oddball]

View attachment 259049

If you use U.S. dollars then you are consenting to pay taxes.

Otherwise you are free not to accept or offer U.S. dollars in your transactions.

Legal tender laws force me to accept FRNs, dunce...You're way too economically and politically illiterate to even participate here.

 

[Hum Dinger]

That's the cynic's view, and I get where you're coming from. But what is the justification for it? What makes it a "necessary" evil? What should society empower government to do? Should "both society and the economy be run democratically"?

Nothing makes government necessary. It was imposed on us by outsiders to enslave us. No one voluntary adopted government.

Gov't is indeed necessary, that is why every society, no matter where or when, established a gov't to govern itself. It is human nature. The first thing that every committee, club, church, etc., does is establishes a leader and rules.

Wrong. Government has always been imposed on society externally. The claim that every society needs government is like saying every dog needs fleas.

If you don't believe it, then consider the Roman Empire. Rome imposed its authority on every society in the civilized world. The government these people lived under was from an alien source. If you claim they had a government before Rome took over, that wasn't true of most of Western Europe. Furthermore, if they did have government before Roman rule, it was also imposed from an external source. You can go all the way back to ancient Sumer and observe that wave after wave Nomadic tribes invaded lowland farmers and settled in among their victims. That's how government came into existence, through conquest.

When colonists first settled the US Wild West they established laws to rule themselves and judges and sheriffs to enforce them. If you wanted to keep your land or cattle from being taken by others you needed the protection only a gov't could provide.

They already had government. All they brought it with them. The Indians lived there for thousands of years with no formal government. They had no means of enforcing laws other than social pressure.

There were various forms of government throughout native American civilizations.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Why do you assume I am against such a thing?

That's not the point.

The point is that instead of making an argument for an all-powerful central government, you are simply telling us to accept the shit we are given and never try an improve it. Or, that's how it is coming off. Either way, it adds nothing to this discussion.

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[Harpy Eagle]

A question for all the anti-government folks in this thread.

Other than doing a lot of bitching and name calling on an internet forum...what are you doing about your complaints?

what actions have you taken to rectify the situation?

 

[bripat9643]

And, nobody will be forcing you to stay here when we put down this 80+ year communist revolution and 150+ year usurpation of power over state sovereignty.

That is the weakest argument you have mead.

.

Why do you assume I am against such a thing?

You've been supporting all day today.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Why do you assume I am against such a thing?

That's not the point.

The point is that instead of making an argument for an all-powerful central government, you are simply telling us to accept the shit we are given and never try an improve it. Or, that's how it is coming off. Either way, it adds nothing to this discussion.

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I am not telling you to accept it or leave, I am pointing out that nobody is forcing you to stay. There is no authority keeping you here, you freely choose to stay here.

You cannot claim you are forced to do things when you do have an option you choose not to take advantage of.

 

[bripat9643]

A question for all the anti-government folks in this thread.

Other than doing a lot of bitching and name calling on an internet forum...what are you doing about your complaints?

what actions have you taken to rectify the situation?

What the fuck are you doing in this forum if you aren't interested in changing anything in this country? About the only thing you do is defend the status quo.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

And, nobody will be forcing you to stay here when we put down this 80+ year communist revolution and 150+ year usurpation of power over state sovereignty.

That is the weakest argument you have mead.

.

Why do you assume I am against such a thing?

You've been supporting all day today.

liar

 

[bripat9643]

Why do you assume I am against such a thing?

That's not the point.

The point is that instead of making an argument for an all-powerful central government, you are simply telling us to accept the shit we are given and never try an improve it. Or, that's how it is coming off. Either way, it adds nothing to this discussion.

.

I am not telling you to accept it or leave, I am pointing out that nobody is forcing you to stay. There is no authority keeping you here, you freely choose to stay here.

You cannot claim you are forced to do things when you do have an option you choose not to take advantage of.

They are forcing me to follow their rules and pay their taxes if I stay. Are you telling us that isn't using force? What you are saying is that being limited to one thing that an external force imposes on you is free choice. You have to be a fucking moron to accept that.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

A question for all the anti-government folks in this thread.

Other than doing a lot of bitching and name calling on an internet forum...what are you doing about your complaints?

what actions have you taken to rectify the situation?

What the fuck are you doing in this forum if you aren't interested in changing anything in this country? About the only thing you do is defend the status quo.

It is good entertainment and I get to hear ideas and thoughts I would not otherwise see as most people do not talk about these things in public.

Why do you think bitching on an internet forum will change anything?

You vote for one of the established parties, but think coming on here and bitching will change things?

 

[bripat9643]

And, nobody will be forcing you to stay here when we put down this 80+ year communist revolution and 150+ year usurpation of power over state sovereignty.

That is the weakest argument you have mead.

.

Why do you assume I am against such a thing?

You've been supporting all day today.

liar

America: love it or leave it.

That's you.