Test for the rightwing: tell me the differences between the far left and the moderate left

[francoHFW]

Give everyone a iving wage and people have money to spend..

What if your job doesn't merit that level of pay?
Why should an employer pay you more than your job is worth?
Why should the state force them to?

Gov't has to force the angry brainwashed greedy idiot racist slavedriving Reaganist hater dupe bosses that they have to compete with to raise THEIR payrolls...

 

[Wry Catcher]

​

I
n re: Post 192
District of Columbia v. Heller Case Brief Summary

1: None of this negates what I said.
2: You and I both know you do not want, nor are you capable of, an honest and open discussion regarding the 2A, and that you will tuck tail and run away from any such thing.
3: Your post only serves to prove the premise I laid out in my first post in this topic.
Well done, Skippy.

Deflection alert!

Skippy is a brand of peanut butter, it's Mr. Catcher to punks like you.

It seems the punk felt it necessary to leave out other supreme court decisions, posted above; providing evidence that the punk is the one incapable of an honest and open debate.

 

[francoHFW]

Pubs are running a race to the bottom for everyone except their greedy idiot billionaire masters...

 

[Darkwind]

I'm curious. What is the income distribution and type of economy in the socialist state you prefer?

I would love to see a society that has gotten past the point of having a state, but that's a pipe dream not possible in today's context. I think the platform of eugene debs is what I am looking at, I want workers to own production, I am a strong advocate of worker co-ops, welfare, universal healthcare, free education, putting labor into power, I want to remove the influence capitalists have on the state, I want the state, if it exists, to be controlled by the working class through democracy. Outlining an entire plan for a state in a forum post is quite difficult,

So would you prefer capitalism so long as it did not influence the state? What would be the income distribution? Would there be any wealthy class?

I would prefer a society without capitalism, or more so, private ownership of production for the profit of an individual, I want a society where production is tailored to the needs of the people, by the people, through democratic control. Income distribution? Progressive taxation, if the abstract value of money still exists. A wealthy class? I want everyone to be fed, sheltered, clothed, given access to healthcare.. If you refer to wealthy as material ownership, sure, that would still exist, but in reference to one owning billions while millions struggle to feed themselves? No, that wouldn't exist.

Ok so the state would own the market? Wouldn't it not be feasible that the state could pay for a wealthy class and be the only source of revenue for the country? I am all for more socialization in our current state and keeping money out of politics, but the idea of not having a private market doesn't seem realistic.

The state would not own the market, the market would be utilized as a tool to provide for the people, not for profit. I don't see how the state would do that if the people had control of it and capitalists weren't running rampant. Of course private markets would still exist, nothing is perfect.

You really don't see it, do you?

Look at the highlighted red text.

How would it be utilized? Who would run it, or will it run itself? What people? What if other groups of people say no, that's not how its supposed to provide for us? What if a whole segment says, "Fuck this, we're not participating!" What about the people who get voted down? Will they grow resentment that they're not getting "Their Share"? How will the fruits of this alleged 'pooled labor' be distributed? Who will make an accounting of what is fair? Who will count the beans? Will Hawkeye and Lt. Dish ever hook up?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Give everyone a iving wage and people have money to spend..

What if your job doesn't merit that level of pay?
Why should an employer pay you more than your job is worth?
Why should the state force them to?

Gov't has to force the angry brainwashed greedy idiot racist slavedriving Reaganist hater dupe bosses that they have to compete with to raise THEIR payrolls...

In other words.. you have no sound answers for my questions.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Deflection alert!

Deflection?

YOUR response. to my citation of Heller was "deflection" as said response did nothing to address it, in context.
You note that the very first thing I said in repose was:

1: None of this negates what I said.

Now, if you can, tell us how my citation of Heller is not an effective response to the post I responded to.

You and I both know you do not want, nor are you capable of, an honest and open discussion regarding the 2A, and that you will tuck tail and run away from any such thing.

 

[The Rabbi]

Moderate Left:
Mo Udall
Sam Nunn.

Far Left:
Mark Udall
Michelle Nunn

 

[Billy000]

They can be as wealthy as possible so long as they pay the lower classes fairly.

Circular answer. How much is enough? Enough...

At least $15 per hour. That is the wage that would be kept up with today's average of cost of living.

And what happens when we raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour and prices go up because of it and people can't live on that again?

You know the problem with your argument is that it's a zero sum game.

Let's say our economy is A, B and C. B is worth double A, C is worth double B.

So if

A = $7.25, then B = $14.50 and C = $29

What happens if you raise A to $15?

Well, then B adjusts to $30 and C adjusts to $60.

You haven't accomplished anything. And that's the best case. In reality, you cause a slew of A's to get fired or their hours cut for automation and process improvements

The problem with yours is that it isn't a zero sum game. The price increase would be pennies on the dollar. If the wage is raised gradually over a few years and the market has time to respond, the price increase would be slight. This is mostly due to the fact that the increase to consumer demand from bigger paychecks would help the market. Eventually, the market would begin to thrive erg so much extra money being pumped into businesses. Well beyond the cost of businesses having to pay their employees more.

You obviously have never owned a restaurant. I have. Pennies on the dollar, you are full of shit. Most of our costs were labor and food. Sure, it's easy during lunch and dinner and bar rush. My restaurant was across the street from UNC Chapel Hill, but you have no idea obviously how expensive it is to staff the rest of the day, labor is a huge drain. In Chapel Hill across the street from UNC restaurants fail all the time. How is that possible that doubling their labor costs won't affect them?

