Surge this!

[red states rule]

Watch the video from his report - if you dare

http://newsbusters.org/node/12261

 

[Rosotar]

You trust them when they ignore the facts and publish the daily DNC talking points

Still waiting for you to actually post some "facts" RSR.

 

[maineman]

You trust them when they ignore the facts and publish the daily DNC talking points

My only point is....you can either castigate the NYT as a liberal rag, or you can quote it as a trusted source. You don't get to do both.

take your fucking pick. or shut your fucking piehole.

 

[ErikViking]

is that some special form of lightning?

and do you have anything to add of any substance to my post other than one misspelled word?

#131 & #132?

 

[maineman]

• Ignoring a world opinion and the UN, America with a few allies decide to invade Iraq. The reason and the timing was Saddam Husseins access to WMD.
  I am glad you recognize that the reason for war was clearly saddam's supposed stockpiles of WMD's.... without the scary threat of mushroom clouds over American cities, the American people would never have supported the invasion of a country that had nothing to do with attacking us on 9/11
  
  
• A very effective invasion was carried out. In just a few weeks the war was won. The search for WMD however gave no result and frustration grew.
  no kidding
  
  
• The label for the war was changed to be about more than WMD. An extension of the war on terror and freeing the people of Iraq.
  changing labels for a war felt a lot like the old "bait and switch" I do not see the enlightened self interest of the United States that is served by expending hundreds of billions of dollars and suffering 28K dead and wounded Americans for a humanitarian cause in someone else's country and backyard..... especially when we've got a war to fight against islamic extremists that we have been all but ignoring since March of '03
  
  
• America makes a promise to the world and the people of Iraq that they will not be abandoned. The whole effort is now called "Iraq freedom".
  "if we stop fighting the terrorists in Iraq, they would be free to plot and plan attacks elsewhere, in America and other free nations. To retreat now would betray our mission, our word and our friends."
  When the Iraqi people starting killing us, the deal is off... the right loves to make the "enemy" in Iraq "terrorists" when, in fact, the VAST majority of folks doing the killing of Americans and doing the killing of Iraqi civilians are indigenous Iraqis. It is not a "retreat" in any sense of the word. We shocked, awed, invaded, conquered and occupied Iraq... we helped them write a cobnstitution and hold elections, and lynch their former leader...if they wanna fight one another, that is none of our damned business!
  
• Time passes and the struggle for stability renders thousands of deaths. American casualties are low, but opinion at home starts to shift.
  Sorry.... they are only "low" if you haven't had to bury anyone you know. From my perspective....ANY dead Americans in the cause of Iraqi freedom is too many.... if they want freedom, let them earn it ...let them spill THEIR OWN blood. There is NOTHING that American gets from this war other than more enemies and further behind in the war against the folks who attacked us.
  
  
• Democrats try to win votes domestically by using the shift in opinions. To get the support of people who do support this effort the democrats now claim the war has to be faught elsewhere.
  it is not some "claim"...it is reality. We have enemies.... we know who attacked us.... we know the ideology behind the people who attacked us... it is neither sunni baathism or shia theocracy.... the war in Iraq is NOT a war against our enemies, but a war against the people of Iraq who are becoming our enemies and are being joined by handfuls of deadenders (to quote our illustrious Veep) of our real enemy sent to stir up the pot and keep us pinned down in Iraq so we don't go after them elsewhere and so we continue to stay in Iraq pissing off the muslims of the world, making more enemies and more recruits for the guys who attacked us.
  
  
• Again the effort gets a new label. This time it is "stupid". Promises are easy to break and they can now ask the question of how civil war in Iraq can be of their business. They "want out".
  again... our humanitarian mission of goody goodness to the Iraqi people gets called off when the Iraqi people start killing us. Promise rescinded. Adios
  
  
• The cynisism and arrogance of the democrats lifts to new heights. Suddenly It is up to the Iraqs themselves, but while the betrayed and innocent people die they can at least take some comfort in this:
  
  1. A piece of paper the Americans left behind is called "Constitution".
  2. There are no substancial deaths since all American soldiers have left.

why has it ever been up to anyone else BUT the Iraqis? When we fought OUR war of independence....did the French storm ashore en masse, whip the British, continue to occupy the colonies, "help" us write a constitution, "help" us hold elections, hold our hand as we figured out how to be a country? Why do we need to do that for the Iraqis? WHy, when they are KILLING US, would you attempt to portray our actions as "betraying them"? And I would imagine that there WILL be Iraqi deaths after we leave. I would imagine that that will happen no matter how long we stay. Sunnis and shiites are determined to get it on and they will go through some carnage until both sides have a belly full of it... and that will happen when we leave - if we leave in 2007 or 2015.... the only REAL difference will be OUR body count

 

[ErikViking]

A good reply, I would have expected nothing less!

