Stop trying to divide "Jews" from "Zionists."

[Wonky Pundit]

Oh sure. Any true Jew would not call themselves an "anti Zionist." That is ridiculous. Zionism is embedded as part of the Jewish faith. When a Jew marries part of the oath he swears is to never forget Jerusalem (Zion), when he/she prays it is towards Jerusalem, when he/she is buried it is towards Jerusalem, when the Messiah comes it will be in Zion, etc. And so on.

And I'm Superman. It's easy to be whoever you want to be on internet. LOL

Why the hell would I bother to lie about something like that?

Apart from which, I don't call myself either an anti-zionist or a zionist. I'm Jewish by ancestry only, and I no longer practice Judaism. (I've got nothing against it, but the rituals just don't mean much to me personally.) If you want to think that means I'm not a "true Jew," whatever that is, that's your business. I'm not ashamed of my background or my choices.

Everyone has the right to make those sorts of choices for themselves... until someone takes that right away.

Its less than 75 years since people took away from Jews like you the choice NOT to be a Jew.

I'm extremely well aware of that, thanks. I'm just not convinced that an artificial state in the Middle East was an appropriate reaction in the aftermath.

 

[TouchedByaUncle]

What about people that support Zionist but loathe Jews? I don't think we covered that flavor of ignorance and predjudice.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

"Judaism" is a religion, and a culture.

"Zionism" is a political opinion.

They are separate. Trying to combine the two makes your argument a logical fallacy.

More than 90% of those who are Jewish by religion or culture believe that Israel should exist as a Jewish State. Therefore, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists.

Trying to separate the two is an empirical fallacy.

95% of Blacks are registered Democrats. Does that make it "racist" to be a Republican?

 

[HistoryBefore67]

"Judaism" is a religion, and a culture.

"Zionism" is a political opinion.

They are separate. Trying to combine the two makes your argument a logical fallacy.

More than 90% of those who are Jewish by religion or culture believe that Israel should exist as a Jewish State. Therefore, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists.

Trying to separate the two is an empirical fallacy.

95% of Blacks are registered Democrats. Does that make it "racist" to be a Republican?

To quote one of my favorite movies, "How can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?"

95% of African-Americans are Democrats, however, most Democrats are not African-American.

By contrast, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists and the vast majority of Zionists are Jews.

Therefore, to be anti-Democrat does not equate to being anti-African-American, while being anti-Zionist, in most instances, is equivalent of being anti-Jew.

And if that logic escapes you, try this one on for size...

50% of all marriages end in divorce, but...
100% of all divorces begin with marriage.

HOW CAN THAT BE?

(In other words... don't play pseudo logic games with me and expect to get anywhere.)

 

[sealadaigh]

And all I see is a Jew hater trying to tarnish the memory of a great man. You may have not directly said it but you alluded to it, as though it was the thing "to do". Here's what you said:



So let me get this right, you think that Dr. King was a shallow person like you, who would have stopped supporting Israel, after "Exodus" stopped showing? Ha ha ha. Funny stuff.

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. - A Supporter of Israel - YouTube

if you want to know what i am saying, ask me...instead of trying to put words in my mouth.

what i am saying is that it is dishonest of you and lipset to tarnish the memory of everything this man stood for to suggest that the attitudes he expressed in 1968 towards israel would be the same he would express today.

the exodus comment was uncaalled for. it was basically a very brief and succinct summation of the emotions of the '60s and '70s and the complicated and tumultuous time. when did you come to america anyway?

Maybe you should stop putting words in Dr. Kings mouth and tarnish HIS memory. He said Israel is a democracy, and that anti Zionism is anti Semetism. It would be logical for him to continue this belief than to align himself with intolerant terrorist violent Islamists. That shoe just won't fit.

i didn't put any words in his mouth. it was a different time and place and i know thst what he said then is contrary to what he would say about israel today.

now again, who do you think king would align with today had he lived...jimmy carter, desmond tutu, nelson mandela alice walker, mairead corrigan or with people like ariel sharon and bibi netanyahu.

i don't think you have any idea what was going on in america in the sixties and seventies, and actually, a lot of anti-zionism in those days was anti-semitism.

you just don't get it. germany receives glowing praises rom many corners today. i would be extraordinarily dishonest were i to say those who proffered those praises firmly support the germany of the NAZIs.

would you like to hear all the wonderful things said about joe stalin and russia during WWII?

who suggested he would align with violent anything. i didn't but with you, it does seem to be one or the other.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

More than 90% of those who are Jewish by religion or culture believe that Israel should exist as a Jewish State. Therefore, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists.

Trying to separate the two is an empirical fallacy.

95% of Blacks are registered Democrats. Does that make it "racist" to be a Republican?

