The Bible Tells Us When Jesus Returns - Between Tisha B'Av and Day of Atonement 2029

[emilynghiem]

Yes and to explain what this means in
Secular terms to a gentile, it may help to explain that Jesus represents divine Justice for all humanity by Universal laws of Creation or Nature that God represents.
So Jesus or Justice is Gods Universal Truth and Love embodied in man to fulfill all laws.

You're an Augustinian/Calvinist/Reformed Theology proponent (Utter Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Call by Grace Alone, Perseverance/Preservation of the Saints), just mistaken on some doctrines. I don't think you're going to Hell.

Parture is definitely going to Hell, and he is desperate for others to go to Hell.

MaxGrit is jealous of OSAS Arminians because the 5th point of OSAS Arminian is "preservation of the saints" OSAS. But notice MaxGrit as a Calvinist is conflicted because he thinks the 5th point of Calvinism is "perseverance/preservation of the saints". But the fact of the matter is the 5th point is "perseverance of the saints" NOT "preservation of the saints."

Calvinists work so hard for their salvation, they persevere for it, because they don't know if they are preserved or not since they just assumed they were irresistibly selected and not preteritioned. How arrogant and self-righteous!

This is essential doctrine for salvation because if you are unwilling to repent to the cross to believe in Christ to be regenerated, you won't be saved because God does not receive someone who is arrogantly or selfishly saved.

You are not regenerated that makes you believe, you are regenerated if you believe. Someone who thinks they were irresistibly made to believe received Satanic grace and under Satanic control.

Dear Parture where I might agree with you is if
people are adding "man made religious conditions" to Salvation.
Salvation comes first by receiving grace.
Then in the Spirit of Christ, we naturally help each other
stay in line with God's will so that we end up following the path.
Any time we err or conflict, we correct each other in Christ.

Now, whatever this "condition" is about persevering
this should come naturally as part of God's will for Salvation
as a result of agreeing to follow through with that commitment.

it should not be imposed externally as an added "condition"
on Salvation that must be met "or else"

The Bible says we should work through our Salvation with fear and trembling.
So there is a process to work through, and we should respect the will of God.

But it's not like we "impose" conditions on this salvation process
by our own manmade religious conditions. that sounds backwards to me.

God's grace is offered freely.
As long as we forgive we receive, then we are guided by God's will
through the steps of fulfilling the law and process of justice/salvation in Christ.

I would be more concerned that between you, me Maxgrit and any others
that we work through our issues and find agreement, forgiveness and correction
in Christ to establish God's will. I would not make a condition out of any of these
things we find important; if they are really necessary they will follow with the
process of working out the fulfillment process. No need to make a stumbling
block or condition out of something that naturally follows from following God's will through Christ.

I would have to hear from Maxgrit if this is a natural consequence of
committing to Christ, or if he really does treat it as an external condition on
salvation to be added so that we are judged by 'works' and religious materialistic rites.

You are trying to use the Bible for your gain or work tool, instead of appreciating the need for initial salvation by being born-again and be made a new creation in Christ. The gospel is very simple. Jesus who is God the Son entered His creation to pay the ransom for the sins of the world, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but receive everlasting life. Jesus shed His precious blood for forgiveness of sins, resurrected the 3rd day to give resurrection life, quickening your spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit; and He died on the cross to bring those who receive Him in co-death with Him to die to our old man. Anyone who does not accept who Jesus truly is and what He has done for us is going to Hell, because you prefer to be eternally separated and so you shall be with a false Christ you have fabricated.

Dear Parture
for people who already agree to follow the laws in the Bible as fellow Believers,
the laws are used to rebuke and enforce and establish agreement in truth.

For people who are not of that tribe and follow natural laws or secular laws
then the same Spirit of Christ Jesus can speak through those laws to reach
those people. When Jesus spoke with farmers who were illiterate he didn't
rely on scriptures as he did with temple Pharisees who committed to these
laws and he held them to the laws! When Jesus spoke with fishermen
he used fishing parables, with farmers he used farming parables.

Likewise, when speaking with Constitutionalists, we use Constitutional
principles they commit to in order to rebuke one another by those laws.
When speaking with Buddhist, we hold them to their Buddhist laws.
With Muslims to Muslim teachings (which incidentally include Jewish
Torah and Christian Scripture along with Islamic Quran as laws from God).

the spirit of God's truth being universal can speak through any of these laws,
as Jesus or Divine Justice is Lord over ALL lords or laws, whether spiritual
laws or natural laws. See Colossians 1:16.

It is true what the Bible says that we will be held to our own words
and account. If you live by laws of science, you will be judged how consistent you
are by your own laws of science. Same with civil laws. Muslim or Hindu laws.
Christians are rebuked by scriptural laws. Atheists are held to whether they
contradict their own principles so they are compelled to correction that way.

If you condemn, so shall you find condemnation; if you judge
others without forgiveness so you will be judged; if you "judge righteous judgement,"
others will judge your judgement. You shall "reap what you sow"
The justice you give is the justice you get.

So as the Bible says, if you forgive others then you will be granted forgiveness.

So it is NOT up to me how the Bible is used.
It depends on the person and audience I am addressing
if it is used literally, spiritually or whatever purpose God uses
it for to establish truth and understanding between people.

Parture if you really want to know
I can even explain Christ Jesus and the process that is represented in the Bible
without having to follow it literally. The farmers and fishers did not have to read the Bible to receive the understanding of the Kingdom of God explained using parables.

Salvation comes from God through Christ and is not dependent on making
conditions of the Bible. Where it helps us to understand, receive and establish
truth in Christ, then that is good that is God's will for why we have it.

But many people learn about forgiveness and healing in Christ by receiving
spiritual healing first, then they learn afterwards about how and where the
Bible teaches these things. The Bible itself is not a condition on Salvation.

You must believe Jesus is God the Son.

Jesus said:
“For unless you believe that I am He [God], you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24).
The Apostle Paul said about Jesus:

“Who, being in very nature God [Greek word is huparchon, which indicates before Jesus came to earth and after His birth, He was always and continuously existing in the form of God], did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” (Philippians 2:6).
Jesus said,

“He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9).

“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am [God]” (John 8:58). Here, Jesus was referring back to Exodus 3:10-15 where Moses was standing before God at the burning bush. Moses asked God for His name, “And God said to Moses, ‘I Am who I Am’; and He said, ‘Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I Am has sent me to you.... This is my name forever and this is my memorial name to all generations.’” In John 8:58 Jesus was claiming to be the “I Am,” the very God who brought Moses and Israel out of Egypt.

In Matthew 25, Jesus claimed that He alone will come back at the end of the world and be the Judge of ALL men:

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him; He will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”
For a man to be excluded from Heaven on the last day, all that will be needed is for Jesus to say, “I never knew you.”

“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.” (Matthew 7:23).

In John 10:30-33, Jesus said,

“I and the Father are One [In Greek, “one” is neuter–not one person, or one in thinking, but one in essence or nature].’ The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered, ‘I showed you many good works from the Father, for which of these are you stoning me?’ The Jews answered Him, ‘For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

John 1:1-3; 14 says:
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Wordwas God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

John 1:18:
“No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only [Jesus], who is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.”

Mark 14:61,62:
“Again, the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, ‘Are you the Christ [the Messiah], the Son of the Blessed One [the Son of God]?’ And Jesus said, ‘I Am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’”

Matthew 20:28:
“The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Mark 2:5,10,11:
“And Jesus...said to the paralytic, ‘My son, your sins are forgiven.’... But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,’ He said to the paralytic, ‘I say to you, “Rise, take up your pallet and go home.”’”

That’s why the Apostle Paul could say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31).

 

[Parture]

Yes and to explain what this means in
Secular terms to a gentile, it may help to explain that Jesus represents divine Justice for all humanity by Universal laws of Creation or Nature that God represents.
So Jesus or Justice is Gods Universal Truth and Love embodied in man to fulfill all laws.

MaxGrit is jealous of OSAS Arminians because the 5th point of OSAS Arminian is "preservation of the saints" OSAS. But notice MaxGrit as a Calvinist is conflicted because he thinks the 5th point of Calvinism is "perseverance/preservation of the saints". But the fact of the matter is the 5th point is "perseverance of the saints" NOT "preservation of the saints."

Calvinists work so hard for their salvation, they persevere for it, because they don't know if they are preserved or not since they just assumed they were irresistibly selected and not preteritioned. How arrogant and self-righteous!

This is essential doctrine for salvation because if you are unwilling to repent to the cross to believe in Christ to be regenerated, you won't be saved because God does not receive someone who is arrogantly or selfishly saved.

You are not regenerated that makes you believe, you are regenerated if you believe. Someone who thinks they were irresistibly made to believe received Satanic grace and under Satanic control.

Dear Parture where I might agree with you is if
people are adding "man made religious conditions" to Salvation.
Salvation comes first by receiving grace.
Then in the Spirit of Christ, we naturally help each other
stay in line with God's will so that we end up following the path.
Any time we err or conflict, we correct each other in Christ.

Now, whatever this "condition" is about persevering
this should come naturally as part of God's will for Salvation
as a result of agreeing to follow through with that commitment.

it should not be imposed externally as an added "condition"
on Salvation that must be met "or else"

The Bible says we should work through our Salvation with fear and trembling.
So there is a process to work through, and we should respect the will of God.

But it's not like we "impose" conditions on this salvation process
by our own manmade religious conditions. that sounds backwards to me.

God's grace is offered freely.
As long as we forgive we receive, then we are guided by God's will
through the steps of fulfilling the law and process of justice/salvation in Christ.

I would be more concerned that between you, me Maxgrit and any others
that we work through our issues and find agreement, forgiveness and correction
in Christ to establish God's will. I would not make a condition out of any of these
things we find important; if they are really necessary they will follow with the
process of working out the fulfillment process. No need to make a stumbling
block or condition out of something that naturally follows from following God's will through Christ.

I would have to hear from Maxgrit if this is a natural consequence of
committing to Christ, or if he really does treat it as an external condition on
salvation to be added so that we are judged by 'works' and religious materialistic rites.

You are trying to use the Bible for your gain or work tool, instead of appreciating the need for initial salvation by being born-again and be made a new creation in Christ. The gospel is very simple. Jesus who is God the Son entered His creation to pay the ransom for the sins of the world, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but receive everlasting life. Jesus shed His precious blood for forgiveness of sins, resurrected the 3rd day to give resurrection life, quickening your spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit; and He died on the cross to bring those who receive Him in co-death with Him to die to our old man. Anyone who does not accept who Jesus truly is and what He has done for us is going to Hell, because you prefer to be eternally separated and so you shall be with a false Christ you have fabricated.

Dear Parture
for people who already agree to follow the laws in the Bible as fellow Believers,
the laws are used to rebuke and enforce and establish agreement in truth.

For people who are not of that tribe and follow natural laws or secular laws
then the same Spirit of Christ Jesus can speak through those laws to reach
those people. When Jesus spoke with farmers who were illiterate he didn't
rely on scriptures as he did with temple Pharisees who committed to these
laws and he held them to the laws! When Jesus spoke with fishermen
he used fishing parables, with farmers he used farming parables.

Likewise, when speaking with Constitutionalists, we use Constitutional
principles they commit to in order to rebuke one another by those laws.
When speaking with Buddhist, we hold them to their Buddhist laws.
With Muslims to Muslim teachings (which incidentally include Jewish
Torah and Christian Scripture along with Islamic Quran as laws from God).

the spirit of God's truth being universal can speak through any of these laws,
as Jesus or Divine Justice is Lord over ALL lords or laws, whether spiritual
laws or natural laws. See Colossians 1:16.

It is true what the Bible says that we will be held to our own words
and account. If you live by laws of science, you will be judged how consistent you
are by your own laws of science. Same with civil laws. Muslim or Hindu laws.
Christians are rebuked by scriptural laws. Atheists are held to whether they
contradict their own principles so they are compelled to correction that way.

If you condemn, so shall you find condemnation; if you judge
others without forgiveness so you will be judged; if you "judge righteous judgement,"
others will judge your judgement. You shall "reap what you sow"
The justice you give is the justice you get.

So as the Bible says, if you forgive others then you will be granted forgiveness.

So it is NOT up to me how the Bible is used.
It depends on the person and audience I am addressing
if it is used literally, spiritually or whatever purpose God uses
it for to establish truth and understanding between people.

Parture if you really want to know
I can even explain Christ Jesus and the process that is represented in the Bible
without having to follow it literally. The farmers and fishers did not have to read the Bible to receive the understanding of the Kingdom of God explained using parables.