• Ignoring a world opinion and the UN, America with a few allies decide to invade Iraq. The reason and the timing was Saddam Husseins access to WMD.
  I am glad you recognize that the reason for war was clearly saddam's supposed stockpiles of WMD's.... without the scary threat of mushroom clouds over American cities, the American people would never have supported the invasion of a country that had nothing to do with attacking us on 9/11
  I don't know exactly what you mean here... seems to matter less though.
  
  
• The label for the war was changed to be about more than WMD. An extension of the war on terror and freeing the people of Iraq.
  changing labels for a war felt a lot like the old "bait and switch" I do not see the enlightened self interest of the United States that is served by expending hundreds of billions of dollars and suffering 28K dead and wounded Americans for a humanitarian cause in someone else's country and backyard..... especially when we've got a war to fight against islamic extremists that we have been all but ignoring since March of '03
  Yet, America went on doing just that. Are you saying people were fooled somehow into supporting this?
  
  
• America makes a promise to the world and the people of Iraq that they will not be abandoned. The whole effort is now called "Iraq freedom".
  "if we stop fighting the terrorists in Iraq, they would be free to plot and plan attacks elsewhere, in America and other free nations. To retreat now would betray our mission, our word and our friends."
  When the Iraqi people starting killing us, the deal is off... the right loves to make the "enemy" in Iraq "terrorists" when, in fact, the VAST majority of folks doing the killing of Americans and doing the killing of Iraqi civilians are indigenous Iraqis. It is not a "retreat" in any sense of the word. We shocked, awed, invaded, conquered and occupied Iraq... we helped them write a cobnstitution and hold elections, and lynch their former leader...if they wanna fight one another, that is none of our damned business!
  The "deal off" thing doesn't hold. So America met opposition? The religios fractions of Iraq wasn't a secret, strategyst knew exactly what they were facing. The quotes from your own presidents web site tells the story.
  
  
• Time passes and the struggle for stability renders thousands of deaths. American casualties are low, but opinion at home starts to shift.
  Sorry.... they are only "low" if you haven't had to bury anyone you know. From my perspective....ANY dead Americans in the cause of Iraqi freedom is too many.... if they want freedom, let them earn it ...let them spill THEIR OWN blood. There is NOTHING that American gets from this war other than more enemies and further behind in the war against the folks who attacked us.
  I know. I was deliberatly being a bit provocative. For every dead American lies thousands of Iraqies. Most innocent. Their blood was spilled - some supporting you - some not.
  
  
• Democrats try to win votes domestically by using the shift in opinions. To get the support of people who do support this effort the democrats now claim the war has to be faught elsewhere.
  it is not some "claim"...it is reality. We have enemies.... we know who attacked us.... we know the ideology behind the people who attacked us... it is neither sunni baathism or shia theocracy.... the war in Iraq is NOT a war against our enemies, but a war against the people of Iraq who are becoming our enemies and are being joined by handfuls of deadenders (to quote our illustrious Veep) of our real enemy sent to stir up the pot and keep us pinned down in Iraq so we don't go after them elsewhere and so we continue to stay in Iraq pissing off the muslims of the world, making more enemies and more recruits for the guys who attacked us.
  You know there is a flips side here. The long trail of unresolved end you leave behind will cause you problem. But I do agree, your resources could probably be used better, no doubt.
  
  
• Again the effort gets a new label. This time it is "stupid". Promises are easy to break and they can now ask the question of how civil war in Iraq can be of their business. They "want out".
  again... our humanitarian mission of goody goodness to the Iraqi people gets called off when the Iraqi people start killing us. Promise rescinded. Adios
  I see that the promise is broken for a reason. The people of Iraq broke their "Please invade us" contract first.

why has it ever been up to anyone else BUT the Iraqis?
Ever since America choosed it to be. Ever since then.

When we fought OUR war of independence....did the French storm ashore en masse, whip the British, continue to occupy the colonies, "help" us write a constitution, "help" us hold elections, hold our hand as we figured out how to be a country?

Aaawh... COME on? Can we drop that?

