Spread the Wealth

[Bern80]

We are not capable of being in a free system. Our greed, vanity, desire will always push others down and prop up few, creating an imbalance in wealth that we see now. The middle class has to be strenghethened, otherwise we're heading towards an aristocracy, and that is not very democratic. Humans are too greedy to be left to their own devices. As cynical as it may sound, we have to be regulated. We're not as awesome as we'd like to think.

This is a mantra screamed over and over that the rich are keeping people down. Yet when asked how they SPECIFICALLY do that, there are few if any answers. Perhaps you'd like to take a crack at that one.

Frankly I are proof of what I said before. You are just another sheep who is all to content to play the victim when rather then hold yourself accountable and use the brain you were given to improve your lot. Instead you are more then content to sit with your thumb up your ass thinking you're suppossed to wait for government to fix things for you.

 

[Turboswede]

Frankly I are proof of what I said before. You are just another sheep who is all to content to play the victim when rather then hold yourself accountable and use the brain you were given to improve your lot. Instead you are more then content to sit with your thumb up your ass thinking you're suppossed to wait for government to fix things for you.

Why is it that that the right always make this personal. Just because I am in favor of a tax break for the poor does not mean that I am poor. Its not that the liberals want to promote social programs so they can quit their jobs and live off the dole.

Ways the Rich keep the poor in place, here are 10:
1. All Volunteer Military
2. Cost of private university tuition
3. Payroll Taxes
4. Religion
5. Fox News
6. Wal-Mart
7. The Terror Scare
8. The national debt
9. Minimum deposit amounts on CD’s
10. Public primary and secondary schools.

 

[Care4all]

This is a mantra screamed over and over that the rich are keeping people down. Yet when asked how they SPECIFICALLY do that, there are few if any answers. Perhaps you'd like to take a crack at that one.

Frankly I are proof of what I said before. You are just another sheep who is all to content to play the victim when rather then hold yourself accountable and use the brain you were given to improve your lot. Instead you are more then content to sit with your thumb up your ass thinking you're suppossed to wait for government to fix things for you.

They do it through legislation Bern....an example is the new law on Bankruptcy, where the banks issued credit cards to high risk people, giving them a 25% INTEREST RATE so that these banks can cover the high risk people that do actually default....so they have COLLECTED their money in interest that MORE THAN COVERED their possible losses, not even guaranteed losses but possible losses, then they had the law changed in bankruptcy where those going bankrupt STILL have to pay them back...

Did they then lower the interest rate on these high risk groups from 25% to maybe 15% since congress changed the law to cover them on the back end of the deal....NOOOOO, of course not.

What happened with this credit crisis also and the lack of oversight from the agencies that were there to PROTECT all of american citizens, where these agencies were TOLD to turn a blind eye to the speculation that was going on that has dicked us to no end....

and the finance companies making irrational mortgages that made absolutely NO BUSINESS SENSE...lack of regulation bit us in the butt there too...

and the medical pill bill, where it can't be negotiated in bulk thanks to legislation stating such while giving the middle class a 5000 dollar donut hole, that was all done by lobbyists with congress...

the 9 foot high of irs rules on deductions....ways to get out of taxes while 60% of americans do not even fill out the long form and file taxes via short form....WHO are most all of those loopholes for and who had them put in to the irs code? certainly NOT the people that only file short form?

The money corps are given by moving overseas...legislation regarding that, DICKS the average joe out of a job...

the loophole of global businesses being able to keep their profits offshore and untaxed, can the average joe get that benefit from anything that he does?

the oil companies not having to pay the full cost of leasing OUR LAND that they drill on...dicks us.

Bern, bern bern...i could go on for hours....

 

[editec]

This is a mantra screamed over and over that the rich are keeping people down. Yet when asked how they SPECIFICALLY do that, there are few if any answers. Perhaps you'd like to take a crack at that one.

1. By buying off government to completely change the 200+ year direction this nation took regarding trade policies.

2. By systematically buying off government to allow them to break unions

3. By systematically placing a greater and greater share of the tax burden on the working people, or WORSE, on the FUTURE.

4. By systematically allowing the minimum wage to grow at a rate far below even the obviously understated rate of the REAL rate of consumer inflation

5. By having our government create an absurd model to measure inflation thus insuring that social security payments didn't keep up with the REAL rate of consumer inflation.

There's five ways the class war has been conducted off the top of my head

Frankly I are proof of what I said before. You are just another sheep who is all to content to play the victim when rather then hold yourself accountable and use the brain you were given to improve your lot. Instead you are more then content to sit with your thumb up your ass thinking you're suppossed to wait for government to fix things for you.