Salvation comes from God through Christ and is not dependent on making
conditions of the Bible. Where it helps us to understand, receive and establish
truth in Christ, then that is good that is God's will for why we have it.

But many people learn about forgiveness and healing in Christ by receiving
spiritual healing first, then they learn afterwards about how and where the
Bible teaches these things. The Bible itself is not a condition on Salvation.

You must believe Jesus is God the Son.

Jesus said:
“For unless you believe that I am He [God], you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24).
The Apostle Paul said about Jesus:

“Who, being in very nature God [Greek word is huparchon, which indicates before Jesus came to earth and after His birth, He was always and continuously existing in the form of God], did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” (Philippians 2:6).
Jesus said,

“He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9).

“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am [God]” (John 8:58). Here, Jesus was referring back to Exodus 3:10-15 where Moses was standing before God at the burning bush. Moses asked God for His name, “And God said to Moses, ‘I Am who I Am’; and He said, ‘Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I Am has sent me to you.... This is my name forever and this is my memorial name to all generations.’” In John 8:58 Jesus was claiming to be the “I Am,” the very God who brought Moses and Israel out of Egypt.

In Matthew 25, Jesus claimed that He alone will come back at the end of the world and be the Judge of ALL men:

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him; He will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”
For a man to be excluded from Heaven on the last day, all that will be needed is for Jesus to say, “I never knew you.”

“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.” (Matthew 7:23).

In John 10:30-33, Jesus said,

“I and the Father are One [In Greek, “one” is neuter–not one person, or one in thinking, but one in essence or nature].’ The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered, ‘I showed you many good works from the Father, for which of these are you stoning me?’ The Jews answered Him, ‘For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

John 1:1-3; 14 says:
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Wordwas God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

John 1:18:
“No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only [Jesus], who is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.”

Mark 14:61,62:
“Again, the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, ‘Are you the Christ [the Messiah], the Son of the Blessed One [the Son of God]?’ And Jesus said, ‘I Am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’”

Matthew 20:28:
“The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Mark 2:5,10,11:
“And Jesus...said to the paralytic, ‘My son, your sins are forgiven.’... But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,’ He said to the paralytic, ‘I say to you, “Rise, take up your pallet and go home.”’”

That’s why the Apostle Paul could say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31).

There are no secular terms. Jesus is God. We are all born into sin. That separates us from God eternally, unless Jesus takes that sin upon Himself which He does by shedding His precious blood for forgiveness. Thus, He redeems anyone who is will to accept the ransom He paid on the cross. Jesus wants to spend eternity with those who accept His saving grace through the cross.

 

[emilynghiem]

Yes and to explain what this means in
Secular terms to a gentile, it may help to explain that Jesus represents divine Justice for all humanity by Universal laws of Creation or Nature that God represents.
So Jesus or Justice is Gods Universal Truth and Love embodied in man to fulfill all laws.

Dear Parture where I might agree with you is if
people are adding "man made religious conditions" to Salvation.
Salvation comes first by receiving grace.
Then in the Spirit of Christ, we naturally help each other
stay in line with God's will so that we end up following the path.
Any time we err or conflict, we correct each other in Christ.

Now, whatever this "condition" is about persevering
this should come naturally as part of God's will for Salvation
as a result of agreeing to follow through with that commitment.

it should not be imposed externally as an added "condition"
on Salvation that must be met "or else"

The Bible says we should work through our Salvation with fear and trembling.
So there is a process to work through, and we should respect the will of God.

But it's not like we "impose" conditions on this salvation process
by our own manmade religious conditions. that sounds backwards to me.

God's grace is offered freely.
As long as we forgive we receive, then we are guided by God's will
through the steps of fulfilling the law and process of justice/salvation in Christ.

I would be more concerned that between you, me Maxgrit and any others
that we work through our issues and find agreement, forgiveness and correction
in Christ to establish God's will. I would not make a condition out of any of these
things we find important; if they are really necessary they will follow with the
process of working out the fulfillment process. No need to make a stumbling
block or condition out of something that naturally follows from following God's will through Christ.

I would have to hear from Maxgrit if this is a natural consequence of
committing to Christ, or if he really does treat it as an external condition on
salvation to be added so that we are judged by 'works' and religious materialistic rites.

You are trying to use the Bible for your gain or work tool, instead of appreciating the need for initial salvation by being born-again and be made a new creation in Christ. The gospel is very simple. Jesus who is God the Son entered His creation to pay the ransom for the sins of the world, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but receive everlasting life. Jesus shed His precious blood for forgiveness of sins, resurrected the 3rd day to give resurrection life, quickening your spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit; and He died on the cross to bring those who receive Him in co-death with Him to die to our old man. Anyone who does not accept who Jesus truly is and what He has done for us is going to Hell, because you prefer to be eternally separated and so you shall be with a false Christ you have fabricated.

Dear Parture
for people who already agree to follow the laws in the Bible as fellow Believers,
the laws are used to rebuke and enforce and establish agreement in truth.

For people who are not of that tribe and follow natural laws or secular laws
then the same Spirit of Christ Jesus can speak through those laws to reach
those people. When Jesus spoke with farmers who were illiterate he didn't
rely on scriptures as he did with temple Pharisees who committed to these
laws and he held them to the laws! When Jesus spoke with fishermen
he used fishing parables, with farmers he used farming parables.

Likewise, when speaking with Constitutionalists, we use Constitutional
principles they commit to in order to rebuke one another by those laws.
When speaking with Buddhist, we hold them to their Buddhist laws.
With Muslims to Muslim teachings (which incidentally include Jewish
Torah and Christian Scripture along with Islamic Quran as laws from God).

the spirit of God's truth being universal can speak through any of these laws,
as Jesus or Divine Justice is Lord over ALL lords or laws, whether spiritual
laws or natural laws. See Colossians 1:16.

It is true what the Bible says that we will be held to our own words
and account. If you live by laws of science, you will be judged how consistent you
are by your own laws of science. Same with civil laws. Muslim or Hindu laws.
Christians are rebuked by scriptural laws. Atheists are held to whether they
contradict their own principles so they are compelled to correction that way.

If you condemn, so shall you find condemnation; if you judge
others without forgiveness so you will be judged; if you "judge righteous judgement,"
others will judge your judgement. You shall "reap what you sow"
The justice you give is the justice you get.

So as the Bible says, if you forgive others then you will be granted forgiveness.

So it is NOT up to me how the Bible is used.
It depends on the person and audience I am addressing
if it is used literally, spiritually or whatever purpose God uses
it for to establish truth and understanding between people.

Parture if you really want to know
I can even explain Christ Jesus and the process that is represented in the Bible
without having to follow it literally. The farmers and fishers did not have to read the Bible to receive the understanding of the Kingdom of God explained using parables.

Salvation comes from God through Christ and is not dependent on making
conditions of the Bible. Where it helps us to understand, receive and establish
truth in Christ, then that is good that is God's will for why we have it.

But many people learn about forgiveness and healing in Christ by receiving
spiritual healing first, then they learn afterwards about how and where the
Bible teaches these things. The Bible itself is not a condition on Salvation.

You must believe Jesus is God the Son.

Jesus said:
“For unless you believe that I am He [God], you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24).
The Apostle Paul said about Jesus:

“Who, being in very nature God [Greek word is huparchon, which indicates before Jesus came to earth and after His birth, He was always and continuously existing in the form of God], did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” (Philippians 2:6).
Jesus said,

“He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9).

“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am [God]” (John 8:58). Here, Jesus was referring back to Exodus 3:10-15 where Moses was standing before God at the burning bush. Moses asked God for His name, “And God said to Moses, ‘I Am who I Am’; and He said, ‘Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I Am has sent me to you.... This is my name forever and this is my memorial name to all generations.’” In John 8:58 Jesus was claiming to be the “I Am,” the very God who brought Moses and Israel out of Egypt.

In Matthew 25, Jesus claimed that He alone will come back at the end of the world and be the Judge of ALL men:

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him; He will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”
For a man to be excluded from Heaven on the last day, all that will be needed is for Jesus to say, “I never knew you.”

“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.” (Matthew 7:23).

In John 10:30-33, Jesus said,

“I and the Father are One [In Greek, “one” is neuter–not one person, or one in thinking, but one in essence or nature].’ The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered, ‘I showed you many good works from the Father, for which of these are you stoning me?’ The Jews answered Him, ‘For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

John 1:1-3; 14 says:
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Wordwas God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

John 1:18:
“No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only [Jesus], who is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.”

Mark 14:61,62:
“Again, the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, ‘Are you the Christ [the Messiah], the Son of the Blessed One [the Son of God]?’ And Jesus said, ‘I Am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’”

Matthew 20:28:
“The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Mark 2:5,10,11:
“And Jesus...said to the paralytic, ‘My son, your sins are forgiven.’... But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,’ He said to the paralytic, ‘I say to you, “Rise, take up your pallet and go home.”’”

That’s why the Apostle Paul could say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31).

There are no secular terms. Jesus is God. We are all born into sin. That separates us from God eternally, unless Jesus takes that sin upon Himself which He does by shedding His precious blood for forgiveness. Thus, He redeems anyone who is will to accept the ransom He paid on the cross. Jesus wants to spend eternity with those who accept His saving grace through the cross.

What do you think
Equal Justice Under Law
Refers to.

 

[Parture]

Yes and to explain what this means in
Secular terms to a gentile, it may help to explain that Jesus represents divine Justice for all humanity by Universal laws of Creation or Nature that God represents.
So Jesus or Justice is Gods Universal Truth and Love embodied in man to fulfill all laws.

You are trying to use the Bible for your gain or work tool, instead of appreciating the need for initial salvation by being born-again and be made a new creation in Christ. The gospel is very simple. Jesus who is God the Son entered His creation to pay the ransom for the sins of the world, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but receive everlasting life. Jesus shed His precious blood for forgiveness of sins, resurrected the 3rd day to give resurrection life, quickening your spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit; and He died on the cross to bring those who receive Him in co-death with Him to die to our old man. Anyone who does not accept who Jesus truly is and what He has done for us is going to Hell, because you prefer to be eternally separated and so you shall be with a false Christ you have fabricated.

Dear Parture
for people who already agree to follow the laws in the Bible as fellow Believers,
the laws are used to rebuke and enforce and establish agreement in truth.

For people who are not of that tribe and follow natural laws or secular laws
then the same Spirit of Christ Jesus can speak through those laws to reach
those people. When Jesus spoke with farmers who were illiterate he didn't
rely on scriptures as he did with temple Pharisees who committed to these
laws and he held them to the laws! When Jesus spoke with fishermen
he used fishing parables, with farmers he used farming parables.

Likewise, when speaking with Constitutionalists, we use Constitutional
principles they commit to in order to rebuke one another by those laws.
When speaking with Buddhist, we hold them to their Buddhist laws.
With Muslims to Muslim teachings (which incidentally include Jewish
Torah and Christian Scripture along with Islamic Quran as laws from God).

the spirit of God's truth being universal can speak through any of these laws,
as Jesus or Divine Justice is Lord over ALL lords or laws, whether spiritual
laws or natural laws. See Colossians 1:16.

It is true what the Bible says that we will be held to our own words
and account. If you live by laws of science, you will be judged how consistent you
are by your own laws of science. Same with civil laws. Muslim or Hindu laws.
Christians are rebuked by scriptural laws. Atheists are held to whether they
contradict their own principles so they are compelled to correction that way.

If you condemn, so shall you find condemnation; if you judge
others without forgiveness so you will be judged; if you "judge righteous judgement,"
others will judge your judgement. You shall "reap what you sow"
The justice you give is the justice you get.

So as the Bible says, if you forgive others then you will be granted forgiveness.

So it is NOT up to me how the Bible is used.
It depends on the person and audience I am addressing
if it is used literally, spiritually or whatever purpose God uses
it for to establish truth and understanding between people.

Parture if you really want to know
I can even explain Christ Jesus and the process that is represented in the Bible
without having to follow it literally. The farmers and fishers did not have to read the Bible to receive the understanding of the Kingdom of God explained using parables.

Salvation comes from God through Christ and is not dependent on making
conditions of the Bible. Where it helps us to understand, receive and establish
truth in Christ, then that is good that is God's will for why we have it.

But many people learn about forgiveness and healing in Christ by receiving
spiritual healing first, then they learn afterwards about how and where the
Bible teaches these things. The Bible itself is not a condition on Salvation.

