The Anti-Hero and American Politics

[Tumblin Tumbleweed]

In the big picture, I don't think that Trump is what he's being made out to be. I don't think he's a Nazi or a Fascist or whatever terms are being tossed around.

What I do believe is that his closest enablers more likely are. So the Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon types. They're playing him like a cheap fiddle, and they know they can get away with it as long as they prop him up verbally. Just keep telling him how wonderful he is and he'll do whatever you say.

He's just their tool. He's just an empty child in desperate need of validation and adoration. The real villains are the people around him, and the people who enable him.

And back to the OP, about celebrity -- he's a character, playing a role for his directors. And if being the Bad Guy, the Anti-Hero, does the trick, then that's what he'll be. It provides him with what he desperately needs.

Populism sucks.

 

[martybegan]

Populism sucks.

If only the government had a better people then there wouldn't be a problem.....

 

[Mac1958]

Trump is dangerous for America because he IS such an empty vessel.

He is surrounded people who influence his every action who could NEVER get elected because they are horrible people.

And Trump doesn’t care how horrible those people are.

I'll guarantee you that Trump isn't the one coming up with terms like "vermin" and "poisoning the blood". Those words were written for him, and he's reciting them like a movie villain. Trump doesn't have the intellect to utilize terms like that.

Stephen Miller supposedly writes his speeches, and those are HIS words, to no surprise.

 

[rampart]

the

Trump is dangerous for America because he IS such an empty vessel.

He is surrounded people who influence his every action who could NEVER get elected because they are horrible people.

And Trump doesn’t care how horrible those people are.

list of "horrible people" who are elected and reelected is long and notorious. trump's fans love him, because he is an amoral creep and because they have not been "grabbed" by their own husbands nearly enough.

 

[Mac1958]

i am not as follower of trump's 'rasslin' career, but the role of "heel" is familiar to the rally crowds, most of whom think the wwe is real l;ife.

And, bingo.

 

[forkup]

You really want to compare the J6 riot to the BLM riots?

View attachment 875950

Why gives you the idea that I want to compare both events? What's the problem with sticking with your own premise that it was the worst insurrection ever? In other words not serious?


That's the problem with all of you people who try to explain away Jan 6th. In the end you can't on merit so you need to obfuscate.

Be it by trying to minimize, red herrings,. appeals to hypocrisy or whatever. It shows the inherited weakness of your argument.

I don't need now, and I didn't then, defend the actions of those who committed violence following George Floyd. You on the other hand feel you have to defend Jan 6th. Because condemning it, feels like you are condemning Trump. That is a horrible position to be in. And a position you choose to take.

 

[martybegan]

Why gives you the idea that I want to compare both events? What's the problem with sticking with your own premise that it was the worst insurrection ever? In other words not serious?


That's the problem with all of you people who try to explain away Jan 6th. In the end you can't on merit so you need to obfuscate.

Be it by trying to minimize red herrings,. appeals to hypocrisy or whatever. It shows the inherited weakness of your argument.

I don't need now and I didn't defend the actions of those who committed violence following George Floyd. You on the other hand feel you have to defend Jan 6th. Because condemning it, feels like you are condemning Trump. That is a horrible position to be in. And a position you choose to take.

The merits on the "J6 was blown out of proportion for political hackery" argument are simply that all it did was delay one vote for a few hours and Biden took office on time.

 

[forkup]

In the big picture, I don't think that Trump is what he's being made out to be. I don't think he's a Nazi or a Fascist or whatever terms are being tossed around.

What I do believe is that his closest enablers more likely are. So the Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon types. They're playing him like a cheap fiddle, and they know they can get away with it as long as they prop him up verbally. Just keep telling him how wonderful he is and he'll do whatever you say.

He's just their tool. He's just an empty child in desperate need of validation and adoration. The real villains are the people around him, and the people who enable him.

