The Bible Lies. As does The Qur'an

[AVG-JOE]

In my humble opinion.

​

​

That's probably because that was your starting position, Joe.

It's not like you ever made an objective attempt at understanding the context it was written in.

That's a big assumption on your part. To the best of my knowledge we've never discussed my knowledge of The Torah or The New Testament.

I have, in fact, studied both a LOT.

Definitely enough to know that the thesis I claim is common Biblical knowledge - That the Earth was supposedly given to man by God as a possession.

My assumption is based upon your attempt to subordinate religion, Joe.

Do you mind if I test you?

Go for it. Just remember that I have a real life and may not answer quickly. And, more importantly, because I actually know what I'm talking about, I need you to be aware that I have talked people out of their faith and, for the record, you are asking.

 

[ding]

In my humble opinion.

​

​

That's probably because that was your starting position, Joe.

It's not like you ever made an objective attempt at understanding the context it was written in.

That's a big assumption on your part. To the best of my knowledge we've never discussed my knowledge of The Torah or The New Testament.

I have, in fact, studied both a LOT.

Definitely enough to know that the thesis I claim is common Biblical knowledge - That the Earth was supposedly given to man by God as a possession.

My assumption is based upon your attempt to subordinate religion, Joe.

Do you mind if I test you?

Go for it. Just remember that I have a real life and may not answer quickly. And, more importantly, because I actually know what I'm talking about, I need you to be aware that I have talked people out of their faith and, for the record, you are asking.

OK, simple question. What was the account of the Tower of Babel all about?

 

[AVG-JOE]

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Not true on paper, especially against the backdrop of our history, and not true in practice.

Ebola is far from alone as a living thing that we share this planet with that still kills Monkeys despite the emerging technology to fight it that has cost Monkeys so dearly to learn.....

Ancient man understood that we are unique in that we are the only animal that has the concept of good and evil and right and wrong, Joe. All other animals operate on impulse and instinct. Man operates on impulse and instinct too, but has the unique ability to override our instincts and impulses for good.

So when ancient man said that we are created in God's image, what he means by that is that we are conscious; that we have a mind; that we are capable of abstract thought; that we are capable of choosing between good and evil, right and wrong.

Perhaps... but even if that is true, that fact doesn't make The Bible true....

And the question we must ask is which is more probable: God made man in his own image, sociopathic jealousy and wrath included, or man made God in the image of man.

Ass-u-me-ing God, doesn't it make sense that He/She/It is WAY bigger than all of the ancient stories competing for our attention, let alone any one or two of them?

Based on the evidence of history, what's probable?​

What it means is that the Bible should be read in it's proper context, Joe. You don't give ancient man near enough credit.

The fact that you choose to see man and God in such a negative light tells me that you have not made an objective assessment.

Given the evolution of space and time, the natural laws, the biological laws and the moral laws, I find it more probable that Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

Not true - I just don't give them any assumed credit for Divine inspiration simply because their stories got canonized.

The ancient stories are no more inspired than the words you are reading now, and I defy anyone to prove otherwise.

I disagree with your conclusions on what is probable, but I agree it's possible.

I find that the evidence of our history and the evidence I can see, feel, touch and study all points to a living world still in the process of evolving toward Sentience.

 

[AVG-JOE]

In my humble opinion.

​

​

That's probably because that was your starting position, Joe.

It's not like you ever made an objective attempt at understanding the context it was written in.

That's a big assumption on your part. To the best of my knowledge we've never discussed my knowledge of The Torah or The New Testament.

I have, in fact, studied both a LOT.

Definitely enough to know that the thesis I claim is common Biblical knowledge - That the Earth was supposedly given to man by God as a possession.

My assumption is based upon your attempt to subordinate religion, Joe.

Do you mind if I test you?

Go for it. Just remember that I have a real life and may not answer quickly. And, more importantly, because I actually know what I'm talking about, I need you to be aware that I have talked people out of their faith and, for the record, you are asking.

OK, simple question. What was the account of the Tower of Babel all about?

My best guess is that a fairly skilled Arab storyteller was bitching about all the damn foreigners and communication frustrations of the day, and his audience could relate to his complaints. He was probably a comedian of sorts with license to exaggerate.

 

[ding]

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Not true on paper, especially against the backdrop of our history, and not true in practice.

Ebola is far from alone as a living thing that we share this planet with that still kills Monkeys despite the emerging technology to fight it that has cost Monkeys so dearly to learn.....

Ancient man understood that we are unique in that we are the only animal that has the concept of good and evil and right and wrong, Joe. All other animals operate on impulse and instinct. Man operates on impulse and instinct too, but has the unique ability to override our instincts and impulses for good.

