Sooo, ghetto kids and Liberal wackos will storm the steps of D.C. on Saturday..huh?

[2aguy]

Then how about allowing staff to be armed so they can shoot the killers like they did in Maryland?

There is a bit of a problem with your post, me boy. It lacks truth.
This was not a mass shooting, but a targeted shooting by a nut case with a PISTOL.
Second, the person who shot and killed the shooter was not part of the school staff, but rather a County Sherif Deputy.
So, you had a pistol wielding shooter, against a pistol wielding sherif deputy. No assault rifle was involved, and no intent was made by the shooter to kill a lot of people.
So, while it is a good outcome, and a good plan for saving lives, it has little to do with a typical mass shooting, me boy. And has absolutely nothing to do with handling mass shootings with an assault rifle involved. And absolutely nothing to do with arming the school staff.

No, all it lacks for you to like it is multiple murders. The kid was shot and killed by a person in the school with a gun. Don't twist it around with your gun hating liberal bullshit!

Really, me con troll. There is no similarity between the Maryland shooting, where a person came in to shoot a person, and did so. And was then shot an killed by a deputy sherif. And, say, the Florida school experience.
But the difference matters. Marryland was NOT by definition a mass shooting. This guy did not have a 30 shot ar15. Just a pistol. So, if you talk to experts relative to engagements with shooters with assault weapons, they will all tell you that a trained person with a pistol will likely die. And a teacher with a pistol will almost certainly die.
If we could have simple one on ones like in Maryland, then it would be different. But the norm is Florida, Las Vegas, various churches, and schools. Where the shooter has an AR and lots of magazines. So, there you go, me boy. Sorry, but you have a simple mind and tried to simplify a complex situation so your simple mind, like yours, could understand it.

Wow....you really don't know what you are talking about....

the worst mass shooting in U.S. history was Virginia Tech...the shooter killed 32 students with 2 pistols.....

And no....trained experts will not tell you that you will die if you fight an AR-15 with a pistol.....you have no idea what you are talking about....especially inside a building where the rifle can't exploit long distances...

You don't have any idea what you are talking about...

The truth......and the numbers...

Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston church shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 9 dead)
26 dead in shooting at church in Sutherland Springs, Texas (26 dead)

vs.

Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)
Psychiatrist v. patient with gun, in gun free zone

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)




Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Texas church...NRA instructor with AR-15 rifle (saved 26 + lives)

hospital shooting, Psychiatrist brought gun into gun free zone, ( 1 dead) stopped shooter.

So here is the actuality, me boy. From a professional who has spent years training other professionals on how to respond to an active shooter scenario. This, me boy, is in fact the truth. See if you can read what he has to say. Because this is no chicken hawk. This is a person who knows of what he speaks:

"Wayne LaPierre, the head of the National Rifle Association (NRA), has famously claimed that “the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.”
Much of today’s opposition to stronger gun safety regulations rests on the gun lobby’s Hobbesian vision of self-sufficient, heavily-armed citizens standing up to vicious thugs. This Die Hard argument is constantly parroted by politicians and conservative pundits. But the statistical reality is that for every justifiable homicide in the United States—for every lethal shooting in defense of life or property—guns are used to commit 34 murders and 78 suicides, and are the cause of two accidental deaths, according to an analysis of FBI data by The Washington Post.

LaPierre, a career lobbyist, has no clue what it’s like to use a firearm in anger. But The Nation spoke to several people who do—including combat veterans and former law enforcement officers—and who believe that the NRA’s heroic gunslinger mythology is a dangerous fantasy that bears little resemblance to reality. Retired Army Sergeant Rafael Noboa y Rivera, who led a combat team in Iraq, says that most soldiers only function effectively after they’ve been exposed to fire a number a times. “I think there’s this fantasy world of gunplay in the movies, but it doesn’t really happen that way,” he says. “When I heard gunfire [in Iraq], I didn’t immediately pick up my rifle and react. I first tried to ascertain where the shooting was coming from, where I was in relation to the gunfire and how far away it was. I think most untrained people are either going to freeze up, or just whip out their gun and start firing in that circumstance,” Noboa said. “I think they would absolutely panic.”

Those interviewed for this article agreed that the key distinction isn’t between “good guys” and “bad guys,” because intentions are less important than the rigorous—and continuous—training that it takes to effectively handle firearms in high-stress situations.

Dr. Pete Blair, an associate professor of criminal justice at Texas State University and director of the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center (ALERRT), has studied mass shooting incidents and trains law enforcement personnel to respond to active-shooter situations. The cops who go through his course conduct live-fire exercises using real firearms which are re-chambered to fire “soap rounds” that leave only welts when they hit.
But these courses offer only a shadow of what’s required, says David Chipman, a former agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). Chipman, who spent several years on the agency’s SWAT team, says, “Training for a potentially deadly encounter meant, at a minimum, qualifying four times a year throughout my 25-year career. And this wasn’t just shooting paper—it meant doing extensive tactical exercises. And when I was on the SWAT team we had to undergo monthly tactical training.”

Tactical officers typically receive training in “judgmental shooting,” which includes knowing when it’s prudent to hold their fire, and “blue-on-blue awareness,” which drills into them the importance of considering whether other cops are present, including officers who aren’t in uniform. They’re trained to overcome tunnel vision by looking not only at their target but also maintaining an awareness of who or what is behind it.

“The notion that you have a seal of approval just because you’re not a criminal—that you walk into a gun store and you’re ready for game-day—is ridiculous,” says Chipman.

A case in Texas two weeks ago highlights the risks of civilians intervening in chaotic situations. Police saythat as two carjackers struggled with the owner of a car at a gas station in northeast Houston, a witness decided to take action into his own hands. He fired several shots, but missed the perpetrators and shot the owner of the car in the head. He then picked up his shell casings and fled the scene. Police are still looking for the shooter.

The potential for that kind of outcome is why most police agencies strongly recommend that concealed carry holders only use their weapons as an absolute last resort, and not intervene in robberies or other crimes in which they’re not directly involved. David Chipman notes that even police officers are told that if they encounter a crime in progress while off-duty, “maybe the best thing to do at that time is not to take lethal action but instead try to be the best witness you can be.”

Not pulling a weapon is often the wisest course of action in active-shooter situations. While a number of conservatives declared that Oregon’s Umpqua Community College, the scene of a mass shooting last week, was a gun-free zone, the truth is that several concealed carry holders were present, and they wisely decided to leave their guns holstered. Veteran John Parker later explained to MSNBC, “We could have opened ourselves up to be potential targets ourselves, and not knowing where SWAT was… if we had our guns ready to shoot, they could think that we were bad guys.”

Mike Huckabee’s words, “sitting duck zones.” But Barker later admitted that his methodology entailed analyzing “10 shootings I found listed on some timeline somewhere.… I honestly don’t even remember where.” And Pete Blair from Texas State notes that by definition, shootings with fewer than four casualties aren’t “mass shootings,” and incidents with as many as 18 casualties are exceedingly rare. Blair acknowledges the possibility that shooters may be more likely to seek out places they see as soft targets, like gun-free zones, but adds, “Trying to prove that is difficult to do.”

a study for the FBI that looked at 185 mass shooting events over a 13-year period. It found that while around one-in-five were stopped by civilians before police arrived, in only one case was it done by a typical “good guy with a gun” (professionals—an off-duty cop and an armed security guard—used their guns to stop two others). In most cases Blair and his colleague studied, civilians ended a rampage by tackling the assailant.

None of this has prevented the gun manufacturers’ lobby from insisting that more guns make a society safer. And many Americans have come to believe it. According to thePew Research Center, the share of gun owners who cite “protection” as “the main reason they own a gun” almost doubled between 1999 and 2013, from 26 percent to 48 percent.

But a large body of empirical evidence finds the opposite to be true. Last year, epidemiologists at the University of California, San Francisco, conducted an extensive analysis of data from 16 previous peer-reviewed studies, and found that having access to a firearm makes a person almost twice as likely to become the victim of a homicide and three times more likely to commit suicide. Previous research has shown thatcountries with higher rates of gun ownership also have higher rates of gun deaths andstates with more guns have higher homicide rates. (The gun lobby’s side of the scholarly debate rests largely on the discredited and allegedly fraudulent work of economist John Lott.)

Rafael Noboa y Rivera scoffed at the idea, adding that he’s personally wary of “untrained yahoos” who “think they’re Wyatt Earp.”

“Despite what we see on TV, the presence of a firearm is a greater risk, especially in the hands of an untrained person,” says David Chipman, the former ATF agent. “Someone can always say, ‘If your mother is being raped by 5 people, wouldn’t you want her to have a gun?’ Well, OK, if you put it that way, I’d say yes, but that’s not a likely scenario. The question is: If you see someone running out of a gas station with a gun in their hand, do you want an untrained person jumping out and opening fire. For me, the answer is clearly ‘no.’”
Tactical Experts Destroy the NRA’s Heroic Gunslinger Fantasy

And the truth......showing you wasted a lot of time typing all that crap...

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...
-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

 

[Lakhota]

South L.A. Teen: ‘I Learned To Duck From Bullets Before I Learned How To Read’

These kids are awesome!

 

[rshermn]

There is a bit of a problem with your post, me boy. It lacks truth.
This was not a mass shooting, but a targeted shooting by a nut case with a PISTOL.
Second, the person who shot and killed the shooter was not part of the school staff, but rather a County Sherif Deputy.
So, you had a pistol wielding shooter, against a pistol wielding sherif deputy. No assault rifle was involved, and no intent was made by the shooter to kill a lot of people.
So, while it is a good outcome, and a good plan for saving lives, it has little to do with a typical mass shooting, me boy. And has absolutely nothing to do with handling mass shootings with an assault rifle involved. And absolutely nothing to do with arming the school staff.

No, all it lacks for you to like it is multiple murders. The kid was shot and killed by a person in the school with a gun. Don't twist it around with your gun hating liberal bullshit!

Really, me con troll. There is no similarity between the Maryland shooting, where a person came in to shoot a person, and did so. And was then shot an killed by a deputy sherif. And, say, the Florida school experience.
But the difference matters. Marryland was NOT by definition a mass shooting. This guy did not have a 30 shot ar15. Just a pistol. So, if you talk to experts relative to engagements with shooters with assault weapons, they will all tell you that a trained person with a pistol will likely die. And a teacher with a pistol will almost certainly die.
If we could have simple one on ones like in Maryland, then it would be different. But the norm is Florida, Las Vegas, various churches, and schools. Where the shooter has an AR and lots of magazines. So, there you go, me boy. Sorry, but you have a simple mind and tried to simplify a complex situation so your simple mind, like yours, could understand it.