Stop listening to the idiotic lawyers like Al Gore and Obama Bin Laden who haven't earned a dollar in their lives and have never taken an economics class, they just tell you what they want you to think. Stop thinking it, they are ... wait for it ... lying to you ... Who'd a thought? A lawyer lie to you? A politician lie to you? Actually, that's not the surprising part. The surprising part is you ... believe ... them. BTW, the checks in the mail and we are just friends. Wow. Liberals are so naive

You know what opinion really matters? The experts. Over 600 economists signed a letter urging congress to raise the minimum wage. 7 of them are Nobel prize winners. Be sure to read the last paragraph of the letter.

Over 600 Economists Sign Letter In Support of 10.10 Minimum Wage Economist Statement on the Federal Minimum Wage Economic Policy Institute

"July will mark five years since the federal minimum wage was last raised. We urge you to act now and enact a three-step raise of 95 cents a year for three years—which would mean a minimum wage of $10.10 by 2016—and then index it to protect against inflation. Senator Tom Harkin and Representative George Miller have introduced legislation to accomplish this. The increase to $10.10 would mean that minimum-wage workers who work full time, full year would see a raise from their current salary of roughly $15,000 to roughly $21,000. These proposals also usefully raise the tipped minimum wage to 70% of the regular minimum.

This policy would directly provide higher wages for close to 17 million workers by 2016. Furthermore, another 11 million workers whose wages are just above the new minimum would likely see a wage increase through “spillover” effects, as employers adjust their internal wage ladders. The vast majority of employees who would benefit are adults in working families, disproportionately women, who work at least 20 hours a week and depend on these earnings to make ends meet. At a time when persistent high unemployment is putting enormous downward pressure on wages, such a minimum-wage increase would provide a much-needed boost to the earnings of low-wage workers.

In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth, and providing some help on the jobs front."

 

[The Rabbi]

Circular answer. How much is enough? Enough...

At least $15 per hour. That is the wage that would be kept up with today's average of cost of living.

And what happens when we raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour and prices go up because of it and people can't live on that again?

You know the problem with your argument is that it's a zero sum game.

Let's say our economy is A, B and C. B is worth double A, C is worth double B.

So if

A = $7.25, then B = $14.50 and C = $29

What happens if you raise A to $15?

Well, then B adjusts to $30 and C adjusts to $60.

You haven't accomplished anything. And that's the best case. In reality, you cause a slew of A's to get fired or their hours cut for automation and process improvements

The problem with yours is that it isn't a zero sum game. The price increase would be pennies on the dollar. If the wage is raised gradually over a few years and the market has time to respond, the price increase would be slight. This is mostly due to the fact that the increase to consumer demand from bigger paychecks would help the market. Eventually, the market would begin to thrive erg so much extra money being pumped into businesses. Well beyond the cost of businesses having to pay their employees more.

You obviously have never owned a restaurant. I have. Pennies on the dollar, you are full of shit. Most of our costs were labor and food. Sure, it's easy during lunch and dinner and bar rush. My restaurant was across the street from UNC Chapel Hill, but you have no idea obviously how expensive it is to staff the rest of the day, labor is a huge drain. In Chapel Hill across the street from UNC restaurants fail all the time. How is that possible that doubling their labor costs won't affect them?

Stop listening to the idiotic lawyers like Al Gore and Obama Bin Laden who haven't earned a dollar in their lives and have never taken an economics class, they just tell you what they want you to think. Stop thinking it, they are ... wait for it ... lying to you ... Who'd a thought? A lawyer lie to you? A politician lie to you? Actually, that's not the surprising part. The surprising part is you ... believe ... them. BTW, the checks in the mail and we are just friends. Wow. Liberals are so naive

You know what opinion really matters? The experts. Over 600 economists signed a letter urging congress to raise the minimum wage. 7 of them are Nobel prize winners. Be sure to read the last paragraph of the letter.

Over 600 Economists Sign Letter In Support of 10.10 Minimum Wage Economist Statement on the Federal Minimum Wage Economic Policy Institute

"July will mark five years since the federal minimum wage was last raised. We urge you to act now and enact a three-step raise of 95 cents a year for three years—which would mean a minimum wage of $10.10 by 2016—and then index it to protect against inflation. Senator Tom Harkin and Representative George Miller have introduced legislation to accomplish this. The increase to $10.10 would mean that minimum-wage workers who work full time, full year would see a raise from their current salary of roughly $15,000 to roughly $21,000. These proposals also usefully raise the tipped minimum wage to 70% of the regular minimum.

This policy would directly provide higher wages for close to 17 million workers by 2016. Furthermore, another 11 million workers whose wages are just above the new minimum would likely see a wage increase through “spillover” effects, as employers adjust their internal wage ladders. The vast majority of employees who would benefit are adults in working families, disproportionately women, who work at least 20 hours a week and depend on these earnings to make ends meet. At a time when persistent high unemployment is putting enormous downward pressure on wages, such a minimum-wage increase would provide a much-needed boost to the earnings of low-wage workers.

In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth, and providing some help on the jobs front."

The experts opposed Obama's stimulus package. Were they right too?

 

[Billy000]

At least $15 per hour. That is the wage that would be kept up with today's average of cost of living.

And what happens when we raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour and prices go up because of it and people can't live on that again?

You know the problem with your argument is that it's a zero sum game.

Let's say our economy is A, B and C. B is worth double A, C is worth double B.

So if

A = $7.25, then B = $14.50 and C = $29

What happens if you raise A to $15?

Well, then B adjusts to $30 and C adjusts to $60.

You haven't accomplished anything. And that's the best case. In reality, you cause a slew of A's to get fired or their hours cut for automation and process improvements

The problem with yours is that it isn't a zero sum game. The price increase would be pennies on the dollar. If the wage is raised gradually over a few years and the market has time to respond, the price increase would be slight. This is mostly due to the fact that the increase to consumer demand from bigger paychecks would help the market. Eventually, the market would begin to thrive erg so much extra money being pumped into businesses. Well beyond the cost of businesses having to pay their employees more.