To quote one of my favorite movies, "How can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?"

95% of African-Americans are Democrats, however, most Democrats are not African-American.

By contrast, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists and the vast majority of Zionists are Jews.

Therefore, to be anti-Democrat does not equate to being anti-African-American, while being anti-Zionist, in most instances, is equivalent of being anti-Jew.

And if that logic escapes you, try this one on for size...

50% of all marriages end in divorce, but...
100% of all divorces begin with marriage.

HOW CAN THAT BE?

(In other words... don't play pseudo logic games with me and expect to get anywhere.)

I love it when people think they're using "logic".

The fact that two categories ("Jews" and "Zionists") are mostly overlapping does not in any way make them the same thing.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

95% of Blacks are registered Democrats. Does that make it "racist" to be a Republican?

To quote one of my favorite movies, "How can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?"

95% of African-Americans are Democrats, however, most Democrats are not African-American.

By contrast, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists and the vast majority of Zionists are Jews.

Therefore, to be anti-Democrat does not equate to being anti-African-American, while being anti-Zionist, in most instances, is equivalent of being anti-Jew.

And if that logic escapes you, try this one on for size...

50% of all marriages end in divorce, but...
100% of all divorces begin with marriage.

HOW CAN THAT BE?

(In other words... don't play pseudo logic games with me and expect to get anywhere.)

I love it when people think they're using "logic".

The fact that two categories ("Jews" and "Zionists") are mostly overlapping does not in any way make them the same thing.

Yeah, that's probably why I didn't say that they are the same thing and I did acknowlege that a small segment of Jews are not Zionists. But thanks for pointing out what I already said. Its very helpful.

And, yes, you are playing weak logic games in an effort to escape the undeniable point of this discussion: that most who speak of Zionists in hateful terms do so because they hate Jews, but think its more "politically correct" to use the term "Zionist."

 

[theDoctorisIn]

To quote one of my favorite movies, "How can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?"

95% of African-Americans are Democrats, however, most Democrats are not African-American.

By contrast, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists and the vast majority of Zionists are Jews.

Therefore, to be anti-Democrat does not equate to being anti-African-American, while being anti-Zionist, in most instances, is equivalent of being anti-Jew.

And if that logic escapes you, try this one on for size...

50% of all marriages end in divorce, but...
100% of all divorces begin with marriage.

HOW CAN THAT BE?

(In other words... don't play pseudo logic games with me and expect to get anywhere.)

I love it when people think they're using "logic".

The fact that two categories ("Jews" and "Zionists") are mostly overlapping does not in any way make them the same thing.

Yeah, that's probably why I didn't say that they are the same thing and I did acknowlege that a small segment of Jews are not Zionists. But thanks for pointing out what I already said. Its very helpful.

And, yes, you are playing weak logic games in an effort to escape the undeniable point of this discussion: that most who speak of Zionists in hateful terms do so because they hate Jews, but think its more "politically correct" to use the term "Zionist."

No, I'm explictly rejecting your premise. It's nonsense.

It's nothing more than a way to attack anyone who doesn't agree with the state of Israel as "anti-Semitic".

 

[HistoryBefore67]

I love it when people think they're using "logic".

The fact that two categories ("Jews" and "Zionists") are mostly overlapping does not in any way make them the same thing.

Yeah, that's probably why I didn't say that they are the same thing and I did acknowlege that a small segment of Jews are not Zionists. But thanks for pointing out what I already said. Its very helpful.

And, yes, you are playing weak logic games in an effort to escape the undeniable point of this discussion: that most who speak of Zionists in hateful terms do so because they hate Jews, but think its more "politically correct" to use the term "Zionist."

No, I'm explictly rejecting your premise. It's nonsense.

It's nothing more than a way to attack anyone who doesn't agree with the state of Israel as "anti-Semitic".

Really? That's what I said?

Wow.

So when I disagreed with the State of Israel's decision to apologize to Turkey for the flotilla incident, I guess that means I was being an anti-Semite.

Who knew?

I think you should swim back to the shallow end of the pool. You're drowning here.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Yeah, that's probably why I didn't say that they are the same thing and I did acknowlege that a small segment of Jews are not Zionists. But thanks for pointing out what I already said. Its very helpful.

And, yes, you are playing weak logic games in an effort to escape the undeniable point of this discussion: that most who speak of Zionists in hateful terms do so because they hate Jews, but think its more "politically correct" to use the term "Zionist."

No, I'm explictly rejecting your premise. It's nonsense.

It's nothing more than a way to attack anyone who doesn't agree with the state of Israel as "anti-Semitic".

Really? That's what I said?

Wow.

