peace proposal : 50% of Palestinian lands conquered by the Israelis given back, and halting of the settlement expansion.

[peacefan]

They have an insane culture

they live in the Dark Ages, and their Prophet and leaders are keeping them prisoner there for the rest of Eternity if they could

 

[peacefan]

Your language belies that claim.

aren't you now judging me exclusively on the language i used most recently, right here in this thread for instance?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

What They Dont Tell You: Answers to Questions about Breaking the Silence and the NIF » ngomonitor

The problem with Breaking the Silence

To treat soldiers' testimonies of the exception as reality is misleading, and particularly problematic when outsiders use them to vilify Israel.

www.haaretz.com

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://izs.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/BTS-testimonies.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi-_Nas1baHAxXj8AIHHQulDCwQFnoECCcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3XTVeebyfekHshy19d6XE6

Breaking the Silence: Sabotaging Israel from within

What BtS does, answers to its claims, the parameters of legitimate self-defense, what foreign experts have to say about BtS, who funds BtS and why it fights to keep its informers unidentified.

www.israelnationalnews.com

I studied the second citation, the article on 7 Israel National News.

It spoke with Gerald M. Steinberg president of "NGO Monitor" - what is that? Here's what Wikipedia says:

NGO Monitor (Non-governmental Organization Monitor) is a right-wing non-governmental organization based in Jerusalem that reports on international NGO activity from a pro-Israel perspective.[4][5][6][7]

and

NGO Monitor has been criticized by academic figures, diplomats, and journalists for allowing its research and conclusions to be driven by politics,[8][9][10] for not examining right-wing NGOs,[10] and for spreading misinformation.[11]

That's a long winded way of saying it's a Zionist lobbying organization.

Moving on, the article asks the Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon for hiw views and unsurprisingly he berates BtS. Next its the turn of Benny Ziffer the writer at Haaretz, he complains of the "destructive approach" that BtS has adopted and laments the fact this "influences individuals outside the country" - fancy that, writing that influences people, how shocking.

Of course influencing people overseas is precisely what Zionist lobbying is all about, Ziffer has never written a piece condemning a right wing lobbying group - if you believe he has then share a reference to that here.

Then we meet Natan Sharansky chairman of the "Jewish Agency" - eh? who are these people?

As an organization, it encourages immigration of Jews in diaspora to the Land of Israel, and oversees their integration with the State of Israel.[7] Since 1948, the Jewish Agency claims to have brought 3 million immigrants to Israel,[8] where it offers them transitional housing in "absorption centers" throughout the country.[9]

That's Zionist code for bringing more settlers into Israel.

The Jewish Agency is funded by the Jewish Federations of North America (JFNA), Keren Hayesod, major Jewish communities and federations, and foundations and donors from Israel and around the world.[14][15]

The Jewish Agency

"was established in 1929 as the operative branch of the World Zionist Organization (WZO)".

So, another Zionist lobbying group, who's goal is to indoctrinate the gullible public into being sympathetic to Israeli apartheid and racism by pretending there is no apartheid or racism.

Sharansky says, in the article:

He urged institutions involved in public diplomacy “to fight against those who try to use the flag of human rights to slander the State of Israel.”

Translation - lie to people.

Further down we hear from "Matti Friedman" at AP, he's credited with writing that

"exposed the media's bias against Israel"

In other words maintaining the Israel victimhood myth, all part of the weaponization of antisemitism and the holocaust, the tools used by all Zionist lobbying.
But note:

Friedman does not question that some of the incidents described in the report occurred.

The paper then goes on to invoke various former military dignitaries from the UK and US who praise the Israeli military and its high standards. Asking the military in Israeli allied states who supply weapons and intelligence to Israel for their views is unlikely to elicit impartial opinions.

The praising goes on for many paragraphs, reinforcing the indoctrination yet none of the spokesman addresses any of the BtS testimonies, these are simply swept aside as the adulation and applause for Israel's "restraint" and "exceeding the Law of Armed Conflict" in its "unprecedented effort to avoid inflicting civilian casualties".

No mention of the testimonies themselves, the article is not about what the soldiers saw or experienced, it is about invalidating the very idea of exposing wrongdoing.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

There are no Jewish settlements in Gaza

That's true but there are Jewish settlements just outside Gaza, built on land where Arab villages once stood, since destroyed and cleared away and their populations expelled to make room for Zionist occupants.

Many in Gaza today were either residents of these villages or are descendants of them. They live in Gaza, staring across the land and see Jews thriving in places that were once their homes, ancestral homes were generations of people lived in relative peace for centuries until the Israelis stormtroopers arrived in the 1920s

 

[Mac-7]

That's true but there are Jewish settlements just outside Gaza, built on land where Arab villages once stood, since destroyed and cleared away and their populations expelled to make room for Zionist occupants.