So when ancient man said that we are created in God's image, what he means by that is that we are conscious; that we have a mind; that we are capable of abstract thought; that we are capable of choosing between good and evil, right and wrong.

Perhaps... but even if that is true, that fact doesn't make The Bible true....

And the question we must ask is which is more probable: God made man in his own image, sociopathic jealousy and wrath included, or man made God in the image of man.

Ass-u-me-ing God, doesn't it make sense that He/She/It is WAY bigger than all of the ancient stories competing for our attention, let alone any one or two of them?

Based on the evidence of history, what's probable?​

What it means is that the Bible should be read in it's proper context, Joe. You don't give ancient man near enough credit.

The fact that you choose to see man and God in such a negative light tells me that you have not made an objective assessment.

Given the evolution of space and time, the natural laws, the biological laws and the moral laws, I find it more probable that Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

Not true - I just don't give them any assumed credit for Divine inspiration simply because their stories got canonized.

The ancient stories are no more inspired than the words you are reading now, and I defy anyone to prove otherwise.

I disagree with your conclusions on what is probable, but I agree it's possible.

I find that the evidence of our history and the evidence I can see, feel, touch and study all points to a living world still in the process of evolving toward Sentience.

The first 11 chapters of the Bible are about the history of the world and began with the beginning of time. I don't see how they could have known the things they did without divine inspiration.

Besides, I'm not really sure that we properly characterize what divine inspiration really is. I've had all kinds of inspirations in my life time. Who's to say that it wasn't divinely inspired. Maybe our problem is that we don't know what divine inspiration is or looks like.

If someone believes that there is a force which binds us but is not a part of us, then who is to say what that connection really looks like or fully understands it.

But to your point about evolving towards sentience, it is precisely that which led me to my beliefs.

 

[ding]

That's probably because that was your starting position, Joe.

It's not like you ever made an objective attempt at understanding the context it was written in.

That's a big assumption on your part. To the best of my knowledge we've never discussed my knowledge of The Torah or The New Testament.

I have, in fact, studied both a LOT.

Definitely enough to know that the thesis I claim is common Biblical knowledge - That the Earth was supposedly given to man by God as a possession.

My assumption is based upon your attempt to subordinate religion, Joe.

Do you mind if I test you?

Go for it. Just remember that I have a real life and may not answer quickly. And, more importantly, because I actually know what I'm talking about, I need you to be aware that I have talked people out of their faith and, for the record, you are asking.

OK, simple question. What was the account of the Tower of Babel all about?

My best guess is that a fairly skilled Arab storyteller was bitching about all the damn foreigners and communication frustrations of the day, and his audience could relate to his complaints. He was probably a comedian of sorts with license to exaggerate.

Joe, it was an allegorical account of the great migration from the cradle of civilization. It was world history.

So my point here is that if you did not understand that then what makes you think you understand the rest?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Just because I don't understand a story the same way that you do does not mean that either of us doesn't comprehend the document.

Just look at The US Constitution, which has been interpreted to demand freedoms in one era and then used to pass The Sedition Act in another era.

When God Himself picks a religion, I will join. But as long as he stays neutral on the subject, I am perfectly free to ass-u-me that He doesn't care and/or He doesn't exist.

 

[ding]

Just because I don't understand a story the same way that you do does not mean that either of us doesn't comprehend the document.

Just look at The US Constitution, which has been interpreted to demand freedoms in one era and then used to pass The Sedition Act in another era.

When God Himself picks a religion, I will join. But as long as he stays neutral on the subject, I am perfectly free to ass-u-me that He doesn't care and/or He doesn't exist.

No. You literally admitted you didn't know it at all when you said, it was your best guess.

I on the other hand have seen the Chinese characters with my own eyes that were first recorded 4500 years ago which tell the account of the tower of babel and how it was a historical event of the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

The first 11 chapters of the Bible are about world history written in an allegorical fashion. And they reveal important truths about human nature.

If you are waiting for God to reveal himself to you, you are going to have to wait a long time. That's not how faith works. But when you do find your faith, you won't have to go very far because his spirit is inside you just waiting for you to make the first move and claim his power.

This conversation isn't about religion per se, Joe. This conversation is about truth and how you disparage things you don't know anything about. You mock what you do not understand.

 

[The Irish Ram]

In my humble opinion.

​

​

That's probably because that was your starting position, Joe.

It's not like you ever made an objective attempt at understanding the context it was written in.

That's a big assumption on your part. To the best of my knowledge we've never discussed my knowledge of The Torah or The New Testament.

I have, in fact, studied both a LOT.

Definitely enough to know that the thesis I claim is common Biblical knowledge - That the Earth was supposedly given to man by God as a possession.