So when I disagreed with the State of Israel's decision to apologize to Turkey for the flotilla incident, I guess that means I was being an anti-Semite.

Who knew?

I think you should swim back to the shallow end of the pool. You're drowning here.

I meant people who disagree with the existence of the State of Israel. Apologies if I wasn't clear.

Your entire argument is that when people attack "Zionists", they are attacking "Jews" in general - and while that might be occasionally true, it's certainly not the universal that you're attempting to claim it is.

You are using that claim to then attack all anti-Zionists as "Jew-haters".

 

[sealadaigh]

More than 90% of those who are Jewish by religion or culture believe that Israel should exist as a Jewish State. Therefore, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists.

Trying to separate the two is an empirical fallacy.

95% of Blacks are registered Democrats. Does that make it "racist" to be a Republican?

To quote one of my favorite movies, "How can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?"

95% of African-Americans are Democrats, however, most Democrats are not African-American.

By contrast, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists and the vast majority of Zionists are Jews.

Therefore, to be anti-Democrat does not equate to being anti-African-American, while being anti-Zionist, in most instances, is equivalent of being anti-Jew.

And if that logic escapes you, try this one on for size...

50% of all marriages end in divorce, but...
100% of all divorces begin with marriage.

HOW CAN THAT BE?

(In other words... don't play pseudo logic games with me and expect to get anywhere.)

that logic doesn't escape me, nor does the sheer stupidity of it.

all you are saying is that zionist is another word for jew. now, i imagine there are those who do not believe in religious states, particularly in europe and america and zionism advocates a religious state in essence. you have just managed to swell the ranks of anti-simites by imponderable multiples.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Your entire argument is that when people attack "Zionists", they are attacking "Jews" in general - and while that might be occasionally true, it's certainly not the universal that you're attempting to claim it is.

You're getting warmer now, you've just declined to accept the truth. Most who attack Zionists do so because they want to attack Jews without saying they hate Jews. There are exceptions, but that is the majority.

You are using that claim to then attack all anti-Zionists as "Jew-haters".

No, not "all."

But when I read posts (here and elsewhere) by people who constantly talk about the "evils" of Zionism, but never criticize the "evils" of other regimes throughout the world, I have to ask: why single out Israel? The answer is pretty obvious. There is a lot of anti-Semitism in this world.

 

[Roudy]

Yeah, that's probably why I didn't say that they are the same thing and I did acknowlege that a small segment of Jews are not Zionists. But thanks for pointing out what I already said. Its very helpful.

And, yes, you are playing weak logic games in an effort to escape the undeniable point of this discussion: that most who speak of Zionists in hateful terms do so because they hate Jews, but think its more "politically correct" to use the term "Zionist."

No, I'm explictly rejecting your premise. It's nonsense.

It's nothing more than a way to attack anyone who doesn't agree with the state of Israel as "anti-Semitic".

Really? That's what I said?

Wow.

So when I disagreed with the State of Israel's decision to apologize to Turkey for the flotilla incident, I guess that means I was being an anti-Semite.

Who knew?

I think you should swim back to the shallow end of the pool. You're drowning here.

Pay attention and don't play dumb. Disagreeing with Israeli policies isn't anti Zionism, just as disagreeing with American policies isn't anti Americanism. Anti Zionism by definition means you disagree with the right of Israel to exist. And vast majority of those that think like that, are anti Semites, no surprise.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

all you are saying is that zionist is another word for jew. now, i imagine there are those who do not believe in religious states, particularly in europe and america and zionism advocates a religious state in essence. you have just managed to swell the ranks of anti-simites by imponderable multiples.

If that's what you think I said then I'll be happy to refer you to a remedial English class, because clearly you don't comprehend the words you read.

 

[Roudy]

Now you've just met one. I also have several friends and family members who believe the same thing, and I wouldn't call any one of us "zionists."

Oh sure. Any true Jew would not call themselves an "anti Zionist." That is ridiculous. Zionism is embedded as part of the Jewish faith. When a Jew marries part of the oath he swears is to never forget Jerusalem (Zion), when he/she prays it is towards Jerusalem, when he/she is buried it is towards Jerusalem, when the Messiah comes it will be in Zion, etc. And so on.

And I'm Superman. It's easy to be whoever you want to be on internet. LOL

Why the hell would I bother to lie about something like that?

Apart from which, I don't call myself either an anti-zionist or a zionist. I'm Jewish by ancestry only, and I no longer practice Judaism. (I've got nothing against it, but the rituals just don't mean much to me personally.) If you want to think that means I'm not a "true Jew," whatever that is, that's your business. I'm not ashamed of my background or my choices.

Oh then you're an atheist, that explains it. Case closed.

