Zone1 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the only true and living Church today

[surada]

Yes, as were my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, and most of my great-great-grandparents.

Oh dear..

 

[Cougarbear]

Lol. Christians don't worship the cross. Where did you get such an idiotic idea? The Mormons are worse than I knew. Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet, but didn't know about the 2nd century BC Abomination of Desolation?

What crap.

You are throwing out stuff that has nothing to with anything to try and change the subject you are losing in. Typical bible thumper. Yes, Christians worship the cross. Especially Catholics.

 

[surada]

Mathias was not selected by Jesus Christ. And, there is no indication Mathias was there when Jesus was resurrected. In fact, no one was. No one witnessed the resurrection. What they witnessed was Jesus after his resurrection. How many apostles did Jesus appear to? This lists, in chronological order, the first appearance to Peter, then to "the Twelve," then to five hundred at one time, then to James (presumably James the brother of Jesus), then to "all the Apostles," and last to Paul himself. Let's talk about Paul. Here's a guy who obviously did not follow Christ and was not present for any visitation from Jesus Christ until he was on the road to Damascus as recorded in Acts. "Place (9:2–3; 22:6; 26:13) – Event occurred on the road from Jerusalem to Damascus, near Damascus. Appearance (9:3; 22:6; 26:13) – A light from heaven flashed around Paul. Reaction (9:4; 22:7; 26:14) – Paul (and his companions) fell to the ground, apparently in reverence." So, why do you accept Paul's visionary account and Joseph Smith's account you claim could not have happened and he could have never been called a Prophet and Apostle? Their accounts are quite similar. So, this answers most of your attempted post. As far as the succession of Apostles after Joseph Smith, Such as Brigham Young, who are you to say the apostles that have been ordained since Joseph Smith and Brigham young are not special witnesses to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ? Who says they don't have spiritual experiences either by Jesus Christ himself or the witness of the Holy Ghost? Who are you to make these claims?
I testify to you that the Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are special witnesses of the divinity and resurrection of Jesus Christ. My heart is not hardened as yours is and the Holy Ghost bears witness of these truths you cannot obtain until you have a broken heart and a contrite spirit that can be taught.

Because Joseph Smith was ignorant of the Abomination of Desolation in the second century BC.

 

[Papageorgio]

I have a lot of respect for Mormons, I don't agree with them on many issues however they are generally kind and sincere.

 

[onefour1]

Because Joseph Smith was ignorant of the Abomination of Desolation in the second century BC.

PROVE IT!

 

[Clyde 154]

Mathias was not selected by Jesus Christ. And, there is no indication Mathias was there when Jesus was resurrected. In fact, no one was. No one witnessed the resurrection. What they witnessed was Jesus after his resurrection. How many apostles did Jesus appear to? This lists, in chronological order, the first appearance to Peter, then to "the Twelve," then to five hundred at one time, then to James (presumably James the brother of Jesus), then to "all the Apostles," and last to Paul himself. Let's talk about Paul. Here's a guy who obviously did not follow Christ and was not present for any visitation from Jesus Christ until he was on the road to Damascus as recorded in Acts. "Place (9:2–3; 22:6; 26:13) – Event occurred on the road from Jerusalem to Damascus, near Damascus. Appearance (9:3; 22:6; 26:13) – A light from heaven flashed around Paul. Reaction (9:4; 22:7; 26:14) – Paul (and his companions) fell to the ground, apparently in reverence." So, why do you accept Paul's visionary account and Joseph Smith's account you claim could not have happened and he could have never been called a Prophet and Apostle? Their accounts are quite similar. So, this answers most of your attempted post. As far as the succession of Apostles after Joseph Smith, Such as Brigham Young, who are you to say the apostles that have been ordained since Joseph Smith and Brigham young are not special witnesses to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ? Who says they don't have spiritual experiences either by Jesus Christ himself or the witness of the Holy Ghost? Who are you to make these claims?
I testify to you that the Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are special witnesses of the divinity and resurrection of Jesus Christ. My heart is not hardened as yours is and the Holy Ghost bears witness of these truths you cannot obtain until you have a broken heart and a contrite spirit that can be taught.

More deflections? Judas' replacement was due to a vote from the other 11 Holy Spirit Inspired Apostles of Christ that were receiving directions expressly from Jesus through the Holy Spirit......as promised by Jesus Himself to the Apostles. In essence......the appointemnet was by "divine" decree........just as I have presented in a verbatim manner previously. Demontrating that you don't even read before you retort. But still...........you claim divine guidence appointment? Yet.....you don't meet the 1st requirement. Having seen Jesus and been part of His ministery since John (the Baptist).

