Tax the Rich: Fix Jobs and Deficits

[ba1614]

You're also predictable. But thanks for admitting the government is a parasite.

Warren isn't a parasite, he makes his own money, he doesn't have to steal it.
He is a clown for calling for higher tax rates.

So it's fair that a person who makes say $60,000 a year has to pay more percentage wise in taxes then millionaires and billionaires?

I'd rather see a system where everybody paid the same percentage then a "regressive" tax system. Hell, we're supposed to be using a progressive tax system I thought...

Yet raising the tax rate on the rich does nothing to alleviate this particular problem. We need to fix the tax SYSTEM, not play the social warfare that we are playing today.

Exactly, fix the tax code so business has incentive to make decisions based on growing their business, not decisions to get around the ever increasing taxes and regulations.

 

[editec]

So it's fair that a person who makes say $60,000 a year has to pay more percentage wise in taxes then millionaires and billionaires?

I'd rather see a system where everybody paid the same percentage then a "regressive" tax system. Hell, we're supposed to be using a progressive tax system I thought...

Yet raising the tax rate on the rich does nothing to alleviate this particular problem. We need to fix the tax SYSTEM, not play the social warfare that we are playing today.

Exactly, fix the tax code so business has incentive to make decisions based on growing their business, not decisions to get around the ever increasing taxes and regulations.

Changing the TAX code won't solve the problem.

 

[Urkie]

You're also predictable. But thanks for admitting the government is a parasite.

Warren isn't a parasite, he makes his own money, he doesn't have to steal it.
He is a clown for calling for higher tax rates.

So it's fair that a person who makes say $60,000 a year has to pay more percentage wise in taxes then millionaires and billionaires?

I'd rather see a system where everybody paid the same percentage then a "regressive" tax system. Hell, we're supposed to be using a progressive tax system I thought...

Yet raising the tax rate on the rich does nothing to alleviate this particular problem. We need to fix the tax SYSTEM, not play the social warfare that we are playing today.

I can agree with that. There are too many loopholes in the system right now because the tax code is over 1000 pages. It needs to be less complex and fair. When the progressive tax was put in, it was meant to actually be a progressive tax system. With the loopholes right now, that is not the case.

 

[georgephillip]

Yet raising the tax rate on the rich does nothing to alleviate this particular problem. We need to fix the tax SYSTEM, not play the social warfare that we are playing today.

Exactly, fix the tax code so business has incentive to make decisions based on growing their business, not decisions to get around the ever increasing taxes and regulations.

Changing the TAX code won't solve the problem.

Even Bubba gets it at some levels, but he never connects the dots between today's economy and his own policy of radical deregulation:

"The real thing that has killed us in the last 10 years is that too much of our dealmaking creativity has been devoted to expanding the financial sector in ways that don’t create new businesses and more jobs and to persuading people to take on excessive debt loads to make up for the fact that their incomes are stagnant."

Bill Clinton

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You're also predictable. But thanks for admitting the government is a parasite.

Warren isn't a parasite, he makes his own money, he doesn't have to steal it.
He is a clown for calling for higher tax rates.

So it's fair that a person who makes say $60,000 a year has to pay more percentage wise in taxes then millionaires and billionaires?

I'd rather see a system where everybody paid the same percentage then a "regressive" tax system. Hell, we're supposed to be using a progressive tax system I thought...

A person who makes $60,000 a year does not pay a higher percentage income tax than a millionaire or a billionaire.
A person who makes $60,000 a year does not pay a higher percentage payroll tax than a millionaire or a billionaire.
A person who makes $60,000 a year does not pay a higher percentage capital gains tax than a millionaire or a billionaire.
When the bottom 50% of earners pay no income tax, it's safe to say we have a progressive tax system.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You're also predictable. But thanks for admitting the government is a parasite.

Warren isn't a parasite, he makes his own money, he doesn't have to steal it.
He is a clown for calling for higher tax rates.

So it's fair that a person who makes say $60,000 a year has to pay more percentage wise in taxes then millionaires and billionaires?

I'd rather see a system where everybody paid the same percentage then a "regressive" tax system. Hell, we're supposed to be using a progressive tax system I thought...

I say let's go back to Ronald Reagan's tax rates. Everyone loves Reagan, right?