And back to the OP, about celebrity -- he's a character, playing a role for his directors. And if being the Bad Guy, the Anti-Hero, does the trick, then that's what he'll be. It provides him with what he desperately needs.

Let me ask you, what if any functional difference is there between someone who does bad things as an act, or because he's actually a bad guy?

It seems to me that it doesn't really matter if he is an actual fascist or just uses the rethoric to fire up his base. The net result and the reason actual fascist do this is to dehumanize so they can treat their target as less than human. I bet you that that's the effect is has on his followers.

Giving Trump the benefit of the doubt as to his motives make little difference in how he's perceived, be it as an " anti-hero" or simply a villian.

 

[Mac1958]

Let me ask you, what if any functional difference is there between someone who does bad things as an act, or because he's actually a bad guy?

It seems to me that it doesn't really matter if he is an actual fascist or just uses the rethoric to fire up his base. The net result and the reason actual fascist do this is to dehumanize so they can treat their target as less than human. I bet you that that's the effect is has on his followers.

Giving Trump the benefit of the doubt as to his motives make little difference in how he's perceived, be it as an " anti-hero" or simply a villian.

First and foremost, he is the (very) willing face of this catastrophe, and he deserves whatever scorn he receives. So yeah, he would deserve any punishment he got, although I'd be a little surprised if he sees any.

That said, I've never thought that this thing was about him. I've said that here a zillion times. He was just the fast-talking, damaged, needy con man who was shameless enough to tap into what already existed. None of us saw how wide and how deep this thing was, but I have no doubt it began the day Limbaugh went national.

This is a fully separate, fully functional, fully self-contained ideological/informational ecosystem. It had been guided and nurtured by talk radio and Fox and the internet for years, but Trump came along and gave it a bold, brash, aggressive celebrity face. And these people latched on to him like their lives depended on it. This is a true, literal cult of personality.

So yeah, we have no choice, we have to at least try to make him pay. But even after he's gone, the core problem will remain.

 

[Mac1958]

This is pretty freakin' interesting:

4 Ways Our Media Antihero Worship Contributed to Donald Trump’s Rise to Power - Everyday Feminism

Are you surprised by the violence at Donald Trump rallies? Check out these comparisons to TV characters like Walter White, Frank Underwood, and Tony Soprano, and you'll understand how it can happen.

everydayfeminism.com

1. It Blurs the Lines Between Reality and Fiction​

2. It Gives People the Impression That Real-Life Heroes Should Act Like Fictional Antiheroes​

3. People Who Try to Stop the Antihero Are Portrayed as the Villains​

4. It Makes Some People Strive to be Frivolously Violent and Callous​

 

[forkup]

The merits on the "J6 was blown out of proportion for political hackery" argument are simply that all it did was delay one vote for a few hours and Biden took office on time.

Do you realize you are making my point?

I specifically mentioned that minimizing is one of the ways you guys use to obfuscate what happened on Jan 6th. Your response." It was blown out of proportion."

Again the stated goal was to STOP, not delay, but STOP. Biden from taking office. Jan 6th was just one of those efforts. We know this because the people involved testified to that already.

You can ignore and try to obfuscate that all you want. But you aren't fooling anybody but yourself.

 

[martybegan]

Do you realize you are making my point?

I specifically mentioned that minimizing is one of the ways you guys use to obfuscate what happened on Jan 6th. Your response." It was blown out of proportion."

Again the stated goal was to STOP, not delay, but STOP. Biden from taking office. Jan 6th was just one of those efforts. We know this because the people involved testified to that already.

You can ignore and try to obfuscate that all you want. But you aren't fooling anybody but yourself.

What minimizing? It's what happened, hack. J6 is the Reichstag fire on Steroids.

They were given a choice of decades in jail or lesser sentences similar to the Moscow show trials.

This latest bullshit just shows even more your side will do anything to stop anyone who disagrees with you.

Please outlive your progeny and peers and die alone.