Thats a consequence of the refusal of the Arabs to accept the peaceful UN two state compromise in 1948

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

No, Gaza has not shrunk. It was unilaterally given to Arabs and they elected a government. And right after it was turned over, the rockets began. Israel left resources and allowed trade and movement between Israel and Gaza. October 7 took place during a supposed cease fire when Israel was sending (literally) tons of material and food daily. There was no encroaching. That you use language as you do and advocate for a particular position makes your suggestion problematic.

Can you cite a source for the claim "It was unilaterally given to Arabs"?

You speak of ceasefires, lets take a look at the history of those shall we:

Israel is a serial violator of ceasefires.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Let's not forget that you have hate in your heart and are looking to blame Israel for all sorts of things.

This man too I suppose has hate in his heart? he grew up in Nazi Germany and knows first hand, the way of the Nazi, he wasn't fooled, you obviously have been, but Meyer did not hate Jews.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

That's a consequence of the refusal of the Arabs to accept the peaceful UN two state compromise in 1948

Arab refusal to accept the partition plan does not under any law I'm aware of, justify massacres and ethnic cleansing. The Zionist lobby had been hard at work seeking to get its rapacious plan adopted:

President Truman was, according to Roger Cohen, embittered by feelings of being a hostage to the lobby and its 'unwarranted interference', which he blamed for the contemporary impasse. When a formal American declaration in favour of partition was given on 11 October, a public relations authority declared to the Zionist Emergency Council in a closed meeting: 'under no circumstances should any of us believe or think we had won because of the devotion of the American Government to our cause. We had won because of the sheer pressure of political logistics that was applied by the Jewish leadership in the United States'.

State Department advice critical of the controversial UNSCOP recommendation to give the overwhelmingly Arab town of Jaffa, and the Negev, to the Jews was overturned by an urgent and secret late meeting organized for Chaim Weizman with Truman, which immediately countermanded the recommendation.

Proponents of the Plan reportedly put pressure on nations to vote yes to the Partition Plan. A telegram signed by 26 US Senators with influence on foreign aid bills was sent to wavering countries, seeking their support for the partition plan.[96] The US Senate was considering a large aid package at the time, including 60 million dollars to China.[97][98] Many nations reported pressure directed specifically at them:

• 
  United States (Vote: For): President Truman later noted, "The facts were that not only were there pressure movements around the United Nations unlike anything that had been seen there before, but that the White House, too, was subjected to a constant barrage. I do not think I ever had as much pressure and propaganda aimed at the White House as I had in this instance. The persistence of a few of the extreme Zionist leaders—actuated by political motives and engaging in political threats—disturbed and annoyed me."[99]

Lets make no mistake here, the Zionists were extremists and well financed and influenced the proceedings in order to secure a partition plan that gave them maximum territory, even the plan that was adopted with the majority of land going to a minority (Jews) was deemed by some to be insufficient, some Zionist leaders wanted ALL OF PALESTINE, they did not even want to partition it at all!

He [Begin] also stated that "the bisection [partitioning] of our homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized."[120] Begin was sure that the creation of a Jewish state would make territorial expansion possible, "after the shedding of much blood."[121]

So the Arabs were well aware of the Zionists long term objectives, to seize territory and accepting the agreement would have been pointless, the Zionists want to expand and have been doing so since 1948.

As for the Arabs, yes they rejected the plan and this is the reason:

They argued that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN charter which granted people the right to decide their own destiny.[8][23] The Arab delegations to the UN issued a joint statement the day after that vote that stated: "the vote in regard to the Partition of Palestine has been given under great pressure [from Zionist lobbying] and duress, and that this makes it doubly invalid."[131]

The Arabs knew that the Zionists were manipulating the UN member states (and in fact the UK since 1917) to do their bidding, they knew many members were being pressured to vote for the plan and so they deemed the vote, the plan, invalid it was not equitable in their eyes.

That was in the 1940s, one can only wonder how much more entrenched and strengthened the Zionist lobby is today.

 

[Slyhunter]

let's not forget that Israelis, Zionists, most of them are very violent and secretly-racist land thieves.
and that a lot more land thieving has happened than you describe.

I heard of possible settlers illegally building settlements on both Palestinians and Israelis. I heard of Israel bulldozing ones build by Palestinians but not anything about if they bulldozed the Israelis ones. You can include that in the peace deal, but remove the word "all" from it, only the illegal settlements.. Assuming they exist. Too bad I'm not the guy in charge.