Oh... yeah.... Reagan's top rate was 50%. Now it is 35% and people SCREAMED Socialism when asked for a 4% bump back to the Clinton rates of 39%.

The top rate when Reagan took office was 70%.
The top rate when Reagan left office was 28%.

You're right, we should go back to Reagan's 28% top rate!

 

[FA_Q2]

Yet raising the tax rate on the rich does nothing to alleviate this particular problem. We need to fix the tax SYSTEM, not play the social warfare that we are playing today.

Exactly, fix the tax code so business has incentive to make decisions based on growing their business, not decisions to get around the ever increasing taxes and regulations.

Changing the TAX code won't solve the problem.

Won’t solve what problem? The unfair tax policies that we currently have? The unbalanced tax burden the left continually bitch about? Sure as hell it will. I get it, you do not want to lose the lefts favorite social engineering tool. Too bad, it failed.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Todd,

The banks HAVEN'T paid it all back yet. What they have paid back is the cash they were lent directly. However, the government is still sitting on all the shares of their stocks that were also part of the deal, and those are about half the level they need to be to sell off and break even. A few of the banks are totally out of debt to the government, but not anywhere near as many as people seem to think.

WASHINGTON, March 29 (Reuters) - The U.S. Treasury's bank bailout program will move into a profit for the first time on Wednesday with the expected repayment of $7.4 billion in taxpayer funds, Treasury officials said.

The transfers to the Troubled Asset Relief Program will push recoveries from banks to $251 billion in repayments of capital, dividends, interest and other income. It invested $245 billion in banks during the financial crisis to help avert a U.S. financial system collapse. The officials did not identify the banks expected to repay funds. But SunTrust Banks Inc and Key Corp said on March 18 that they planned to repay $4.9 billion and $2.5 billion, respectively. The repayment from the third bank would likely be much smaller.

The Treasury has estimated it will earn about $20 billion in profits from the bank portion of TARP.

Repayments to push US bank bailout into profit

$245 billion is a small fraction of the total bail out package received by US parasites since 2008"

"A separate report by TARP Special Inspector General Neil Barofsky raises similar questions, pointing out that TARP is only a small part of the financial rescue and that the government’s total debts for that effort have actually been growing sharply."

Elizabeth Warren: TARP is not a victory yet - John Maggs - POLITICO.com

$245 billion is the amount of taxpayer dollars banks were lent under TARP.
Which has been paid back profitably to the Treasury.
If you'd like to talk about any other programs, please be specific.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

A good idea if you think giving parasites more money to gamble with in Wall Street's casino is likely to turn out differently than last time.

Allowing people to keep their own money makes them parasites but confiscating their money makes you a patriot. You're funny.

How much of their "own" money were AIG parasites "entitled" to?

"No part of that bailout caused more outrage than the $185 billion rescue of AIG, the Connecticut-based insurance giant that helped create a bubble in mortgage-backed securities that nearly wrecked the financial system when it burst.

"But Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, who was heavily criticized for failing to stop AIG executives from paying themselves more than $180 million in bonuses after the huge bailout, insisted Thursday, when the plan to end the AIG bailout was announced, that a happy ending was in sight for taxpayers.

Elizabeth Warren: TARP is not a victory yet - John Maggs - POLITICO.com

I don't think the AIG rescue was the most outrageous.
The Treasury will probably breakeven on AIG.
The outrageous rescue was Fannie and Freddie.
We'll probably lose $200 billion on Barney Frank's favorite companies.
Any of their executives going to jail for falsifying financial results and getting huge
bonuses as a result? Why not?

 

[georgephillip]

Allowing people to keep their own money makes them parasites but confiscating their money makes you a patriot. You're funny.

How much of their "own" money were AIG parasites "entitled" to?

"No part of that bailout caused more outrage than the $185 billion rescue of AIG, the Connecticut-based insurance giant that helped create a bubble in mortgage-backed securities that nearly wrecked the financial system when it burst.

"But Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, who was heavily criticized for failing to stop AIG executives from paying themselves more than $180 million in bonuses after the huge bailout, insisted Thursday, when the plan to end the AIG bailout was announced, that a happy ending was in sight for taxpayers.

Elizabeth Warren: TARP is not a victory yet - John Maggs - POLITICO.com

I don't think the AIG rescue was the most outrageous.
The Treasury will probably breakeven on AIG.
The outrageous rescue was Fannie and Freddie.
We'll probably lose $200 billion on Barney Frank's favorite companies.
Any of their executives going to jail for falsifying financial results and getting huge
bonuses as a result? Why not?