You must believe Jesus is God the Son.

Jesus said:
“For unless you believe that I am He [God], you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24).
The Apostle Paul said about Jesus:

“Who, being in very nature God [Greek word is huparchon, which indicates before Jesus came to earth and after His birth, He was always and continuously existing in the form of God], did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” (Philippians 2:6).
Jesus said,

“He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9).

“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am [God]” (John 8:58). Here, Jesus was referring back to Exodus 3:10-15 where Moses was standing before God at the burning bush. Moses asked God for His name, “And God said to Moses, ‘I Am who I Am’; and He said, ‘Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I Am has sent me to you.... This is my name forever and this is my memorial name to all generations.’” In John 8:58 Jesus was claiming to be the “I Am,” the very God who brought Moses and Israel out of Egypt.

In Matthew 25, Jesus claimed that He alone will come back at the end of the world and be the Judge of ALL men:

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him; He will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”
For a man to be excluded from Heaven on the last day, all that will be needed is for Jesus to say, “I never knew you.”

“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.” (Matthew 7:23).

In John 10:30-33, Jesus said,

“I and the Father are One [In Greek, “one” is neuter–not one person, or one in thinking, but one in essence or nature].’ The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered, ‘I showed you many good works from the Father, for which of these are you stoning me?’ The Jews answered Him, ‘For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

John 1:1-3; 14 says:
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Wordwas God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

John 1:18:
“No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only [Jesus], who is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.”

Mark 14:61,62:
“Again, the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, ‘Are you the Christ [the Messiah], the Son of the Blessed One [the Son of God]?’ And Jesus said, ‘I Am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’”

Matthew 20:28:
“The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Mark 2:5,10,11:
“And Jesus...said to the paralytic, ‘My son, your sins are forgiven.’... But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,’ He said to the paralytic, ‘I say to you, “Rise, take up your pallet and go home.”’”

That’s why the Apostle Paul could say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31).

There are no secular terms. Jesus is God. We are all born into sin. That separates us from God eternally, unless Jesus takes that sin upon Himself which He does by shedding His precious blood for forgiveness. Thus, He redeems anyone who is will to accept the ransom He paid on the cross. Jesus wants to spend eternity with those who accept His saving grace through the cross.

What do you think
Equal Justice Under Law
Refers to.

Why do you think you avoid the gospel of salvation?

 

[emilynghiem]

Yes and to explain what this means in
Secular terms to a gentile, it may help to explain that Jesus represents divine Justice for all humanity by Universal laws of Creation or Nature that God represents.
So Jesus or Justice is Gods Universal Truth and Love embodied in man to fulfill all laws.

Dear Parture
for people who already agree to follow the laws in the Bible as fellow Believers,
the laws are used to rebuke and enforce and establish agreement in truth.

For people who are not of that tribe and follow natural laws or secular laws
then the same Spirit of Christ Jesus can speak through those laws to reach
those people. When Jesus spoke with farmers who were illiterate he didn't
rely on scriptures as he did with temple Pharisees who committed to these
laws and he held them to the laws! When Jesus spoke with fishermen
he used fishing parables, with farmers he used farming parables.

Likewise, when speaking with Constitutionalists, we use Constitutional
principles they commit to in order to rebuke one another by those laws.
When speaking with Buddhist, we hold them to their Buddhist laws.
With Muslims to Muslim teachings (which incidentally include Jewish
Torah and Christian Scripture along with Islamic Quran as laws from God).

the spirit of God's truth being universal can speak through any of these laws,
as Jesus or Divine Justice is Lord over ALL lords or laws, whether spiritual
laws or natural laws. See Colossians 1:16.

It is true what the Bible says that we will be held to our own words
and account. If you live by laws of science, you will be judged how consistent you
are by your own laws of science. Same with civil laws. Muslim or Hindu laws.
Christians are rebuked by scriptural laws. Atheists are held to whether they
contradict their own principles so they are compelled to correction that way.

If you condemn, so shall you find condemnation; if you judge
others without forgiveness so you will be judged; if you "judge righteous judgement,"
others will judge your judgement. You shall "reap what you sow"
The justice you give is the justice you get.

So as the Bible says, if you forgive others then you will be granted forgiveness.

So it is NOT up to me how the Bible is used.
It depends on the person and audience I am addressing
if it is used literally, spiritually or whatever purpose God uses
it for to establish truth and understanding between people.

Parture if you really want to know
I can even explain Christ Jesus and the process that is represented in the Bible
without having to follow it literally. The farmers and fishers did not have to read the Bible to receive the understanding of the Kingdom of God explained using parables.

Salvation comes from God through Christ and is not dependent on making
conditions of the Bible. Where it helps us to understand, receive and establish
truth in Christ, then that is good that is God's will for why we have it.

But many people learn about forgiveness and healing in Christ by receiving
spiritual healing first, then they learn afterwards about how and where the
Bible teaches these things. The Bible itself is not a condition on Salvation.

You must believe Jesus is God the Son.

Jesus said:
“For unless you believe that I am He [God], you shall die in your sins” (John 8:24).
The Apostle Paul said about Jesus:

“Who, being in very nature God [Greek word is huparchon, which indicates before Jesus came to earth and after His birth, He was always and continuously existing in the form of God], did not consider equality with God something to be grasped” (Philippians 2:6).
Jesus said,

“He who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9).

“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am [God]” (John 8:58). Here, Jesus was referring back to Exodus 3:10-15 where Moses was standing before God at the burning bush. Moses asked God for His name, “And God said to Moses, ‘I Am who I Am’; and He said, ‘Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I Am has sent me to you.... This is my name forever and this is my memorial name to all generations.’” In John 8:58 Jesus was claiming to be the “I Am,” the very God who brought Moses and Israel out of Egypt.

In Matthew 25, Jesus claimed that He alone will come back at the end of the world and be the Judge of ALL men:

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him; He will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”
For a man to be excluded from Heaven on the last day, all that will be needed is for Jesus to say, “I never knew you.”

“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.” (Matthew 7:23).

In John 10:30-33, Jesus said,

“I and the Father are One [In Greek, “one” is neuter–not one person, or one in thinking, but one in essence or nature].’ The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered, ‘I showed you many good works from the Father, for which of these are you stoning me?’ The Jews answered Him, ‘For a good work we do not stone you, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.”

John 1:1-3; 14 says:
“In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Wordwas God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

John 1:18:
“No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only [Jesus], who is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.”

Mark 14:61,62:
“Again, the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, ‘Are you the Christ [the Messiah], the Son of the Blessed One [the Son of God]?’ And Jesus said, ‘I Am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’”

Matthew 20:28:
“The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Mark 2:5,10,11:
“And Jesus...said to the paralytic, ‘My son, your sins are forgiven.’... But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,’ He said to the paralytic, ‘I say to you, “Rise, take up your pallet and go home.”’”

That’s why the Apostle Paul could say, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31).

There are no secular terms. Jesus is God. We are all born into sin. That separates us from God eternally, unless Jesus takes that sin upon Himself which He does by shedding His precious blood for forgiveness. Thus, He redeems anyone who is will to accept the ransom He paid on the cross. Jesus wants to spend eternity with those who accept His saving grace through the cross.

What do you think
Equal Justice Under Law
Refers to.

Why do you think you avoid the gospel of salvation?

What? Who is avoiding it?
I just understand there are other ways that Jesus and God manifest and make themselves known but it's still one and the same.

Yeshua means Salvation
Ishua means Joy
Jesus represents Divine Justice
Christ is perfect Conscience
Universal Messiah means Universal Message
Lord of all means Law for all people

God had many names but it all
Points to the same source
God manifested as
Life, Love, Nature, Creator or Creation
Good will, greater good, good faith
Universal laws, truth wisdom

Christianity means perfect charity for all

Just because you are explaining the process
That Salvation manifests doesnt mean you
Distort or dilute it.

Every tongue shall confess.
Not one tongue, but all the different
Tongues that God created us for a reason,

He created natural laws for the gentiles
And sacred laws for churched believers

And Christ Jesus fulfills and governs
Both folds of the one flock.

You and others may specialize in reaching
Those who speak the Biblical laws

There are righteous gentiles called to Christ who speak the natural laws such as Constitutional laws to enforce in the same spirit of truth and justice that is God and Jesus made manifest.

This isnt avoiding or changing salvation but explaining what it means for Jesus as Justice to come and fulfill the laws.

Ps in case you are wondering, my job is more as an interpreter, to explain the symbolism to secular gentiles even atheists.
Once people get that the Bible symbolizes the universal process all humanity goes through to receive universal truth justice and peace, which the Holy Trinity represents collectively, then people like you can explain the rest. my job is mainly to stop the rejection back and forth if people dont understand what the symbols mean or why the other person doesnt get the meaning.
Each person of different tribes may need a different translator. But eventually we all reach agreement in Christ by redressing all grievances and resolving all conflicts in truth.

 

[teddyearp]

Ok, parture, let me please try it one more time. I did not ask for a test, nor to be lectured, all I wanted was a simple answer from you. You did not see the simplicity of it?

So this time I will ask it in two parts, each is just a simple yes or no question.

When you get to heaven:

1.) Will it give you joy to see myself, maxgrit and the others burning in hell?

YES OR NO?

2.) Will it give you joy to see that myself, maxgrit and the others were Christians all along and in heaven?

YES OR NO?

All I want in reply please is yes's, no's or combination.

thank you.

 

[Taz]

My favorite piece of evidence is most scholars concede Paul wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 in which cites the gospel, resurrection appearances, his own eyewitness account, spent 15 days with Peter, and with John and James too. The Creed he cites that he received before the Apostles he was with, goes all the way back to the cross as he was converted 2 years after the cross. There is no naturalistic explanation to explain this away.

Also, Luke wrote a biography of Paul in Acts, but he makes no mention of his death. Paul died 65 AD in the Neronian persecutions. So not only did he write all his epistles before then, but Luke said Acts was part two of his former work of Luke. So that places Acts around 55 AD, Luke around 45 AD. And since Luke took from Mark, that places Mark around 35 AD just 2 years after the cross. Not only that but since Mark was good pals with Peter that places 1 & 2 Peter quite early also.

What scholars? You have no proof, zero, that Paul ever wrote anything since nothing for his era has ever been found, dated and attributed to him. Go ahead, try to find something, with a link...

12 Historical Facts (Most Critical Scholars Believe These 12 items)

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.

2. He was buried.

3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.

4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).

5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).

6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.

7. The resurrection was the central message.

8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.

9. The Church was born and grew.

10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.

11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).

12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

What Do Most Scholars Believe?

In The Case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel (p. 112), Mike Licona said, "[Gary] Habermas has compiled a list of more than 2,200 sources in French, German, and English in which experts have written on the resurrection from 1975 to the present. He has identified minimal facts that are strongly evidenced and which are regarded as historical by a large majority of scholars, including skeptics. We try to come up with the best historical explanation to account for these facts. This is called the Minimal Facts Approach."

William Lane Craig (sadly, a non-OSASer) does confirm Habermas recorded 1400 scholars (both skeptics and non-skeptics alike) whom 75% agree the tomb was empty and nearly all agree the original disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead bodily, for a vision wouldn't convince the disciples of resurrection.

Gary Habermas said (2009) on the John Ankerberg Show, "I just did a count recently of what scholars say. First of all you can count guys on one hand of the 2400 sources since 1975 on the resurrection [in] French, German, English...who think apparent death [is true]. When scholars respond they still cite David Strauss. I think we would all like to have that kind of influence in our writings. His critique has been around almost 200 years." Habermas was referring to Strauss's argument that Jesus wouldn't look much like a risen Messiah to the disciples all battered and bruised.

Habermas and Licona co-authored the award winning book, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus (2004). Historian Paul Maier said the book's response to naturalistic explanations for the resurrection "are the most comprehensive treatment of the subject anywhere." Philosopher J. P. Moreland said the book presented what "may be the most thorough defense of historicity of the resurrection."

Gary said in a 2009 Ankerberg video, "If we start with the cross approximately 30 AD and call that ground zero, 1 Corinthians 15 checks in at about 55 AD whatever the writer, conservative or not conservative, we have 25 years. In ancient historiography this is incredible in a time when the best known biography of Alexander the Great is that of Plutarch almost 400 years after Plutarch. When we learn about the early Caesars from Tacitus to Suetonius a 'good gap' is 100 years; 25 is incredible [for Jesus]. Paul says, 'I am passing onto you as first importance that which I also received' (1 Cor. 15.3)." Paul said, "I make known to you brethren the gospel which I preached to you" (1 Cor. 15.1). Gary says, "This earlier preaching may have taken place 51 AD about 21 years after the cross." But point of fact, Jesus died not in 30 AD, but 33 AD on April 1st (Gregorian), April Fool's Day, Nisan 14, Friday which is no later than 18 years after the cross.