You obviously have never owned a restaurant. I have. Pennies on the dollar, you are full of shit. Most of our costs were labor and food. Sure, it's easy during lunch and dinner and bar rush. My restaurant was across the street from UNC Chapel Hill, but you have no idea obviously how expensive it is to staff the rest of the day, labor is a huge drain. In Chapel Hill across the street from UNC restaurants fail all the time. How is that possible that doubling their labor costs won't affect them?

Stop listening to the idiotic lawyers like Al Gore and Obama Bin Laden who haven't earned a dollar in their lives and have never taken an economics class, they just tell you what they want you to think. Stop thinking it, they are ... wait for it ... lying to you ... Who'd a thought? A lawyer lie to you? A politician lie to you? Actually, that's not the surprising part. The surprising part is you ... believe ... them. BTW, the checks in the mail and we are just friends. Wow. Liberals are so naive

You know what opinion really matters? The experts. Over 600 economists signed a letter urging congress to raise the minimum wage. 7 of them are Nobel prize winners. Be sure to read the last paragraph of the letter.

Over 600 Economists Sign Letter In Support of 10.10 Minimum Wage Economist Statement on the Federal Minimum Wage Economic Policy Institute

"July will mark five years since the federal minimum wage was last raised. We urge you to act now and enact a three-step raise of 95 cents a year for three years—which would mean a minimum wage of $10.10 by 2016—and then index it to protect against inflation. Senator Tom Harkin and Representative George Miller have introduced legislation to accomplish this. The increase to $10.10 would mean that minimum-wage workers who work full time, full year would see a raise from their current salary of roughly $15,000 to roughly $21,000. These proposals also usefully raise the tipped minimum wage to 70% of the regular minimum.

This policy would directly provide higher wages for close to 17 million workers by 2016. Furthermore, another 11 million workers whose wages are just above the new minimum would likely see a wage increase through “spillover” effects, as employers adjust their internal wage ladders. The vast majority of employees who would benefit are adults in working families, disproportionately women, who work at least 20 hours a week and depend on these earnings to make ends meet. At a time when persistent high unemployment is putting enormous downward pressure on wages, such a minimum-wage increase would provide a much-needed boost to the earnings of low-wage workers.

In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth, and providing some help on the jobs front."

The experts opposed Obama's stimulus package. Were they right too?

Umm what experts? How many experts were in favor of it? Either way you have no idea what you are talking about so you should listen to the academics who are so clearly more intelligent than you.

 

[The Rabbi]

And what happens when we raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour and prices go up because of it and people can't live on that again?

You know the problem with your argument is that it's a zero sum game.

Let's say our economy is A, B and C. B is worth double A, C is worth double B.

So if

A = $7.25, then B = $14.50 and C = $29

What happens if you raise A to $15?

Well, then B adjusts to $30 and C adjusts to $60.

You haven't accomplished anything. And that's the best case. In reality, you cause a slew of A's to get fired or their hours cut for automation and process improvements

The problem with yours is that it isn't a zero sum game. The price increase would be pennies on the dollar. If the wage is raised gradually over a few years and the market has time to respond, the price increase would be slight. This is mostly due to the fact that the increase to consumer demand from bigger paychecks would help the market. Eventually, the market would begin to thrive erg so much extra money being pumped into businesses. Well beyond the cost of businesses having to pay their employees more.

You obviously have never owned a restaurant. I have. Pennies on the dollar, you are full of shit. Most of our costs were labor and food. Sure, it's easy during lunch and dinner and bar rush. My restaurant was across the street from UNC Chapel Hill, but you have no idea obviously how expensive it is to staff the rest of the day, labor is a huge drain. In Chapel Hill across the street from UNC restaurants fail all the time. How is that possible that doubling their labor costs won't affect them?

Stop listening to the idiotic lawyers like Al Gore and Obama Bin Laden who haven't earned a dollar in their lives and have never taken an economics class, they just tell you what they want you to think. Stop thinking it, they are ... wait for it ... lying to you ... Who'd a thought? A lawyer lie to you? A politician lie to you? Actually, that's not the surprising part. The surprising part is you ... believe ... them. BTW, the checks in the mail and we are just friends. Wow. Liberals are so naive

You know what opinion really matters? The experts. Over 600 economists signed a letter urging congress to raise the minimum wage. 7 of them are Nobel prize winners. Be sure to read the last paragraph of the letter.

Over 600 Economists Sign Letter In Support of 10.10 Minimum Wage Economist Statement on the Federal Minimum Wage Economic Policy Institute

"July will mark five years since the federal minimum wage was last raised. We urge you to act now and enact a three-step raise of 95 cents a year for three years—which would mean a minimum wage of $10.10 by 2016—and then index it to protect against inflation. Senator Tom Harkin and Representative George Miller have introduced legislation to accomplish this. The increase to $10.10 would mean that minimum-wage workers who work full time, full year would see a raise from their current salary of roughly $15,000 to roughly $21,000. These proposals also usefully raise the tipped minimum wage to 70% of the regular minimum.

This policy would directly provide higher wages for close to 17 million workers by 2016. Furthermore, another 11 million workers whose wages are just above the new minimum would likely see a wage increase through “spillover” effects, as employers adjust their internal wage ladders. The vast majority of employees who would benefit are adults in working families, disproportionately women, who work at least 20 hours a week and depend on these earnings to make ends meet. At a time when persistent high unemployment is putting enormous downward pressure on wages, such a minimum-wage increase would provide a much-needed boost to the earnings of low-wage workers.

In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth, and providing some help on the jobs front."