Wow....you really don't know what you are talking about....

the worst mass shooting in U.S. history was Virginia Tech...the shooter killed 32 students with 2 pistols.....

And no....trained experts will not tell you that you will die if you fight an AR-15 with a pistol.....you have no idea what you are talking about....especially inside a building where the rifle can't exploit long distances...

You don't have any idea what you are talking about...

The truth......and the numbers...

Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston church shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 9 dead)
26 dead in shooting at church in Sutherland Springs, Texas (26 dead)

vs.

Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)
Psychiatrist v. patient with gun, in gun free zone

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)




Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Texas church...NRA instructor with AR-15 rifle (saved 26 + lives)

hospital shooting, Psychiatrist brought gun into gun free zone, ( 1 dead) stopped shooter.

So here is the actuality, me boy. From a professional who has spent years training other professionals on how to respond to an active shooter scenario. This, me boy, is in fact the truth. See if you can read what he has to say. Because this is no chicken hawk. This is a person who knows of what he speaks:

"Wayne LaPierre, the head of the National Rifle Association (NRA), has famously claimed that “the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.”
Much of today’s opposition to stronger gun safety regulations rests on the gun lobby’s Hobbesian vision of self-sufficient, heavily-armed citizens standing up to vicious thugs. This Die Hard argument is constantly parroted by politicians and conservative pundits. But the statistical reality is that for every justifiable homicide in the United States—for every lethal shooting in defense of life or property—guns are used to commit 34 murders and 78 suicides, and are the cause of two accidental deaths, according to an analysis of FBI data by The Washington Post.

LaPierre, a career lobbyist, has no clue what it’s like to use a firearm in anger. But The Nation spoke to several people who do—including combat veterans and former law enforcement officers—and who believe that the NRA’s heroic gunslinger mythology is a dangerous fantasy that bears little resemblance to reality. Retired Army Sergeant Rafael Noboa y Rivera, who led a combat team in Iraq, says that most soldiers only function effectively after they’ve been exposed to fire a number a times. “I think there’s this fantasy world of gunplay in the movies, but it doesn’t really happen that way,” he says. “When I heard gunfire [in Iraq], I didn’t immediately pick up my rifle and react. I first tried to ascertain where the shooting was coming from, where I was in relation to the gunfire and how far away it was. I think most untrained people are either going to freeze up, or just whip out their gun and start firing in that circumstance,” Noboa said. “I think they would absolutely panic.”

Those interviewed for this article agreed that the key distinction isn’t between “good guys” and “bad guys,” because intentions are less important than the rigorous—and continuous—training that it takes to effectively handle firearms in high-stress situations.

Dr. Pete Blair, an associate professor of criminal justice at Texas State University and director of the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center (ALERRT), has studied mass shooting incidents and trains law enforcement personnel to respond to active-shooter situations. The cops who go through his course conduct live-fire exercises using real firearms which are re-chambered to fire “soap rounds” that leave only welts when they hit.
But these courses offer only a shadow of what’s required, says David Chipman, a former agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). Chipman, who spent several years on the agency’s SWAT team, says, “Training for a potentially deadly encounter meant, at a minimum, qualifying four times a year throughout my 25-year career. And this wasn’t just shooting paper—it meant doing extensive tactical exercises. And when I was on the SWAT team we had to undergo monthly tactical training.”

Tactical officers typically receive training in “judgmental shooting,” which includes knowing when it’s prudent to hold their fire, and “blue-on-blue awareness,” which drills into them the importance of considering whether other cops are present, including officers who aren’t in uniform. They’re trained to overcome tunnel vision by looking not only at their target but also maintaining an awareness of who or what is behind it.

“The notion that you have a seal of approval just because you’re not a criminal—that you walk into a gun store and you’re ready for game-day—is ridiculous,” says Chipman.

A case in Texas two weeks ago highlights the risks of civilians intervening in chaotic situations. Police saythat as two carjackers struggled with the owner of a car at a gas station in northeast Houston, a witness decided to take action into his own hands. He fired several shots, but missed the perpetrators and shot the owner of the car in the head. He then picked up his shell casings and fled the scene. Police are still looking for the shooter.

The potential for that kind of outcome is why most police agencies strongly recommend that concealed carry holders only use their weapons as an absolute last resort, and not intervene in robberies or other crimes in which they’re not directly involved. David Chipman notes that even police officers are told that if they encounter a crime in progress while off-duty, “maybe the best thing to do at that time is not to take lethal action but instead try to be the best witness you can be.”

Not pulling a weapon is often the wisest course of action in active-shooter situations. While a number of conservatives declared that Oregon’s Umpqua Community College, the scene of a mass shooting last week, was a gun-free zone, the truth is that several concealed carry holders were present, and they wisely decided to leave their guns holstered. Veteran John Parker later explained to MSNBC, “We could have opened ourselves up to be potential targets ourselves, and not knowing where SWAT was… if we had our guns ready to shoot, they could think that we were bad guys.”

Mike Huckabee’s words, “sitting duck zones.” But Barker later admitted that his methodology entailed analyzing “10 shootings I found listed on some timeline somewhere.… I honestly don’t even remember where.” And Pete Blair from Texas State notes that by definition, shootings with fewer than four casualties aren’t “mass shootings,” and incidents with as many as 18 casualties are exceedingly rare. Blair acknowledges the possibility that shooters may be more likely to seek out places they see as soft targets, like gun-free zones, but adds, “Trying to prove that is difficult to do.”

a study for the FBI that looked at 185 mass shooting events over a 13-year period. It found that while around one-in-five were stopped by civilians before police arrived, in only one case was it done by a typical “good guy with a gun” (professionals—an off-duty cop and an armed security guard—used their guns to stop two others). In most cases Blair and his colleague studied, civilians ended a rampage by tackling the assailant.

None of this has prevented the gun manufacturers’ lobby from insisting that more guns make a society safer. And many Americans have come to believe it. According to thePew Research Center, the share of gun owners who cite “protection” as “the main reason they own a gun” almost doubled between 1999 and 2013, from 26 percent to 48 percent.

But a large body of empirical evidence finds the opposite to be true. Last year, epidemiologists at the University of California, San Francisco, conducted an extensive analysis of data from 16 previous peer-reviewed studies, and found that having access to a firearm makes a person almost twice as likely to become the victim of a homicide and three times more likely to commit suicide. Previous research has shown thatcountries with higher rates of gun ownership also have higher rates of gun deaths andstates with more guns have higher homicide rates. (The gun lobby’s side of the scholarly debate rests largely on the discredited and allegedly fraudulent work of economist John Lott.)

Rafael Noboa y Rivera scoffed at the idea, adding that he’s personally wary of “untrained yahoos” who “think they’re Wyatt Earp.”

“Despite what we see on TV, the presence of a firearm is a greater risk, especially in the hands of an untrained person,” says David Chipman, the former ATF agent. “Someone can always say, ‘If your mother is being raped by 5 people, wouldn’t you want her to have a gun?’ Well, OK, if you put it that way, I’d say yes, but that’s not a likely scenario. The question is: If you see someone running out of a gas station with a gun in their hand, do you want an untrained person jumping out and opening fire. For me, the answer is clearly ‘no.’”
Tactical Experts Destroy the NRA’s Heroic Gunslinger Fantasy

Excellent cut and paste. Proves nothing when a bunch of fascist get together and and circle jerk about crime and evil guns. lol.

So, you do not believe actual experienced trainers of those that must face armed shooters. Because you think they are Fascists. So, got it. You are brain dead.
To those with actual working minds, this is far from the only article out there written by actual experienced trainers of professionals facing mass shooters. All say about the same thing. Now, while con trolls like the nra version, what those trainers call the gunslinger theory, all say it is stupid. Does not apply in the real world. But as an NRA troll, and a totally inexperienced nut case, there is no reason to believe you. Just like me, you need a source that is experienced. Which, of course, you do not bother with. Because you are afraid and just want to believe some one will pull a gun and save your ass. Luckily for you, it is very unlikely you will ever need help.

 

[2aguy]

Then how about allowing staff to be armed so they can shoot the killers like they did in Maryland?

There is a bit of a problem with your post, me boy. It lacks truth.
This was not a mass shooting, but a targeted shooting by a nut case with a PISTOL.
Second, the person who shot and killed the shooter was not part of the school staff, but rather a County Sherif Deputy.
So, you had a pistol wielding shooter, against a pistol wielding sherif deputy. No assault rifle was involved, and no intent was made by the shooter to kill a lot of people.
So, while it is a good outcome, and a good plan for saving lives, it has little to do with a typical mass shooting, me boy. And has absolutely nothing to do with handling mass shootings with an assault rifle involved. And absolutely nothing to do with arming the school staff.

No, all it lacks for you to like it is multiple murders. The kid was shot and killed by a person in the school with a gun. Don't twist it around with your gun hating liberal bullshit!

Really, me con troll. There is no similarity between the Maryland shooting, where a person came in to shoot a person, and did so. And was then shot an killed by a deputy sherif. And, say, the Florida school experience.
But the difference matters. Marryland was NOT by definition a mass shooting. This guy did not have a 30 shot ar15. Just a pistol. So, if you talk to experts relative to engagements with shooters with assault weapons, they will all tell you that a trained person with a pistol will likely die. And a teacher with a pistol will almost certainly die.
If we could have simple one on ones like in Maryland, then it would be different. But the norm is Florida, Las Vegas, various churches, and schools. Where the shooter has an AR and lots of magazines. So, there you go, me boy. Sorry, but you have a simple mind and tried to simplify a complex situation so your simple mind, like yours, could understand it.

Wow....you really don't know what you are talking about....

the worst mass shooting in U.S. history was Virginia Tech...the shooter killed 32 students with 2 pistols.....

And no....trained experts will not tell you that you will die if you fight an AR-15 with a pistol.....you have no idea what you are talking about....especially inside a building where the rifle can't exploit long distances...

You don't have any idea what you are talking about...

The truth......and the numbers...

Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston church shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 9 dead)
26 dead in shooting at church in Sutherland Springs, Texas (26 dead)

vs.

Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)
Psychiatrist v. patient with gun, in gun free zone

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)




Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Texas church...NRA instructor with AR-15 rifle (saved 26 + lives)

hospital shooting, Psychiatrist brought gun into gun free zone, ( 1 dead) stopped shooter.