Oh I am sure we're all very impressed.

And you know Willy Mays proved to many Americans that racism wasn't a problem, too.

But the statistics told us another story, didn't they?

 

[user_name_guest]

Unions have really helped Michigan. Nevermind the companies failing to find cost effective ways of turning a decline into a money making machine.

 

[Turboswede]

Unions have really helped Michigan. Nevermind the companies failing to find cost effective ways of turning a decline into a money making machine.

Do you have any idea of how much of Michigan owes its existence to union bolstered pay checks and tax revenues for the past 70 years? Don’t go blaming unions for the decline of the US Auto Industry, they have a unionized work force at BMW and Daimler that are doing just fine. Would it have anything to do with not producing a decent subcompact car until 1981 (designed in Europe by the way). Is it the Union’s fault that GMAC has managed to nearly bankrupt GM after a decade of record sales? Is it the union’s fault that my family have pretty much sworn never to by a ford again due to poor design and engineering?

 

[Bern80]

Ways the Rich keep the poor in place, here are 10:

I was hoping for serious answers to this... Let's go through these one by one.

1. All Volunteer Military

What exacltey do the rich have to do with this? Are the rich somehow making people volunteer? Are you suggesting we adopt a military similar to other countries where everyone is required to serve for some period of time?

2. Cost of private university tuition.

Again the rich have what to do with this? Yes it's expensive, but colleges are businesses also and need money to run. I agree that the rate at which tuition is increasing is rediculous, but what the rich have to do with it is beyond me. It doesn't serve them in anyway to decrease demand for their product.

3. Payroll Taxes

You obviously are not self-employed or own a business. Otherwise you would know how rediculous this one is.

4. Religion

So it would also have to be your belief that the rich control religion. There is little if any statisitcal evidence for that.

5. Fox News

So the left leaning media outlets are owned by poor people? Not editorializing the news with a liberal paintbrush like the rest of the MSM keeps the poor down how exactley?

6. Wal-Mart

Do you not believe in skilled based pay now? That is the typical complaint lodged against Wal-Mart, that they pay so little. They provide jobs, but if you're thinking of making a career out of it you may want to reexamine your life some. Nevermind that Wal-Mart provides low cost to the very group of people you say they are hurting.

7. The Terror Scare

I would say 9/11 is reason enough to be at the very least vigilante. Are you claiming that somehow rich people are behind scaring people about terrorists? If so, to what end?

8. The national debt

One half-way credible reason out of ten. Congratulations.

9. Minimum deposit amounts on CD’s

Done follow this one.

10. Public primary and secondary schools.

Private schools are overrated especially by the time you reach college. I assume you're saying that private schools are 'better' than public schools. So what's your solution? Dumb down the private schools? Keep throwing money at public education? Yes the poor may not have the option to pay for a private school, but what do the rich have to do with that? The rich didn't put the parents of poor children in that situation.

Lastly I want to thank you for proving my point. I said that people like you will make excuses as to why they are not rich rather then examine themselves as the cause of the situation they are in. And low and behold you provided said list of excuses. For the next exercise, give me a list of 10 things that you are responsible for concerning your ability to gain wealth.

 

[Turboswede]

Lastly I want to thank you for proving my point. I said that people like you will make excuses as to why they are not rich rather then examine themselves as the cause of the situation they are in. And low and behold you provided said list of excuses. For the next exercise, give me a list of 10 things that you are responsible for concerning your ability to gain wealth.

Wow, looks like I hit a nerve with this one. I was asked to provide a list of “ten things the rich do to keep the poor down” not a discourse explaining how each of the 10 items on my list keeps the poor in their place. I think my list may have been taken a little too literally and I don’t think there is a silver bullet like the Dread Scott decision.

The wealthy have learned a thing or two about PR since the days of Marie Antoinette telling the masses to eat cake when they had no bread (BTW that’s “cake” as in what is caked on to the inside of an oven, not cup cakes”. So they tend to be a little more concerned about the public appearance of their actions these days.

I will try to convey the concept behind each of the items on my list so that they are not taken quite so literally:

All Volunteer Military

I do support national service, only imperial powers require an All Volunteer military which includes non citizen. The reason is that the military can be used to further personal goals of the political leadership rather than interests of the nation. The reason for the outcry against the Vietnam War was the result of conscripted military being used to promote the interest of political and economic elites. With a Volunteer army questions about how the military is employed become much less vocal as military personnel are thought to have “volunteered”.

I think the reaction to reservists and national guardsmen’s resistance to deployment shows how far this “they signed up for it” mentality has been disseminated to the US public.