 

[Mac-7]

Arab refusal to accept the partition plan does not under any law I'm aware of, justify massacres and ethnic cleansing. The Zionist lobby had been hard at work seeking to get its rapacious plan adopted:


Lets make no mistake here, the Zionists were extremists and well financed and influenced the proceedings in order to secure a partition plan that gave them maximum territory, even the plan that was adopted with the majority of land going to a minority (Jews) was deemed by some to be insufficient, some Zionist leaders wanted ALL OF PALESTINE.

That was in the 1940s, one can only wonder how much more entrenched and strengthened the Zionist lobby is today.

Arab refusal to accept the partition plan does not under any law I'm aware of, justify massacres and ethnic cleansing.

Israeli self defense in Gaza is neither of those lies

Hamas attacked them on oct 6

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Arab refusal to accept the partition plan does not under any law I'm aware of, justify massacres and ethnic cleansing.

Israeli self defense in Gaza is neither of those lies

You're confused (or pretending to be)

You said Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinian villages that are around Gaza, was a consequence of "the refusal of the Arabs to accept the peaceful UN two state compromise in 1948".

I said that Arab refusal to agree to the plan did not justify the ethnic cleansing and destruction of those villages, villages that were around the southern part of Gaza and are today illegal (lets not forget the recent ICJ opinion) Jewish settlements, the original habitants and their children now trapped as refugees in Gaza under the threat of extermination.

 

[Mac-7]

You're confused (or pretending to be)

You said Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinian villages that are around Gaza, was a consequence of "the refusal of the Arabs to accept the peaceful UN two state compromise in 1948".

I said that Arab refusal to agree to the plan did not justify the ethnic cleansing and destruction of those villages

Actually I rejected your claim of ethnic cleansing

And still do

 

[toomuchtime_]

That's true but there are Jewish settlements just outside Gaza, built on land where Arab villages once stood, since destroyed and cleared away and their populations expelled to make room for Zionist occupants.

Many in Gaza today were either residents of these villages or are descendants of them. They live in Gaza, staring across the land and see Jews thriving in places that were once their homes, ancestral homes were generations of people lived in relative peace for centuries until the Israelis stormtroopers arrived in the 1920s

These Arabs lost their villages because they lay in the path of the advancing Egyptian army committed to eradicating all the Jews, and after the war, when Israel accepted UN 194, they rejected the opportunity to return and live in peace with Israel, so they have no legitimate claim to the land on which Israeli villages now stand, which the UN recognized as lying within the new state of Israel.

A few years earlier, Europe had been flooded with millions of displaced persons whose homes had been destroyed and the aim of all efforts was to provide temporary relief while working to resettle these people, but in the ME, the Arab states still committed to the destruction of Israel, refused to allow any resolution that would have resettled these displaced persons anywhere but inside of Israel, and so at the insistence of the Arab states they have become forever merely a propaganda tool in the Arabs' mad quest to destroy Israel.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Actually I rejected your claim of ethnic cleansing

And still do

I know you do, you're a flat earther to all intents and purposes. You see I don't care whether you accept or reject or agree or disagree, I am here to show others that the Zionist mantra can be readily exposed as fiction, make believe, nothing but mind games.

Here's some of the villages that Arabs were driven out of and are now Jewish settlements

Al-Imara - 46 people expelled
Al-Muharraqa - 673 people expelled
Huj, Gaza - 940 people expelled

Here's a bit of info about Huj:

As the Egyptian army advanced from the south a decision was taken towards the end of May 1948 by the Negev Brigade to expel the villagers of Huj from their lands, and on 31 May, their houses were blown up, their assets looted, and they were driven off to the Gaza Strip.

I could go on for hours, Israel has been so very very bad. But look - Why are you, why is anyone, suprised to see 75 years later, the families of those who were expelled, fighting back against the foreigners from Europe who stole their land, destroyed their houses and made them refugees?

The lies the Zionists need to tell are so huge that no sane person will take them seriously, that's why the lies are always accompanied by the psychological weapons of antisemitism, the holocaust and cries of eternal victimhood.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

These Arabs lost their villages because they lay in the path of the advancing Egyptian army...

Look man:

As the Egyptian army advanced from the south a decision was taken towards the end of May 1948 by the Negev Brigade to expel the villagers of Huj from their lands, and on 31 May, their houses were blown up, their assets looted, and they were driven off to the Gaza Strip.

The Israelis (Negev Storm Troopers) did the expelling and destruction of the villages NOT the Egyptian forces.