Because elected Republicans and Democrats depend on the richest 1% of voters to fund their campaigns.

Why haven't any Wall Street executives faced prosecution for control fraud?

 

[editec]

October

8 bailouts: $115,000,000,000 (list)

Oct 1 The Senate Passes TARP

The Senate passes a revised version of the bill, stuffed with tax breaks.
Oct 3 The House Passes TARP

The House passes the bill, and the president signs the $700 billion Emergency Economic Stabilization Act into law.
Oct 8 Second AIG Bailout

The government restructures its bailout of AIG. The insurer gets access to $37.8 billion more in loans.
Oct 14 Paulson Rolls Out Bank Investments

The Treasury Department announces that it will invest up to $250 billion in the nation's banks via the Capital Purchase Program, a subcomponent of the TARP, and billed as investments in "healthy banks." Paulson announced nine major banks signed on for a total of $125 billion in investments. (More about the program here.)
Oct 3 Wells Fargo Buys Wachovia

Wachovia, rejecting a previous proposal with Citigroup, agreed to merge with Wells Fargo for $15.4 billion



November

46 bailouts: $90,285,574,000 (list)

Nov 10 Third AIG Bailout

The government restructures its bailout of AIG for the second time. Treasury invests $40 billion in AIG as part of the government’s now-$150 billion effort to keep AIG from collapsing.
Nov 12 Paulson Scraps Original Bailout Plan

Paulson announces that he's scrapping the plan to purchase troubled assets. The capital investments in the banks proved to be a "more powerful" means of boosting the financial system, he said.
Nov 14 Freddie Mac Asks for $13.8 Billion

Freddie Mac reports a net loss of $25.3 billion for the third quarter of 2008. To fill the hole of its losses, the Federal Housing Finance Agency requests $13.8 billion from the Treasury.
Nov 23 Citigroup Bailed Out

The Treasury announces that it will invest $20 billion more in Citigroup; this is in addition to a $25 billion investment in October through the Capital Purchase Program. The government also agrees to use up to $5 billion to help Citi absorb losses from a $301 billion pool of assets.
Nov 25 Fed and Treasury Roll Out Program to Spur Lending (TALF)

The Treasury and Fed announce the Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility (TALF), a Fed program that will lend up to $200 billion to owners of highly rated asset-backed securities in order to spur consumer lending. Treasury puts up $20 billion to support the effort. (More about the program here.)



December

166 bailouts: $65,359,391,131 1 revenue payments: $172,000,000 (list)


Dec 19 Auto Bailout Announced

The Treasury announces that it will make loans to General Motors and Chrysler to prevent bankruptcy. (More about the auto bailout here.)



2009

January

150 bailouts: $43,312,893,000 (list)

Jan 15 Senate Votes to Release Second Half of Bailout Funds

Under the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act, Congress had the power to block the release of the second half of the $700 billion funding authorized by the bill. But after promises by the incoming administration about how it would spend the money, the Senate voted to allow access to the remaining $350 billion.
Jan 16 Bank of America Bailed Out

The Treasury announces a deal with Bank of America similar to the Citi deal. It will invest $20 billion more in Bank of America; this is in addition to a $25 billion investment in October through the Capital Purchase Program. The government also agrees to help Bank of America absorb losses from a $118 billion pool of assets. That agreement, however, is never finalized.
Jan 20 Barack Obama Takes Office

Obama is inaugurated as the 44th president.
Jan 26 Geithner Takes Office

Timothy Geithner is sworn in as Secretary of the Treasury.