 

[sealadaigh]

No, I'm explictly rejecting your premise. It's nonsense.

It's nothing more than a way to attack anyone who doesn't agree with the state of Israel as "anti-Semitic".

Really? That's what I said?

Wow.

So when I disagreed with the State of Israel's decision to apologize to Turkey for the flotilla incident, I guess that means I was being an anti-Semite.

Who knew?

I think you should swim back to the shallow end of the pool. You're drowning here.

Pay attention and don't play dumb. Disagreeing with Israeli policies isn't anti Zionism, just as disagreeing with American policies isn't anti Americanism. Anti Zionism by definition means you disagree with the right of Israel to exist. And vast majority of those that think like that, are anti Semites, no surprise.

again, please describe in general terms applicable to all peoples the rules justifying the state of israel...like "people with a religious belief have a right to arbitrarily pick a point in time where they once lived and then displace the native population, many of whom have families that have lived there for centuries."

besides, you all are squimin'. you are moving the meanoing of what you claimed anti-zionism was a few years ago, i.e. being against israeli policy, to being against israel. hardly anyone is fooled by these deceptions anymore.

 

[toastman]

Really? That's what I said?

Wow.

So when I disagreed with the State of Israel's decision to apologize to Turkey for the flotilla incident, I guess that means I was being an anti-Semite.

Who knew?

I think you should swim back to the shallow end of the pool. You're drowning here.

Pay attention and don't play dumb. Disagreeing with Israeli policies isn't anti Zionism, just as disagreeing with American policies isn't anti Americanism. Anti Zionism by definition means you disagree with the right of Israel to exist. And vast majority of those that think like that, are anti Semites, no surprise.

again, please describe in general terms applicable to all peoples the rules justifying the state of israel...like "people with a religious belief have a right to arbitrarily pick a point in time where they once lived and then displace the native population, many of whom have families that have lived there for centuries."

besides, you all are squimin'. you are moving the meanoing of what you claimed anti-zionism was a few years ago, i.e. being against israeli policy, to being against israel. hardly anyone is fooled by these deceptions anymore.

The bold is just more Arab propaganda lies. What proof do you have to back that up ???

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Really? That's what I said?

Wow.

So when I disagreed with the State of Israel's decision to apologize to Turkey for the flotilla incident, I guess that means I was being an anti-Semite.

Who knew?

I think you should swim back to the shallow end of the pool. You're drowning here.

Pay attention and don't play dumb. Disagreeing with Israeli policies isn't anti Zionism, just as disagreeing with American policies isn't anti Americanism. Anti Zionism by definition means you disagree with the right of Israel to exist. And vast majority of those that think like that, are anti Semites, no surprise.

again, please describe in general terms applicable to all peoples the rules justifying the state of israel...like "people with a religious belief have a right to arbitrarily pick a point in time where they once lived and then displace the native population, many of whom have families that have lived there for centuries."

besides, you all are squimin'. you are moving the meanoing of what you claimed anti-zionism was a few years ago, i.e. being against israeli policy, to being against israel. hardly anyone is fooled by these deceptions anymore.

Here's the problem, Pinniped...

I've been here for only a short while, but I've already noticed your pattern. You like to take things that people post, repackage them as something else, and then ask people to respond to the "strawman" you've created.

I have one word to describe your method of discourse: tiresome.

If you want to comment on something I've posted, please do so. If you simply want to play the strawman game and regurgitate your talking points, I'm not interested.

 

[sealadaigh]

all you are saying is that zionist is another word for jew. now, i imagine there are those who do not believe in religious states, particularly in europe and america and zionism advocates a religious state in essence. you have just managed to swell the ranks of anti-simites by imponderable multiples.

If that's what you think I said then I'll be happy to refer you to a remedial English class, because clearly you don't comprehend the words you read.

i comprehend very well thank you. you are just getting your hat handed to you. you are saying zionists are jews and jews are zionists. then you are saying anti-zionists are anti-jews, or anti-semites. i think you can be against the political beliefs of a group regardless of the ethnicity or religion of that group.

don't play word games with me.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

all you are saying is that zionist is another word for jew. now, i imagine there are those who do not believe in religious states, particularly in europe and america and zionism advocates a religious state in essence. you have just managed to swell the ranks of anti-simites by imponderable multiples.

If that's what you think I said then I'll be happy to refer you to a remedial English class, because clearly you don't comprehend the words you read.

i comprehend very well thank you. you are just getting your hat handed to you. you are saying zionists are jews and jews are zionists. then you are saying anti-zionists are anti-jews, or anti-semites. i think you can be against the political beliefs of a group regardless of the ethnicity or religion of that group.

don't play word games with me.

Yawn.

Wake me up when you have some new material.