 

[forkup]

First and foremost, he is the (very) willing face of this catastrophe, and he deserves whatever scorn he receives. So yeah, he would deserve any punishment he got, although I'd be a little surprised if he sees any.

That said, I've never thought that this thing was about him. I've said that here a zillion times. He was just the fast-talking, damaged, needy con man who was shameless enough to tap into what already existed. None of us saw how wide and how deep this thing was, but I have no doubt it began the day Limbaugh went national.

This is a fully separate, fully functional, fully self-contained ideological/informational ecosystem. It had been guided and nurtured by talk radio and Fox and the internet for years, but Trump came along and gave it a bold, brash, aggressive celebrity face. And these people latched on to him like their lives depended on it. This is a true, literal cult of personality.

So yeah, we have no choice, we have to at least try to make him pay. But even after he's gone, the core problem will remain.

It is about him in the sense that he set up the permission structure for those people that are actual fascists.

I doubt that anyone BUT him would ever have been able to do it. Simply because he's shameless about it. No actual politician in the US would ever have thought it's a legitimate path to the presidency.

In hindsight speaking to the illiberal and only the illiberal people and simply bully the rest is obvious. But that's in hindsight.

 

[kyzr]

Why gives you the idea that I want to compare both events? What's the problem with sticking with your own premise that it was the worst insurrection ever? In other words not serious?
That's the problem with all of you people who try to explain away Jan 6th. In the end you can't on merit so you need to obfuscate.
Be it by trying to minimize, red herrings,. appeals to hypocrisy or whatever. It shows the inherited weakness of your argument.
I don't need now, and I didn't, defend the actions of those who committed violence following George Floyd. You on the other hand feel you have to defend Jan 6th. Because condemning it, feels like you are condemning Trump. That is a horrible position to be in. And a position you choose to take.

1. I know that you don't want to compare both events. Because that would confirm the double-standard of the way the DOJ applies the "LAW". The "LAW" is politicized. Democrats can't break the law, and republicans get slammed unfairly. Its called "LAWFARE".

2. J6 was a bad idea. However, calling it an "insurrection" is "lawfare" because Trump and Capital Police Chief Sund BOTH requested the National Guard for J6, requests that were denied by Sgt. at Arms Irving based on Pelosi's policy. If J6 was a planned "insurrection" why would Trump request the NG? He wouldn't have.

3. I'm not defending J6. As I said, J6 was a bad idea. But calling it an insurrection is bullshit. It was a protest that morphed into a riot because Mayor Bowser said her police could handle the rally, but didn't. The NG, if provided, would have prevented J6.

My position is correct. J6 was a bad idea. But not activating the NG as requested enabled the riot. That Trump requested the NG BEFORE the riot (actually on J4 Trump told SECDEF Miller to "fill Sund's request"} proves that he was not planning an "insurrection".

 

[candycorn]

I think there is a pretty wide swath of the electorate and population that simply doesn't pay anywhere NEAR the attention to this stuff that we do.

So they look at this -- not sure what to call it -- well-known celebrity character they've seen on teevee, and they see a bunch of politicians (party irrelevant) going after him with everything they've got.

"Fuck it", they think to themselves. And the always-destructive "how much worse can it get? Yeah, fuck those guys, I'll vote for him".

I think that population is bigger than we know, just as the MAGA population was. And that's why I learned in 2016 that America isn't what I thought it was.

Well, I think you have a point but I don't think that was the determining factor in 2016. I think it was a matter of 3 things.

Clinton's baggage/gaffes/health issues for the politically sophisticated among us. She was a wounded duck that folks like me, admittedly discounted. The "snipergate" hits harder when you're a woman candidate. Sorry it just does.​

​

Clinton ran a dumb campaign. They visited Wisconsin only once. I was back in Texas and I actually saw a HRC campaign commercial. Nuts. This hurt the boots on the ground voters who needed convincing.​

​

The last thing was that she was polling so well that the energy for Clinton wasn’t there on Election Day.​

I think there is a certain segment of the population that does subscribe to that whole “fuck it” mentality. But by and large Trump didn’t win the 2016 election as much as Clinton fumbled it away.