Gary said, "Almost all contemporary scholarship believes Paul received this material (Gal. 1.18) when he went to Jerusalem about 5 years after the cross. Some put it as early as 3 and as late as 8, but he was converted about 2 years after the cross before he went away for 3 years. Paul spent 15 days with Peter. It is safe to say they talked about more than just the weather. Paul said he preached nothing but Christ crucified." Gary said about James D.G. Dunn, "In his recent book Remembering Jesus that this passage (1 Cor. 15.3ff) wasn't just taught. It was already stratified. It was already put in this creedal form within months of the crucifixion."

Gary said (see video), "I did a count recently of people who have written from about 1990 to-date [2009]. 75% of scholars today say that resurrection or 'something like it occurred.' Of that 75%, three to one say it is a bodily appearance. Ted Peters had a book that was published by Eerdmans a few years ago, and 20 out of 20 scholars in his book that he edited said 'bodily resurrection.' Higher critical scholars who are in the minority will still usually concede the appearance involved sight and was embodied."

In the summer of 2012, Gary wrote in the Southeastern Theological Review, "by beginning with a 'lowest common denominator' version of the facts. If I am correct in holding that this basis is still enough to settle the most pressing historical issues, then it is indeed a crucial contribution to the discussions. We will return below to some ramifications here. Regarding my references to the 'vast majority' or 'virtually all' scholars who agree, is it possible to identify these phrases in more precise terms? In some contexts, I have identified these expressions more specifically. At least when referencing the most important historical occurrences, I frequently think in terms of a ninety-something percentile head-count. No doubt, this is one of the reasons why the concept has gained some attention.

"My bibliography is presently at about 3400 sources and counting, published originally in French, German, or English. Initially I read and catalogued the majority of these publications, charting the representative authors, positions, topics, and so on, concentrating on both well-known and obscure writers alike, across the entire skeptical to liberal to conservative spectrum. As the number of sources grew, I moved more broadly into this research, trying to keep up with the current state of resurrection research. He said this again at William Lane Craig's "On Guard" conference, "1 Corinthians is one of six to eight books all accredited critical scholars accept. You can count the exception on two hands, probably one hand. I have 3400 sources in a bibliography from 1975 to the present (2012). When I say you can count the guys on one hand who disagree with this it is not very many. They believe Paul is the best source, and 1 Corinthians is one of the most dependable sources. They allow 1 Corinthians and Galatians. Both are on the accepted list. Bart Ehrman says they are the authentic Pauline epistle. So does most everybody else. Whatever you write, these two books are allowed [indicating Paul's genuine belief]. Paul is writing a mere [no more than] 25 years later. That is incredible. We have no other founder of a major world religion who has miracles reported of him within a generation."

"I endeavored to be more than fair to all the positions. In fact, if anything, I erred in the direction of cataloguing the most radical positions, since this was the only classification where I included even those authors who did not have specialized scholarly credentials or peer-reviewed publications. It is this group, too, that often tends to doubt or deny that Jesus ever existed. Yet, given that I counted many sources in this category, this means that my study is skewed in the skeptical direction far more than if I had stayed strictly with my requirement of citing only those with scholarly credentials. Still, I included these positions quite liberally, even when the wide majority of mainline scholars, 'liberals' included, rarely even footnoted this material. Of course, this practice would also skew the numbers who proposed naturalistic theories of the resurrection, to which I particularly gravitated.

"The result of all these years of study is a private manuscript of more than 600 pages that simply does little more than line up the scholarly positions and details on these 140 key questions....

"[Mike] Licona begins by listing my three chief Minimal Facts regarding Jesus’ fate: (1) Jesus died due to the process of crucifixion. (2) Very soon afterwards, Jesus’ disciples had experiences that they believed were appearances of the resurrected Jesus. (3) Just a few years later, Saul of Tarsus also experienced what he thought was a post-resurrection appearance of the risen Jesus."

Those aren't actual "facts". Facts can be backed up with real evidence. And all your links lead to personal opinions, not peer-reviewed scientific studies. Please try again.

 

[Taz]

This source has 18 fragments from the 2nd century,

A First Century Fragment and 18 Second Century New Testament Fragments

Remember, no person in antiquity has still surviving papyri for that person that is within 300 years later, some over 1000 years, like Iliad. But for Jesus we have still surviving papyri within a generation.

For Jesus we have 45 sources, more than any ten figures combined. Take for example Tiberius who died 4 years after Jesus. He had 9 sources. Of the 45 sources for Jesus, 17 are non-Christian sources. Of those 17, 12 speak of His death, 12 of resurrection, and 7 of His deity. Of the 45 sources, 24 speak of His resurrection.

This really is unprecedented. Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity. Nobody even comes close. So then you realize Jesus was, but He presented Himself to the Apostles as resurrected. Nobody can resurrect themselves unless they are God. Jesus is God the Son. Salvation is on you through Him. If you don't accept His redeeming solution to your sin problem, He has no choice but to send you to Hell. I hope you give your life to Christ now.

The papyri are dated several generations after the facts, and that's just FRAGMENTS of the earliest finds. Not even a whole fucking sentence! Nothing can be proven to have been written during the presumed authors' lifetime. Now you know.

The papyri are dated within a generation of the Apostles. John was still alive 95 AD. These papyri are more than just one sentence. Sometimes they are chapters, books, or just a few paragraphs. Daniel B. Wallace has a whole manuscript recently, and some more papyri, found from the late 1st century. You can quote the early church fathers quoting all the verses from the NT except 11 verses. Obviously what they are quoting came before their quoting it. Nothing in antiquity has sources so close to their events as do we have for the NT. It also depends where you calculate a generation from. Since John wrote Revelation 95 AD then someone who is 10 years old at the time will be within a generation in 180 AD. Nobody in antiquity has still surviving papyri so close to their events. The Bible holds the highest standards. So according to you then Plato, Aristotle, Julius Caesar and Tiberius never existed. Nobody takes your view. No historian gives you any respect.

If the papyri are dated " to within a generation of the Apostles", then you admit that nothing exists from the hand of the actual Apostles. Good, That's progress.

The reason there is no surviving papyri from the middle of the 1st century and earlier is simply because they don't get preserved. That's why you can't find any papyri from anyone in antiquity for a good 300 to 500 years after, except for Jesus which was within a generation. And even closer than that for Paul's travels in the 50s and 60s.

So there's no surviving papyri during the time of the actual events, but there's some from 150 years after that? That makes no sense. The real reason that there's no recording of events when they happened is because those events never happened. Much more likely.

 

[sealybobo]

You are a brainwashed fool. Ignorance is bliss. I'm going to hell? From your reply it seems you're already in hell. Lighten up. Oh, and the best prophesy ever was Halley when he predicted when the comet would return. Before him you bible thumpers all thought that comets were signs from god. Grow up.You're going to hell? LOL. What a fool. If there is no god there is no hell dummy.

You sound uptight like you are trying to hide it with crass words, because you know if the Bible is true you most definitely are going to Hell. Whereas Christians have the joy of the Lord, eternal blessings and peace of the Holy Spirit. It is no longer we that live but Christ in us by the Holy Spirit.

What does Halley have to do with anything? Rev. 6.12 occurred from 2010-15. You can't find a better fit. Wake up! Rev. 6.12 has 3 specific events that must happen in precise order and they happened. Now wait for 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine in which Jesus returns in the year of the "sign of the Son of Man" asteroid Apophis which comes within 25,000 miles of earth, satellite distance range, on April 13, 2029. Last time an asteroid of this size hit earth was 80,000 years ago. It is 3 foot ball fields in length. Because we recently landed on a comet, I believe it is in the mind of some people to land on Apophis to try to change its trajectory. If someone is evil enough and powerful enough they can make it hit earth because it comes so close. Of course Jesus won't allow that to happen, but it will be all the rave.

Since God is proven and Jesus is proven to be God, of course you are going to Hell, because you are too selfish to come to the cross to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. He gives you that free choice to want to be eternally separated from Him and so you shall be. The Bible says you will have no rest day or night in Hell and where the worm never dies, so if you were hoping through suicide you could cease to exist, ain't going to happen.

I'm sorry your story doesn't stand up to the test of science.

As seekers after truth, you will be wise to withhold judgment and not simply put your trust in the writings of the ancients. You must question and critically examine those writings from every side. You must submit only to argument and experiment and not to the sayings of any person. For every human being is vulnerable to all kinds of imperfection. As seekers after truth, we must also suspect and question our own ideas as we perform our investigations, to avoid falling into prejudice or careless thinking. Take this course, and truth will be revealed to you. This is the method of science.

You put your trust in the writings of the ancients. I read the old and new bibles and the koran and I'm not buying it.

And since a real god would never make the test that either I believe you and your churches nonsense or go to hell, I am sure the entire Christian religion is just like all the ones that came before or after. FAKE!

The Koran says you're going to hell. Do you care? Then I guess you realize how I feel about your threats that if I don't believe YOU that I am going to hell. Do you see how stupid you sound? No different than ala akbar rag heads in the middle east who blow themselves up because they too are sure their god is the one true god.

The Babalonians and Greeks had competing gods too. Each of them argued how and why their god was real but the other was not. But wait! Maybe both were not real?

Men were making up gods long before the Abraham gods. So it is clear to me that god himself is made up. God didn't make us. We made up god! Get it?

 

[sealybobo]

My favorite piece of evidence is most scholars concede Paul wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 in which cites the gospel, resurrection appearances, his own eyewitness account, spent 15 days with Peter, and with John and James too. The Creed he cites that he received before the Apostles he was with, goes all the way back to the cross as he was converted 2 years after the cross. There is no naturalistic explanation to explain this away.

Also, Luke wrote a biography of Paul in Acts, but he makes no mention of his death. Paul died 65 AD in the Neronian persecutions. So not only did he write all his epistles before then, but Luke said Acts was part two of his former work of Luke. So that places Acts around 55 AD, Luke around 45 AD. And since Luke took from Mark, that places Mark around 35 AD just 2 years after the cross. Not only that but since Mark was good pals with Peter that places 1 & 2 Peter quite early also.

What scholars? You have no proof, zero, that Paul ever wrote anything since nothing for his era has ever been found, dated and attributed to him. Go ahead, try to find something, with a link...

12 Historical Facts (Most Critical Scholars Believe These 12 items)

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.

2. He was buried.

3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.

4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).

5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).

6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.

7. The resurrection was the central message.

8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.

9. The Church was born and grew.

10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.

11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).

12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

What Do Most Scholars Believe?

In The Case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel (p. 112), Mike Licona said, "[Gary] Habermas has compiled a list of more than 2,200 sources in French, German, and English in which experts have written on the resurrection from 1975 to the present. He has identified minimal facts that are strongly evidenced and which are regarded as historical by a large majority of scholars, including skeptics. We try to come up with the best historical explanation to account for these facts. This is called the Minimal Facts Approach."

William Lane Craig (sadly, a non-OSASer) does confirm Habermas recorded 1400 scholars (both skeptics and non-skeptics alike) whom 75% agree the tomb was empty and nearly all agree the original disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead bodily, for a vision wouldn't convince the disciples of resurrection.

Gary Habermas said (2009) on the John Ankerberg Show, "I just did a count recently of what scholars say. First of all you can count guys on one hand of the 2400 sources since 1975 on the resurrection [in] French, German, English...who think apparent death [is true]. When scholars respond they still cite David Strauss. I think we would all like to have that kind of influence in our writings. His critique has been around almost 200 years." Habermas was referring to Strauss's argument that Jesus wouldn't look much like a risen Messiah to the disciples all battered and bruised.

Habermas and Licona co-authored the award winning book, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus (2004). Historian Paul Maier said the book's response to naturalistic explanations for the resurrection "are the most comprehensive treatment of the subject anywhere." Philosopher J. P. Moreland said the book presented what "may be the most thorough defense of historicity of the resurrection."