Do you believe that?

 

[Zander]

People that hate the Bible shouldn't read it.

the christian bible is a forged 4th century political document purposefully disguised as a religion to deceive and maintain an evil presence causing victimization and continuous armed conflicts - it is the enemy of good as are the desert religions in whole that everyone has a right to put an end to.

nah, it's just a book.

 

[BreezeWood]

People that hate the Bible shouldn't read it.

the christian bible is a forged 4th century political document purposefully disguised as a religion to deceive and maintain an evil presence causing victimization and continuous armed conflicts - it is the enemy of good as are the desert religions in whole that everyone has a right to put an end to.

nah, it's just a book.

.

nah, it's just a book.

a book of shame as are its adherents.

 

[OldLady]

Huh... less than an hour in and a lightning storm begins....

​

If I Shake my Fist at the Sky

One great Brit Lit I class, the prof is lecturing on the epic battle between Lucifer and God in Paradise Lost as a great thunder boomer breaks out. It was memorable. LOL

 

[Lysistrata]

Ezekiel 13:9
My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations.

This Pope is an arm of the UN. And does not represent God. You are one of the ones being fooled:

Jeremiah 23:16
This is what the LORD Almighty says: “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD.

Nobody on this earth is qualified to "represent God."

I'd have to tell you you're WRONG, Lys. I believe you're thinking that "God" is like this old man with a beard sitting on some throne. "God" is many things to many different people, he is to each of us what we best need to understand and relate to Him as. There is both an Impersonal and Personal aspect to Him, and he makes Himself known in many different ways through many different religions through His Internal Potency.

You've obviously never met a real, advanced spiritual person. I have, and not one of them was some dumb preacher in a church quoting Hymns. A truly spiritual person doesn't say: "Hey, this is what God told me to tell you," they help you find through them God's own internal potency in YOURSELF. God doesn't speak to you through them, God speaks to you through your own heart. They just help point the way a little to guide you in helping you listen and find God in yourself that was always and already there from the day you were born.

No human alive knows whether god/goddess or the plurals thereof actually exist

The always dry, intellectual breeze of mental speculation and denial by someone who has no knowledge and personal experience whatsoever telling others what they do not know because they themselves have never had any personal experience with it!

How it the heck would YOU know whether or not I have "knowledge" and "personal experience"? Still fantasizing? Just what great "knowledge" and "personal experience" do you have that I somehow lack? Neither you nor I nor anyone else is ever qualified to speak for a Supreme Being. Some idiots from various religions think they are, but they are full of baloney. Don't claim that you know something that you just plain don't know.

 

[AVG-JOE]

In my humble opinion.

​

​

That's probably because that was your starting position, Joe.

It's not like you ever made an objective attempt at understanding the context it was written in.

That's a big assumption on your part. To the best of my knowledge we've never discussed my knowledge of The Torah or The New Testament.

I have, in fact, studied both a LOT.

Definitely enough to know that the thesis I claim is common Biblical knowledge - That the Earth was supposedly given to man by God as a possession.

Do you believe that?

Do I believe that The Torah, The New Testament and The Qur'an all present and support the thesis that God has, for all intents and purposes, given the earth to humans?

Yes. Yes, I do.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Just because I don't understand a story the same way that you do does not mean that either of us doesn't comprehend the document.

Just look at The US Constitution, which has been interpreted to demand freedoms in one era and then used to pass The Sedition Act in another era.

When God Himself picks a religion, I will join. But as long as he stays neutral on the subject, I am perfectly free to ass-u-me that He doesn't care and/or He doesn't exist.

No. You literally admitted you didn't know it at all when you said, it was your best guess.

I on the other hand have seen the Chinese characters with my own eyes that were first recorded 4500 years ago which tell the account of the tower of babel and how it was a historical event of the great migration from the cradle of civilization.

The first 11 chapters of the Bible are about world history written in an allegorical fashion. And they reveal important truths about human nature.

If you are waiting for God to reveal himself to you, you are going to have to wait a long time. That's not how faith works. But when you do find your faith, you won't have to go very far because his spirit is inside you just waiting for you to make the first move and claim his power.

This conversation isn't about religion per se, Joe. This conversation is about truth and how you disparage things you don't know anything about. You mock what you do not understand.

I have faith. Who says I don't have faith? I have faith.

It's just not in the same things that you have faith in, but I have faith.

Question for you: I do freely admit that I don't know it all.... Do you?

Another: Do you believe that the answers to the questions of origins and afterlife are settled, or is everything still yet possible and nothing has been proven?