Cost of private university tuition

Not tuition costs per se, but the legacy program that insures marginally competent children of the wealth are insured seats at the nation’s most prestigious universities. Why should anyone attending Harvard Law need to take the NY state bar exam more than 3 times?


Payroll Taxes

The payroll tax is clearly regressive as it is caped for individuals earning more than 102,000. After 102,000 the amount in taxes paid is reduced in proportion to an individual’s income. It also only impacts individuals that work for a living, not those that benefit from the fruits of employee labor.

It was intended to provide a form of minimum social insurance through the forced savings of a portion of employee wages, but as the nation is in a state of perpetual debt the Social Security Trust fund is meaningless.

Religion
Convince people that their reward is in heaven and that they need to obey dogma has been keeping the peasants since the dawn of history. For over 1,000 years the church was the most powerful land owner in Europe and even today religious institutions manage billions of dollars in assets. I don’t see mainstream US religious institutions as having any interest in convincing poor parishioners that they deserve a fair shake from their masters.

Fox News
Rupert Murdock’s PR machine

Wal-Mart
Not just Wal-Mart but the Wal-Mart model of business labor relations employed by many large retail/service based corporations in the U.S. Under the model there is a 2 pronged attack on the working poor. First, make every effort to discourage and prevent any form of organized labor including terminations & the treat of deportation.

The second prong is using a “net benefit analysis” in complying with state and Federal labor laws. Basically the company determines the cost of paying any DOL/State penalties associated with breaking labor laws with the costs of compliance. In most cases the cost of compliance would be higher so the decision is made to ignore the law and just pay any penalties that accrue for violating workers rights under the law.

The Terror Scare
Massive government spending within the Military Industrial Complex which based on the premise that “the Terrorists are everywhere” and may attack at any time on one hand, and using contractors to provide labor at the lowest cost on the other. The terror threat is worth spending $$$$ on Kevlar, but not on hiring the most qualified people for the job.

The national debt
The wealthy can insulate themselves from the negative impact of the national debt (interest rates, inflation, etc.) and it allows them to reduce taxes while increasing spending on products for which they receive the profits.

Minimum deposit amounts on CD’s
The better deal an investment is, the higher the minimum funding requirement.

Public primary and secondary schools.
Being from the west I thought this was a non issue, until I moved to NY and discovered that, public schools are for blacks and poor kids while everyone else goes to a private school.

 

[Bern80]

All Volunteer Military

I do support national service, only imperial powers require an All Volunteer military which includes non citizen. The reason is that the military can be used to further personal goals of the political leadership rather than interests of the nation. The reason for the outcry against the Vietnam War was the result of conscripted military being used to promote the interest of political and economic elites. With a Volunteer army questions about how the military is employed become much less vocal as military personnel are thought to have “volunteered”.

I think the reaction to reservists and national guardsmen’s resistance to deployment shows how far this “they signed up for it” mentality has been disseminated to the US public.

How do you 'require' a 'volunteer' military? The idea behind a volunteer military is that you have an army that is willing to fight. Can you imagine the insubordination issues of requiring some to serve against their will?

Cost of private university tuition

Not tuition costs per se, but the legacy program that insures marginally competent children of the wealth are insured seats at the nation’s most prestigious universities. Why should anyone attending Harvard Law need to take the NY state bar exam more than 3 times?

That would be rather difficult to prove. Beleive it or not their just aren't that many parents in a financial position to buy their children's way into school. Especially when academia today prides itself on the concept of diversity and haveing class rolls consisiting of people from all walks of life.

Payroll Taxes

The payroll tax is clearly regressive as it is caped for individuals earning more than 102,000. After 102,000 the amount in taxes paid is reduced in proportion to an individual’s income. It also only impacts individuals that work for a living, not those that benefit from the fruits of employee labor

It was intended to provide a form of minimum social insurance through the forced savings of a portion of employee wages, but as the nation is in a state of perpetual debt the Social Security Trust fund is meaningless.

On employee labor, again if you employ people you pay the other half of their payroll tax (along with your own) Again you obviously have never owned your own business or had employees. Another question that no one answers: We know for a fact that the top 20% of income earners provide 80% of the tax revenue. Yet your are complaining seemingly that still isn't enough. So how much is enough?

Religion
Convince people that their reward is in heaven and that they need to obey dogma has been keeping the peasants since the dawn of history. For over 1,000 years the church was the most powerful land owner in Europe and even today religious institutions manage billions of dollars in assets. I don’t see mainstream US religious institutions as having any interest in convincing poor parishioners that they deserve a fair shake from their masters.