February

109 bailouts: $31,335,982,542 (list)

Feb 10 Geithner Pitches New Bailout Plan

Geithner rolls out the Financial Stability Plan. Geithner promises to perform "stress tests" on the nation's biggest banks to determine their health and the necessity of more government investments, announces that the government will form some sort of public-private partnership to buy troubled assets from the banks, says he'll commit an additional $100 billion to boost the TALF and promises the administration will soon introduce its foreclosure prevention plan.
Feb 17 Stimulus Bill Passes, Limiting Exec Bonuses

President Obama signs the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, which includes a section limiting the bonuses of the highest earning executives at firms that received bailout money.
Feb 18 Rollout of Mortgage Rescue

The administration announces its broad plan to prevent foreclosures and promote mortgage loan modifications. (More about the program here.)
Feb 18 Treasury Ups Limit for Fannie and Freddie to $200 Billion

Geithner announces that the Treasury is increasing its funding commitment to both Fannie and Freddie from $100 billion to $200 billion.
Feb 25 Stress Tests Begin

Bank regulators begin their stress tests of the nation’s 19 largest banks and promise that they'll be finished by the end of April at the latest. Treasury officials explain that the tests will be used to determine how much more money the banks need to survive a steep economic downturn.
Feb 26 Obama Administration Makes Room for $750 Billion More

The administration's budget blueprint suggests that the Treasury Department might need as much as $750 billion more to stabilize the financial sector.
Feb 26 Fannie Mae Asks for $15.2 Billion

Fannie Mae reports a $25.2 billion loss for the fourth quarter of 2008 and losses for all of 2008 totaling $58.7 billion. To fill the holes of its losses, the Federal Housing Finance Agency requests $15.2 billion from the Treasury.



March

69 bailouts: $82,148,541,000 5 refunds: $353,000,000 2 revenue payments: $395,000,000 (list)



Mar 2 Fourth AIG Bailout

The government restructures its bailout of AIG for the third time. Treasury says it might invest up to $30 billion more. Together, the Fed's and Treasury's commitments add up to $180 billion.
Mar 3 Fed Launches TALF

The Fed and Treasury announce the launch of the TALF.
Mar 4 Administration Launches Homeowner Bailout

The Treasury launches its plan to promote mortgage loan modifications and pledges to spend $75 billion on the effort.
Mar 11 Freddie Mac Asks for $30.8 Billion More

Freddie Mac reports a $23.9 billion net loss for the fourth quarter of 2008 and net losses for 2008 totaling $50.1 billion. To fill the hole of its losses, the Federal Housing Finance Agency requests $30.8 billion from the Treasury, bringing the total bailout to $44.6 billion.
Mar 15 AIG Pays Out Bonuses to Execs

AIG pays out $165 million in retention bonuses to executives who work in the business unit that was primarily responsible for sinking the company.
Mar 16 Treasury Announces Small Biz Program

The Treasury announces a program to spur credit markets for small businesses by purchasing up to $15 billion in securities backed by Small Business Administration loans. The program never gets off the ground.
Mar 19 Treasury Announces Auto Parts Program

The Treasury announces the Auto Supplier Support Program, a plan to provide up to $5 billion in financing to auto parts suppliers. (More about the program here.)
Mar 23 Treasury Announces Toxic Asset Program

Treasury Secretary Geithner rolls out the administration's plan to use government capital and financing to team with private investors to buy up toxic assets. Between $75 billion to $100 billion will be dedicated to the effort. (More about the program here.)



April

50 bailouts: $25,134,729,215 6 refunds: $683,540,000 2 revenue payments: $995,000 (list)



Apr 20 Treasury Trims AIG Aid to Recoup Bonus Payments

AIG and the Treasury Department finalize the agreement to provide AIG up to $30 billion more, but the Treasury trims $165 million from the additional aid and charges a fee for the same amount to recoup the bonuses paid to AIG employees in March.
Apr 30 Chrysler Files for Bankruptcy Protection

Chrysler files for bankruptcy protection, and as part of the restructuring, the Treasury Department agrees to loan Chrysler up to $8 billion more. The Treasury will get an eight percent stake in the company.



May

57 bailouts: $46,661,783,908 9 refunds: $735,320,000 565 revenue payments: $5,918,032,432 (list)



May 7 Federal releases the results of its stress tests

According to the results of the Federal Reserve's "stress tests," 10 of the 19 largest banks will have to raise a total of $74.6 billion in additional capital to withstand a dire economic scenario. Ultimately, all of the banks raise the money privately, with the exception of GMAC.
May 8 Fannie Mae Asks for $19 Billion More

Fannie Mae reports a $23.2 billion loss for the first quarter of 2009. To fill the holes of its losses, the Federal Housing Finance Agency requests $19 billion from the Treasury.
May 12 Freddie Mac Asks for $6.1 Billion More

Freddie Mac reports a $9.9 billion net loss for the first quarter of 2009. To fill the hole of its losses, the Federal Housing Finance Agency requests $6.1 billion from the Treasury, bringing the total bailout to $50.7 billion.