The experts opposed Obama's stimulus package. Were they right too?

Umm what experts? How many experts were in favor of it? Either way you have no idea what you are talking about so you should listen to the academics who are so clearly more intelligent than you.

There were 2 Nobel Prize winners and about 300 other economists. They were right. The stimulus failed even by the standards the adminsitration set for it.

 

[Socialist]

I would love to see a society that has gotten past the point of having a state, but that's a pipe dream not possible in today's context. I think the platform of eugene debs is what I am looking at, I want workers to own production, I am a strong advocate of worker co-ops, welfare, universal healthcare, free education, putting labor into power, I want to remove the influence capitalists have on the state, I want the state, if it exists, to be controlled by the working class through democracy. Outlining an entire plan for a state in a forum post is quite difficult,

So would you prefer capitalism so long as it did not influence the state? What would be the income distribution? Would there be any wealthy class?

I would prefer a society without capitalism, or more so, private ownership of production for the profit of an individual, I want a society where production is tailored to the needs of the people, by the people, through democratic control. Income distribution? Progressive taxation, if the abstract value of money still exists. A wealthy class? I want everyone to be fed, sheltered, clothed, given access to healthcare.. If you refer to wealthy as material ownership, sure, that would still exist, but in reference to one owning billions while millions struggle to feed themselves? No, that wouldn't exist.

Ok so the state would own the market? Wouldn't it not be feasible that the state could pay for a wealthy class and be the only source of revenue for the country? I am all for more socialization in our current state and keeping money out of politics, but the idea of not having a private market doesn't seem realistic.

The state would not own the market, the market would be utilized as a tool to provide for the people, not for profit. I don't see how the state would do that if the people had control of it and capitalists weren't running rampant. Of course private markets would still exist, nothing is perfect.

You really don't see it, do you?

Look at the highlighted red text.

How would it be utilized? Who would run it, or will it run itself? What people? What if other groups of people say no, that's not how its supposed to provide for us? What if a whole segment says, "Fuck this, we're not participating!" What about the people who get voted down? Will they grow resentment that they're not getting "Their Share"? How will the fruits of this alleged 'pooled labor' be distributed? Who will make an accounting of what is fair? Who will count the beans? Will Hawkeye and Lt. Dish ever hook up?

Utilized by democratic management, much like our current government is supposed to be. Then again, a market is a complex thing, nothing is ever perfect, People still say no in today's society to a variety of things, it still functions.

 

[kaz]

Circular answer. How much is enough? Enough...

At least $15 per hour. That is the wage that would be kept up with today's average of cost of living.

And what happens when we raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour and prices go up because of it and people can't live on that again?

You know the problem with your argument is that it's a zero sum game.

Let's say our economy is A, B and C. B is worth double A, C is worth double B.

So if

A = $7.25, then B = $14.50 and C = $29

What happens if you raise A to $15?

Well, then B adjusts to $30 and C adjusts to $60.

You haven't accomplished anything. And that's the best case. In reality, you cause a slew of A's to get fired or their hours cut for automation and process improvements

The problem with yours is that it isn't a zero sum game. The price increase would be pennies on the dollar. If the wage is raised gradually over a few years and the market has time to respond, the price increase would be slight. This is mostly due to the fact that the increase to consumer demand from bigger paychecks would help the market. Eventually, the market would begin to thrive erg so much extra money being pumped into businesses. Well beyond the cost of businesses having to pay their employees more.

You obviously have never owned a restaurant. I have. Pennies on the dollar, you are full of shit. Most of our costs were labor and food. Sure, it's easy during lunch and dinner and bar rush. My restaurant was across the street from UNC Chapel Hill, but you have no idea obviously how expensive it is to staff the rest of the day, labor is a huge drain. In Chapel Hill across the street from UNC restaurants fail all the time. How is that possible that doubling their labor costs won't affect them?

Stop listening to the idiotic lawyers like Al Gore and Obama Bin Laden who haven't earned a dollar in their lives and have never taken an economics class, they just tell you what they want you to think. Stop thinking it, they are ... wait for it ... lying to you ... Who'd a thought? A lawyer lie to you? A politician lie to you? Actually, that's not the surprising part. The surprising part is you ... believe ... them. BTW, the checks in the mail and we are just friends. Wow. Liberals are so naive

You know what opinion really matters? The experts. Over 600 economists signed a letter urging congress to raise the minimum wage. 7 of them are Nobel prize winners. Be sure to read the last paragraph of the letter.

Over 600 Economists Sign Letter In Support of 10.10 Minimum Wage Economist Statement on the Federal Minimum Wage Economic Policy Institute

"July will mark five years since the federal minimum wage was last raised. We urge you to act now and enact a three-step raise of 95 cents a year for three years—which would mean a minimum wage of $10.10 by 2016—and then index it to protect against inflation. Senator Tom Harkin and Representative George Miller have introduced legislation to accomplish this. The increase to $10.10 would mean that minimum-wage workers who work full time, full year would see a raise from their current salary of roughly $15,000 to roughly $21,000. These proposals also usefully raise the tipped minimum wage to 70% of the regular minimum.

This policy would directly provide higher wages for close to 17 million workers by 2016. Furthermore, another 11 million workers whose wages are just above the new minimum would likely see a wage increase through “spillover” effects, as employers adjust their internal wage ladders. The vast majority of employees who would benefit are adults in working families, disproportionately women, who work at least 20 hours a week and depend on these earnings to make ends meet. At a time when persistent high unemployment is putting enormous downward pressure on wages, such a minimum-wage increase would provide a much-needed boost to the earnings of low-wage workers.

In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth, and providing some help on the jobs front."

LOL, 600. Do you have any idea how many economists there are?