Why deflect? You can't deny the actual evidence presented that proves that your cult is anything but inspired by the God of Creation. You parroted from a dead language translation of the 1611 KJV Bible. Your cult has a history of violence in retribution.....as your Apostles has sent hit men to kill those who supposed transgressed your confidence, your cult has a history of Adultery and Fornication (more than one spouse)......thus you deflect.

But.....to address your attempted deflection concerning your charge that Jesus had nothing to do with the appointment of Judas' replacement. The apostles prayed for divine guidance before casting their lots for the replacement..........casting lots simply means......a vote among themselves. (Acts) Jesus made a promise to lead them into all truth.....even after His death.

Scriptural Evidence that Jesus was in communication with the Apostles He hand picked........after His death? Read be enlightened, Jesus promised that after His death He would be in commuincations with them. Just before Jesus was betrayed He was speaking with those He had choosen and declared,there are many things that He had not been able to instruct them while He was living...... He made them this promise, "....when He the Spirit of Truth has come (and it did on the day of Pentecost after the ascension of Jesus)........He will guide you into all truth." In this passage (John 16) Jesus is expressly addressing the apostles He had choosen. Jesus expressly said, "I will sent Him (the Holy Spirit) unto you (the apostles) ......... -- John 16:5-8.

Jesus promised the Spirit (Holy Ghost) would speak to the Apostles as directed by Himself. (John 14)

Thus the Aposltes who voted to replace Judas........did so through the will of Jesus as communiated through the Holy Spirit of God.

Question? Were any of your apostles around when Jesus personally promised them divine guidance through the Holy Spirit? I see no evidence in Word of God of any English Speaking Prophets being promised anything. Read the passages in context.......Jesus was talking to His Apostles........not the world, not to any future generation. Jesus was preparing His hand picked Apostles to establish the infant church in His Doctrine, after His death and ascension. The church has been established for well over 2000 years, I, nor any other human have any need or requirement for any guidence from your so called MODERN DAY SAINTS as everything required for ................life and godliness, has been delivered through the knowledge of the truth presented by our Lord, Christ Jesus.....and its existed since the 1st century. (2 Peter 1:3)

 

[Cougarbear]

More deflections? Judas' replacement was due to a vote from the other 11 Holy Spirit Inspired Apostles of Christ that were receiving directions expressly from Jesus through the Holy Spirit......as promised by Jesus Himself to the Apostles. In essence......the appointemnet was by "divine" decree........just as I have presented in a verbatim manner previously. Demontrating that you don't even read before you retort. But still...........you claim divine guidence appointment? Yet.....you don't meet the 1st requirement. Having seen Jesus and been part of His ministery since John (the Baptist).

Why deflect? You can't deny the actual evidence presented that proves that your cult is anything but inspired by the God of Creation. You parroted from a dead language translation of the 1611 KJV Bible. Your cult has a history of violence in retribution.....as your Apostles has sent hit men to kill those who supposed transgressed your confidence, your cult has a history of Adultery and Fornication (more than one spouse)......thus you deflect.

But.....to address your attempted deflection concerning your charge that Jesus had nothing to do with the appointment of Judas' replacement. The apostles prayed for divine guidance before casting their lots for the replacement..........casting lots simply means......a vote among themselves. (Acts) Jesus made a promise to lead them into all truth.....even after His death.

Scriptural Evidence that Jesus was in communication with the Apostles He hand picked........after His death? Read be enlightened, Jesus promised that after His death He would be in commuincations with them. Just before Jesus was betrayed He was speaking with those He had choosen and declared,there are many things that He had not been able to instruct them while He was living...... He made them this promise, "....when He the Spirit of Truth has come (and it did on the day of Pentecost after the ascension of Jesus)........He will guide you into all truth." In this passage (John 16) Jesus is expressly addressing the apostles He had choosen. Jesus expressly said, "I will sent Him (the Holy Spirit) unto you (the apostles) ......... -- John 16:5-8.

Jesus promised the Spirit (Holy Ghost) would speak to the Apostles as directed by Himself. (John 14)

Thus the Aposltes who voted to replace Judas........did so through the will of Jesus as communiated through the Holy Spirit of God.