Why do we need to do that for the Iraqis? WHy, when they are KILLING US, would you attempt to portray our actions as "betraying them"? And I would imagine that there WILL be Iraqi deaths after we leave. I would imagine that that will happen no matter how long we stay. Sunnis and shiites are determined to get it on and they will go through some carnage until both sides have a belly full of it... and that will happen when we leave - if we leave in 2007 or 2015.... the only REAL difference will be OUR body count

Okay fine. I know what you mean and I do understand.

BUT

You Have Made A Promise

There were no strings to it. No hidden facts, nothing surpricing about the situation that has evolved. Where next will you take your army for reason "A", promise "B" and do "C"? What people have to suffer next because of your unwillingness to take responsability?

 

[maineman]

A good reply, I would have expected nothing less!

Okay fine. I know what you mean and I do understand.

BUT

You Have Made A Promise

There were no strings to it. No hidden facts, nothing surpricing about the situation that has evolved. Where next will you take your army for reason "A", promise "B" and do "C"? What people have to suffer next because of your unwillingness to take responsability?

If you make a promise to your next door neighbor that you will help him train his young labrador retriever, and then, after you start the training process, your neighbor kills YOUR pet poodle and then kills your daughter, you no longer have a moral obligation to train that lab puppy after that.

As Tom Friedman said the other night, America has put itself in the unenviable, no-win situation of being the protector of the sunnis - and the target of the sunnis..... and the protector of the shiites - and the target of the shiites.

FUCK THAT. We got rid of Saddam.... we held their hands while they wrote a constitution and held not one not two but THREE fucking elections. We have suffered 28 THOUSAND dead and wounded soldiers - the vast majority of whom have been killed by the very people you think we have some sacred responsibility to. Bullshit. They are killing US... Iraqis are killing US. We don't owe Iraqis shit. We have flushed a trillion dollars down the shitter...we have put 3334 proud and brave young americans in their graves.... I had the sad honor to carry the casket of ONE of them and that was too many.

 

[maineman]

"Yet, America went on doing just that. Are you saying people were fooled somehow into supporting this?"
that is exactly what I am saying. I am saying that if George Bush had said we need to go invade Iraq and kick Saddam out of office as a humanitarian gesture to the poor folks of Iraq.... and admitted right up front that there was no certainty that Iraq had any Weapons that could hurt us and no evidence whatsoever that Iraq had fuckall to do with 9/11...I do NOT think that America would have supported such a war.

 

[maineman]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18312789/

folks like RSR try to paint those of us who want us OUT of Iraq as being OUT of the mainstream.

The Wall Street Journal Poll linked above would tend to indicate that it is the koolaid soaked Bushlickers like RSR who are out of the mainstream.

 

[red states rule]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18312789/

folks like RSR try to paint those of us who want us OUT of Iraq as being OUT of the mainstream.

The Wall Street Journal Poll linked above would tend to indicate that it is the koolaid soaked Bushlickers like RSR who are out of the mainstream.

Polls once showed people thought the world was flat

 

[maineman]

Polls once showed people thought the world was flat

and polls now show that most folks have figured out that the world is round.

Similarly, polls once showed that Americans believed the bullshit fromthe Bushies that Saddam had shitloads of WMD's, that he was in cahoots with Osama, and that he was a real and immediate danger to the US....

and polls now show that most folks have figured out that the world is round.

 

[red states rule]

and polls now show that most folks have figured out that the world is round.

Similarly, polls once showed that Americans believed the bullshit fromthe Bushies that Saddam had shitloads of WMD's, that he was in cahoots with Osama, and that he was a real and immediate danger to the US....

and polls now show that most folks have figured out that the world is round.

Dems have allowed the arrogrance to take over, and they are showing theior true colors - yellow thru and thru

 

[ErikViking]

If you make a promise to your next door neighbor that you will help him train his young labrador retriever, and then, after you start the training process, your neighbor kills YOUR pet poodle and then kills your daughter, you no longer have a moral obligation to train that lab puppy after that.

Bad example, indeed. Maybe such simplifications led to this situation in the first place?

As Tom Friedman said the other night, America has put itself in the unenviable, no-win situation of being the protector of the sunnis - and the target of the sunnis..... and the protector of the shiites - and the target of the shiites.

FUCK THAT. We got rid of Saddam.... we held their hands while they wrote a constitution and held not one not two but THREE fucking elections. We have suffered 28 THOUSAND dead and wounded soldiers - the vast majority of whom have been killed by the very people you think we have some sacred responsibility to. Bullshit. They are killing US... Iraqis are killing US. We don't owe Iraqis shit. We have flushed a trillion dollars down the shitter...we have put 3334 proud and brave young americans in their graves.... I had the sad honor to carry the casket of ONE of them and that was too many.