Again this is totally baseless. One it isn't a church's job in any way shape or form to provide financial security of people. that isn't their role in society. No they don't have an interest in making poor people rich, nor do they have an interest in keeping rich people rich.

Fox News
Rupert Murdock’s PR machine

yes, a shred a balance in an industry of which 95% percent of it's members or on the other end of the spectrum is a horrible thing.

Wal-Mart
Not just Wal-Mart but the Wal-Mart model of business labor relations employed by many large retail/service based corporations in the U.S. Under the model there is a 2 pronged attack on the working poor. First, make every effort to discourage and prevent any form of organized labor including terminations & the treat of deportation.

Again your are playing victim on behalf of Wal-Mart employees. Do that is no favor to them. It can be good in cases where employers are truly treating employees unfairly, but that isn't the case in Wal-Mart. When you go to work for anyone, you have contract saying this is what we will pay you for this work. If you don't like the terms, DON'T WORK THERE.

Your problem is your refusal to look at this any other way then from a victim standpoint by saying things like they are "attacking the working poor". No one forces anyone to work at Wal-Mart. No should strive to make working for Wal-Mart their lifes acheivment. They pay based on the skill sets of their employees as most companies do. Don't give me this feigned indignation of the pay if you don't have the drive to improve your skill set beyond stacking shelves, ringing up sales or saying "shampoo is on aisle five".

The second prong is using a “net benefit analysis” in complying with state and Federal labor laws. Basically the company determines the cost of paying any DOL/State penalties associated with breaking labor laws with the costs of compliance. In most cases the cost of compliance would be higher so the decision is made to ignore the law and just pay any penalties that accrue for violating workers rights under the law.

can you provide specifics?

The Terror Scare
Massive government spending within the Military Industrial Complex which based on the premise that “the Terrorists are everywhere” and may attack at any time on one hand, and using contractors to provide labor at the lowest cost on the other. The terror threat is worth spending $$$$ on Kevlar, but not on hiring the most qualified people for the job.

Are you new to the concept of running a business? Is it doing things as inexpensively as possible kind of the point?

The national debt
The wealthy can insulate themselves from the negative impact of the national debt (interest rates, inflation, etc.) and it allows them to reduce taxes while increasing spending on products for which they receive the profits.

Yes they can. How does the fact that they were smart enough to insulate themselves from poor economic conditions translate into actually DOING something to the poor that prevents them from doing the same?

Public primary and secondary schools.
Being from the west I thought this was a non issue, until I moved to NY and discovered that, public schools are for blacks and poor kids while everyone else goes to a private school.

On public schools i take it you've never lived in any flyover state.

It is noted that you didn't feel inclined to respond to my actualy request. That is very telling. It shows that you are more interested in validating excuses than critically examining your own behavior.

 

[Care4all]

the top 20% provide for 80% of the INCOME TAXES NOT TAXES.

it is disingenuous to continually EXCLUDE all the taxes that are paid and only include a portion of taxes,(income taxes) that pays for ONLY 1/3 of our federal yearly budget.

care

 

[glockmail]

the top 20% provide for 80% of the INCOME TAXES NOT TAXES.

it is disingenuous to continually EXCLUDE all the taxes that are paid and only include a portion of taxes,(income taxes) that pays for ONLY 1/3 of our federal yearly budget.

care

Why is it disingenuous? Doesn't the top 20% end up paying most of the remaining 2/3?

 

[Care4all]

Why is it disingenuous? Doesn't the top 20% end up paying most of the remaining 2/3?

no, they don't.

 

[glockmail]

no, they don't.

Then who does?

 

[Care4all]

Then who does?

people who pay gas taxes, and liquor taxes, and cigarette taxes, and SOCIAL SECURITY TAXES, and the corporate taxes that are passed along to the consumer as your side states....

then there are state income taxes, and sales taxes, and property taxes, and state gas taxes and lottery tickets, and licence fees for hunting and driving etc... where the 2/3's of the bottom feeder citizens combine ALSO pay more than the top 20% just on sheer numbers....

ALL taxes should be considered....to take one portion of taxes like our income taxes where it is weighted towards those with higher incomes paying more taxes while not considering things like social security where people making millions like gates and buffet and heinz-kerry pay no taxes AT ALL, is just plain deceitful.

Care

 

[editec]

people who pay gas taxes, and liquor taxes, and cigarette taxes, and SOCIAL SECURITY TAXES, and the corporate taxes that are passed along to the consumer as your side states....

then there are state income taxes, and sales taxes, and property taxes, and state gas taxes and lottery tickets, and licence fees for hunting and driving etc... where the 2/3's of the bottom feeder citizens combine ALSO pay more than the top 20% just on sheer numbers....