Suppose 600 pastors sign a letter to keep marriage between a man and woman? Would you say that's all that matters, that they said that?

 

[kaz]

And what happens when we raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour and prices go up because of it and people can't live on that again?

You know the problem with your argument is that it's a zero sum game.

Let's say our economy is A, B and C. B is worth double A, C is worth double B.

So if

A = $7.25, then B = $14.50 and C = $29

What happens if you raise A to $15?

Well, then B adjusts to $30 and C adjusts to $60.

You haven't accomplished anything. And that's the best case. In reality, you cause a slew of A's to get fired or their hours cut for automation and process improvements

The problem with yours is that it isn't a zero sum game. The price increase would be pennies on the dollar. If the wage is raised gradually over a few years and the market has time to respond, the price increase would be slight. This is mostly due to the fact that the increase to consumer demand from bigger paychecks would help the market. Eventually, the market would begin to thrive erg so much extra money being pumped into businesses. Well beyond the cost of businesses having to pay their employees more.

You obviously have never owned a restaurant. I have. Pennies on the dollar, you are full of shit. Most of our costs were labor and food. Sure, it's easy during lunch and dinner and bar rush. My restaurant was across the street from UNC Chapel Hill, but you have no idea obviously how expensive it is to staff the rest of the day, labor is a huge drain. In Chapel Hill across the street from UNC restaurants fail all the time. How is that possible that doubling their labor costs won't affect them?

Stop listening to the idiotic lawyers like Al Gore and Obama Bin Laden who haven't earned a dollar in their lives and have never taken an economics class, they just tell you what they want you to think. Stop thinking it, they are ... wait for it ... lying to you ... Who'd a thought? A lawyer lie to you? A politician lie to you? Actually, that's not the surprising part. The surprising part is you ... believe ... them. BTW, the checks in the mail and we are just friends. Wow. Liberals are so naive

You know what opinion really matters? The experts. Over 600 economists signed a letter urging congress to raise the minimum wage. 7 of them are Nobel prize winners. Be sure to read the last paragraph of the letter.

Over 600 Economists Sign Letter In Support of 10.10 Minimum Wage Economist Statement on the Federal Minimum Wage Economic Policy Institute

"July will mark five years since the federal minimum wage was last raised. We urge you to act now and enact a three-step raise of 95 cents a year for three years—which would mean a minimum wage of $10.10 by 2016—and then index it to protect against inflation. Senator Tom Harkin and Representative George Miller have introduced legislation to accomplish this. The increase to $10.10 would mean that minimum-wage workers who work full time, full year would see a raise from their current salary of roughly $15,000 to roughly $21,000. These proposals also usefully raise the tipped minimum wage to 70% of the regular minimum.

This policy would directly provide higher wages for close to 17 million workers by 2016. Furthermore, another 11 million workers whose wages are just above the new minimum would likely see a wage increase through “spillover” effects, as employers adjust their internal wage ladders. The vast majority of employees who would benefit are adults in working families, disproportionately women, who work at least 20 hours a week and depend on these earnings to make ends meet. At a time when persistent high unemployment is putting enormous downward pressure on wages, such a minimum-wage increase would provide a much-needed boost to the earnings of low-wage workers.

In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth, and providing some help on the jobs front."

The experts opposed Obama's stimulus package. Were they right too?

Umm what experts? How many experts were in favor of it? Either way you have no idea what you are talking about so you should listen to the academics who are so clearly more intelligent than you.

That's hysterical, all of a sudden the number of them on each side matters to you, after the last one where all that mattered were how many agreed with you

 

[Billy000]

At least $15 per hour. That is the wage that would be kept up with today's average of cost of living.

And what happens when we raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour and prices go up because of it and people can't live on that again?

You know the problem with your argument is that it's a zero sum game.

Let's say our economy is A, B and C. B is worth double A, C is worth double B.

So if

A = $7.25, then B = $14.50 and C = $29

What happens if you raise A to $15?

Well, then B adjusts to $30 and C adjusts to $60.

You haven't accomplished anything. And that's the best case. In reality, you cause a slew of A's to get fired or their hours cut for automation and process improvements

The problem with yours is that it isn't a zero sum game. The price increase would be pennies on the dollar. If the wage is raised gradually over a few years and the market has time to respond, the price increase would be slight. This is mostly due to the fact that the increase to consumer demand from bigger paychecks would help the market. Eventually, the market would begin to thrive erg so much extra money being pumped into businesses. Well beyond the cost of businesses having to pay their employees more.

You obviously have never owned a restaurant. I have. Pennies on the dollar, you are full of shit. Most of our costs were labor and food. Sure, it's easy during lunch and dinner and bar rush. My restaurant was across the street from UNC Chapel Hill, but you have no idea obviously how expensive it is to staff the rest of the day, labor is a huge drain. In Chapel Hill across the street from UNC restaurants fail all the time. How is that possible that doubling their labor costs won't affect them?

Stop listening to the idiotic lawyers like Al Gore and Obama Bin Laden who haven't earned a dollar in their lives and have never taken an economics class, they just tell you what they want you to think. Stop thinking it, they are ... wait for it ... lying to you ... Who'd a thought? A lawyer lie to you? A politician lie to you? Actually, that's not the surprising part. The surprising part is you ... believe ... them. BTW, the checks in the mail and we are just friends. Wow. Liberals are so naive

You know what opinion really matters? The experts. Over 600 economists signed a letter urging congress to raise the minimum wage. 7 of them are Nobel prize winners. Be sure to read the last paragraph of the letter.