It must feel terrible to have to go thrught that. As I said before I do understand. And I suppose I might feel the same thing. But that doesn't take away the American responsability. What would you say is the biggest difference between 9/11 and this war? Wait. Try explaining it to a child who lost his parents in a Tomahawk strike. Can you manage that without he grows up hating America? Yes. If you stay. And show. What America is actually about.
Don't get me wrong - I see the differance - but the people who has suffered are no less important than the American soldiers.

"Yet, America went on doing just that. Are you saying people were fooled somehow into supporting this?"
that is exactly what I am saying. I am saying that if George Bush had said we need to go invade Iraq and kick Saddam out of office as a humanitarian gesture to the poor folks of Iraq.... and admitted right up front that there was no certainty that Iraq had any Weapons that could hurt us and no evidence whatsoever that Iraq had fuckall to do with 9/11...I do NOT think that America would have supported such a war.

And America calls N.Koera a rouge state?

 

[maineman]

Dems have allowed the arrogrance to take over, and they are showing theior true colors - yellow thru and thru

we're not afraid of anything. we see no reason to postpone the war against islamic extremism while we babysit the Iraqis in the middle of their sectarian squabble.

we shocked them...we awed them... we invaded them...we conquered them...we helped them apprehend and lynch their former dictator....we helped them write a constitution...we have spent four years training their army and police forces... we have held their hands through three elections.... and now we are being killed by members of both sides of a sectarian struggle with roots older than our nation and the entire effort is costing us men money and time and distracting us from the real fight against the real enemy. If you ask me, it is the republicans that are afraid to admit to the american people that they have utterly failed to advance the war against our attackers in the years since 9/11.

 

[maineman]

Bad example, indeed. Maybe such simplifications led to this situation in the first place?

bad example because YOU say it's bad? I disagree. We have no moral obligation to continue to protect a civilian population in a foreign land when that same civilian population is killing us.


It must feel terrible to have to go thrught that. As I said before I do understand. And I suppose I might feel the same thing. But that doesn't take away the American responsability. What would you say is the biggest difference between 9/11 and this war? Wait. Try explaining it to a child who lost his parents in a Tomahawk strike. Can you manage that without he grows up hating America? Yes. If you stay. And show. What America is actually about.
Don't get me wrong - I see the differance - but the people who has suffered are no less important than the American soldiers.

the longer we stay, the more Iraqi children will grow up hating us.... we are doing no good...the sectarian squabble will continue when we leave whenever we leave.... the only difference will be the size of OUR body count



And America calls N.Koera a rouge state?

actually we call it a "rogue" state, although that little napolean-esque weirdo running the joint probably wears rouge. But what does that have to do with the fact that Bush hyped the case for war based upon WMD's and a 9/11 connection and America would have never supported a war to save the poor Iraqi people from the scourge of Saddam?

 

[ErikViking]

Bad example, indeed. Maybe such simplifications led to this situation in the first place?

bad example because YOU say it's bad? I disagree. We have no moral obligation to continue to protect a civilian population in a foreign land when that same civilian population is killing us.
Well it is bad because it implies that the question is simple. It isn't. Alot of support for this American effort exist due to the promise. Not all Iraqies want America out. Iraqies in exile can't return as it is. The picture isn't the same in the whole if Iraq. Progress has been made. Other nations has contributed in the task you officially set up. The greyish world doesn't fit in to your dog dead/dog alive scenario. That is why the example is bad.
I think you DO have a moral obligation, but perhaps not a practical one anymore.
It must feel terrible to have to go thrught that. As I said before I do understand. And I suppose I might feel the same thing. But that doesn't take away the American responsability. What would you say is the biggest difference between 9/11 and this war? Wait. Try explaining it to a child who lost his parents in a Tomahawk strike. Can you manage that without he grows up hating America? Yes. If you stay. And show. What America is actually about.
Don't get me wrong - I see the differance - but the people who has suffered are no less important than the American soldiers.

the longer we stay, the more Iraqi children will grow up hating us.... we are doing no good...the sectarian squabble will continue when we leave whenever we leave.... the only difference will be the size of OUR body count
We can't exactly test this. The history gives mixed answeres to it. If you thought it was best for Iraq that America left we could discuss that. But you openly says you have no interest in Iraq, ONLY American casualties count.


And America calls N.Koera a rouge state?

actually we call it a "rogue" state, although that little napolean-esque weirdo running the joint probably wears rouge. But what does that have to do with the fact that Bush hyped the case for war based upon WMD's and a 9/11 connection and America would have never supported a war to save the poor Iraqi people from the scourge of Saddam?