`​

 

[Lysistrata]

I wish that people would take into account that the human race has existed all over this earth on every continent from incredibly ancient times. What ancient tribal people in the Middle East, and later during the Roman Empire, thought is nowhere near the sum total of human experience.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Some people do consider our incredible and terrible history...

Me for instance when I stated my opinion that I think that it's way past Time for humanity to put the ancient Arab stories that continue to drive so much of our world politics in to proper perspective, start looking forward as a species instead of being so strangely mesmerized by history's rear-view mirror, as filtered through modern religions and spoon fed to us by a media composed of profiteering fear-mongers, and drive this Life we've been given back to the stars who spawned us.

It's the ONLY way we win in my humble opinion. Heaven by any other name remains a definite possibility of a firm "maybe" at best, and whatever fate that awaits us when we die is most likely going to be the same for all of us. Death is the great equalizer on a Living Timeline and death, the processes of dying, and what happens to the software that drives our flesh is likely not going to be affected by our feelings about each other and things on this Timeline ride that we share with every earthling that continues to survive and evolve right along side of us, be they fish, fowl or fellow primate.


Newsflash! The dinosaurs didn't get "wiped out"... they adapted and became the rich bird population that survives and thrives along side of us as best they can in a changing environment. Dinosaurs are still evolving right along side us Monkeys, and the mosquitoes that we remain at war with, and the whales that we like now, and the monkeys*, and the wolves and dogs, and the... and the... etc.....



I like the BIG picture view.... But I'm a Monkey who's a li'l ahead of his Time.

---------


* monkey. with a lower case 'm' : Indicating the non-Sentient primates of earth.

Pro tip: Don't be a monkey, Monkey!

​

 

[Zander]

People that hate the Bible shouldn't read it.

the christian bible is a forged 4th century political document purposefully disguised as a religion to deceive and maintain an evil presence causing victimization and continuous armed conflicts - it is the enemy of good as are the desert religions in whole that everyone has a right to put an end to.

nah, it's just a book.

.

nah, it's just a book.

View attachment 203484

a book of shame as are its adherents.

Good for you.

It's still just a book.

 

[AVG-JOE]

God (the original cause) created the heavens and the Earth. A lie? PROVE IT.
The Earth was originally formless and empty. A lie? PROVE IT.
Darkness was over the surface. A lie? Prove it.
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. A lie? PROVE IT.
There was evening and there was morning, night and day. A lie? PROVE IT.

Sir...

You are the one making fantastic claims based solely on the theories of the ancient writers of ancient tales. Proving those claims outside the work of the original theorist is up to the one making the claims, not the reader.

I remain as open minded as ever..... if you can convince me that there is a God, I will believe in It. If you can convince me that your religion is the best way to commune with said God, I will join it.

The questions of Origins & Afterlife are not provable. Any conclusions made about them must be based at least in part on faith. We have evidences to review and observations to consider and then each and every one of us gets to decide in the privacy of our own minds what, if any, conclusions can or should be made.

Look at everything. Learn as much as you can about all sides of the debate with the open minded freedom of understanding that ANYthing truly is possible, and then ask yourself, "What's probable?"

When I look at the evidence of history, the ancient stories, and everything that humanity has learned along the way, both in theory and in repeatable fact, my conclusion of probability regarding the unprovable questions of Origins & Afterlife remain... if there is a God, He/She/It seems little concerned with human activity or justice, and the opinion of the people who declared some ancient literature as "Divinely Inspired" is laughable. The most probable reason for Abraham and his descendants to have been singled out of all of humanity for a special relationship with THE Creator of The Universe, is 'Arab ego and story-telling skills'.

The Time is now to put the ancient literature in to proper perspective, start looking forward as a species concerned with ALL of Monkey Spawn rather than just our own blood and drive this Living Timeline back to the stars.


There is no proof. You have faith in your probability conclusions regarding the available theories of origins and afterlife, and I have mine.

Beer? ​

 

[toobfreak]

God (the original cause) created the heavens and the Earth. A lie? PROVE IT.
The Earth was originally formless and empty. A lie? PROVE IT.
Darkness was over the surface. A lie? Prove it.
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. A lie? PROVE IT.
There was evening and there was morning, night and day. A lie? PROVE IT.

Sir...

You are the one making fantastic claims

I've not made a single claim, much less a fantastic one. You are the one who made the claim the Bible lies, and I've not yet seen you make any proof to support that, not that I care.

if you can convince me that there is a God,

I could care less what you believe. If you are looking for proof in a book, then you'll never find it. The proof comes from within, what is called direct experience (and no, that is not faith), and as you've had no direct, personal experience, it shall remain for you forever nothing more than another dry, sterile, intellectual pursuit.