Question? Were any of your apostles around when Jesus personally promised them divine guidance through the Holy Spirit? I see no evidence in Word of God of any English Speaking Prophets being promised anything. Read the passages in context.......Jesus was talking to His Apostles........not the world, not to any future generation. Jesus was preparing His hand picked Apostles to establish the infant church in His Doctrine, after His death and ascension. The church has been established for well over 2000 years, I, nor any other human have any need or requirement for any guidence from your so called MODERN DAY SAINTS as everything required for ................life and godliness, has been delivered through the knowledge of the truth presented by our Lord, Christ Jesus.....and its existed since the 1st century. (2 Peter 1:3)

"More deflections? Judas' replacement was due to a vote from the other 11 Holy Spirit Inspired Apostles of Christ that were receiving directions expressly from Jesus through the Holy Spirit......as promised by Jesus Himself to the Apostles. In essence......the appointemnet was by "divine" decree........just as I have presented in a verbatim manner previously. Demontrating that you don't even read before you retort. But still...........you claim divine guidence appointment? Yet.....you don't meet the 1st requirement. Having seen Jesus and been part of His ministery since John (the Baptist)."

Have you ever heard of the old Chinese Proverb, "More words count less?"
Well, Joseph Smith received direction from Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit (Ghost). In fact, he saw the Father and Son. The Father said here is my son, listen to him. And, he did. Thus, Joseph Smith saw the resurrected Jesus Christ and followed His directions. And, as directed by Jesus Christ, through Holy Ghost, he received the Holy Priesthoods that were lost by the Roman Catholic Church and never given to the Protestant churches. And, eventually, through direction by Jesus Christ, through the power of the Holy Ghost, were called as apostles and prophets of the Lord Jesus Christ. And, each apostle afterward was called, sustained and set apart as prophets, seers and revelators with the special calling of testifying of the Lord Jesus Christ and his full atonement which includes the resurrection. Just as Paul was. So, no deflection but yours was and it just helped my cause. Thank you.

 

[Clyde 154]

"More deflections? Judas' replacement was due to a vote from the other 11 Holy Spirit Inspired Apostles of Christ that were receiving directions expressly from Jesus through the Holy Spirit......as promised by Jesus Himself to the Apostles. In essence......the appointemnet was by "divine" decree........just as I have presented in a verbatim manner previously. Demontrating that you don't even read before you retort. But still...........you claim divine guidence appointment? Yet.....you don't meet the 1st requirement. Having seen Jesus and been part of His ministery since John (the Baptist)."

Have you ever heard of the old Chinese Proverb, "More words count less?"
Well, Joseph Smith received direction from Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit (Ghost). In fact, he saw the Father and Son. The Father said here is my son, listen to him. And, he did. Thus, Joseph Smith saw the resurrected Jesus Christ and followed His directions. And, as directed by Jesus Christ, through Holy Ghost, he received the Holy Priesthoods that were lost by the Roman Catholic Church and never given to the Protestant churches. And, eventually, through direction by Jesus Christ, through the power of the Holy Ghost, were called as apostles and prophets of the Lord Jesus Christ. And, each apostle afterward was called, sustained and set apart as prophets, seers and revelators with the special calling of testifying of the Lord Jesus Christ and his full atonement which includes the resurrection. Just as Paul was. So, no deflection but yours was and it just helped my cause. Thank you.

Clearly you are a gift........of self contradition You charge others of using many words, and proceed to "USE MANY WORDS"whle not presenting any Christian evidence whatsoever. You prove nothing with the word of God, the source of all Christian Doctrine (Romans 10:9)....by book, chapter and verse. You make claims that have previously been dismissed by the "actual" content of the Holy Scriptures with personal ad homiem OPINIONS? Priceless.

Where is the Objective....reproducible evidence required to produce facts in evidence? Where is the documentation of all the miracles you claim your cult has witnessed since its inception in 1830.........1800 years after "the faith has been delivered ONCE FOR ALL by the saint." -- Jude 3 Document these miracles of the dead being raised, the blind receiving their sight....the lame walking, just as the Apostles of Christ did among "many witnessess". Proceed. What? Don't have the faith required?

You "claim" to have divine authority but provide none of he signs and wonders that accompany a true Apostle of Christ......what? You never addressed any of the historical facts that prove that your cult is a fraud. Such as parroting supposed divine inspiration from a 1611 copy of an Old English translation.......verbatim.........the historical evidence of adultery and fornication, as well as creating your own Government and enforcing church law at the point of a sword ...i.e., also known as "vigilante" justice when the Word of God declares expressly that you are to obey the appointed government authorties (Romans 13:1-4).....because "vengeance" belongs to God (Romans 12:19).

You can't hide from the actual facts in evidence of your cults history actual with a few "verbal platitudes". I proved that 25000 words from the Book of Mormon was parroted directly from the King James of 1611.........that included the same errors of transmission/copy. Yeah..........Inspired, by Joseph Smith and his "imagination".