Over 600 Economists Sign Letter In Support of 10.10 Minimum Wage Economist Statement on the Federal Minimum Wage Economic Policy Institute

"July will mark five years since the federal minimum wage was last raised. We urge you to act now and enact a three-step raise of 95 cents a year for three years—which would mean a minimum wage of $10.10 by 2016—and then index it to protect against inflation. Senator Tom Harkin and Representative George Miller have introduced legislation to accomplish this. The increase to $10.10 would mean that minimum-wage workers who work full time, full year would see a raise from their current salary of roughly $15,000 to roughly $21,000. These proposals also usefully raise the tipped minimum wage to 70% of the regular minimum.

This policy would directly provide higher wages for close to 17 million workers by 2016. Furthermore, another 11 million workers whose wages are just above the new minimum would likely see a wage increase through “spillover” effects, as employers adjust their internal wage ladders. The vast majority of employees who would benefit are adults in working families, disproportionately women, who work at least 20 hours a week and depend on these earnings to make ends meet. At a time when persistent high unemployment is putting enormous downward pressure on wages, such a minimum-wage increase would provide a much-needed boost to the earnings of low-wage workers.

In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth, and providing some help on the jobs front."

LOL, 600. Do you have any idea how many economists there are?

Suppose 600 pastors sign a letter to keep marriage between a man and woman? Would you say that's all that matters, that they said that?

Lol until you find a petition that has more economists opposing raising the wage, your point is moot and you know it.

 

[kaz]

And what happens when we raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour and prices go up because of it and people can't live on that again?

You know the problem with your argument is that it's a zero sum game.

Let's say our economy is A, B and C. B is worth double A, C is worth double B.

So if

A = $7.25, then B = $14.50 and C = $29

What happens if you raise A to $15?

Well, then B adjusts to $30 and C adjusts to $60.

You haven't accomplished anything. And that's the best case. In reality, you cause a slew of A's to get fired or their hours cut for automation and process improvements

The problem with yours is that it isn't a zero sum game. The price increase would be pennies on the dollar. If the wage is raised gradually over a few years and the market has time to respond, the price increase would be slight. This is mostly due to the fact that the increase to consumer demand from bigger paychecks would help the market. Eventually, the market would begin to thrive erg so much extra money being pumped into businesses. Well beyond the cost of businesses having to pay their employees more.

You obviously have never owned a restaurant. I have. Pennies on the dollar, you are full of shit. Most of our costs were labor and food. Sure, it's easy during lunch and dinner and bar rush. My restaurant was across the street from UNC Chapel Hill, but you have no idea obviously how expensive it is to staff the rest of the day, labor is a huge drain. In Chapel Hill across the street from UNC restaurants fail all the time. How is that possible that doubling their labor costs won't affect them?

Stop listening to the idiotic lawyers like Al Gore and Obama Bin Laden who haven't earned a dollar in their lives and have never taken an economics class, they just tell you what they want you to think. Stop thinking it, they are ... wait for it ... lying to you ... Who'd a thought? A lawyer lie to you? A politician lie to you? Actually, that's not the surprising part. The surprising part is you ... believe ... them. BTW, the checks in the mail and we are just friends. Wow. Liberals are so naive

You know what opinion really matters? The experts. Over 600 economists signed a letter urging congress to raise the minimum wage. 7 of them are Nobel prize winners. Be sure to read the last paragraph of the letter.

Over 600 Economists Sign Letter In Support of 10.10 Minimum Wage Economist Statement on the Federal Minimum Wage Economic Policy Institute

"July will mark five years since the federal minimum wage was last raised. We urge you to act now and enact a three-step raise of 95 cents a year for three years—which would mean a minimum wage of $10.10 by 2016—and then index it to protect against inflation. Senator Tom Harkin and Representative George Miller have introduced legislation to accomplish this. The increase to $10.10 would mean that minimum-wage workers who work full time, full year would see a raise from their current salary of roughly $15,000 to roughly $21,000. These proposals also usefully raise the tipped minimum wage to 70% of the regular minimum.

This policy would directly provide higher wages for close to 17 million workers by 2016. Furthermore, another 11 million workers whose wages are just above the new minimum would likely see a wage increase through “spillover” effects, as employers adjust their internal wage ladders. The vast majority of employees who would benefit are adults in working families, disproportionately women, who work at least 20 hours a week and depend on these earnings to make ends meet. At a time when persistent high unemployment is putting enormous downward pressure on wages, such a minimum-wage increase would provide a much-needed boost to the earnings of low-wage workers.

In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth, and providing some help on the jobs front."

LOL, 600. Do you have any idea how many economists there are?

Suppose 600 pastors sign a letter to keep marriage between a man and woman? Would you say that's all that matters, that they said that?

Lol until you find a petition that has more economists opposing raising the wage, your point is moot and you know it.

So your standard is that whichever position has the most economists sign on is truth. Wow. Somehow if the liberals you support fall behind in that count, I'm thinking suddenly that won't be your standard anymore...

 

[Billy000]

The problem with yours is that it isn't a zero sum game. The price increase would be pennies on the dollar. If the wage is raised gradually over a few years and the market has time to respond, the price increase would be slight. This is mostly due to the fact that the increase to consumer demand from bigger paychecks would help the market. Eventually, the market would begin to thrive erg so much extra money being pumped into businesses. Well beyond the cost of businesses having to pay their employees more.

You obviously have never owned a restaurant. I have. Pennies on the dollar, you are full of shit. Most of our costs were labor and food. Sure, it's easy during lunch and dinner and bar rush. My restaurant was across the street from UNC Chapel Hill, but you have no idea obviously how expensive it is to staff the rest of the day, labor is a huge drain. In Chapel Hill across the street from UNC restaurants fail all the time. How is that possible that doubling their labor costs won't affect them?