June

43 bailouts: $27,489,445,768 12 refunds: $68,352,729,000 27 revenue payments: $2,310,724,665 (list)



Jun 3 Part of Toxic Asset Program Indefinitely Delayed

FDIC chief Sheila Bair announces that the banks have been so successful in raising private capital that there is no longer sufficient interest in a plan to purchase their troubled loans. The loan program comprises one-half of the Public-Private Investment Program; the other, to buy banks' asset-backed securities, is still in development.
Jun 9 Treasury Approves 10 Banks to Repay $68 Billion

The Treasury Department announces that it has approved 10 banks to repay their TARP funds. The banks are JPMorgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, U.S. Bank, Northern Trust, Capital One, BB&T, American Express, Bank of New York Mellon, and State Street. You can see a complete list of the banks that have repaid their TARP funds here.
Jun 1 GM Files for Bankruptcy Protection

GM files for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. As part of the restructuring, the U.S. government agrees to provide the company up to $30.1 billion more. In exchange, the U.S. will receive a 60 percent stake in the company when it emerges from bankruptcy.
Jun 10 Chrysler Finalizes Deal with Fiat, Begins Operations as New Company

The new Chrysler announces that it has finalized its alliance with Fiat, and that the new company will begin operations immediately. On June 29, seven Chrysler plants resumed production. Most manufacturing operations had been idle since early May.



July

30 bailouts: $10,440,081,229 5 refunds: $2,189,254,840 17 revenue payments: $2,577,839,497 (list)



Jul 8 Treasury Launches Toxic Securities Program

The Treasury names the nine asset managers who will participate in its program to buy toxic securities and says that up to $30 billion of TARP funds will be invested alongside private investors.
Jul 10 New GM Begins Operations

GM announces that its purchase of the company's good assets (and shedding of the bad) has been finalized and that it can begin operations as a new company.
Jul 30 Treasury Completes Exchange of Citigroup Shares

On July 23 and July 30, Treasury exchanged a total of $25 billion of its preferred shares in Citigroup for common stock. As a result, the Treasury owns 7.7 billion shares of Citi's common stock, a 34% stake in the company.



August

19 bailouts: $14,202,174,647 3 refunds: $140,000,000 598 revenue payments: $3,027,307,235 (list)



Aug 6 Fannie Mae Asks for $10.7 Billion More

Fannie Mae reports a $14.8 billion billion loss for the second quarter of 2009. To fill the holes of its losses, the Federal Housing Finance Agency requests $10.7 billion from the Treasury.



September

32 bailouts: $3,292,298,481 7 refunds: $403,938,000 17 revenue payments: $2,595,463,437 (list)






October

19 bailouts: $12,873,692,801 3 refunds: $88,400,000 12 revenue payments: $609,053,915 (list)



Oct 22 TARP Chief for Exec Compensation Releases Findings

The Special Master for TARP Executive Compensation releases determinations on the compensation packages for the top 25 most highly paid executives at the companies that received "exceptional" assistance -- i.e. those that were bailed out in the strictest sense of the word: AIG, Bank of America, Citigroup, Chrysler, Chrysler Financial, General Motors, and GMAC.



November

18 bailouts: $18,381,275,384 10 refunds: $368,618,000 596 revenue payments: $1,888,403,607 (list)



Nov 4 Fannie Mae Asks for $15 Billion More

Fannie Mae reports a $18.9 billion billion loss for the third quarter of 2009. To fill the holes of its losses, the Federal Housing Finance Agency requests $15 billion from the Treasury.
Nov 1 CIT Files for Bankruptcy, $2.3 Billion Lost

CIT files for bankruptcy protection. A $2.33 billion TARP investment is wiped out.