...committed to eradicating all the Jews, and after the war, when Israel accepted UN 194, they rejected the opportunity to return and live in peace with Israel, so they have no legitimate claim to the land on which Israeli villages now stand, which the UN recognized as lying within the new state of Israel.

Israel did not accept anything, so this is more propaganda, here's what Wikipedia says about Israel and resolution 194:

Israel does not believe that it has an obligation to let the refugees return, a view was promulgated by the Israeli leadership even before resolution 194 was adopted. In a cabinet meeting in June 1948 Israel's first Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion stated: "They [the Palestinians] lost and fled. Their return must now be prevented.... And I will oppose their return also after the war."[22] Ben-Gurion's words were echoed by Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir who in 1992 declared that the return of the Palestinian refugees "will never happen in any way, shape or form. There is only a Jewish right of return to the land of Israel."[23]

Hence the ICJ's recent legal opinion. The Zionist regime is utterly evil, racist to the core and must be destroyed as was the Third Reich.

I fully expect another round of smoke and mirrors and hand waving as the Zionists here desperately try to polish the turd that is Israel.

 

[rosends]

aren't you now judging me exclusively on the language i used most recently, right here in this thread for instance?

Yes. Why? How else would I judge you?

 

[peacefan]

I know you do, you're a flat earther to all intents and purposes. You see I don't care whether you accept or reject or agree or disagree, I am here to show others that the Zionist mantra can be readily exposed as fiction, make believe, nothing but mind games.

Here's some of the villages that Arabs were driven out of and are now Jewish settlements

Al-Imara - 46 people expelled
Al-Muharraqa - 673 people expelled
Huj, Gaza - 940 people expelled

Here's a bit of info about Huj:



I could go on for hours, Israel has been so very very bad. But look - Why are you, why is anyone, suprised to see 75 years later, the families of those who were expelled, fighting back against the foreigners from Europe who stole their land, destroyed their houses and made them refugees?

The lies the Zionists need to tell are so huge that no sane person will take them seriously, that's why the lies are always accompanied by the psychological weapons of antisemitism, the holocaust and cries of eternal victimhood.

Muslims are into this as well, to lure bystanders into their views.

 

[peacefan]

Yes. Why? How else would I judge you?

the totality of who i am.
but people like you like to judge on face value.
you're hopeless.

 

[rosends]

I studied the second citation, the article on 7 Israel National News.

It spoke with Gerald M. Steinberg president of "NGO Monitor" - what is that? Here's what Wikipedia says:



and



That's a long winded way of saying it's a Zionist lobbying organization.

Moving on, the article asks the Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon for hiw views and unsurprisingly he berates BtS. Next its the turn of Benny Ziffer the writer at Haaretz, he complains of the "destructive approach" that BtS has adopted and laments the fact this "influences individuals outside the country" - fancy that, writing that influences people, how shocking.

Of course influencing people overseas is precisely what Zionist lobbying is all about, Ziffer has never written a piece condemning a right wing lobbying group - if you believe he has then share a reference to that here.

Then we meet Natan Sharansky chairman of the "Jewish Agency" - eh? who are these people?



That's Zionist code for bringing more settlers into Israel.



The Jewish Agency



So, another Zionist lobbying group, who's goal is to indoctrinate the gullible public into being sympathetic to Israeli apartheid and racism by pretending there is no apartheid or racism.

Sharansky says, in the article:



Translation - lie to people.

Further down we hear from "Matti Friedman" at AP, he's credited with writing that



In other words maintaining the Israel victimhood myth, all part of the weaponization of antisemitism and the holocaust, the tools used by all Zionist lobbying.
But note:



The paper then goes on to invoke various former military dignitaries from the UK and US who praise the Israeli military and its high standards. Asking the military in Israeli allied states who supply weapons and intelligence to Israel for their views is unlikely to elicit impartial opinions.

The praising goes on for many paragraphs, reinforcing the indoctrination yet none of the spokesman addresses any of the BtS testimonies, these are simply swept aside as the adulation and applause for Israel's "restraint" and "exceeding the Law of Armed Conflict" in its "unprecedented effort to avoid inflicting civilian casualties".

No mention of the testimonies themselves, the article is not about what the soldiers saw or experienced, it is about invalidating the very idea of exposing wrongdoing.

Clearly you ujnderstand very little and prefer to attack the sources rather than the information. I expected nothing more.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Clearly you ujnderstand very little and prefer to attack the sources rather than the information. I expected nothing more.

On the contrary I read it and the sources it cites did nothing but attack BtS, they did not examine any of the testimonies in detail, they basically spent several pages "showing" how BtS as a source itself, is not to be trusted and that therefore by implication every single testimony can be dismissed without further ado.