Gary said in a 2009 Ankerberg video, "If we start with the cross approximately 30 AD and call that ground zero, 1 Corinthians 15 checks in at about 55 AD whatever the writer, conservative or not conservative, we have 25 years. In ancient historiography this is incredible in a time when the best known biography of Alexander the Great is that of Plutarch almost 400 years after Plutarch. When we learn about the early Caesars from Tacitus to Suetonius a 'good gap' is 100 years; 25 is incredible [for Jesus]. Paul says, 'I am passing onto you as first importance that which I also received' (1 Cor. 15.3)." Paul said, "I make known to you brethren the gospel which I preached to you" (1 Cor. 15.1). Gary says, "This earlier preaching may have taken place 51 AD about 21 years after the cross." But point of fact, Jesus died not in 30 AD, but 33 AD on April 1st (Gregorian), April Fool's Day, Nisan 14, Friday which is no later than 18 years after the cross.

Gary said, "Almost all contemporary scholarship believes Paul received this material (Gal. 1.18) when he went to Jerusalem about 5 years after the cross. Some put it as early as 3 and as late as 8, but he was converted about 2 years after the cross before he went away for 3 years. Paul spent 15 days with Peter. It is safe to say they talked about more than just the weather. Paul said he preached nothing but Christ crucified." Gary said about James D.G. Dunn, "In his recent book Remembering Jesus that this passage (1 Cor. 15.3ff) wasn't just taught. It was already stratified. It was already put in this creedal form within months of the crucifixion."

Gary said (see video), "I did a count recently of people who have written from about 1990 to-date [2009]. 75% of scholars today say that resurrection or 'something like it occurred.' Of that 75%, three to one say it is a bodily appearance. Ted Peters had a book that was published by Eerdmans a few years ago, and 20 out of 20 scholars in his book that he edited said 'bodily resurrection.' Higher critical scholars who are in the minority will still usually concede the appearance involved sight and was embodied."

In the summer of 2012, Gary wrote in the Southeastern Theological Review, "by beginning with a 'lowest common denominator' version of the facts. If I am correct in holding that this basis is still enough to settle the most pressing historical issues, then it is indeed a crucial contribution to the discussions. We will return below to some ramifications here. Regarding my references to the 'vast majority' or 'virtually all' scholars who agree, is it possible to identify these phrases in more precise terms? In some contexts, I have identified these expressions more specifically. At least when referencing the most important historical occurrences, I frequently think in terms of a ninety-something percentile head-count. No doubt, this is one of the reasons why the concept has gained some attention.

"My bibliography is presently at about 3400 sources and counting, published originally in French, German, or English. Initially I read and catalogued the majority of these publications, charting the representative authors, positions, topics, and so on, concentrating on both well-known and obscure writers alike, across the entire skeptical to liberal to conservative spectrum. As the number of sources grew, I moved more broadly into this research, trying to keep up with the current state of resurrection research. He said this again at William Lane Craig's "On Guard" conference, "1 Corinthians is one of six to eight books all accredited critical scholars accept. You can count the exception on two hands, probably one hand. I have 3400 sources in a bibliography from 1975 to the present (2012). When I say you can count the guys on one hand who disagree with this it is not very many. They believe Paul is the best source, and 1 Corinthians is one of the most dependable sources. They allow 1 Corinthians and Galatians. Both are on the accepted list. Bart Ehrman says they are the authentic Pauline epistle. So does most everybody else. Whatever you write, these two books are allowed [indicating Paul's genuine belief]. Paul is writing a mere [no more than] 25 years later. That is incredible. We have no other founder of a major world religion who has miracles reported of him within a generation."

"I endeavored to be more than fair to all the positions. In fact, if anything, I erred in the direction of cataloguing the most radical positions, since this was the only classification where I included even those authors who did not have specialized scholarly credentials or peer-reviewed publications. It is this group, too, that often tends to doubt or deny that Jesus ever existed. Yet, given that I counted many sources in this category, this means that my study is skewed in the skeptical direction far more than if I had stayed strictly with my requirement of citing only those with scholarly credentials. Still, I included these positions quite liberally, even when the wide majority of mainline scholars, 'liberals' included, rarely even footnoted this material. Of course, this practice would also skew the numbers who proposed naturalistic theories of the resurrection, to which I particularly gravitated.

"The result of all these years of study is a private manuscript of more than 600 pages that simply does little more than line up the scholarly positions and details on these 140 key questions....

"[Mike] Licona begins by listing my three chief Minimal Facts regarding Jesus’ fate: (1) Jesus died due to the process of crucifixion. (2) Very soon afterwards, Jesus’ disciples had experiences that they believed were appearances of the resurrected Jesus. (3) Just a few years later, Saul of Tarsus also experienced what he thought was a post-resurrection appearance of the risen Jesus."

Those aren't actual "facts". Facts can be backed up with real evidence. And all your links lead to personal opinions, not peer-reviewed scientific studies. Please try again.

Exactly. When you give the Christian religion or any other religion to science and the facts are weighed, every rational person would have to admit they are taking it all on faith and hearsay. And miracles have yet to be proven to exist by science so when any religion tells stories of talking snakes or rising from the dead after 3 days and walking on water. These things we all know do not occur. There is no supernatural.

 

[emilynghiem]

Universal salvation is the fact that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world to save everyone IF everyone was willing, but most people like you are not willing so you will go to Hell for forever, because you will never give your life to this Jesus who created you.

Did it ever occur to you
that the reason I believe that all people will come to accept and understand Jesus universally
is because I went through that process?

So that's why I believe anyone can come to the same understanding
if I can.

I come from a secular gentile background, and wasn't even looking for God or Jesus
and was never taught or brought up with Christianity.

So if I can come to an understanding that the process of Salvation and Restorative Justice in the Bible is true
and universal for all people, then ANYONE can come to an agreed understanding of Christ Jesus.

It is so universal, everyone can get there, by forgiving and receiving.
I was just trying to resolve my personal relationships that required forgiveness.
And by opening that door, this connected with the prayers of all people praying
in Christ Jesus for healing and restoration. So everyone I know is going through
a process of trying to correct, heal and restore relations. So eventually all will
be healed and restored in the spirit of truth, justice and peace which is represented in the
Holy Trinity.

All of humanity is headed there. If i got there by just trying to fix problems in my life,
everyone else is doing that, so everyone will eventually get there, by trial and error,
when nothing else works but forgiving so that God can correct all things.

Satan put you through the process of everyone saved. Not God. Don't you realize you will forever reject the God who gives free will to reject Him forever as some do, including 1/3 fallen angels and the demons. Satan, Antichrist, Judas, Nero and False Prophet will never repent. They took it to their graves.

Satan divides by fear.
Whatever we can't forgive creates a wall of separation
by fear and unforgiveness, rejection and division.

So Parture
if you cannot forgive Calvinists,
that is your own unforgiveness blocking you
from receiving wisdom from God how to speak to Calvinists
with love of truth to CORRECT the problem and reconcile in Christ

Coming at someone with blame and false accusation
is part of Satan's game of "divide and conquer"

But if we approach one another as FELLOW neighbors in Christ
and FORGIVE one another first, with FAITH that we are able
to receive correction in Christ, then we CAN receive and hear
God's truth and wisdom to resolve the conflict dividing us.

The fear must be removed first.
Perfect love casts out all fear.

Otherwise you are RIGHT that Satan
plays on our fear and unforgiveness
to BEFALL our relations, divide us against each other
so the house cannot stand and the church cannot unite in Christ.

So we defeat Satan by casting out
this fear with faith and love of God's truth conquering all.

We defeat unforgiveness by first
invoking the divine forgiveness in Christ where corrections follow.

If we "follow the ways of man"
man's material logic and thinking tell us
to DEMAND corrections and change FIRST
and THEN forgive afterwards. Demand conditions
on salvation, and then when conditions are met it will follow.
So this causes rejection and we find defeat imposing conditions first.

But the ways of God are
to FORGIVE first, and THEN the understanding
of God and correction in Christ will follow SECOND.

This makes no sense to man.

How can forgiveness be given so freely,
be so powerful to change and transform relations
that you can offer it FIRST and then the
solutions to the conflicts follow AFTERWARDS.

People do not trust this at first.
We by our material nature and FEAR an dDISTRUST
by our lack of faith, we feel more comfortable if we
see people correct themselves FIRST
and THEN "we agree to forgive afterwards"

So this is why we stay stuck.

Where Satan can no longer play this game,
is where we forgive first, let God in,
and then we reconcile as neighbors in Christ.

Even Atheists, Muslims and Buddhists are able
to understand Jesus as Justice and the Kingdom of
God as heavenly peace on earth if we forgive
each other first, and then God gives us the words
and wisdom to use to share the truth in our
different languages and tongues.

The barriers are from fear, unforgiveness,
that causes separation and rejection.

God's will cannot enter a broken circuit
and expect to connect or run freely throughout.

Where we FORGIVE we agree to ask God through Christ
to remove the BLOCKAGES in the circuit dividing
and obstructing the natural flow of God's love truth and healing.

So then by opening up the circuit to connect freely,
then God's truth and will can enter in and do great things.
We have merely to receive, by forgiving first in Christ Jesus
who saves us from these "sins" that separate us from the
love of God.

 

[emilynghiem]

You are a brainwashed fool. Ignorance is bliss. I'm going to hell? From your reply it seems you're already in hell. Lighten up. Oh, and the best prophesy ever was Halley when he predicted when the comet would return. Before him you bible thumpers all thought that comets were signs from god. Grow up.You're going to hell? LOL. What a fool. If there is no god there is no hell dummy.

You sound uptight like you are trying to hide it with crass words, because you know if the Bible is true you most definitely are going to Hell. Whereas Christians have the joy of the Lord, eternal blessings and peace of the Holy Spirit. It is no longer we that live but Christ in us by the Holy Spirit.

What does Halley have to do with anything? Rev. 6.12 occurred from 2010-15. You can't find a better fit. Wake up! Rev. 6.12 has 3 specific events that must happen in precise order and they happened. Now wait for 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine in which Jesus returns in the year of the "sign of the Son of Man" asteroid Apophis which comes within 25,000 miles of earth, satellite distance range, on April 13, 2029. Last time an asteroid of this size hit earth was 80,000 years ago. It is 3 foot ball fields in length. Because we recently landed on a comet, I believe it is in the mind of some people to land on Apophis to try to change its trajectory. If someone is evil enough and powerful enough they can make it hit earth because it comes so close. Of course Jesus won't allow that to happen, but it will be all the rave.

Since God is proven and Jesus is proven to be God, of course you are going to Hell, because you are too selfish to come to the cross to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. He gives you that free choice to want to be eternally separated from Him and so you shall be. The Bible says you will have no rest day or night in Hell and where the worm never dies, so if you were hoping through suicide you could cease to exist, ain't going to happen.

I'm sorry your story doesn't stand up to the test of science.

As seekers after truth, you will be wise to withhold judgment and not simply put your trust in the writings of the ancients. You must question and critically examine those writings from every side. You must submit only to argument and experiment and not to the sayings of any person. For every human being is vulnerable to all kinds of imperfection. As seekers after truth, we must also suspect and question our own ideas as we perform our investigations, to avoid falling into prejudice or careless thinking. Take this course, and truth will be revealed to you. This is the method of science.

You put your trust in the writings of the ancients. I read the old and new bibles and the koran and I'm not buying it.

And since a real god would never make the test that either I believe you and your churches nonsense or go to hell, I am sure the entire Christian religion is just like all the ones that came before or after. FAKE!

The Koran says you're going to hell. Do you care? Then I guess you realize how I feel about your threats that if I don't believe YOU that I am going to hell. Do you see how stupid you sound? No different than ala akbar rag heads in the middle east who blow themselves up because they too are sure their god is the one true god.

The Babalonians and Greeks had competing gods too. Each of them argued how and why their god was real but the other was not. But wait! Maybe both were not real?

Men were making up gods long before the Abraham gods. So it is clear to me that god himself is made up. God didn't make us. We made up god! Get it?

sealybobo
Yes, spiritual healing that uses therapy based on forgiveness
DOES test out in scientific and medical studies

It HAS been shown that forgiveness and faith correlates with better health
while unforgiveness and resentments correlates with stress and disease particularly cancer

the reason is that the body naturally fights disease and normally sheds cancer cells

But if we do not forgive, but hold on to resentment,
this causes emotional stress in the mind that affects the body.