So here is the actuality, me boy. From a professional who has spent years training other professionals on how to respond to an active shooter scenario. This, me boy, is in fact the truth. See if you can read what he has to say. Because this is no chicken hawk. This is a person who knows of what he speaks:

"Wayne LaPierre, the head of the National Rifle Association (NRA), has famously claimed that “the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.”
Much of today’s opposition to stronger gun safety regulations rests on the gun lobby’s Hobbesian vision of self-sufficient, heavily-armed citizens standing up to vicious thugs. This Die Hard argument is constantly parroted by politicians and conservative pundits. But the statistical reality is that for every justifiable homicide in the United States—for every lethal shooting in defense of life or property—guns are used to commit 34 murders and 78 suicides, and are the cause of two accidental deaths, according to an analysis of FBI data by The Washington Post.

LaPierre, a career lobbyist, has no clue what it’s like to use a firearm in anger. But The Nation spoke to several people who do—including combat veterans and former law enforcement officers—and who believe that the NRA’s heroic gunslinger mythology is a dangerous fantasy that bears little resemblance to reality. Retired Army Sergeant Rafael Noboa y Rivera, who led a combat team in Iraq, says that most soldiers only function effectively after they’ve been exposed to fire a number a times. “I think there’s this fantasy world of gunplay in the movies, but it doesn’t really happen that way,” he says. “When I heard gunfire [in Iraq], I didn’t immediately pick up my rifle and react. I first tried to ascertain where the shooting was coming from, where I was in relation to the gunfire and how far away it was. I think most untrained people are either going to freeze up, or just whip out their gun and start firing in that circumstance,” Noboa said. “I think they would absolutely panic.”

Those interviewed for this article agreed that the key distinction isn’t between “good guys” and “bad guys,” because intentions are less important than the rigorous—and continuous—training that it takes to effectively handle firearms in high-stress situations.

Dr. Pete Blair, an associate professor of criminal justice at Texas State University and director of the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center (ALERRT), has studied mass shooting incidents and trains law enforcement personnel to respond to active-shooter situations. The cops who go through his course conduct live-fire exercises using real firearms which are re-chambered to fire “soap rounds” that leave only welts when they hit.
But these courses offer only a shadow of what’s required, says David Chipman, a former agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). Chipman, who spent several years on the agency’s SWAT team, says, “Training for a potentially deadly encounter meant, at a minimum, qualifying four times a year throughout my 25-year career. And this wasn’t just shooting paper—it meant doing extensive tactical exercises. And when I was on the SWAT team we had to undergo monthly tactical training.”

Tactical officers typically receive training in “judgmental shooting,” which includes knowing when it’s prudent to hold their fire, and “blue-on-blue awareness,” which drills into them the importance of considering whether other cops are present, including officers who aren’t in uniform. They’re trained to overcome tunnel vision by looking not only at their target but also maintaining an awareness of who or what is behind it.

“The notion that you have a seal of approval just because you’re not a criminal—that you walk into a gun store and you’re ready for game-day—is ridiculous,” says Chipman.

A case in Texas two weeks ago highlights the risks of civilians intervening in chaotic situations. Police saythat as two carjackers struggled with the owner of a car at a gas station in northeast Houston, a witness decided to take action into his own hands. He fired several shots, but missed the perpetrators and shot the owner of the car in the head. He then picked up his shell casings and fled the scene. Police are still looking for the shooter.

The potential for that kind of outcome is why most police agencies strongly recommend that concealed carry holders only use their weapons as an absolute last resort, and not intervene in robberies or other crimes in which they’re not directly involved. David Chipman notes that even police officers are told that if they encounter a crime in progress while off-duty, “maybe the best thing to do at that time is not to take lethal action but instead try to be the best witness you can be.”

Not pulling a weapon is often the wisest course of action in active-shooter situations. While a number of conservatives declared that Oregon’s Umpqua Community College, the scene of a mass shooting last week, was a gun-free zone, the truth is that several concealed carry holders were present, and they wisely decided to leave their guns holstered. Veteran John Parker later explained to MSNBC, “We could have opened ourselves up to be potential targets ourselves, and not knowing where SWAT was… if we had our guns ready to shoot, they could think that we were bad guys.”

Mike Huckabee’s words, “sitting duck zones.” But Barker later admitted that his methodology entailed analyzing “10 shootings I found listed on some timeline somewhere.… I honestly don’t even remember where.” And Pete Blair from Texas State notes that by definition, shootings with fewer than four casualties aren’t “mass shootings,” and incidents with as many as 18 casualties are exceedingly rare. Blair acknowledges the possibility that shooters may be more likely to seek out places they see as soft targets, like gun-free zones, but adds, “Trying to prove that is difficult to do.”

a study for the FBI that looked at 185 mass shooting events over a 13-year period. It found that while around one-in-five were stopped by civilians before police arrived, in only one case was it done by a typical “good guy with a gun” (professionals—an off-duty cop and an armed security guard—used their guns to stop two others). In most cases Blair and his colleague studied, civilians ended a rampage by tackling the assailant.

None of this has prevented the gun manufacturers’ lobby from insisting that more guns make a society safer. And many Americans have come to believe it. According to thePew Research Center, the share of gun owners who cite “protection” as “the main reason they own a gun” almost doubled between 1999 and 2013, from 26 percent to 48 percent.

But a large body of empirical evidence finds the opposite to be true. Last year, epidemiologists at the University of California, San Francisco, conducted an extensive analysis of data from 16 previous peer-reviewed studies, and found that having access to a firearm makes a person almost twice as likely to become the victim of a homicide and three times more likely to commit suicide. Previous research has shown thatcountries with higher rates of gun ownership also have higher rates of gun deaths andstates with more guns have higher homicide rates. (The gun lobby’s side of the scholarly debate rests largely on the discredited and allegedly fraudulent work of economist John Lott.)

Rafael Noboa y Rivera scoffed at the idea, adding that he’s personally wary of “untrained yahoos” who “think they’re Wyatt Earp.”

“Despite what we see on TV, the presence of a firearm is a greater risk, especially in the hands of an untrained person,” says David Chipman, the former ATF agent. “Someone can always say, ‘If your mother is being raped by 5 people, wouldn’t you want her to have a gun?’ Well, OK, if you put it that way, I’d say yes, but that’s not a likely scenario. The question is: If you see someone running out of a gas station with a gun in their hand, do you want an untrained person jumping out and opening fire. For me, the answer is clearly ‘no.’”
Tactical Experts Destroy the NRA’s Heroic Gunslinger Fantasy

And this sort of stupidity shows how stupid you guys are..


a study for the FBI that looked at 185 mass shooting events over a 13-year period. It found that while around one-in-five were stopped by civilians before police arrived, in only one case was it done by a typical “good guy with a gun” (professionals—an off-duty cop and an armed security guard—used their guns to stop two others). In most cases Blair and his colleague studied, civilians ended a rampage by tackling the assailant.

Almost every square inch of public space has been turned into democrat gun free zones, dipshit....which means that the majority of cases where people are targeted by mass shooters are gun free zones because mass shooters pick gun free zones to attack.....law abiding gun owners can't carry their weapons into democrat gun free zones.....

But, as my links show and as others have shown, when civilians have their guns with them...they can and do stop mass shooters..since using a gun is not rocket science...and you don't have to be a Navy Seal to use a gun against another shooter...

Actual mass shooter events with civilians with little to no training show that those civilians with their legal guns can and do stop mass shooters.......

me boy....

 

[2aguy]

South L.A. Teen: ‘I Learned To Duck From Bullets Before I Learned How To Read’

These kids are awesome!

Yes.......living in a democrats controlled paradise where criminals are let out of jail over and over again, the kid is lucky to be alive....

If democrats would stop lettting violent criminals out of jail, our kids would be safer...

Notice that it is the NRA trying to keep criminals in jail while these California democrats are letting them out....

California Democrats hate the gun, not the gunman – Orange County Register

Now that Democrats have supermajorities in the California state Legislature, they’ve rolled into Sacramento with a zest for lowering the state’s prison population and have interpreted St. Augustine’s words of wisdom to mean, “Hate the gun, not the gunman.”

I say this because, once they finally took a break from preaching about the benefits of stricter gun control, the state Senate voted to loosen sentencing guidelines for criminals convicted of gun crimes.

Currently, California law requires anyone who uses a gun while committing a felony to have their sentence increased by 10 years or more in prison — on top of the normal criminal penalty. If enacted, Senate Bill 620 would eliminate that mandate.

The bill, which passed on a 22-14 party-line vote, with support only from Democrats, now heads to the state Assembly for consideration.

Republicans and the National Rifle Association have vowed to campaign against it.

Why have Democrats suddenly developed a soft spot for criminals convicted of gun crimes? The bill’s author, state Sen. Steve Bradford, D-Gardena, says that he was motivated to write the bill after a 17-year-old riding in a car involved in a drive-by shooting was sentenced to 25 years in prison, even though he claims that he wasn’t the one who pulled the trigger.

and for all those anti-gunners who want to know where criminals get guns....well...this law lowers the prison time for those who give guns to criminals.....

Why is that?

Prop. 57, for example, very deceptively and fundamentally changed the definition of what constitutes a “non-violent” offense.


supplying a firearm to a gang member,

l
felon obtaining a firearm,

discharging a firearm on school grounds

 

[2aguy]

No, all it lacks for you to like it is multiple murders. The kid was shot and killed by a person in the school with a gun. Don't twist it around with your gun hating liberal bullshit!

Really, me con troll. There is no similarity between the Maryland shooting, where a person came in to shoot a person, and did so. And was then shot an killed by a deputy sherif. And, say, the Florida school experience.
But the difference matters. Marryland was NOT by definition a mass shooting. This guy did not have a 30 shot ar15. Just a pistol. So, if you talk to experts relative to engagements with shooters with assault weapons, they will all tell you that a trained person with a pistol will likely die. And a teacher with a pistol will almost certainly die.
If we could have simple one on ones like in Maryland, then it would be different. But the norm is Florida, Las Vegas, various churches, and schools. Where the shooter has an AR and lots of magazines. So, there you go, me boy. Sorry, but you have a simple mind and tried to simplify a complex situation so your simple mind, like yours, could understand it.

Wow....you really don't know what you are talking about....

the worst mass shooting in U.S. history was Virginia Tech...the shooter killed 32 students with 2 pistols.....

And no....trained experts will not tell you that you will die if you fight an AR-15 with a pistol.....you have no idea what you are talking about....especially inside a building where the rifle can't exploit long distances...

You don't have any idea what you are talking about...

The truth......and the numbers...

Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston church shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 9 dead)
26 dead in shooting at church in Sutherland Springs, Texas (26 dead)

vs.

Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)
Psychiatrist v. patient with gun, in gun free zone

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)




Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Texas church...NRA instructor with AR-15 rifle (saved 26 + lives)

hospital shooting, Psychiatrist brought gun into gun free zone, ( 1 dead) stopped shooter.

So here is the actuality, me boy. From a professional who has spent years training other professionals on how to respond to an active shooter scenario. This, me boy, is in fact the truth. See if you can read what he has to say. Because this is no chicken hawk. This is a person who knows of what he speaks:

"Wayne LaPierre, the head of the National Rifle Association (NRA), has famously claimed that “the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.”
Much of today’s opposition to stronger gun safety regulations rests on the gun lobby’s Hobbesian vision of self-sufficient, heavily-armed citizens standing up to vicious thugs. This Die Hard argument is constantly parroted by politicians and conservative pundits. But the statistical reality is that for every justifiable homicide in the United States—for every lethal shooting in defense of life or property—guns are used to commit 34 murders and 78 suicides, and are the cause of two accidental deaths, according to an analysis of FBI data by The Washington Post.

LaPierre, a career lobbyist, has no clue what it’s like to use a firearm in anger. But The Nation spoke to several people who do—including combat veterans and former law enforcement officers—and who believe that the NRA’s heroic gunslinger mythology is a dangerous fantasy that bears little resemblance to reality. Retired Army Sergeant Rafael Noboa y Rivera, who led a combat team in Iraq, says that most soldiers only function effectively after they’ve been exposed to fire a number a times. “I think there’s this fantasy world of gunplay in the movies, but it doesn’t really happen that way,” he says. “When I heard gunfire [in Iraq], I didn’t immediately pick up my rifle and react. I first tried to ascertain where the shooting was coming from, where I was in relation to the gunfire and how far away it was. I think most untrained people are either going to freeze up, or just whip out their gun and start firing in that circumstance,” Noboa said. “I think they would absolutely panic.”

Those interviewed for this article agreed that the key distinction isn’t between “good guys” and “bad guys,” because intentions are less important than the rigorous—and continuous—training that it takes to effectively handle firearms in high-stress situations.

Dr. Pete Blair, an associate professor of criminal justice at Texas State University and director of the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center (ALERRT), has studied mass shooting incidents and trains law enforcement personnel to respond to active-shooter situations. The cops who go through his course conduct live-fire exercises using real firearms which are re-chambered to fire “soap rounds” that leave only welts when they hit.
But these courses offer only a shadow of what’s required, says David Chipman, a former agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). Chipman, who spent several years on the agency’s SWAT team, says, “Training for a potentially deadly encounter meant, at a minimum, qualifying four times a year throughout my 25-year career. And this wasn’t just shooting paper—it meant doing extensive tactical exercises. And when I was on the SWAT team we had to undergo monthly tactical training.”

Tactical officers typically receive training in “judgmental shooting,” which includes knowing when it’s prudent to hold their fire, and “blue-on-blue awareness,” which drills into them the importance of considering whether other cops are present, including officers who aren’t in uniform. They’re trained to overcome tunnel vision by looking not only at their target but also maintaining an awareness of who or what is behind it.

“The notion that you have a seal of approval just because you’re not a criminal—that you walk into a gun store and you’re ready for game-day—is ridiculous,” says Chipman.

A case in Texas two weeks ago highlights the risks of civilians intervening in chaotic situations. Police saythat as two carjackers struggled with the owner of a car at a gas station in northeast Houston, a witness decided to take action into his own hands. He fired several shots, but missed the perpetrators and shot the owner of the car in the head. He then picked up his shell casings and fled the scene. Police are still looking for the shooter.

The potential for that kind of outcome is why most police agencies strongly recommend that concealed carry holders only use their weapons as an absolute last resort, and not intervene in robberies or other crimes in which they’re not directly involved. David Chipman notes that even police officers are told that if they encounter a crime in progress while off-duty, “maybe the best thing to do at that time is not to take lethal action but instead try to be the best witness you can be.”

Not pulling a weapon is often the wisest course of action in active-shooter situations. While a number of conservatives declared that Oregon’s Umpqua Community College, the scene of a mass shooting last week, was a gun-free zone, the truth is that several concealed carry holders were present, and they wisely decided to leave their guns holstered. Veteran John Parker later explained to MSNBC, “We could have opened ourselves up to be potential targets ourselves, and not knowing where SWAT was… if we had our guns ready to shoot, they could think that we were bad guys.”

Mike Huckabee’s words, “sitting duck zones.” But Barker later admitted that his methodology entailed analyzing “10 shootings I found listed on some timeline somewhere.… I honestly don’t even remember where.” And Pete Blair from Texas State notes that by definition, shootings with fewer than four casualties aren’t “mass shootings,” and incidents with as many as 18 casualties are exceedingly rare. Blair acknowledges the possibility that shooters may be more likely to seek out places they see as soft targets, like gun-free zones, but adds, “Trying to prove that is difficult to do.”

a study for the FBI that looked at 185 mass shooting events over a 13-year period. It found that while around one-in-five were stopped by civilians before police arrived, in only one case was it done by a typical “good guy with a gun” (professionals—an off-duty cop and an armed security guard—used their guns to stop two others). In most cases Blair and his colleague studied, civilians ended a rampage by tackling the assailant.

None of this has prevented the gun manufacturers’ lobby from insisting that more guns make a society safer. And many Americans have come to believe it. According to thePew Research Center, the share of gun owners who cite “protection” as “the main reason they own a gun” almost doubled between 1999 and 2013, from 26 percent to 48 percent.

But a large body of empirical evidence finds the opposite to be true. Last year, epidemiologists at the University of California, San Francisco, conducted an extensive analysis of data from 16 previous peer-reviewed studies, and found that having access to a firearm makes a person almost twice as likely to become the victim of a homicide and three times more likely to commit suicide. Previous research has shown thatcountries with higher rates of gun ownership also have higher rates of gun deaths andstates with more guns have higher homicide rates. (The gun lobby’s side of the scholarly debate rests largely on the discredited and allegedly fraudulent work of economist John Lott.)

Rafael Noboa y Rivera scoffed at the idea, adding that he’s personally wary of “untrained yahoos” who “think they’re Wyatt Earp.”

“Despite what we see on TV, the presence of a firearm is a greater risk, especially in the hands of an untrained person,” says David Chipman, the former ATF agent. “Someone can always say, ‘If your mother is being raped by 5 people, wouldn’t you want her to have a gun?’ Well, OK, if you put it that way, I’d say yes, but that’s not a likely scenario. The question is: If you see someone running out of a gas station with a gun in their hand, do you want an untrained person jumping out and opening fire. For me, the answer is clearly ‘no.’”
Tactical Experts Destroy the NRA’s Heroic Gunslinger Fantasy

Excellent cut and paste. Proves nothing when a bunch of fascist get together and and circle jerk about crime and evil guns. lol.

So, you do not believe actual experienced trainers of those that must face armed shooters. Because you think they are Fascists. So, got it. You are brain dead.
To those with actual working minds, this is far from the only article out there written by actual experienced trainers of professionals facing mass shooters. All say about the same thing. Now, while con trolls like the nra version, what those trainers call the gunslinger theory, all say it is stupid. Does not apply in the real world. But as an NRA troll, and a totally inexperienced nut case, there is no reason to believe you. Just like me, you need a source that is experienced. Which, of course, you do not bother with. Because you are afraid and just want to believe some one will pull a gun and save your ass. Luckily for you, it is very unlikely you will ever need help.

Except for the real world mass shooter events where civilians with little to no traingin actually did shoot mass shooters.......

Deputies: Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense

According to deputies, Parangan pulled out a handgun and fired multiple shots at Pastor Terry Howell, who took out his own weapon and fired back, striking Parangan.

Howell was not injured, but Parangan was taken to Osceola Regional Medical Center in critical condition.

Deputies said several church employees witnessed the incident and gave similar statements.

this Psychiatrist was not an off duty cop.....

Penn. psychiatric center shooting intended mass killing: DA

The Pennsylvania patient accused of killing his caseworker in a psychiatric center shooting carried dozens of bullets — and he would have likely continued shooting if a doctor didn’t fire back, officials said.

Richard Plotts, 49, is expected to be charged with murder for allegedly opening fire at Sister Marie Lenahan Wellness Center in Darby Thursday.

After he killed his caseworker, 53-year-old Theresa Hunt, and shot his psychiatrist, Lee Silverman, the wounded doctor fired back, stopping the attack, District Attorney Jack Whelan said in a Friday press conference.

Plotts had 39 more bullets on him. He intended a mass shooting, Whelan said.



This Uber driver is not a cop....

An Uber driver with a concealed handgun prevented a mass shooting in Chicago

A driver with the ride-hailing service Uber put a stop to a potential mass shooting in Chicago over the weekend.

Here's the Chicago Tribune, citing Assistant State's Attorney Barry Quinn:

A group of people had been walking in front of the driver around 11:50 p.m. in the 2900 block of North Milwaukee Avenue when Everardo Custodio, 22, began firing into the crowd, Quinn said.

The driver pulled out a handgun and fired six shots at Custodio, hitting him several times, according to court records. Responding officers found Custodio lying on the ground, bleeding, Quinn said. No other injuries were reported.

The Orlando night club shooter....faced 300 unarmed people and killed 49...this shooter was shot by a concealed carry permit holder....at a night club two weeks after Orlando...

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/0...ss-shooting-night-club-media-remained-silent/

This past Sunday, exactly two weeks to the day after the Pulse attack, there was a mass shooting outside a night club in South Carolina. I’m sure you haven’t heard about it, and for two good reasons. The first reason is that the attempted murderer was unsuccessful in killing any of his victims. The second reason is because the attempted murderer was stopped by a concealed carrier at the club drawing his weapon and putting a bullet into the bad guy.

 

[2aguy]

What about freedom of life liberty and not getting your ass blown off by a psycho?

That's easy....get rid of democrat gun free zones and the mass shooters won't attack schools.....we know this because the mass shooters we have captured state they attack gun free zones......

 

[2aguy]

Translated: These kids who saw the business end of an AR15, were shot at, shot, and saw their friends die do not believe in the NRA as you do. So, you make up some stupid lies to make them look bad.
Truth is, to thinking people, you simply made yourself look bad. Really bad, me boy. You are, I am sure, a simple minded chicken hawk.