December

56 bailouts: $7,469,488,270 15 refunds: $91,851,152,000 42 revenue payments: $4,456,280,090 (list)



Dec 1 AIG and Fed Strike Deal to Reduce AIG Debt

AIG announces that it has completed two deals that, together, shave $25 billion off its tab to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, bringing the combined total it owes the Fed and the Treasury to about $62 billion.
Dec 23 Citigroup Returns $20 Billion

Citigroup repays $20 billion to the Treasury.
Dec 23 Citi Also Terminates its Loss-Share Agreement

Citi's $5 billion loss-share agreement with the Treasury is terminated. The Treasury still retains the common stock it received in exchanged for its $25 billion investment, so, together with the $20 billion reimbursement, the total outstanding aid falls to $25 billion from $50 billion.
Dec 9 Bank of America Repays $45 Billion

Bank of America returns all $45 billion to the Treasury.
Dec 23 Wells Fargo Returns $25 Billion

Wells Fargo returns all $25 billion.
Dec 24 Treasury Removes $400 Billion Cap on Fannie, Freddie Aid

The Treasury says that in order to preserve "the continued strength and stability of the mortgage market," it is removing the $400 billion cap ($200 billion for each) the Treasury Department placed on the aid earlier in 2009. For the next three years, the Treasury will cover Fannie and Freddie's losses, no matter how large.




2010

January

5 bailouts: $36,445,101 6 refunds: $448,506,421 23 revenue payments: $126,671,411 (list)






February

2 bailouts: $16,080,200,000 6 refunds: $7,997,020,718 584 revenue payments: $757,697,133 (list)






March

3 bailouts: $30,971,470 9 refunds: $7,206,296,735 9 revenue payments: $4,423,363,748 (list)






April

2 bailouts: $1,228,036 7 refunds: $6,123,135,420 30 revenue payments: $616,039,366 (list)






May

3 bailouts: $19,000,290,111 3 refunds: $8,086,474,158 550 revenue payments: $1,756,503,502 (list)






June

6 bailouts: $1,516,423,790 6 refunds: $5,445,910,825 30 revenue payments: $3,525,801,156 (list)






July

1 bailouts: $10,189,000 3 refunds: $418,698,000 22 revenue payments: $249,661,415 (list)






August

12 bailouts: $3,941,802,222 3 refunds: $123,338,000 509 revenue payments: $665,113,180 (list)






September

137 bailouts: $14,299,705,853 4 refunds: $6,065,811,117 55 revenue payments: $7,272,642,395 (list)






November

2 bailouts: $2,600,000,000 6 refunds: $13,661,108,108 546 revenue payments: $734,895,335 (list)






December

2 bailouts: $9,899,980 23 refunds: $14,155,268,288 47 revenue payments: $11,076,696,233 (list)







2011

January

1 bailouts: $1,003,227 6 refunds: $111,614,590 28 revenue payments: $461,810,866 (list)


Jan 14 AIG Repayment Plan Executed

In a complex transaction, AIG paid off its outstanding debt to the Fed with the help of the Treasury, which took a large stake in AIG as compensation.

February

2 bailouts: $3,100,000,000 10 refunds: $5,755,875,710 503 revenue payments: $585,515,792 (list)


April

4 bailouts: $1,500,000 6 refunds: $519,409,286 4 revenue payments: $72,745,000 (list)

May

1 bailouts: $8,500,000,000 10 refunds: $11,724,963,652 6 revenue payments: $2,106,025,738 (list)

source

 

[FiscalSanity]

Todd,

You've got some interesting data, but looking at editecs list the treasury is still sitting on $25 billion in Citi stock, and according to what i've read in various online papers this last week they are only worth around $12.5 billion at the current stock price.

It may be that more of the banks have paid back everything then i believed, but the treasury is still sitting on a fair amount of bank stock that's not currently worth what they "paid" for it. The treasury also accepted AIG stock which isn't worth it's purchase price to pay off it's debt to the Fed. Now, those stocks may just eventually be able to be sold at a profit, but it's way too early to be saying that the costs of the bailout have really been repaid.

 

[Toro]

Since DC Democrats and Republicans are tone deaf to anything that doesn't ring of corporate cash, it falls on workers to demand a massive public works program which can be funded by taxing corporations and the richest Americans at pre-Reagan levels.

"And it makes complete sense because the growing inequalities in wealth over the past three decades has meant a spectacular concentration of wealth at the top.

"The rich have plenty of money to spare."

Spare me the brain-dead conservative vomit about how hard the rich have "worked" for all their money.

The rich have the money because Republicans AND Democrats threw money at Wall Street banks and hedge funds instead of prosecuting the executives responsible for the biggest economic downturn since the Great Depression.

The rich have the money because their chief enabler, The Federal Reserve, has fueled a major commodity bubble "that may be in the midst of bursting, possibly triggering a double dip recession."