Stop listening to the idiotic lawyers like Al Gore and Obama Bin Laden who haven't earned a dollar in their lives and have never taken an economics class, they just tell you what they want you to think. Stop thinking it, they are ... wait for it ... lying to you ... Who'd a thought? A lawyer lie to you? A politician lie to you? Actually, that's not the surprising part. The surprising part is you ... believe ... them. BTW, the checks in the mail and we are just friends. Wow. Liberals are so naive

You know what opinion really matters? The experts. Over 600 economists signed a letter urging congress to raise the minimum wage. 7 of them are Nobel prize winners. Be sure to read the last paragraph of the letter.

Over 600 Economists Sign Letter In Support of 10.10 Minimum Wage Economist Statement on the Federal Minimum Wage Economic Policy Institute

"July will mark five years since the federal minimum wage was last raised. We urge you to act now and enact a three-step raise of 95 cents a year for three years—which would mean a minimum wage of $10.10 by 2016—and then index it to protect against inflation. Senator Tom Harkin and Representative George Miller have introduced legislation to accomplish this. The increase to $10.10 would mean that minimum-wage workers who work full time, full year would see a raise from their current salary of roughly $15,000 to roughly $21,000. These proposals also usefully raise the tipped minimum wage to 70% of the regular minimum.

This policy would directly provide higher wages for close to 17 million workers by 2016. Furthermore, another 11 million workers whose wages are just above the new minimum would likely see a wage increase through “spillover” effects, as employers adjust their internal wage ladders. The vast majority of employees who would benefit are adults in working families, disproportionately women, who work at least 20 hours a week and depend on these earnings to make ends meet. At a time when persistent high unemployment is putting enormous downward pressure on wages, such a minimum-wage increase would provide a much-needed boost to the earnings of low-wage workers.

In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth, and providing some help on the jobs front."

The experts opposed Obama's stimulus package. Were they right too?

Umm what experts? How many experts were in favor of it? Either way you have no idea what you are talking about so you should listen to the academics who are so clearly more intelligent than you.

That's hysterical, all of a sudden the number of them on each side matters to you, after the last one where all that mattered were how many agreed with you

Lol I don't even buy that a significant amount of academics opposed the stimulus. I'm curious do you even know what was in the stimulus?

 

[kaz]

You obviously have never owned a restaurant. I have. Pennies on the dollar, you are full of shit. Most of our costs were labor and food. Sure, it's easy during lunch and dinner and bar rush. My restaurant was across the street from UNC Chapel Hill, but you have no idea obviously how expensive it is to staff the rest of the day, labor is a huge drain. In Chapel Hill across the street from UNC restaurants fail all the time. How is that possible that doubling their labor costs won't affect them?

Stop listening to the idiotic lawyers like Al Gore and Obama Bin Laden who haven't earned a dollar in their lives and have never taken an economics class, they just tell you what they want you to think. Stop thinking it, they are ... wait for it ... lying to you ... Who'd a thought? A lawyer lie to you? A politician lie to you? Actually, that's not the surprising part. The surprising part is you ... believe ... them. BTW, the checks in the mail and we are just friends. Wow. Liberals are so naive

You know what opinion really matters? The experts. Over 600 economists signed a letter urging congress to raise the minimum wage. 7 of them are Nobel prize winners. Be sure to read the last paragraph of the letter.

Over 600 Economists Sign Letter In Support of 10.10 Minimum Wage Economist Statement on the Federal Minimum Wage Economic Policy Institute

"July will mark five years since the federal minimum wage was last raised. We urge you to act now and enact a three-step raise of 95 cents a year for three years—which would mean a minimum wage of $10.10 by 2016—and then index it to protect against inflation. Senator Tom Harkin and Representative George Miller have introduced legislation to accomplish this. The increase to $10.10 would mean that minimum-wage workers who work full time, full year would see a raise from their current salary of roughly $15,000 to roughly $21,000. These proposals also usefully raise the tipped minimum wage to 70% of the regular minimum.

This policy would directly provide higher wages for close to 17 million workers by 2016. Furthermore, another 11 million workers whose wages are just above the new minimum would likely see a wage increase through “spillover” effects, as employers adjust their internal wage ladders. The vast majority of employees who would benefit are adults in working families, disproportionately women, who work at least 20 hours a week and depend on these earnings to make ends meet. At a time when persistent high unemployment is putting enormous downward pressure on wages, such a minimum-wage increase would provide a much-needed boost to the earnings of low-wage workers.

In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth, and providing some help on the jobs front."

The experts opposed Obama's stimulus package. Were they right too?

Umm what experts? How many experts were in favor of it? Either way you have no idea what you are talking about so you should listen to the academics who are so clearly more intelligent than you.

That's hysterical, all of a sudden the number of them on each side matters to you, after the last one where all that mattered were how many agreed with you

Lol I don't even buy that a significant amount of academics opposed the stimulus. I'm curious do you even know what was in the stimulus?

We had to pass it to find out, and it turned out it was a bad idea. Warping free markets always is. That's how we got into the mess, and the solution of hair of the dog to get us out was the predictably stupid idea it sounded like

 

[Billy000]

The problem with yours is that it isn't a zero sum game. The price increase would be pennies on the dollar. If the wage is raised gradually over a few years and the market has time to respond, the price increase would be slight. This is mostly due to the fact that the increase to consumer demand from bigger paychecks would help the market. Eventually, the market would begin to thrive erg so much extra money being pumped into businesses. Well beyond the cost of businesses having to pay their employees more.

You obviously have never owned a restaurant. I have. Pennies on the dollar, you are full of shit. Most of our costs were labor and food. Sure, it's easy during lunch and dinner and bar rush. My restaurant was across the street from UNC Chapel Hill, but you have no idea obviously how expensive it is to staff the rest of the day, labor is a huge drain. In Chapel Hill across the street from UNC restaurants fail all the time. How is that possible that doubling their labor costs won't affect them?