This stress and negative emotion BLOCKS the
mind and body from naturally healing themselves as they are normally designed to do

Look at 12 step programs
look at how much work it takes to let go, forgive and REMOVE
the negative addictions and consequences that build up and make someone stay sick and addicted
not just in mind and body, but sicken the relationships, destroy the community support around someone

And the reverse happens when the person agrees
to forgive and let go of the past, and undo all that negative conditions that kept
them stuck in abuse and addiciton

All humans go through this process of GRIEVING
and recovering when we have a setback

We experience anger and denial, depression
and bargaining before we reach resolution and peace

This spiritual process is what is represented in the Bible
Collectively for all humanity as one

So the STAGES in the process of falling out
and having to recover, to refind our true selves
and find New Life after something goes wrong an dfalls apart

the same process that recovery groups teach
is the forgiveness and healing process taught in the Bible

it is natural laws and natural patterns
that All humanity goes th rough

The Bible summarizes this is symbolism
where God Christ and the Holy Spirit
represent collective unity and harmony restored
between body mind and spirit of humanity
where our physical body and the spiritual collective level of truth and justice
are joined as ONE whenour minds or consciences
are made perfect and no longer have this split
between what is happening physically
and what we think and feel is "truth and justice" on a higher level

The "truth and Justice" we believe in for "peace" to be possible
becomes real, becomes embodied in our real lives and
relations so this "incarnates" or manifests in the real world.

So the Bible teaches the process of forgiving
in order to "receive" this higher peace or
"Kingdom of God" into our hearts minds souls
relationship and lives in the physical world
so we can achieve "spiritual or inner peace" on a local scale.
And when all people go through this spiritual
process of reaching maturity, then we experience
global or heavenly peace on a collective scale
uniting all humanity in universal truth, justice and peace
as symbolized by the Holy Trinity. WE are joined as one
and no longer divided by fear or unforgiven conflicts.
All are resolved, just like all people going through recovery
and making peace with ourselves and each other,
with no more unforgiven conflicts dividing or destroying our
lives and relations. But perfect h armony and understanding between us.

 

[Parture]

Ok, parture, let me please try it one more time. I did not ask for a test, nor to be lectured, all I wanted was a simple answer from you. You did not see the simplicity of it?

So this time I will ask it in two parts, each is just a simple yes or no question.

When you get to heaven:

1.) Will it give you joy to see myself, maxgrit and the others burning in hell?

YES OR NO?

2.) Will it give you joy to see that myself, maxgrit and the others were Christians all along and in heaven?

YES OR NO?

All I want in reply please is yes's, no's or combination.

thank you.

I won't see you in Hell, for the Bible says I can't see you in Hell. The Bible even says you will be forgotten also. Would you think it is just and give you joy to let someone who is in prison for life to be let out to harm his victims again?

Would it give you joy to see that heinous person near brush up against you and loved ones to perpetrate the same crimes on them over again?

 

[Parture]

My favorite piece of evidence is most scholars concede Paul wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 in which cites the gospel, resurrection appearances, his own eyewitness account, spent 15 days with Peter, and with John and James too. The Creed he cites that he received before the Apostles he was with, goes all the way back to the cross as he was converted 2 years after the cross. There is no naturalistic explanation to explain this away.

Also, Luke wrote a biography of Paul in Acts, but he makes no mention of his death. Paul died 65 AD in the Neronian persecutions. So not only did he write all his epistles before then, but Luke said Acts was part two of his former work of Luke. So that places Acts around 55 AD, Luke around 45 AD. And since Luke took from Mark, that places Mark around 35 AD just 2 years after the cross. Not only that but since Mark was good pals with Peter that places 1 & 2 Peter quite early also.

What scholars? You have no proof, zero, that Paul ever wrote anything since nothing for his era has ever been found, dated and attributed to him. Go ahead, try to find something, with a link...

12 Historical Facts (Most Critical Scholars Believe These 12 items)

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.

2. He was buried.

3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.

4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).

5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).

6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.

7. The resurrection was the central message.

8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.

9. The Church was born and grew.

10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.

11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).

12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

What Do Most Scholars Believe?

In The Case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel (p. 112), Mike Licona said, "[Gary] Habermas has compiled a list of more than 2,200 sources in French, German, and English in which experts have written on the resurrection from 1975 to the present. He has identified minimal facts that are strongly evidenced and which are regarded as historical by a large majority of scholars, including skeptics. We try to come up with the best historical explanation to account for these facts. This is called the Minimal Facts Approach."

William Lane Craig (sadly, a non-OSASer) does confirm Habermas recorded 1400 scholars (both skeptics and non-skeptics alike) whom 75% agree the tomb was empty and nearly all agree the original disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead bodily, for a vision wouldn't convince the disciples of resurrection.

Gary Habermas said (2009) on the John Ankerberg Show, "I just did a count recently of what scholars say. First of all you can count guys on one hand of the 2400 sources since 1975 on the resurrection [in] French, German, English...who think apparent death [is true]. When scholars respond they still cite David Strauss. I think we would all like to have that kind of influence in our writings. His critique has been around almost 200 years." Habermas was referring to Strauss's argument that Jesus wouldn't look much like a risen Messiah to the disciples all battered and bruised.

Habermas and Licona co-authored the award winning book, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus (2004). Historian Paul Maier said the book's response to naturalistic explanations for the resurrection "are the most comprehensive treatment of the subject anywhere." Philosopher J. P. Moreland said the book presented what "may be the most thorough defense of historicity of the resurrection."

Gary said in a 2009 Ankerberg video, "If we start with the cross approximately 30 AD and call that ground zero, 1 Corinthians 15 checks in at about 55 AD whatever the writer, conservative or not conservative, we have 25 years. In ancient historiography this is incredible in a time when the best known biography of Alexander the Great is that of Plutarch almost 400 years after Plutarch. When we learn about the early Caesars from Tacitus to Suetonius a 'good gap' is 100 years; 25 is incredible [for Jesus]. Paul says, 'I am passing onto you as first importance that which I also received' (1 Cor. 15.3)." Paul said, "I make known to you brethren the gospel which I preached to you" (1 Cor. 15.1). Gary says, "This earlier preaching may have taken place 51 AD about 21 years after the cross." But point of fact, Jesus died not in 30 AD, but 33 AD on April 1st (Gregorian), April Fool's Day, Nisan 14, Friday which is no later than 18 years after the cross.

Gary said, "Almost all contemporary scholarship believes Paul received this material (Gal. 1.18) when he went to Jerusalem about 5 years after the cross. Some put it as early as 3 and as late as 8, but he was converted about 2 years after the cross before he went away for 3 years. Paul spent 15 days with Peter. It is safe to say they talked about more than just the weather. Paul said he preached nothing but Christ crucified." Gary said about James D.G. Dunn, "In his recent book Remembering Jesus that this passage (1 Cor. 15.3ff) wasn't just taught. It was already stratified. It was already put in this creedal form within months of the crucifixion."

Gary said (see video), "I did a count recently of people who have written from about 1990 to-date [2009]. 75% of scholars today say that resurrection or 'something like it occurred.' Of that 75%, three to one say it is a bodily appearance. Ted Peters had a book that was published by Eerdmans a few years ago, and 20 out of 20 scholars in his book that he edited said 'bodily resurrection.' Higher critical scholars who are in the minority will still usually concede the appearance involved sight and was embodied."

In the summer of 2012, Gary wrote in the Southeastern Theological Review, "by beginning with a 'lowest common denominator' version of the facts. If I am correct in holding that this basis is still enough to settle the most pressing historical issues, then it is indeed a crucial contribution to the discussions. We will return below to some ramifications here. Regarding my references to the 'vast majority' or 'virtually all' scholars who agree, is it possible to identify these phrases in more precise terms? In some contexts, I have identified these expressions more specifically. At least when referencing the most important historical occurrences, I frequently think in terms of a ninety-something percentile head-count. No doubt, this is one of the reasons why the concept has gained some attention.

"My bibliography is presently at about 3400 sources and counting, published originally in French, German, or English. Initially I read and catalogued the majority of these publications, charting the representative authors, positions, topics, and so on, concentrating on both well-known and obscure writers alike, across the entire skeptical to liberal to conservative spectrum. As the number of sources grew, I moved more broadly into this research, trying to keep up with the current state of resurrection research. He said this again at William Lane Craig's "On Guard" conference, "1 Corinthians is one of six to eight books all accredited critical scholars accept. You can count the exception on two hands, probably one hand. I have 3400 sources in a bibliography from 1975 to the present (2012). When I say you can count the guys on one hand who disagree with this it is not very many. They believe Paul is the best source, and 1 Corinthians is one of the most dependable sources. They allow 1 Corinthians and Galatians. Both are on the accepted list. Bart Ehrman says they are the authentic Pauline epistle. So does most everybody else. Whatever you write, these two books are allowed [indicating Paul's genuine belief]. Paul is writing a mere [no more than] 25 years later. That is incredible. We have no other founder of a major world religion who has miracles reported of him within a generation."

"I endeavored to be more than fair to all the positions. In fact, if anything, I erred in the direction of cataloguing the most radical positions, since this was the only classification where I included even those authors who did not have specialized scholarly credentials or peer-reviewed publications. It is this group, too, that often tends to doubt or deny that Jesus ever existed. Yet, given that I counted many sources in this category, this means that my study is skewed in the skeptical direction far more than if I had stayed strictly with my requirement of citing only those with scholarly credentials. Still, I included these positions quite liberally, even when the wide majority of mainline scholars, 'liberals' included, rarely even footnoted this material. Of course, this practice would also skew the numbers who proposed naturalistic theories of the resurrection, to which I particularly gravitated.

"The result of all these years of study is a private manuscript of more than 600 pages that simply does little more than line up the scholarly positions and details on these 140 key questions....

"[Mike] Licona begins by listing my three chief Minimal Facts regarding Jesus’ fate: (1) Jesus died due to the process of crucifixion. (2) Very soon afterwards, Jesus’ disciples had experiences that they believed were appearances of the resurrected Jesus. (3) Just a few years later, Saul of Tarsus also experienced what he thought was a post-resurrection appearance of the risen Jesus."

Those aren't actual "facts". Facts can be backed up with real evidence. And all your links lead to personal opinions, not peer-reviewed scientific studies. Please try again.

These are facts as they are backed up with evidence. Only peer reviewed and accredited work by scholars are included in the list. We call this the Minimal Facts Approach because most of these scholars concede Paul really wrote 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 and believed that the Apostles truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead.

 

[Parture]

This source has 18 fragments from the 2nd century,

A First Century Fragment and 18 Second Century New Testament Fragments

Remember, no person in antiquity has still surviving papyri for that person that is within 300 years later, some over 1000 years, like Iliad. But for Jesus we have still surviving papyri within a generation.

For Jesus we have 45 sources, more than any ten figures combined. Take for example Tiberius who died 4 years after Jesus. He had 9 sources. Of the 45 sources for Jesus, 17 are non-Christian sources. Of those 17, 12 speak of His death, 12 of resurrection, and 7 of His deity. Of the 45 sources, 24 speak of His resurrection.

This really is unprecedented. Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity. Nobody even comes close. So then you realize Jesus was, but He presented Himself to the Apostles as resurrected. Nobody can resurrect themselves unless they are God. Jesus is God the Son. Salvation is on you through Him. If you don't accept His redeeming solution to your sin problem, He has no choice but to send you to Hell. I hope you give your life to Christ now.

The papyri are dated several generations after the facts, and that's just FRAGMENTS of the earliest finds. Not even a whole fucking sentence! Nothing can be proven to have been written during the presumed authors' lifetime. Now you know.

The papyri are dated within a generation of the Apostles. John was still alive 95 AD. These papyri are more than just one sentence. Sometimes they are chapters, books, or just a few paragraphs. Daniel B. Wallace has a whole manuscript recently, and some more papyri, found from the late 1st century. You can quote the early church fathers quoting all the verses from the NT except 11 verses. Obviously what they are quoting came before their quoting it. Nothing in antiquity has sources so close to their events as do we have for the NT. It also depends where you calculate a generation from. Since John wrote Revelation 95 AD then someone who is 10 years old at the time will be within a generation in 180 AD. Nobody in antiquity has still surviving papyri so close to their events. The Bible holds the highest standards. So according to you then Plato, Aristotle, Julius Caesar and Tiberius never existed. Nobody takes your view. No historian gives you any respect.

If the papyri are dated " to within a generation of the Apostles", then you admit that nothing exists from the hand of the actual Apostles. Good, That's progress.

The reason there is no surviving papyri from the middle of the 1st century and earlier is simply because they don't get preserved. That's why you can't find any papyri from anyone in antiquity for a good 300 to 500 years after, except for Jesus which was within a generation. And even closer than that for Paul's travels in the 50s and 60s.