The vast majority of the kids on that campus didn't see anything, they weren't even in the same building. So keep telling your lies, we're done troll.
Please, me boy. We know you lie a lot. But calling thise kids what you call them simply makes you a worthless con troll.

You keep posting this drivel. I responded to it once. It is not truth, simply mostly lies. Because, of course, you are a simple lying con troll.


.

This is a movement as real as the MLK movement. If you are a politician receiving NRA money....be afraid....BE VERY AFRAID!

You keep attacking the NRA...the NRA supports the FIX NICS act....the democrats oppose it.

California democrats passed a bill to let violent criminals out of prison early, the NRA fought against it...

The NRA trains local, state and federal law enforcement...the democrats constantly attack law enforcement and prevent them from arresting violent gun criminals.

You keep attacking the NRA...the NRA supports armed security and armed staff in the schools, the democrats oppose it.

The NRA teaches fun safety to millions of children...the democrats fight teaching gun safety to kids.

The NRA supports keeping violent gun offenders in prison, the democrats let violent gun offenders out of jail and pass laws letting them out early.

The NRA doesn't support the PROMISE PROGRAM, of obama, which allowed the shooter to get the gun...the democrats created and support the Promise program...which allowed the shooter to get his gun...

Since those are the facts, the truth and the reality.....

Of the two groups...the democrats are the ones supporting violent murder, not the NRA...

You never post facts, me boy. Never. You are a lying con troll, and you simply cut and paste NRA talking points. Dipshit.

I love it when the RW loons underestimate a growing movement. If many of them had their way....we would still have black and white bathrooms and separate schools. And many of them call themselves Christians.....

Moron...that was the democrats who did that...they also used Poll Taxes and Literacy tests to keep blacks from voting and the democrat kkk was only scared off when the NRA helped blacks learn how to use guns.....

The democrat party is still the party of racism....they love louis farakhan and the other race haters...

 

[2aguy]

These kids scare the NRA gun nutters.

Yes...like the hitler youth scared Jewish people in Germany....

 

[rshermn]

There is a bit of a problem with your post, me boy. It lacks truth.
This was not a mass shooting, but a targeted shooting by a nut case with a PISTOL.
Second, the person who shot and killed the shooter was not part of the school staff, but rather a County Sherif Deputy.
So, you had a pistol wielding shooter, against a pistol wielding sherif deputy. No assault rifle was involved, and no intent was made by the shooter to kill a lot of people.
So, while it is a good outcome, and a good plan for saving lives, it has little to do with a typical mass shooting, me boy. And has absolutely nothing to do with handling mass shootings with an assault rifle involved. And absolutely nothing to do with arming the school staff.

No, all it lacks for you to like it is multiple murders. The kid was shot and killed by a person in the school with a gun. Don't twist it around with your gun hating liberal bullshit!

Really, me con troll. There is no similarity between the Maryland shooting, where a person came in to shoot a person, and did so. And was then shot an killed by a deputy sherif. And, say, the Florida school experience.
But the difference matters. Marryland was NOT by definition a mass shooting. This guy did not have a 30 shot ar15. Just a pistol. So, if you talk to experts relative to engagements with shooters with assault weapons, they will all tell you that a trained person with a pistol will likely die. And a teacher with a pistol will almost certainly die.
If we could have simple one on ones like in Maryland, then it would be different. But the norm is Florida, Las Vegas, various churches, and schools. Where the shooter has an AR and lots of magazines. So, there you go, me boy. Sorry, but you have a simple mind and tried to simplify a complex situation so your simple mind, like yours, could understand it.

Wow....you really don't know what you are talking about....

the worst mass shooting in U.S. history was Virginia Tech...the shooter killed 32 students with 2 pistols.....

And no....trained experts will not tell you that you will die if you fight an AR-15 with a pistol.....you have no idea what you are talking about....especially inside a building where the rifle can't exploit long distances...

You don't have any idea what you are talking about...

The truth......and the numbers...

Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston church shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 9 dead)
26 dead in shooting at church in Sutherland Springs, Texas (26 dead)

vs.

Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)
Psychiatrist v. patient with gun, in gun free zone

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)




Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Texas church...NRA instructor with AR-15 rifle (saved 26 + lives)

hospital shooting, Psychiatrist brought gun into gun free zone, ( 1 dead) stopped shooter.

So here is the actuality, me boy. From a professional who has spent years training other professionals on how to respond to an active shooter scenario. This, me boy, is in fact the truth. See if you can read what he has to say. Because this is no chicken hawk. This is a person who knows of what he speaks:

"Wayne LaPierre, the head of the National Rifle Association (NRA), has famously claimed that “the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.”
Much of today’s opposition to stronger gun safety regulations rests on the gun lobby’s Hobbesian vision of self-sufficient, heavily-armed citizens standing up to vicious thugs. This Die Hard argument is constantly parroted by politicians and conservative pundits. But the statistical reality is that for every justifiable homicide in the United States—for every lethal shooting in defense of life or property—guns are used to commit 34 murders and 78 suicides, and are the cause of two accidental deaths, according to an analysis of FBI data by The Washington Post.

LaPierre, a career lobbyist, has no clue what it’s like to use a firearm in anger. But The Nation spoke to several people who do—including combat veterans and former law enforcement officers—and who believe that the NRA’s heroic gunslinger mythology is a dangerous fantasy that bears little resemblance to reality. Retired Army Sergeant Rafael Noboa y Rivera, who led a combat team in Iraq, says that most soldiers only function effectively after they’ve been exposed to fire a number a times. “I think there’s this fantasy world of gunplay in the movies, but it doesn’t really happen that way,” he says. “When I heard gunfire [in Iraq], I didn’t immediately pick up my rifle and react. I first tried to ascertain where the shooting was coming from, where I was in relation to the gunfire and how far away it was. I think most untrained people are either going to freeze up, or just whip out their gun and start firing in that circumstance,” Noboa said. “I think they would absolutely panic.”

Those interviewed for this article agreed that the key distinction isn’t between “good guys” and “bad guys,” because intentions are less important than the rigorous—and continuous—training that it takes to effectively handle firearms in high-stress situations.

Dr. Pete Blair, an associate professor of criminal justice at Texas State University and director of the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center (ALERRT), has studied mass shooting incidents and trains law enforcement personnel to respond to active-shooter situations. The cops who go through his course conduct live-fire exercises using real firearms which are re-chambered to fire “soap rounds” that leave only welts when they hit.
But these courses offer only a shadow of what’s required, says David Chipman, a former agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). Chipman, who spent several years on the agency’s SWAT team, says, “Training for a potentially deadly encounter meant, at a minimum, qualifying four times a year throughout my 25-year career. And this wasn’t just shooting paper—it meant doing extensive tactical exercises. And when I was on the SWAT team we had to undergo monthly tactical training.”

Tactical officers typically receive training in “judgmental shooting,” which includes knowing when it’s prudent to hold their fire, and “blue-on-blue awareness,” which drills into them the importance of considering whether other cops are present, including officers who aren’t in uniform. They’re trained to overcome tunnel vision by looking not only at their target but also maintaining an awareness of who or what is behind it.

“The notion that you have a seal of approval just because you’re not a criminal—that you walk into a gun store and you’re ready for game-day—is ridiculous,” says Chipman.

A case in Texas two weeks ago highlights the risks of civilians intervening in chaotic situations. Police saythat as two carjackers struggled with the owner of a car at a gas station in northeast Houston, a witness decided to take action into his own hands. He fired several shots, but missed the perpetrators and shot the owner of the car in the head. He then picked up his shell casings and fled the scene. Police are still looking for the shooter.

The potential for that kind of outcome is why most police agencies strongly recommend that concealed carry holders only use their weapons as an absolute last resort, and not intervene in robberies or other crimes in which they’re not directly involved. David Chipman notes that even police officers are told that if they encounter a crime in progress while off-duty, “maybe the best thing to do at that time is not to take lethal action but instead try to be the best witness you can be.”

Not pulling a weapon is often the wisest course of action in active-shooter situations. While a number of conservatives declared that Oregon’s Umpqua Community College, the scene of a mass shooting last week, was a gun-free zone, the truth is that several concealed carry holders were present, and they wisely decided to leave their guns holstered. Veteran John Parker later explained to MSNBC, “We could have opened ourselves up to be potential targets ourselves, and not knowing where SWAT was… if we had our guns ready to shoot, they could think that we were bad guys.”

Mike Huckabee’s words, “sitting duck zones.” But Barker later admitted that his methodology entailed analyzing “10 shootings I found listed on some timeline somewhere.… I honestly don’t even remember where.” And Pete Blair from Texas State notes that by definition, shootings with fewer than four casualties aren’t “mass shootings,” and incidents with as many as 18 casualties are exceedingly rare. Blair acknowledges the possibility that shooters may be more likely to seek out places they see as soft targets, like gun-free zones, but adds, “Trying to prove that is difficult to do.”

a study for the FBI that looked at 185 mass shooting events over a 13-year period. It found that while around one-in-five were stopped by civilians before police arrived, in only one case was it done by a typical “good guy with a gun” (professionals—an off-duty cop and an armed security guard—used their guns to stop two others). In most cases Blair and his colleague studied, civilians ended a rampage by tackling the assailant.

None of this has prevented the gun manufacturers’ lobby from insisting that more guns make a society safer. And many Americans have come to believe it. According to thePew Research Center, the share of gun owners who cite “protection” as “the main reason they own a gun” almost doubled between 1999 and 2013, from 26 percent to 48 percent.

But a large body of empirical evidence finds the opposite to be true. Last year, epidemiologists at the University of California, San Francisco, conducted an extensive analysis of data from 16 previous peer-reviewed studies, and found that having access to a firearm makes a person almost twice as likely to become the victim of a homicide and three times more likely to commit suicide. Previous research has shown thatcountries with higher rates of gun ownership also have higher rates of gun deaths andstates with more guns have higher homicide rates. (The gun lobby’s side of the scholarly debate rests largely on the discredited and allegedly fraudulent work of economist John Lott.)

Rafael Noboa y Rivera scoffed at the idea, adding that he’s personally wary of “untrained yahoos” who “think they’re Wyatt Earp.”

“Despite what we see on TV, the presence of a firearm is a greater risk, especially in the hands of an untrained person,” says David Chipman, the former ATF agent. “Someone can always say, ‘If your mother is being raped by 5 people, wouldn’t you want her to have a gun?’ Well, OK, if you put it that way, I’d say yes, but that’s not a likely scenario. The question is: If you see someone running out of a gas station with a gun in their hand, do you want an untrained person jumping out and opening fire. For me, the answer is clearly ‘no.’”
Tactical Experts Destroy the NRA’s Heroic Gunslinger Fantasy

And the truth......showing you wasted a lot of time typing all that crap...