Stop listening to the idiotic lawyers like Al Gore and Obama Bin Laden who haven't earned a dollar in their lives and have never taken an economics class, they just tell you what they want you to think. Stop thinking it, they are ... wait for it ... lying to you ... Who'd a thought? A lawyer lie to you? A politician lie to you? Actually, that's not the surprising part. The surprising part is you ... believe ... them. BTW, the checks in the mail and we are just friends. Wow. Liberals are so naive

You know what opinion really matters? The experts. Over 600 economists signed a letter urging congress to raise the minimum wage. 7 of them are Nobel prize winners. Be sure to read the last paragraph of the letter.

Over 600 Economists Sign Letter In Support of 10.10 Minimum Wage Economist Statement on the Federal Minimum Wage Economic Policy Institute

"July will mark five years since the federal minimum wage was last raised. We urge you to act now and enact a three-step raise of 95 cents a year for three years—which would mean a minimum wage of $10.10 by 2016—and then index it to protect against inflation. Senator Tom Harkin and Representative George Miller have introduced legislation to accomplish this. The increase to $10.10 would mean that minimum-wage workers who work full time, full year would see a raise from their current salary of roughly $15,000 to roughly $21,000. These proposals also usefully raise the tipped minimum wage to 70% of the regular minimum.

This policy would directly provide higher wages for close to 17 million workers by 2016. Furthermore, another 11 million workers whose wages are just above the new minimum would likely see a wage increase through “spillover” effects, as employers adjust their internal wage ladders. The vast majority of employees who would benefit are adults in working families, disproportionately women, who work at least 20 hours a week and depend on these earnings to make ends meet. At a time when persistent high unemployment is putting enormous downward pressure on wages, such a minimum-wage increase would provide a much-needed boost to the earnings of low-wage workers.

In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth, and providing some help on the jobs front."

LOL, 600. Do you have any idea how many economists there are?

Suppose 600 pastors sign a letter to keep marriage between a man and woman? Would you say that's all that matters, that they said that?

Lol until you find a petition that has more economists opposing raising the wage, your point is moot and you know it.

So your standard is that whichever position has the most economists sign on is truth. Wow. Somehow if the liberals you support fall behind in that count, I'm thinking suddenly that won't be your standard anymore...

Um well see there's a little thing in the scientific field known as consensus. Consensus matters. Of course you still haven't provided proof a significant number of economists petitioned to not raise the miminum wage so I don't know why we are still talking about it.

 

[kaz]

You obviously have never owned a restaurant. I have. Pennies on the dollar, you are full of shit. Most of our costs were labor and food. Sure, it's easy during lunch and dinner and bar rush. My restaurant was across the street from UNC Chapel Hill, but you have no idea obviously how expensive it is to staff the rest of the day, labor is a huge drain. In Chapel Hill across the street from UNC restaurants fail all the time. How is that possible that doubling their labor costs won't affect them?

Stop listening to the idiotic lawyers like Al Gore and Obama Bin Laden who haven't earned a dollar in their lives and have never taken an economics class, they just tell you what they want you to think. Stop thinking it, they are ... wait for it ... lying to you ... Who'd a thought? A lawyer lie to you? A politician lie to you? Actually, that's not the surprising part. The surprising part is you ... believe ... them. BTW, the checks in the mail and we are just friends. Wow. Liberals are so naive

You know what opinion really matters? The experts. Over 600 economists signed a letter urging congress to raise the minimum wage. 7 of them are Nobel prize winners. Be sure to read the last paragraph of the letter.

Over 600 Economists Sign Letter In Support of 10.10 Minimum Wage Economist Statement on the Federal Minimum Wage Economic Policy Institute

"July will mark five years since the federal minimum wage was last raised. We urge you to act now and enact a three-step raise of 95 cents a year for three years—which would mean a minimum wage of $10.10 by 2016—and then index it to protect against inflation. Senator Tom Harkin and Representative George Miller have introduced legislation to accomplish this. The increase to $10.10 would mean that minimum-wage workers who work full time, full year would see a raise from their current salary of roughly $15,000 to roughly $21,000. These proposals also usefully raise the tipped minimum wage to 70% of the regular minimum.

This policy would directly provide higher wages for close to 17 million workers by 2016. Furthermore, another 11 million workers whose wages are just above the new minimum would likely see a wage increase through “spillover” effects, as employers adjust their internal wage ladders. The vast majority of employees who would benefit are adults in working families, disproportionately women, who work at least 20 hours a week and depend on these earnings to make ends meet. At a time when persistent high unemployment is putting enormous downward pressure on wages, such a minimum-wage increase would provide a much-needed boost to the earnings of low-wage workers.

In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth, and providing some help on the jobs front."

LOL, 600. Do you have any idea how many economists there are?

Suppose 600 pastors sign a letter to keep marriage between a man and woman? Would you say that's all that matters, that they said that?

Lol until you find a petition that has more economists opposing raising the wage, your point is moot and you know it.

So your standard is that whichever position has the most economists sign on is truth. Wow. Somehow if the liberals you support fall behind in that count, I'm thinking suddenly that won't be your standard anymore...

Um well see there's a little thing in the scientific field known as consensus. Consensus matters. Of course you still haven't provided proof a significant number of economists petitioned to not raise the miminum wage so I don't know why we are still talking about it.

You realize all you did is say what I said you said? You think truth is determined by majority vote.

How'd that turn out for Catholic Church with Galileo?

And again, tell me that if conservative economics take the lead in this voting you think determines truth, you will believe them. Go ahead. Say voting for truth is your standard and it doesn't change when you are losing