Throw in high unemployment which allows the rich to work remaining employees harder and thus increase profits and combine it with commodity speculation and you have the entire basis for a corporate recovery which both major parties tout as "proof" of economic "recovery."

It's another lie the rich tell.

When the Fed stops purchasing 60% of US Treasury bonds, a new creditor will have to step up. One that will probably demand significantly higher interest rates before loaning anymore money to the US Government.

Surprise, surprise - the rich win again!

They got all that free bail-out money which increased the deficit.
None of them went to prison for their crimes.
Their bottom lines are being enhanced by commodity speculation and high unemployment.
And now the rich want higher interest rates for investing in US Treasury Bonds.

"In (all) instances working people pay the bills."

The Rich Are Destroying the Economy | Common Dreams

Errors;

- There is no monolithic "rich." I know rich liberals who vehemently disagree with rich conservatives. Most "rich" do not get rich through financial speculation.

- TARP is a rounding error in the deficit. They did bail out the GSEs, but that was to bail out the mortgage market, not the rich. Plus, it will cost $200 billion to fund the GSEs, which pales in comparison to the $4 trillion or so of debt we will accumulate over the next decade. The deficit was not created by "the rich."

- And even if the government had allowed the banks to crash and burn, dragging us into Depression 2.0, income inequality would still be very wide.

- Commodity speculation is a minor corner of the financial market. Very few become rich through commodities.

- Most of the buyers of Treasury bills once the Fed is done with QE2 will not be "the rich." They will be large institutions representing others besides "the rich." And interest rates have been falling as QE2 winds down.

 

[FiscalSanity]

Editec,

Fixing the tax code would solve a lot of problems. Do you have any idea what companies pay out to CPA firms every year to make sure their books are in compliance with all the latest IRS rules and regulations?
That's in addition to what they already have to pay for staff accountants to keep their books and make sure they are in compliance with GAAP standards(which are quite a bit different from what the IRS uses). Trust me on this one-CPA's don't work cheap.

The bigger problem it would solve is this-The simpler the tax code is, the harder it is to cheat. By cutting down on legal loopholes and simplifying the system you up the stakes quite a bit for those who are trying to cheat or game the system. The IRS makes a distinction between those who made an accidental error or honestly misinterpeted something and those who were deliberately trying to cheat when it comes to deciding on penalties, and a simple tax code makes it a lot harder for the tax evaders to claim that it was an accident. Sure, you're still going to have cheaters, but you're still going to generate higher revenues because more people will pay what they actually owe rather then risk the penalties of being caught.

 

[boedicca]

Editec,

Fixing the tax code would solve a lot of problems. Do you have any idea what companies pay out to CPA firms every year to make sure their books are in compliance with all the latest IRS rules and regulations?
That's in addition to what they already have to pay for staff accountants to keep their books and make sure they are in compliance with GAAP standards(which are quite a bit different from what the IRS uses). Trust me on this one-CPA's don't work cheap.

The bigger problem it would solve is this-The simpler the tax code is, the harder it is to cheat. By cutting down on legal loopholes and simplifying the system you up the stakes quite a bit for those who are trying to cheat or game the system. The IRS makes a distinction between those who made an accidental error or honestly misinterpeted something and those who were deliberately trying to cheat when it comes to deciding on penalties, and a simple tax code makes it a lot harder for the tax evaders to claim that it was an accident. Sure, you're still going to have cheaters, but you're still going to generate higher revenues because more people will pay what they actually owe rather then risk the penalties of being caught.

I've read estimates that tax compliance costs to the U.S, economy are approximately $1.5T...on top of the actual taxes paid. Considering how much time is spent on preparing, reporting, accounting, and planning for taxes, this sounds about right.

Yet another reason for Simplification.

 

[Toro]

Editec,

Fixing the tax code would solve a lot of problems. Do you have any idea what companies pay out to CPA firms every year to make sure their books are in compliance with all the latest IRS rules and regulations?
That's in addition to what they already have to pay for staff accountants to keep their books and make sure they are in compliance with GAAP standards(which are quite a bit different from what the IRS uses). Trust me on this one-CPA's don't work cheap.