So there's no surviving papyri during the time of the actual events, but there's some from 150 years after that? That makes no sense. The real reason that there's no recording of events when they happened is because those events never happened. Much more likely.

The earliest still surviving papyri is about 80 or 90 AD which is 20 or 30 years after they were written at the latest 60 AD as the Apostles died in the Neronian persecutions 65 AD. And Revelation was written 95 AD by John so some papyri that still survived was when he was still alive . For anyone else in antiquity you would have to go back hundreds of years for the earliest surviving papyri. Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity, even so much so, He has more sources for Him than any 10 figures combined. So if you want to deny Him you have to deny Aristotle, Julius Caesar, Plato, but I don't know any sane position who would do that. So you see you have a double standard and that's how I know you are being unethical. It makes sense to me that since the church fathers quoted all the verses of the NT except for 11 verses that what they were quoting came before them.

 

[Parture]

You are a brainwashed fool. Ignorance is bliss. I'm going to hell? From your reply it seems you're already in hell. Lighten up. Oh, and the best prophesy ever was Halley when he predicted when the comet would return. Before him you bible thumpers all thought that comets were signs from god. Grow up.You're going to hell? LOL. What a fool. If there is no god there is no hell dummy.

You sound uptight like you are trying to hide it with crass words, because you know if the Bible is true you most definitely are going to Hell. Whereas Christians have the joy of the Lord, eternal blessings and peace of the Holy Spirit. It is no longer we that live but Christ in us by the Holy Spirit.

What does Halley have to do with anything? Rev. 6.12 occurred from 2010-15. You can't find a better fit. Wake up! Rev. 6.12 has 3 specific events that must happen in precise order and they happened. Now wait for 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine in which Jesus returns in the year of the "sign of the Son of Man" asteroid Apophis which comes within 25,000 miles of earth, satellite distance range, on April 13, 2029. Last time an asteroid of this size hit earth was 80,000 years ago. It is 3 foot ball fields in length. Because we recently landed on a comet, I believe it is in the mind of some people to land on Apophis to try to change its trajectory. If someone is evil enough and powerful enough they can make it hit earth because it comes so close. Of course Jesus won't allow that to happen, but it will be all the rave.

Since God is proven and Jesus is proven to be God, of course you are going to Hell, because you are too selfish to come to the cross to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. He gives you that free choice to want to be eternally separated from Him and so you shall be. The Bible says you will have no rest day or night in Hell and where the worm never dies, so if you were hoping through suicide you could cease to exist, ain't going to happen.

I'm sorry your story doesn't stand up to the test of science.

As seekers after truth, you will be wise to withhold judgment and not simply put your trust in the writings of the ancients. You must question and critically examine those writings from every side. You must submit only to argument and experiment and not to the sayings of any person. For every human being is vulnerable to all kinds of imperfection. As seekers after truth, we must also suspect and question our own ideas as we perform our investigations, to avoid falling into prejudice or careless thinking. Take this course, and truth will be revealed to you. This is the method of science.

You put your trust in the writings of the ancients. I read the old and new bibles and the koran and I'm not buying it.

And since a real god would never make the test that either I believe you and your churches nonsense or go to hell, I am sure the entire Christian religion is just like all the ones that came before or after. FAKE!

The Koran says you're going to hell. Do you care? Then I guess you realize how I feel about your threats that if I don't believe YOU that I am going to hell. Do you see how stupid you sound? No different than ala akbar rag heads in the middle east who blow themselves up because they too are sure their god is the one true god.

The Babalonians and Greeks had competing gods too. Each of them argued how and why their god was real but the other was not. But wait! Maybe both were not real?

Men were making up gods long before the Abraham gods. So it is clear to me that god himself is made up. God didn't make us. We made up god! Get it?

I think it would help you to first establish God exists scientifically because once you realize God exists, you can search Him out to find where He reveals Himself whether Christianity, Islam or Hinduism. The way you prove God exists is by realizing nature can't start up from nothing, nor can it always have existed because if it did, you would by that definition have had a eternity to come into being before now, so you should have already happened. Therefore, nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, being uncreated. This uncreated Creator is whom we God.

 

[Parture]

You are a brainwashed fool. Ignorance is bliss. I'm going to hell? From your reply it seems you're already in hell. Lighten up. Oh, and the best prophesy ever was Halley when he predicted when the comet would return. Before him you bible thumpers all thought that comets were signs from god. Grow up.You're going to hell? LOL. What a fool. If there is no god there is no hell dummy.

You sound uptight like you are trying to hide it with crass words, because you know if the Bible is true you most definitely are going to Hell. Whereas Christians have the joy of the Lord, eternal blessings and peace of the Holy Spirit. It is no longer we that live but Christ in us by the Holy Spirit.

What does Halley have to do with anything? Rev. 6.12 occurred from 2010-15. You can't find a better fit. Wake up! Rev. 6.12 has 3 specific events that must happen in precise order and they happened. Now wait for 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine in which Jesus returns in the year of the "sign of the Son of Man" asteroid Apophis which comes within 25,000 miles of earth, satellite distance range, on April 13, 2029. Last time an asteroid of this size hit earth was 80,000 years ago. It is 3 foot ball fields in length. Because we recently landed on a comet, I believe it is in the mind of some people to land on Apophis to try to change its trajectory. If someone is evil enough and powerful enough they can make it hit earth because it comes so close. Of course Jesus won't allow that to happen, but it will be all the rave.

Since God is proven and Jesus is proven to be God, of course you are going to Hell, because you are too selfish to come to the cross to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. He gives you that free choice to want to be eternally separated from Him and so you shall be. The Bible says you will have no rest day or night in Hell and where the worm never dies, so if you were hoping through suicide you could cease to exist, ain't going to happen.

I'm sorry your story doesn't stand up to the test of science.

As seekers after truth, you will be wise to withhold judgment and not simply put your trust in the writings of the ancients. You must question and critically examine those writings from every side. You must submit only to argument and experiment and not to the sayings of any person. For every human being is vulnerable to all kinds of imperfection. As seekers after truth, we must also suspect and question our own ideas as we perform our investigations, to avoid falling into prejudice or careless thinking. Take this course, and truth will be revealed to you. This is the method of science.

You put your trust in the writings of the ancients. I read the old and new bibles and the koran and I'm not buying it.

And since a real god would never make the test that either I believe you and your churches nonsense or go to hell, I am sure the entire Christian religion is just like all the ones that came before or after. FAKE!

The Koran says you're going to hell. Do you care? Then I guess you realize how I feel about your threats that if I don't believe YOU that I am going to hell. Do you see how stupid you sound? No different than ala akbar rag heads in the middle east who blow themselves up because they too are sure their god is the one true god.

The Babalonians and Greeks had competing gods too. Each of them argued how and why their god was real but the other was not. But wait! Maybe both were not real?

Men were making up gods long before the Abraham gods. So it is clear to me that god himself is made up. God didn't make us. We made up god! Get it?

sealybobo
Yes, spiritual healing that uses therapy based on forgiveness
DOES test out in scientific and medical studies

It HAS been shown that forgiveness and faith correlates with better health
while unforgiveness and resentments correlates with stress and disease particularly cancer

the reason is that the body naturally fights disease and normally sheds cancer cells

But if we do not forgive, but hold on to resentment,
this causes emotional stress in the mind that affects the body.

This stress and negative emotion BLOCKS the
mind and body from naturally healing themselves as they are normally designed to do

Look at 12 step programs
look at how much work it takes to let go, forgive and REMOVE
the negative addictions and consequences that build up and make someone stay sick and addicted
not just in mind and body, but sicken the relationships, destroy the community support around someone

And the reverse happens when the person agrees
to forgive and let go of the past, and undo all that negative conditions that kept
them stuck in abuse and addiciton

All humans go through this process of GRIEVING
and recovering when we have a setback

We experience anger and denial, depression
and bargaining before we reach resolution and peace

This spiritual process is what is represented in the Bible
Collectively for all humanity as one

So the STAGES in the process of falling out
and having to recover, to refind our true selves
and find New Life after something goes wrong an dfalls apart

the same process that recovery groups teach
is the forgiveness and healing process taught in the Bible

it is natural laws and natural patterns
that All humanity goes th rough

The Bible summarizes this is symbolism
where God Christ and the Holy Spirit
represent collective unity and harmony restored
between body mind and spirit of humanity
where our physical body and the spiritual collective level of truth and justice
are joined as ONE whenour minds or consciences
are made perfect and no longer have this split
between what is happening physically
and what we think and feel is "truth and justice" on a higher level

The "truth and Justice" we believe in for "peace" to be possible
becomes real, becomes embodied in our real lives and
relations so this "incarnates" or manifests in the real world.

So the Bible teaches the process of forgiving
in order to "receive" this higher peace or
"Kingdom of God" into our hearts minds souls
relationship and lives in the physical world
so we can achieve "spiritual or inner peace" on a local scale.
And when all people go through this spiritual
process of reaching maturity, then we experience
global or heavenly peace on a collective scale
uniting all humanity in universal truth, justice and peace
as symbolized by the Holy Trinity. WE are joined as one
and no longer divided by fear or unforgiven conflicts.
All are resolved, just like all people going through recovery
and making peace with ourselves and each other,
with no more unforgiven conflicts dividing or destroying our
lives and relations. But perfect h armony and understanding between us.

The Bible teaches that we are all born into sin by the fall of the first Adam due to his own rebellion, independency and disobedience to God. This sin separates us from God. The only way for God to reconcile and redeem us back to Him is by Jesus entering His creation to pay the penalty in our stead for forgiveness of sins and gives us power over sin since we who are in Christ died with Him on the cross. Since you are unwilling to come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior, you are going to spend eternity in Hell. And that's sad.

 

[emilynghiem]

You are a brainwashed fool. Ignorance is bliss. I'm going to hell? From your reply it seems you're already in hell. Lighten up. Oh, and the best prophesy ever was Halley when he predicted when the comet would return. Before him you bible thumpers all thought that comets were signs from god. Grow up.You're going to hell? LOL. What a fool. If there is no god there is no hell dummy.

You sound uptight like you are trying to hide it with crass words, because you know if the Bible is true you most definitely are going to Hell. Whereas Christians have the joy of the Lord, eternal blessings and peace of the Holy Spirit. It is no longer we that live but Christ in us by the Holy Spirit.

What does Halley have to do with anything? Rev. 6.12 occurred from 2010-15. You can't find a better fit. Wake up! Rev. 6.12 has 3 specific events that must happen in precise order and they happened. Now wait for 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine in which Jesus returns in the year of the "sign of the Son of Man" asteroid Apophis which comes within 25,000 miles of earth, satellite distance range, on April 13, 2029. Last time an asteroid of this size hit earth was 80,000 years ago. It is 3 foot ball fields in length. Because we recently landed on a comet, I believe it is in the mind of some people to land on Apophis to try to change its trajectory. If someone is evil enough and powerful enough they can make it hit earth because it comes so close. Of course Jesus won't allow that to happen, but it will be all the rave.

Since God is proven and Jesus is proven to be God, of course you are going to Hell, because you are too selfish to come to the cross to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. He gives you that free choice to want to be eternally separated from Him and so you shall be. The Bible says you will have no rest day or night in Hell and where the worm never dies, so if you were hoping through suicide you could cease to exist, ain't going to happen.

I'm sorry your story doesn't stand up to the test of science.

As seekers after truth, you will be wise to withhold judgment and not simply put your trust in the writings of the ancients. You must question and critically examine those writings from every side. You must submit only to argument and experiment and not to the sayings of any person. For every human being is vulnerable to all kinds of imperfection. As seekers after truth, we must also suspect and question our own ideas as we perform our investigations, to avoid falling into prejudice or careless thinking. Take this course, and truth will be revealed to you. This is the method of science.

You put your trust in the writings of the ancients. I read the old and new bibles and the koran and I'm not buying it.

And since a real god would never make the test that either I believe you and your churches nonsense or go to hell, I am sure the entire Christian religion is just like all the ones that came before or after. FAKE!

The Koran says you're going to hell. Do you care? Then I guess you realize how I feel about your threats that if I don't believe YOU that I am going to hell. Do you see how stupid you sound? No different than ala akbar rag heads in the middle east who blow themselves up because they too are sure their god is the one true god.

The Babalonians and Greeks had competing gods too. Each of them argued how and why their god was real but the other was not. But wait! Maybe both were not real?