 

[candycorn]

1. I know that you don't want to compare both events. Because that would confirm the double-standard of the way the DOJ applies the "LAW". The "LAW" is politicized. Democrats can't break the law, and republicans get slammed unfairly. Its called "LAWFARE".

2. J6 was a bad idea. However, calling it an "insurrection" is "lawfare" because Trump and Capital Police Chief Sund BOTH requested the National Guard for J6, requests that were denied by Sgt. at Arms Irving based on Pelosi's policy. If J6 was a planned "insurrection" why would Trump request the NG? He wouldn't have.

3. I'm not defending J6. As I said, J6 was a bad idea. But calling it an insurrection is bullshit. It was a protest that morphed into a riot because Mayor Bowser said her police could handle the rally, but didn't. The NG, if provided, would have prevented J6.

My position is correct. J6 was a bad idea. But not activating the NG as requested enabled the riot. That Trump requested the NG BEFORE the riot (actually on J4 Trump told SECDEF Miller to "fill Sund's request"} proves that he was not planning an "insurrection".

You are actually blaming the police for the rioters rioting.

Yeah; you’re seriously fucked in the head.

 

[surada]

Well then, if the elites force Haley on the voters, Progs will win in a landslide. Trump is not about anti-gay, he is not anti-Christian though like Progs.

 

[kyzr]

You are actually blaming the police for the rioters rioting.
Yeah; you’re seriously fucked in the head.

1. Murial Bowser said she didn't need to activate the NG for the J6 rally, that her police would suffice. She lied.

2. Trump and Capitol Police Chief Sund BOTH requested the NG before J6. Their requests were denied by Sgt. at Arms Irving based on Pelosi's policy. If the NG was there there would have been no riot dumbass.

3. The fact that Trump told SECDEF Miller to "fill Sund's request for the NG" proves he was not aware of any planned "insurrection".

 

[sartre play]

You really want to compare the J6 riot to the BLM riots?

View attachment 875950

You SAY no OUTRAGE over the VIOLENCE at some of the thousands of BLM protests.
But all this time your group has been & is still posting negatives /outrage.

And you seem unable to grasp Why Americans would be upset over our nations capital being trashed,
people dying, police beaten. and a group whos goal was to stop the presidential vote.
Maybe Narrow minded thinking?

 

[Tumblin Tumbleweed]

1. I know that you don't want to compare both events. Because that would confirm the double-standard of the way the DOJ applies the "LAW". The "LAW" is politicized. Democrats can't break the law, and republicans get slammed unfairly. Its called "LAWFARE".

There is no comparison nor a double standard among the events, no matter what you say. Patently untrue.

2. J6 was a bad idea. However, calling it an "insurrection" is "lawfare" because Trump and Capital Police Chief Sund BOTH requested the National Guard for J6, requests that were denied by Sgt. at Arms Irving based on Pelosi's policy. If J6 was a planned "insurrection" why would Trump request the NG? He wouldn't have.

You're hung up on the word 'insurrection', because it makes the magaturd cult look bad. Call it a riot, call it a banana sundae for all I care. But you don't get to defile the People's House and walk away unscathed.

3. I'm not defending J6. As I said, J6 was a bad idea. But calling it an insurrection is bullshit. It was a protest that morphed into a riot because Mayor Bowser said her police could handle the rally, but didn't. The NG, if provided, would have prevented J6.

Bullet point 2 & 3 could have been made one point.

But not activating the NG as requested enabled the riot. That Trump requested the NG BEFORE the riot (actually on J4 Trump told SECDEF Miller to "fill Sund's request"} proves that he was not planning an "insurrection".

Yeah, I don't buy it.