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...
-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

Really, me boy. You lie again. Not about gun deaths. They did go down. But about the cause. The link you used is quite comprehensive, but it is a bit unsure about the cause of the declines. Mostly the report says a number of causes are involved. But, me boy, NONE HAD TO DO WITH MORE PEOPLE CARRYING WEAPONS. NONE AT ALL.
Apparently you did not look at your own source, but instead made up your own cause. Very dishonest. And really obvious that you were twisting yourself as hard as possible to come up with the false reason for decreases in gun deaths you showed as truth. Really, lying is a bad habit which you seem to have in spades.

 

[2aguy]

We should all be proud of these bright young kids! I am!

Yeah, you just love cuddling with anti Americans assholes. Where's the publicity for the kids that disagree?


.

Anti-American? Still with the right-wing BS? There is no reason to question the patriotism of these kids and their supporters. It is the gun crazies who threaten our nation and their fellow Americans, yet try to wrap themselves in a flag that they don't believe in.

They want to deny basic Civil Rights of their fellow citizens based on lies and the deceit of democrats......

 

[2aguy]

11-YEAR-OLD’S POWERFUL MARCH FOR OUR LIVES SPEECH

Naomi Wadler Honors Black Girls Whose Stories ‘Don’t Make The Front Page’

Wow, what an impressive young lady.

These kids need to be marching on the DNC headquarters....and demand that they stop releasing violent gun offenders back into their neighborhoods...but since the racist democrats don't care about black lives, except every two years...this is a wasted effort....if they want to see what a gun free America would look like, especially their neighborhoods...they just need to look at Mexico.....where the police and military with their drug cartel allies murder innocent men, women and children in the 10s of thousands every year......because the people their are disarmed and helpless....

 

[kiwiman127]

They will BEG Father Government to strip them of constitutional rights granted by our founders...they will beg to be protected from themselves and the very same lowlifes they stand shoulder to shoulder with....haha
Think about that...you can’t make this shit up. Do we really need to wonder why nobody sane can take these Loons serious?

.

Go fellate your gun, you tiny dicked inadequate
loser.
A majority of grown up people in all sectors of people including a majority of gun owners support these marches today.

 

[rshermn]

The vast majority of the kids on that campus didn't see anything, they weren't even in the same building. So keep telling your lies, we're done troll.
Please, me boy. We know you lie a lot. But calling thise kids what you call them simply makes you a worthless con troll.

You keep posting this drivel. I responded to it once. It is not truth, simply mostly lies. Because, of course, you are a simple lying con troll.


.

This is a movement as real as the MLK movement. If you are a politician receiving NRA money....be afraid....BE VERY AFRAID!

You keep attacking the NRA...the NRA supports the FIX NICS act....the democrats oppose it.

California democrats passed a bill to let violent criminals out of prison early, the NRA fought against it...

The NRA trains local, state and federal law enforcement...the democrats constantly attack law enforcement and prevent them from arresting violent gun criminals.

You keep attacking the NRA...the NRA supports armed security and armed staff in the schools, the democrats oppose it.

The NRA teaches fun safety to millions of children...the democrats fight teaching gun safety to kids.

The NRA supports keeping violent gun offenders in prison, the democrats let violent gun offenders out of jail and pass laws letting them out early.

The NRA doesn't support the PROMISE PROGRAM, of obama, which allowed the shooter to get the gun...the democrats created and support the Promise program...which allowed the shooter to get his gun...

Since those are the facts, the truth and the reality.....

Of the two groups...the democrats are the ones supporting violent murder, not the NRA...

You never post facts, me boy. Never. You are a lying con troll, and you simply cut and paste NRA talking points. Dipshit.

I love it when the RW loons underestimate a growing movement. If many of them had their way....we would still have black and white bathrooms and separate schools. And many of them call themselves Christians.....

Moron...that was the democrats who did that...they also used Poll Taxes and Literacy tests to keep blacks from voting and the democrat kkk was only scared off when the NRA helped blacks learn how to use guns.....

The democrat party is still the party of racism....they love louis farakhan and the other race haters...

As a proven liar, and a known con tool, your are again keeping up the beat. Pure bullshit, which is why you have no link. Though, even when you post a link, you lie about what it says. Real waste of time.

 

[rshermn]

11-YEAR-OLD’S POWERFUL MARCH FOR OUR LIVES SPEECH

Naomi Wadler Honors Black Girls Whose Stories ‘Don’t Make The Front Page’

Wow, what an impressive young lady.

These kids need to be marching on the DNC headquarters....and demand that they stop releasing violent gun offenders back into their neighborhoods...but since the racist democrats don't care about black lives, except every two years...this is a wasted effort....if they want to see what a gun free America would look like, especially their neighborhoods...they just need to look at Mexico.....where the police and military with their drug cartel allies murder innocent men, women and children in the 10s of thousands every year......because the people their are disarmed and helpless....

They will BEG Father Government to strip them of constitutional rights granted by our founders...they will beg to be protected from themselves and the very same lowlifes they stand shoulder to shoulder with....haha
Think about that...you can’t make this shit up. Do we really need to wonder why nobody sane can take these Loons serious?

.

Go fellate your gun, you tiny dicked inadequate
loser.
A majority of grown up people in all sectors of people including a majority of gun owners support these marches today.

Yeah, but he is not a grown up. Just a brain dead con troll.

 

[rshermn]

More lies, all interstate gun sales have to go through FFL dealers and BG checks.

We've been through this before - depends on the state but in general, no they do NOT.

Pound sand please

Well dumb ass, look at federal law, the states have nothing to do with it. You are just simply ignorant about existing laws.

Again dumb ass, we've been through this many times. I have provided link upon link upon link.

Stay comfortably numb.

Not his fault. You must have a working brain to understand a link. Poor tool is deficient in th brain area.

 

[rshermn]

The vast majority of the kids on that campus didn't see anything, they weren't even in the same building. So keep telling your lies, we're done troll.
Please, me boy. We know you lie a lot. But calling thise kids what you call them simply makes you a worthless con troll.

You keep posting this drivel. I responded to it once. It is not truth, simply mostly lies. Because, of course, you are a simple lying con troll.


.

This is a movement as real as the MLK movement. If you are a politician receiving NRA money....be afraid....BE VERY AFRAID!

You keep attacking the NRA...the NRA supports the FIX NICS act....the democrats oppose it.

California democrats passed a bill to let violent criminals out of prison early, the NRA fought against it...

The NRA trains local, state and federal law enforcement...the democrats constantly attack law enforcement and prevent them from arresting violent gun criminals.

You keep attacking the NRA...the NRA supports armed security and armed staff in the schools, the democrats oppose it.

The NRA teaches fun safety to millions of children...the democrats fight teaching gun safety to kids.

The NRA supports keeping violent gun offenders in prison, the democrats let violent gun offenders out of jail and pass laws letting them out early.

The NRA doesn't support the PROMISE PROGRAM, of obama, which allowed the shooter to get the gun...the democrats created and support the Promise program...which allowed the shooter to get his gun...

Since those are the facts, the truth and the reality.....

Of the two groups...the democrats are the ones supporting violent murder, not the NRA...

You never post facts, me boy. Never. You are a lying con troll, and you simply cut and paste NRA talking points. Dipshit.

I love it when the RW loons underestimate a growing movement. If many of them had their way....we would still have black and white bathrooms and separate schools. And many of them call themselves Christians.....

Imagine that, this growing movement is almost like your last growing movement.
View attachment 184425

Not at all, except in your little pea brain. No one can see the future, but this is huge in numbers, and simple in what they want. Just gun law changes. So, we will see if you can continue to hide behind the NRA.

 

[rshermn]

Hey dummy, the weapon was shipped to a local FFL dealer and a background check was done. He could have purchased the same weapon form any local dealer that had it in stock. He didn't avoid a background check by buying it online.

Yes I get that dummy - but any idiot can go to GunSource or ArmsList and buy anything they want from an unlicensed dealer with no BG check.

Screw Internet sales - add waiting periods - NOTHING to anyone under 21 - add thorough mental BG checks - improve databases across state lines -

Your objection is what?

More lies, all interstate gun sales have to go through FFL dealers and BG checks.
.

Most guns are purchased locally. And you can buy anything at a gun show. And the NRA does not want that stopped.

90% of sales at gun shows are done by FFL dealers. Most private sellers don't want to pay the fees charged by the shows for tables. You claimed to hold an FFL, how many guns have you transfered without a background check?


.

It was years ago. So, I doubt I could be accurate. And, I will take the 5th.

 

[rshermn]

Really, me con troll. There is no similarity between the Maryland shooting, where a person came in to shoot a person, and did so. And was then shot an killed by a deputy sherif. And, say, the Florida school experience.
But the difference matters. Marryland was NOT by definition a mass shooting. This guy did not have a 30 shot ar15. Just a pistol. So, if you talk to experts relative to engagements with shooters with assault weapons, they will all tell you that a trained person with a pistol will likely die. And a teacher with a pistol will almost certainly die.
If we could have simple one on ones like in Maryland, then it would be different. But the norm is Florida, Las Vegas, various churches, and schools. Where the shooter has an AR and lots of magazines. So, there you go, me boy. Sorry, but you have a simple mind and tried to simplify a complex situation so your simple mind, like yours, could understand it.

Wow....you really don't know what you are talking about....

the worst mass shooting in U.S. history was Virginia Tech...the shooter killed 32 students with 2 pistols.....

And no....trained experts will not tell you that you will die if you fight an AR-15 with a pistol.....you have no idea what you are talking about....especially inside a building where the rifle can't exploit long distances...

You don't have any idea what you are talking about...

The truth......and the numbers...

Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston church shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 9 dead)
26 dead in shooting at church in Sutherland Springs, Texas (26 dead)

vs.

Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)
Psychiatrist v. patient with gun, in gun free zone

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)




Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Texas church...NRA instructor with AR-15 rifle (saved 26 + lives)

hospital shooting, Psychiatrist brought gun into gun free zone, ( 1 dead) stopped shooter.