Men were making up gods long before the Abraham gods. So it is clear to me that god himself is made up. God didn't make us. We made up god! Get it?

sealybobo
Yes, spiritual healing that uses therapy based on forgiveness
DOES test out in scientific and medical studies

It HAS been shown that forgiveness and faith correlates with better health
while unforgiveness and resentments correlates with stress and disease particularly cancer

the reason is that the body naturally fights disease and normally sheds cancer cells

But if we do not forgive, but hold on to resentment,
this causes emotional stress in the mind that affects the body.

This stress and negative emotion BLOCKS the
mind and body from naturally healing themselves as they are normally designed to do

Look at 12 step programs
look at how much work it takes to let go, forgive and REMOVE
the negative addictions and consequences that build up and make someone stay sick and addicted
not just in mind and body, but sicken the relationships, destroy the community support around someone

And the reverse happens when the person agrees
to forgive and let go of the past, and undo all that negative conditions that kept
them stuck in abuse and addiciton

All humans go through this process of GRIEVING
and recovering when we have a setback

We experience anger and denial, depression
and bargaining before we reach resolution and peace

This spiritual process is what is represented in the Bible
Collectively for all humanity as one

So the STAGES in the process of falling out
and having to recover, to refind our true selves
and find New Life after something goes wrong an dfalls apart

the same process that recovery groups teach
is the forgiveness and healing process taught in the Bible

it is natural laws and natural patterns
that All humanity goes th rough

The Bible summarizes this is symbolism
where God Christ and the Holy Spirit
represent collective unity and harmony restored
between body mind and spirit of humanity
where our physical body and the spiritual collective level of truth and justice
are joined as ONE whenour minds or consciences
are made perfect and no longer have this split
between what is happening physically
and what we think and feel is "truth and justice" on a higher level

The "truth and Justice" we believe in for "peace" to be possible
becomes real, becomes embodied in our real lives and
relations so this "incarnates" or manifests in the real world.

So the Bible teaches the process of forgiving
in order to "receive" this higher peace or
"Kingdom of God" into our hearts minds souls
relationship and lives in the physical world
so we can achieve "spiritual or inner peace" on a local scale.
And when all people go through this spiritual
process of reaching maturity, then we experience
global or heavenly peace on a collective scale
uniting all humanity in universal truth, justice and peace
as symbolized by the Holy Trinity. WE are joined as one
and no longer divided by fear or unforgiven conflicts.
All are resolved, just like all people going through recovery
and making peace with ourselves and each other,
with no more unforgiven conflicts dividing or destroying our
lives and relations. But perfect h armony and understanding between us.

The Bible teaches that we are all born into sin by the fall of the first Adam due to his own rebellion, independency and disobedience to God. This sin separates us from God. The only way for God to reconcile and redeem us back to Him is by Jesus entering His creation to pay the penalty in our stead for forgiveness of sins and gives us power over sin since we who are in Christ died with Him on the cross. Since you are unwilling to come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior, you are going to spend eternity in Hell. And that's sad.

Man is made in the image of God first, not Satan.
the fall came AFTER man was made.
And Christ Jesus came after that
to restore and reconcile with God's perfect will.

God is still more powerful than Satan.
God allows Satan and demons to teach the difference
between what goes wrong if we don't forgive and repeat our history
and what Christ Jesus can do to heal and correct wrongs
if we forgive first and allow God's will by our FREE CHOICE.

So if you want to CHOOSE to fear Satan more than God,
you do allow Satan to divide and conquer.

If you CHOOSE to let God in to save as many souls
as can be saved in Christ Jesus, then you put God before Satan
and do not block God and Christ from entering in to complete Salvation.

God's will is IDEALLY that no one should be lost.
So if you CHOOSE to believe that God's will is supreme
then God can save all the souls that can possibly be saved.

If we cannot agree with each other, can we agree to leave it to God
and not try to outguess if God is going to find a way to use
Jesus to save all souls, to make sure all receive and finish the process
to be included in Salvation. I happen to have faith that God can do all things
that are otherwise impossible, so I trust God to save the maximum through Christ.
if Jesus is the Messiah for all humanity, that includes all people, so that is
what I agree and "give permission" to God to fulfill if that is God's will.

If God decides otherwise, it isn't because I blocked it by teaching "it wasn't possible"
and turning people away from Salvation.

 

[teddyearp]

So Parture, do you know how to read? Is it that hard to answer a simple yes or no question? All I wanted was two words. A yes or no to the first question, not a lecture. And a simple yes or no to the second question, not another question directed at me.

So, I will again try. Maybe if I make it just one question you will answer directly instead of deflecting.

When you get to heaven will it give you joy if you find out that myself, maxgrit, and the others were also considered Christians and wound up in heaven too?

YES or NO?

 

[sealybobo]

You are a brainwashed fool. Ignorance is bliss. I'm going to hell? From your reply it seems you're already in hell. Lighten up. Oh, and the best prophesy ever was Halley when he predicted when the comet would return. Before him you bible thumpers all thought that comets were signs from god. Grow up.You're going to hell? LOL. What a fool. If there is no god there is no hell dummy.

You sound uptight like you are trying to hide it with crass words, because you know if the Bible is true you most definitely are going to Hell. Whereas Christians have the joy of the Lord, eternal blessings and peace of the Holy Spirit. It is no longer we that live but Christ in us by the Holy Spirit.

What does Halley have to do with anything? Rev. 6.12 occurred from 2010-15. You can't find a better fit. Wake up! Rev. 6.12 has 3 specific events that must happen in precise order and they happened. Now wait for 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine in which Jesus returns in the year of the "sign of the Son of Man" asteroid Apophis which comes within 25,000 miles of earth, satellite distance range, on April 13, 2029. Last time an asteroid of this size hit earth was 80,000 years ago. It is 3 foot ball fields in length. Because we recently landed on a comet, I believe it is in the mind of some people to land on Apophis to try to change its trajectory. If someone is evil enough and powerful enough they can make it hit earth because it comes so close. Of course Jesus won't allow that to happen, but it will be all the rave.

Since God is proven and Jesus is proven to be God, of course you are going to Hell, because you are too selfish to come to the cross to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. He gives you that free choice to want to be eternally separated from Him and so you shall be. The Bible says you will have no rest day or night in Hell and where the worm never dies, so if you were hoping through suicide you could cease to exist, ain't going to happen.

I'm sorry your story doesn't stand up to the test of science.

As seekers after truth, you will be wise to withhold judgment and not simply put your trust in the writings of the ancients. You must question and critically examine those writings from every side. You must submit only to argument and experiment and not to the sayings of any person. For every human being is vulnerable to all kinds of imperfection. As seekers after truth, we must also suspect and question our own ideas as we perform our investigations, to avoid falling into prejudice or careless thinking. Take this course, and truth will be revealed to you. This is the method of science.

You put your trust in the writings of the ancients. I read the old and new bibles and the koran and I'm not buying it.

And since a real god would never make the test that either I believe you and your churches nonsense or go to hell, I am sure the entire Christian religion is just like all the ones that came before or after. FAKE!

The Koran says you're going to hell. Do you care? Then I guess you realize how I feel about your threats that if I don't believe YOU that I am going to hell. Do you see how stupid you sound? No different than ala akbar rag heads in the middle east who blow themselves up because they too are sure their god is the one true god.

The Babalonians and Greeks had competing gods too. Each of them argued how and why their god was real but the other was not. But wait! Maybe both were not real?

Men were making up gods long before the Abraham gods. So it is clear to me that god himself is made up. God didn't make us. We made up god! Get it?

sealybobo
Yes, spiritual healing that uses therapy based on forgiveness
DOES test out in scientific and medical studies

It HAS been shown that forgiveness and faith correlates with better health
while unforgiveness and resentments correlates with stress and disease particularly cancer

the reason is that the body naturally fights disease and normally sheds cancer cells

But if we do not forgive, but hold on to resentment,
this causes emotional stress in the mind that affects the body.

This stress and negative emotion BLOCKS the
mind and body from naturally healing themselves as they are normally designed to do

Look at 12 step programs
look at how much work it takes to let go, forgive and REMOVE
the negative addictions and consequences that build up and make someone stay sick and addicted
not just in mind and body, but sicken the relationships, destroy the community support around someone

And the reverse happens when the person agrees
to forgive and let go of the past, and undo all that negative conditions that kept
them stuck in abuse and addiciton

All humans go through this process of GRIEVING
and recovering when we have a setback

We experience anger and denial, depression
and bargaining before we reach resolution and peace

This spiritual process is what is represented in the Bible
Collectively for all humanity as one

So the STAGES in the process of falling out
and having to recover, to refind our true selves
and find New Life after something goes wrong an dfalls apart

the same process that recovery groups teach
is the forgiveness and healing process taught in the Bible

it is natural laws and natural patterns
that All humanity goes th rough

The Bible summarizes this is symbolism
where God Christ and the Holy Spirit
represent collective unity and harmony restored
between body mind and spirit of humanity
where our physical body and the spiritual collective level of truth and justice
are joined as ONE whenour minds or consciences
are made perfect and no longer have this split
between what is happening physically
and what we think and feel is "truth and justice" on a higher level

The "truth and Justice" we believe in for "peace" to be possible
becomes real, becomes embodied in our real lives and
relations so this "incarnates" or manifests in the real world.

So the Bible teaches the process of forgiving
in order to "receive" this higher peace or
"Kingdom of God" into our hearts minds souls
relationship and lives in the physical world
so we can achieve "spiritual or inner peace" on a local scale.
And when all people go through this spiritual
process of reaching maturity, then we experience
global or heavenly peace on a collective scale
uniting all humanity in universal truth, justice and peace
as symbolized by the Holy Trinity. WE are joined as one
and no longer divided by fear or unforgiven conflicts.
All are resolved, just like all people going through recovery
and making peace with ourselves and each other,
with no more unforgiven conflicts dividing or destroying our
lives and relations. But perfect h armony and understanding between us.

The Bible teaches that we are all born into sin by the fall of the first Adam due to his own rebellion, independency and disobedience to God. This sin separates us from God. The only way for God to reconcile and redeem us back to Him is by Jesus entering His creation to pay the penalty in our stead for forgiveness of sins and gives us power over sin since we who are in Christ died with Him on the cross. Since you are unwilling to come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior, you are going to spend eternity in Hell. And that's sad.

Man is made in the image of God first, not Satan.
the fall came AFTER man was made.
And Christ Jesus came after that
to restore and reconcile with God's perfect will.

God is still more powerful than Satan.
God allows Satan and demons to teach the difference
between what goes wrong if we don't forgive and repeat our history
and what Christ Jesus can do to heal and correct wrongs
if we forgive first and allow God's will by our FREE CHOICE.

So if you want to CHOOSE to fear Satan more than God,
you do allow Satan to divide and conquer.

If you CHOOSE to let God in to save as many souls
as can be saved in Christ Jesus, then you put God before Satan
and do not block God and Christ from entering in to complete Salvation.

God's will is IDEALLY that no one should be lost.
So if you CHOOSE to believe that God's will is supreme
then God can save all the souls that can possibly be saved.

If we cannot agree with each other, can we agree to leave it to God
and not try to outguess if God is going to find a way to use
Jesus to save all souls, to make sure all receive and finish the process
to be included in Salvation. I happen to have faith that God can do all things
that are otherwise impossible, so I trust God to save the maximum through Christ.
if Jesus is the Messiah for all humanity, that includes all people, so that is
what I agree and "give permission" to God to fulfill if that is God's will.

If God decides otherwise, it isn't because I blocked it by teaching "it wasn't possible"
and turning people away from Salvation.

When you watch the Cosmos you realize that the universe doesn't care about what is going on here on earth. You, ants, spiders, lions, Muslims, atheists, Hindu, dogs, dinosaurs, cats, mice. One day the sun is going to burn out or a meteor is going to wipe humans and 90% of the animals out or we might might do ourselves in with human caused global climate change.

This god talk is a distraction. It is why most scientists just avoid the subject altogether. Better to focus on the facts. Science got us to Mars. If we are ever going to get off this planet, god aint gonna come tell us how to do it. The scientists are. Do you want the human race to live forever? I do. So instead of making bombs, lets get people living on a space ship and figure out how to get to the next nearest star in 40 years instead of 70,000 years.

We are destroying this planet. Lets figure out how to power things through photosynthesis. It is possible. Don't ask god or a church to figure it out because they won't. They're in bed with the corporations. They think the earth will be fine because god told them when the end would be coming. When he comes back. So don't worry about us bringing on the end of days, because that's nonsense. God has his plan for us..