ALL taxes should be considered....to take one portion of taxes like our income taxes where it is weighted towards those with higher incomes paying more taxes while not considering things like social security where people making millions like gates and buffet and heinz-kerry pay no taxes AT ALL, is just plain deceitful.

Care

Of course, it's decietful.

But then we're a society which is currently basing many of it policies on BIG LIEs, aren't we?

 

[Bern80]

people who pay gas taxes, and liquor taxes, and cigarette taxes, and SOCIAL SECURITY TAXES, and the corporate taxes that are passed along to the consumer as your side states....

then there are state income taxes, and sales taxes, and property taxes, and state gas taxes and lottery tickets, and licence fees for hunting and driving etc... where the 2/3's of the bottom feeder citizens combine ALSO pay more than the top 20% just on sheer numbers....

ALL taxes should be considered....to take one portion of taxes like our income taxes where it is weighted towards those with higher incomes paying more taxes while not considering things like social security where people making millions like gates and buffet and heinz-kerry pay no taxes AT ALL, is just plain deceitful.

Care

I realize there are other taxes out there. But it makes sense that they supply the bulk of those as well. They pay more sales tax for starters because they buy more expensive items.

Listen to yourself. You are completely ass backwards. You're complaining that people aren't paying enough taxes. Should the idea be to find ways for everybody to pay less taxes? Shouldn't the idea be to get government to actually stick to a budget and spend less?

 

[Care4all]

I realize there are other taxes out there. But it makes sense that they supply the bulk of those as well. They pay more sales tax for starters because they buy more expensive items.

Listen to yourself. You are completely ass backwards. You're complaining that people aren't paying enough taxes. Should the idea be to find ways for everybody to pay less taxes? Shouldn't the idea be to get government to actually stick to a budget and spend less?

YES, spending LESS should be the goal....

but we could make a 10% drop in spending for the next 8 years and WE STILL will be short and produce deficits, adding to the national debt.

And NO, the wealthy DO NOT spend more than all of the rest of us combined...we pay more in corporate taxes passed on to us in the price of the product and we pay more in sales taxes than the wealthy, even if they do buy more expensive things, just by the SHEER NUMBERS of all of us....

The wealthiest have benefitted from our gvt using SS surplus revenues for their general budget spending, to the tune of over 3 trillion dollars so far....Buffet pays zero in SS taxes...and others at the top pay a very low percentage if at all of SS taxes which ARE BEING USED to pay for things that income taxes should be paying...

care

 

[dilloduck]

YES, spending LESS should be the goal....

but we could make a 10% drop in spending for the next 8 years and WE STILL will be short and produce deficits, adding to the national debt.

And NO, the wealthy DO NOT spend more than all of the rest of us combined...we pay more in corporate taxes passed on to us in the price of the product and we pay more in sales taxes than the wealthy, even if they do buy more expensive things, just by the SHEER NUMBERS of all of us....

The wealthiest have benefitted from our gvt using SS surplus revenues for their general budget spending, to the tune of over 3 trillion dollars so far....Buffet pays zero in SS taxes...and others at the top pay a very low percentage if at all of SS taxes which ARE BEING USED to pay for things that income taxes should be paying...

care

We need nicer rich people so we can all be richer. Wealthiness is next to Godliness ya know !

 

[glockmail]

people who pay gas taxes, and liquor taxes, and cigarette taxes, and SOCIAL SECURITY TAXES, and the corporate taxes that are passed along to the consumer as your side states....

then there are state income taxes, and sales taxes, and property taxes, and state gas taxes and lottery tickets, and licence fees for hunting and driving etc... where the 2/3's of the bottom feeder citizens combine ALSO pay more than the top 20% just on sheer numbers....

ALL taxes should be considered....to take one portion of taxes like our income taxes where it is weighted towards those with higher incomes paying more taxes while not considering things like social security where people making millions like gates and buffet and heinz-kerry pay no taxes AT ALL, is just plain deceitful.

Care

With the possible exception of booze, smokes and lottery tickets, all of the other items that you listed are basically consumption taxes. Who do you think does most of the consuming?

 

[Care4all]

With the possible exception of booze, smokes and lottery tickets, all of the other items that you listed are basically consumption taxes. Who do you think does most of the consuming?

the 80% consume MUCH, MUCH MUCH MORE than the few at the top....as said, 280 million people will buy more than the 20 million at the top....no question on that!!!!