The bigger problem it would solve is this-The simpler the tax code is, the harder it is to cheat. By cutting down on legal loopholes and simplifying the system you up the stakes quite a bit for those who are trying to cheat or game the system. The IRS makes a distinction between those who made an accidental error or honestly misinterpeted something and those who were deliberately trying to cheat when it comes to deciding on penalties, and a simple tax code makes it a lot harder for the tax evaders to claim that it was an accident. Sure, you're still going to have cheaters, but you're still going to generate higher revenues because more people will pay what they actually owe rather then risk the penalties of being caught.

I've read estimates that tax compliance costs to the U.S, economy are approximately $1.5T...on top of the actual taxes paid. Considering how much time is spent on preparing, reporting, accounting, and planning for taxes, this sounds about right.

Yet another reason for Simplification.

I highly doubt compliance is over 10% of the economy. I'm sure there is a dead weight loss, but that sounds like a gross exaggeration.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Todd,

You've got some interesting data, but looking at editecs list the treasury is still sitting on $25 billion in Citi stock, and according to what i've read in various online papers this last week they are only worth around $12.5 billion at the current stock price.

It may be that more of the banks have paid back everything then i believed, but the treasury is still sitting on a fair amount of bank stock that's not currently worth what they "paid" for it. The treasury also accepted AIG stock which isn't worth it's purchase price to pay off it's debt to the Fed. Now, those stocks may just eventually be able to be sold at a profit, but it's way too early to be saying that the costs of the bailout have really been repaid.

Editecs list is out of date.

"The United States government has sold off its last remaining shares in Citigroup for a gross profit to the taxpayer of 12 billion dollars (8.9 billion euros)."

US Treasury sells its last Citigroup shares | euronews, corporate

Don't confuse Treasury loans to AIG with Fed loans to AIG.
They repaid the Fed, but the Treasury still owns a huge chunk of stock.

So, to recap, the money the Treasury, as part of TARP, invested in the banks has been repaid at a profit to the Treasury. Several banks still owe, but the total repaid to date exceeds the total invested, for the bank portion.

AIG will probably come in close to break-even.
The losses to the Treasury will come from the car rescues, Fannie and Freddie and the mortgage reduction program.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Editec,

Fixing the tax code would solve a lot of problems. Do you have any idea what companies pay out to CPA firms every year to make sure their books are in compliance with all the latest IRS rules and regulations?
That's in addition to what they already have to pay for staff accountants to keep their books and make sure they are in compliance with GAAP standards(which are quite a bit different from what the IRS uses). Trust me on this one-CPA's don't work cheap.

The bigger problem it would solve is this-The simpler the tax code is, the harder it is to cheat. By cutting down on legal loopholes and simplifying the system you up the stakes quite a bit for those who are trying to cheat or game the system. The IRS makes a distinction between those who made an accidental error or honestly misinterpeted something and those who were deliberately trying to cheat when it comes to deciding on penalties, and a simple tax code makes it a lot harder for the tax evaders to claim that it was an accident. Sure, you're still going to have cheaters, but you're still going to generate higher revenues because more people will pay what they actually owe rather then risk the penalties of being caught.

I've read estimates that tax compliance costs to the U.S, economy are approximately $1.5T...on top of the actual taxes paid. Considering how much time is spent on preparing, reporting, accounting, and planning for taxes, this sounds about right.

Yet another reason for Simplification.

I highly doubt compliance is over 10% of the economy. I'm sure there is a dead weight loss, but that sounds like a gross exaggeration.

This site claims it's $338 billion.

Tax Compliance Costs US $338 Billion a Year

 

[Toro]

I've read estimates that tax compliance costs to the U.S, economy are approximately $1.5T...on top of the actual taxes paid. Considering how much time is spent on preparing, reporting, accounting, and planning for taxes, this sounds about right.

Yet another reason for Simplification.

I highly doubt compliance is over 10% of the economy. I'm sure there is a dead weight loss, but that sounds like a gross exaggeration.

This site claims it's $338 billion.

Tax Compliance Costs US $338 Billion a Year

That's closer to 2%.

That may be.

 

[skookerasbil]

As Ive said before...........this thread is gay. This is a POLITICS forum, not a theory or philosophy forum.

The GOP has the HOUSE locked up for years.........probably at least 10 to be exact. The chances of mega hikes for taxes on the rich are ( drum roll please).................




zero s0ns!!!





But by all means..........philosophize your asses off!!!!