Yeah... I know!

It does! Because if YOU (maineman) invalidate every reason for the war and NOW think it is none of your business anymore you have acomplished this:

For no reason attacked a soverign state.
Killed thousands of civilians.
Killed their leader.
Left the country in chaos.

All because the war was "hyped". That is a rogue-like behaviour. You can't explain or defend your actions - it just happened! It was that other presidents doings! In short: You are not trustworthy.

 

[maineman]

You think we have a moral obligation to Iraq. I am saying that I disagree. We shocked, awed, invade, conquered, occupied them...we helped them write a constitution, we held their hands for three elections, we trained their military at least as much as we have trained our own soldiers we send to fight in their country... and they are now killing us. Thus endeth the moral obligation. period.

Do Iraqi casaulties "COUNT" for me? Of course they do.... children dying of AIDS in Africa "COUNT" for me.... "no man is an island" and all that... yada yada yada.... We have a war to fight against the people who attacked us and who still wish to do us harm. Protecting America is the first and primary responsibility of this government. It would be goody goody good if we had unlimited resources and we could save everyone aid every blind old lady across every crowded intersection and help every kitten out of every tree across the globe.... but we don't. Sunnis and shiites have been spoiling for a fight in Iraq for a long long time....and mark my words, they will have it.... sooner or later. Despite ANY and ALL efforts of Uncle Sam to get them to put down their weapons and put aside their millenium old hatred and gather together for a big group hug and three choruses of 'kumbaya', they will have it.

We, I guess, have done SOME good in Iraq.... Saddam is deposed and legally lynched.... they have a constitution now...they have had three elections.... now it's time for us to go...and it is especially time for us to go when the people we are dying to protect are killing us.

 

[ErikViking]

You think we have a moral obligation to Iraq. I am saying that I disagree. We shocked, awed, invade, conquered, occupied them...we helped them write a constitution, we held their hands for three elections, we trained their military at least as much as we have trained our own soldiers we send to fight in their country... and they are now killing us. Thus endeth the moral obligation. period.

Do Iraqi casaulties "COUNT" for me? Of course they do.... children dying of AIDS in Africa "COUNT" for me.... "no man is an island" and all that... yada yada yada.... We have a war to fight against the people who attacked us and who still wish to do us harm. Protecting America is the first and primary responsibility of this government. It would be goody goody good if we had unlimited resources and we could save everyone aid every blind old lady across every crowded intersection and help every kitten out of every tree across the globe.... but we don't. Sunnis and shiites have been spoiling for a fight in Iraq for a long long time....and mark my words, they will have it.... sooner or later. Despite ANY and ALL efforts of Uncle Sam to get them to put down their weapons and put aside their millenium old hatred and gather together for a big group hug and three choruses of 'kumbaya', they will have it.

We, I guess, have done SOME good in Iraq.... Saddam is deposed and legally lynched.... they have a constitution now...they have had three elections.... now it's time for us to go...and it is especially time for us to go when the people we are dying to protect are killing us.

Yeah, I guess we can close for now. It think we know where we stand.

Good discussion though!

I can't help my self typing:

"Would you mind use that fierceful army of yours with a bit more thoughtfulness in the future?"

 

[red states rule]

we're not afraid of anything. we see no reason to postpone the war against islamic extremism while we babysit the Iraqis in the middle of their sectarian squabble.

we shocked them...we awed them... we invaded them...we conquered them...we helped them apprehend and lynch their former dictator....we helped them write a constitution...we have spent four years training their army and police forces... we have held their hands through three elections.... and now we are being killed by members of both sides of a sectarian struggle with roots older than our nation and the entire effort is costing us men money and time and distracting us from the real fight against the real enemy. If you ask me, it is the republicans that are afraid to admit to the american people that they have utterly failed to advance the war against our attackers in the years since 9/11.

Dems are scared to death of victory

that is why they snubbed Gen General David Petraeus's briefings

 

[maineman]

Dems are scared to death of victory

that is why they snubbed Gen General David Petraeus's briefings

do you EVER have anything other than catcalls to offer this site?

Nobody is SCARED of victory. We just have a different definition of what victory - and defeat - entails. Leaving Iraqis who are killing US AND each other to solve their own problems after providing them with an enormous amount of assistance in terms of finding and helping to execute their former dictator, helping them write a constitution... holding their hands through three elections..training their army.... mission accomplished. They want to fight one another and they want to kill us. We have reason to be in the middle of that.