So here is the actuality, me boy. From a professional who has spent years training other professionals on how to respond to an active shooter scenario. This, me boy, is in fact the truth. See if you can read what he has to say. Because this is no chicken hawk. This is a person who knows of what he speaks:

"Wayne LaPierre, the head of the National Rifle Association (NRA), has famously claimed that “the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.”
Much of today’s opposition to stronger gun safety regulations rests on the gun lobby’s Hobbesian vision of self-sufficient, heavily-armed citizens standing up to vicious thugs. This Die Hard argument is constantly parroted by politicians and conservative pundits. But the statistical reality is that for every justifiable homicide in the United States—for every lethal shooting in defense of life or property—guns are used to commit 34 murders and 78 suicides, and are the cause of two accidental deaths, according to an analysis of FBI data by The Washington Post.

LaPierre, a career lobbyist, has no clue what it’s like to use a firearm in anger. But The Nation spoke to several people who do—including combat veterans and former law enforcement officers—and who believe that the NRA’s heroic gunslinger mythology is a dangerous fantasy that bears little resemblance to reality. Retired Army Sergeant Rafael Noboa y Rivera, who led a combat team in Iraq, says that most soldiers only function effectively after they’ve been exposed to fire a number a times. “I think there’s this fantasy world of gunplay in the movies, but it doesn’t really happen that way,” he says. “When I heard gunfire [in Iraq], I didn’t immediately pick up my rifle and react. I first tried to ascertain where the shooting was coming from, where I was in relation to the gunfire and how far away it was. I think most untrained people are either going to freeze up, or just whip out their gun and start firing in that circumstance,” Noboa said. “I think they would absolutely panic.”

Those interviewed for this article agreed that the key distinction isn’t between “good guys” and “bad guys,” because intentions are less important than the rigorous—and continuous—training that it takes to effectively handle firearms in high-stress situations.

Dr. Pete Blair, an associate professor of criminal justice at Texas State University and director of the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center (ALERRT), has studied mass shooting incidents and trains law enforcement personnel to respond to active-shooter situations. The cops who go through his course conduct live-fire exercises using real firearms which are re-chambered to fire “soap rounds” that leave only welts when they hit.
But these courses offer only a shadow of what’s required, says David Chipman, a former agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). Chipman, who spent several years on the agency’s SWAT team, says, “Training for a potentially deadly encounter meant, at a minimum, qualifying four times a year throughout my 25-year career. And this wasn’t just shooting paper—it meant doing extensive tactical exercises. And when I was on the SWAT team we had to undergo monthly tactical training.”

Tactical officers typically receive training in “judgmental shooting,” which includes knowing when it’s prudent to hold their fire, and “blue-on-blue awareness,” which drills into them the importance of considering whether other cops are present, including officers who aren’t in uniform. They’re trained to overcome tunnel vision by looking not only at their target but also maintaining an awareness of who or what is behind it.

“The notion that you have a seal of approval just because you’re not a criminal—that you walk into a gun store and you’re ready for game-day—is ridiculous,” says Chipman.

A case in Texas two weeks ago highlights the risks of civilians intervening in chaotic situations. Police saythat as two carjackers struggled with the owner of a car at a gas station in northeast Houston, a witness decided to take action into his own hands. He fired several shots, but missed the perpetrators and shot the owner of the car in the head. He then picked up his shell casings and fled the scene. Police are still looking for the shooter.

The potential for that kind of outcome is why most police agencies strongly recommend that concealed carry holders only use their weapons as an absolute last resort, and not intervene in robberies or other crimes in which they’re not directly involved. David Chipman notes that even police officers are told that if they encounter a crime in progress while off-duty, “maybe the best thing to do at that time is not to take lethal action but instead try to be the best witness you can be.”

Not pulling a weapon is often the wisest course of action in active-shooter situations. While a number of conservatives declared that Oregon’s Umpqua Community College, the scene of a mass shooting last week, was a gun-free zone, the truth is that several concealed carry holders were present, and they wisely decided to leave their guns holstered. Veteran John Parker later explained to MSNBC, “We could have opened ourselves up to be potential targets ourselves, and not knowing where SWAT was… if we had our guns ready to shoot, they could think that we were bad guys.”

Mike Huckabee’s words, “sitting duck zones.” But Barker later admitted that his methodology entailed analyzing “10 shootings I found listed on some timeline somewhere.… I honestly don’t even remember where.” And Pete Blair from Texas State notes that by definition, shootings with fewer than four casualties aren’t “mass shootings,” and incidents with as many as 18 casualties are exceedingly rare. Blair acknowledges the possibility that shooters may be more likely to seek out places they see as soft targets, like gun-free zones, but adds, “Trying to prove that is difficult to do.”

a study for the FBI that looked at 185 mass shooting events over a 13-year period. It found that while around one-in-five were stopped by civilians before police arrived, in only one case was it done by a typical “good guy with a gun” (professionals—an off-duty cop and an armed security guard—used their guns to stop two others). In most cases Blair and his colleague studied, civilians ended a rampage by tackling the assailant.

None of this has prevented the gun manufacturers’ lobby from insisting that more guns make a society safer. And many Americans have come to believe it. According to thePew Research Center, the share of gun owners who cite “protection” as “the main reason they own a gun” almost doubled between 1999 and 2013, from 26 percent to 48 percent.

But a large body of empirical evidence finds the opposite to be true. Last year, epidemiologists at the University of California, San Francisco, conducted an extensive analysis of data from 16 previous peer-reviewed studies, and found that having access to a firearm makes a person almost twice as likely to become the victim of a homicide and three times more likely to commit suicide. Previous research has shown thatcountries with higher rates of gun ownership also have higher rates of gun deaths andstates with more guns have higher homicide rates. (The gun lobby’s side of the scholarly debate rests largely on the discredited and allegedly fraudulent work of economist John Lott.)

Rafael Noboa y Rivera scoffed at the idea, adding that he’s personally wary of “untrained yahoos” who “think they’re Wyatt Earp.”

“Despite what we see on TV, the presence of a firearm is a greater risk, especially in the hands of an untrained person,” says David Chipman, the former ATF agent. “Someone can always say, ‘If your mother is being raped by 5 people, wouldn’t you want her to have a gun?’ Well, OK, if you put it that way, I’d say yes, but that’s not a likely scenario. The question is: If you see someone running out of a gas station with a gun in their hand, do you want an untrained person jumping out and opening fire. For me, the answer is clearly ‘no.’”
Tactical Experts Destroy the NRA’s Heroic Gunslinger Fantasy

Excellent cut and paste. Proves nothing when a bunch of fascist get together and and circle jerk about crime and evil guns. lol.

So, you do not believe actual experienced trainers of those that must face armed shooters. Because you think they are Fascists. So, got it. You are brain dead.
To those with actual working minds, this is far from the only article out there written by actual experienced trainers of professionals facing mass shooters. All say about the same thing. Now, while con trolls like the nra version, what those trainers call the gunslinger theory, all say it is stupid. Does not apply in the real world. But as an NRA troll, and a totally inexperienced nut case, there is no reason to believe you. Just like me, you need a source that is experienced. Which, of course, you do not bother with. Because you are afraid and just want to believe some one will pull a gun and save your ass. Luckily for you, it is very unlikely you will ever need help.

Except for the real world mass shooter events where civilians with little to no traingin actually did shoot mass shooters.......

Deputies: Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense

According to deputies, Parangan pulled out a handgun and fired multiple shots at Pastor Terry Howell, who took out his own weapon and fired back, striking Parangan.

Howell was not injured, but Parangan was taken to Osceola Regional Medical Center in critical condition.

Deputies said several church employees witnessed the incident and gave similar statements.
I know you have a non working brain. But we were talking about mass shootings, not a gun fight between two guys. See the difference, me boy?

this Psychiatrist was not an off duty cop.....

Penn. psychiatric center shooting intended mass killing: DA

The Pennsylvania patient accused of killing his caseworker in a psychiatric center shooting carried dozens of bullets — and he would have likely continued shooting if a doctor didn’t fire back, officials said.

Richard Plotts, 49, is expected to be charged with murder for allegedly opening fire at Sister Marie Lenahan Wellness Center in Darby Thursday.

After he killed his caseworker, 53-year-old Theresa Hunt, and shot his psychiatrist, Lee Silverman, the wounded doctor fired back, stopping the attack, District Attorney Jack Whelan said in a Friday press conference.
This is tough for you, me boy, obviously. Again this was one guy who shot one person. Again, it is not a mass shooting.

Plotts had 39 more bullets on him. He intended a mass shooting, Whelan said.



This Uber driver is not a cop....

An Uber driver with a concealed handgun prevented a mass shooting in Chicago

A driver with the ride-hailing service Uber put a stop to a potential mass shooting in Chicago over the weekend.

Here's the Chicago Tribune, citing Assistant State's Attorney Barry Quinn:

A group of people had been walking in front of the driver around 11:50 p.m. in the 2900 block of North Milwaukee Avenue when Everardo Custodio, 22, began firing into the crowd, Quinn said.

The driver pulled out a handgun and fired six shots at Custodio, hitting him several times, according to court records. Responding officers found Custodio lying on the ground, bleeding, Quinn said. No other injuries were reported.

Uh, a potential mass shooting is not a mass shooting. Again, you are simply lying.

The Orlando night club shooter....faced 300 unarmed people and killed 49...this shooter was shot by a concealed carry permit holder....at a night club two weeks after Orlando...

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/0...ss-shooting-night-club-media-remained-silent/

Really, you need to stop lying, me con troll. The orlando night club shooter was killed after he did his shooting, and after a 3 hour standoff, by Orlando police Department Police Officers.
Orlando nightclub shooting - Wikipedia

This past Sunday, exactly two weeks to the day after the Pulse attack, there was a mass shooting outside a night club in South Carolina. I’m sure you haven’t heard about it, and for two good reasons. The first reason is that the attempted murderer was unsuccessful in killing any of his victims. The second reason is because the attempted murderer was stopped by a concealed carrier at the club drawing his weapon and putting a bullet into the bad guy.
The reason no one heard about it was that it was again, me boy, NOT A MASS SHOOTING.

So, a number of lies. Really, you are a shit. I hate people who lie and waste my time. Which is about all you do.

 

[2aguy]

Wow....you really don't know what you are talking about....

the worst mass shooting in U.S. history was Virginia Tech...the shooter killed 32 students with 2 pistols.....

And no....trained experts will not tell you that you will die if you fight an AR-15 with a pistol.....you have no idea what you are talking about....especially inside a building where the rifle can't exploit long distances...

You don't have any idea what you are talking about...

The truth......and the numbers...

Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston church shooting - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia ( 9 dead)
26 dead in shooting at church in Sutherland Springs, Texas (26 dead)

vs.

Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)
Psychiatrist v. patient with gun, in gun free zone

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)




Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Texas church...NRA instructor with AR-15 rifle (saved 26 + lives)

hospital shooting, Psychiatrist brought gun into gun free zone, ( 1 dead) stopped shooter.

So here is the actuality, me boy. From a professional who has spent years training other professionals on how to respond to an active shooter scenario. This, me boy, is in fact the truth. See if you can read what he has to say. Because this is no chicken hawk. This is a person who knows of what he speaks:

"Wayne LaPierre, the head of the National Rifle Association (NRA), has famously claimed that “the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun.”
Much of today’s opposition to stronger gun safety regulations rests on the gun lobby’s Hobbesian vision of self-sufficient, heavily-armed citizens standing up to vicious thugs. This Die Hard argument is constantly parroted by politicians and conservative pundits. But the statistical reality is that for every justifiable homicide in the United States—for every lethal shooting in defense of life or property—guns are used to commit 34 murders and 78 suicides, and are the cause of two accidental deaths, according to an analysis of FBI data by The Washington Post.

LaPierre, a career lobbyist, has no clue what it’s like to use a firearm in anger. But The Nation spoke to several people who do—including combat veterans and former law enforcement officers—and who believe that the NRA’s heroic gunslinger mythology is a dangerous fantasy that bears little resemblance to reality. Retired Army Sergeant Rafael Noboa y Rivera, who led a combat team in Iraq, says that most soldiers only function effectively after they’ve been exposed to fire a number a times. “I think there’s this fantasy world of gunplay in the movies, but it doesn’t really happen that way,” he says. “When I heard gunfire [in Iraq], I didn’t immediately pick up my rifle and react. I first tried to ascertain where the shooting was coming from, where I was in relation to the gunfire and how far away it was. I think most untrained people are either going to freeze up, or just whip out their gun and start firing in that circumstance,” Noboa said. “I think they would absolutely panic.”

Those interviewed for this article agreed that the key distinction isn’t between “good guys” and “bad guys,” because intentions are less important than the rigorous—and continuous—training that it takes to effectively handle firearms in high-stress situations.

Dr. Pete Blair, an associate professor of criminal justice at Texas State University and director of the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center (ALERRT), has studied mass shooting incidents and trains law enforcement personnel to respond to active-shooter situations. The cops who go through his course conduct live-fire exercises using real firearms which are re-chambered to fire “soap rounds” that leave only welts when they hit.
But these courses offer only a shadow of what’s required, says David Chipman, a former agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). Chipman, who spent several years on the agency’s SWAT team, says, “Training for a potentially deadly encounter meant, at a minimum, qualifying four times a year throughout my 25-year career. And this wasn’t just shooting paper—it meant doing extensive tactical exercises. And when I was on the SWAT team we had to undergo monthly tactical training.”

Tactical officers typically receive training in “judgmental shooting,” which includes knowing when it’s prudent to hold their fire, and “blue-on-blue awareness,” which drills into them the importance of considering whether other cops are present, including officers who aren’t in uniform. They’re trained to overcome tunnel vision by looking not only at their target but also maintaining an awareness of who or what is behind it.

“The notion that you have a seal of approval just because you’re not a criminal—that you walk into a gun store and you’re ready for game-day—is ridiculous,” says Chipman.

A case in Texas two weeks ago highlights the risks of civilians intervening in chaotic situations. Police saythat as two carjackers struggled with the owner of a car at a gas station in northeast Houston, a witness decided to take action into his own hands. He fired several shots, but missed the perpetrators and shot the owner of the car in the head. He then picked up his shell casings and fled the scene. Police are still looking for the shooter.

The potential for that kind of outcome is why most police agencies strongly recommend that concealed carry holders only use their weapons as an absolute last resort, and not intervene in robberies or other crimes in which they’re not directly involved. David Chipman notes that even police officers are told that if they encounter a crime in progress while off-duty, “maybe the best thing to do at that time is not to take lethal action but instead try to be the best witness you can be.”

Not pulling a weapon is often the wisest course of action in active-shooter situations. While a number of conservatives declared that Oregon’s Umpqua Community College, the scene of a mass shooting last week, was a gun-free zone, the truth is that several concealed carry holders were present, and they wisely decided to leave their guns holstered. Veteran John Parker later explained to MSNBC, “We could have opened ourselves up to be potential targets ourselves, and not knowing where SWAT was… if we had our guns ready to shoot, they could think that we were bad guys.”

Mike Huckabee’s words, “sitting duck zones.” But Barker later admitted that his methodology entailed analyzing “10 shootings I found listed on some timeline somewhere.… I honestly don’t even remember where.” And Pete Blair from Texas State notes that by definition, shootings with fewer than four casualties aren’t “mass shootings,” and incidents with as many as 18 casualties are exceedingly rare. Blair acknowledges the possibility that shooters may be more likely to seek out places they see as soft targets, like gun-free zones, but adds, “Trying to prove that is difficult to do.”

a study for the FBI that looked at 185 mass shooting events over a 13-year period. It found that while around one-in-five were stopped by civilians before police arrived, in only one case was it done by a typical “good guy with a gun” (professionals—an off-duty cop and an armed security guard—used their guns to stop two others). In most cases Blair and his colleague studied, civilians ended a rampage by tackling the assailant.

None of this has prevented the gun manufacturers’ lobby from insisting that more guns make a society safer. And many Americans have come to believe it. According to thePew Research Center, the share of gun owners who cite “protection” as “the main reason they own a gun” almost doubled between 1999 and 2013, from 26 percent to 48 percent.

But a large body of empirical evidence finds the opposite to be true. Last year, epidemiologists at the University of California, San Francisco, conducted an extensive analysis of data from 16 previous peer-reviewed studies, and found that having access to a firearm makes a person almost twice as likely to become the victim of a homicide and three times more likely to commit suicide. Previous research has shown thatcountries with higher rates of gun ownership also have higher rates of gun deaths andstates with more guns have higher homicide rates. (The gun lobby’s side of the scholarly debate rests largely on the discredited and allegedly fraudulent work of economist John Lott.)

Rafael Noboa y Rivera scoffed at the idea, adding that he’s personally wary of “untrained yahoos” who “think they’re Wyatt Earp.”

“Despite what we see on TV, the presence of a firearm is a greater risk, especially in the hands of an untrained person,” says David Chipman, the former ATF agent. “Someone can always say, ‘If your mother is being raped by 5 people, wouldn’t you want her to have a gun?’ Well, OK, if you put it that way, I’d say yes, but that’s not a likely scenario. The question is: If you see someone running out of a gas station with a gun in their hand, do you want an untrained person jumping out and opening fire. For me, the answer is clearly ‘no.’”
Tactical Experts Destroy the NRA’s Heroic Gunslinger Fantasy

Excellent cut and paste. Proves nothing when a bunch of fascist get together and and circle jerk about crime and evil guns. lol.

So, you do not believe actual experienced trainers of those that must face armed shooters. Because you think they are Fascists. So, got it. You are brain dead.
To those with actual working minds, this is far from the only article out there written by actual experienced trainers of professionals facing mass shooters. All say about the same thing. Now, while con trolls like the nra version, what those trainers call the gunslinger theory, all say it is stupid. Does not apply in the real world. But as an NRA troll, and a totally inexperienced nut case, there is no reason to believe you. Just like me, you need a source that is experienced. Which, of course, you do not bother with. Because you are afraid and just want to believe some one will pull a gun and save your ass. Luckily for you, it is very unlikely you will ever need help.

Except for the real world mass shooter events where civilians with little to no traingin actually did shoot mass shooters.......

Deputies: Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense

According to deputies, Parangan pulled out a handgun and fired multiple shots at Pastor Terry Howell, who took out his own weapon and fired back, striking Parangan.

Howell was not injured, but Parangan was taken to Osceola Regional Medical Center in critical condition.

Deputies said several church employees witnessed the incident and gave similar statements.
I know you have a non working brain. But we were talking about mass shootings, not a gun fight between two guys. See the difference, me boy?

this Psychiatrist was not an off duty cop.....

Penn. psychiatric center shooting intended mass killing: DA

The Pennsylvania patient accused of killing his caseworker in a psychiatric center shooting carried dozens of bullets — and he would have likely continued shooting if a doctor didn’t fire back, officials said.

Richard Plotts, 49, is expected to be charged with murder for allegedly opening fire at Sister Marie Lenahan Wellness Center in Darby Thursday.

After he killed his caseworker, 53-year-old Theresa Hunt, and shot his psychiatrist, Lee Silverman, the wounded doctor fired back, stopping the attack, District Attorney Jack Whelan said in a Friday press conference.
This is tough for you, me boy, obviously. Again this was one guy who shot one person. Again, it is not a mass shooting.

Plotts had 39 more bullets on him. He intended a mass shooting, Whelan said.



This Uber driver is not a cop....

An Uber driver with a concealed handgun prevented a mass shooting in Chicago

A driver with the ride-hailing service Uber put a stop to a potential mass shooting in Chicago over the weekend.

Here's the Chicago Tribune, citing Assistant State's Attorney Barry Quinn:

A group of people had been walking in front of the driver around 11:50 p.m. in the 2900 block of North Milwaukee Avenue when Everardo Custodio, 22, began firing into the crowd, Quinn said.

The driver pulled out a handgun and fired six shots at Custodio, hitting him several times, according to court records. Responding officers found Custodio lying on the ground, bleeding, Quinn said. No other injuries were reported.

Uh, a potential mass shooting is not a mass shooting. Again, you are simply lying.

The Orlando night club shooter....faced 300 unarmed people and killed 49...this shooter was shot by a concealed carry permit holder....at a night club two weeks after Orlando...

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/0...ss-shooting-night-club-media-remained-silent/

Really, you need to stop lying, me con troll. The orlando night club shooter was killed after he did his shooting, and after a 3 hour standoff, by Orlando police Department Police Officers.
Orlando nightclub shooting - Wikipedia

This past Sunday, exactly two weeks to the day after the Pulse attack, there was a mass shooting outside a night club in South Carolina. I’m sure you haven’t heard about it, and for two good reasons. The first reason is that the attempted murderer was unsuccessful in killing any of his victims. The second reason is because the attempted murderer was stopped by a concealed carrier at the club drawing his weapon and putting a bullet into the bad guy.
The reason no one heard about it was that it was again, me boy, NOT A MASS SHOOTING.

So, a number of lies. Really, you are a shit. I hate people who lie and waste my time. Which is about all you do.

Does your nurse know you have left your room again and are playing on the computer? Tell her that she needs to stop playing Angry Birds or whatever game she is playing and put you back to bed........