 

[Cougarbear]

Clearly you are a gift........of self contradition You charge others of using many words, and proceed to "USE MANY WORDS"whle not presenting any Christian evidence whatsoever. You prove nothing with the word of God, the source of all Christian Doctrine (Romans 10:9)....by book, chapter and verse. You make claims that have previously been dismissed by the "actual" content of the Holy Scriptures with personal ad homiem OPINIONS? Priceless.

Where is the Objective....reproducible evidence required to produce facts in evidence? Where is the documentation of all the miracles you claim your cult has witnessed since its inception in 1830.........1800 years after "the faith has been delivered ONCE FOR ALL by the saint." -- Jude 3 Document these miracles of the dead being raised, the blind receiving their sight....the lame walking, just as the Apostles of Christ did among "many witnessess". Proceed. What? Don't have the faith required?

You "claim" to have divine authority but provide none of he signs and wonders that accompany a true Apostle of Christ......what? You never addressed any of the historical facts that prove that your cult is a fraud. Such as parroting supposed divine inspiration from a 1611 copy of an Old English translation.......verbatim.........the historical evidence of adultery and fornication, as well as creating your own Government and enforcing church law at the point of a sword ...i.e., also known as "vigilante" justice when the Word of God declares expressly that you are to obey the appointed government authorties (Romans 13:1-4).....because "vengeance" belongs to God (Romans 12:19).

You can't hide from the actual facts in evidence of your cults history actual with a few "verbal platitudes". I proved that 25000 words from the Book of Mormon was parroted directly from the King James of 1611.........that included the same errors of transmission/copy. Yeah..........Inspired, by Joseph Smith and his "imagination".

I simply used your words against you. You claim it's okay for Paul to have received divine intervention to be able to witness the resurrected Christ while rejecting the very same even with Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith saw the spoke with the resurrected Christ. He was told that the heavens would again speak and teach more knowledge to Israel through him and other prophets and apostles that would be called in these latter days, the time of restitution of all things. These things were prophesied in the OT as well as in the NT. Isaiah was clear that a book would be revealed in the last days that would cause the wise men (scholars and ministers) understanding to perish and their understanding would be hid or be known as false doctrine. Isaiah 29:10-14. You draw near to God but have removed your heats far from God and accept the teachings by the precepts of men mingled with scripture. Ezekiel speaks of this same book as the stick or book of Joseph through Ephraim that would become one in thine hand in the last days. So, why do you reject anything that comes forth in these days? Heck, you reject the fact that Paul and Smith had the same basic vision occurrence.

 

[surada]

PROVE IT!

Read the thread.

 

[surada]

You are throwing out stuff that has nothing to with anything to try and change the subject you are losing in. Typical bible thumper. Yes, Christians worship the cross. Especially Catholics.

The cross is a symbol of Christianity not an object of worship.

 

[Cougarbear]

Read the thread.

I think he’s right. Prove it. But, it really doesn’t matter. Even Ezekiel knew about Daniel. So, is Ezekiel fake too? This is what happens with scholars is they get trapped in their own fallacy world and eventually lose faith and belief in God. They are the Sanhedrin of our time.

 

[surada]

I think he’s right. Prove it. But, it really doesn’t matter. Even Ezekiel knew about Daniel. So, is Ezekiel fake too? This is what happens with scholars is they get trapped in their own fallacy world and eventually lose faith and belief in God. They are the Sanhedrin of our time.

Danl is an ancient Syrian poem. That's what Ezekiel is referring to.

Who is Ezekiel's Daniel? | Bible.org

In Daniel 1:6 we are introduced to the author of this book: דניאל. An increasing number of scholars have argued that the book of Daniel is pseudepigraphical, written during the Maccabean era (c.

bible.org

 

[onefour1]

Danl is an ancient Syrian poem. That's what Ezekiel is referring to.

Who is Ezekiel's Daniel? | Bible.org

In Daniel 1:6 we are introduced to the author of this book: דניאל. An increasing number of scholars have argued that the book of Daniel is pseudepigraphical, written during the Maccabean era (c.

bible.org

Jesus Christ recognized Daniel as a Prophet and that is good enough for me. You can believe all the fantasies that you want but I will go with Jesus.

 

[surada]

Jesus Christ recognized Daniel as a Prophet and that is good enough for me. You can believe all the fantasies that you want but I will go with Jesus.

You're mistaken. Read what Jesus said. Jesus said when the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel is seen (again) flee to the mountains. They did. They went to Pella and avoided the whole tribulation.

 

[onefour1]

You're mistaken. Read what Jesus said. Jesus said when the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel is seen (again) flee to the mountains. They did. They went to Pella and avoided the whole tribulation.

Matthew 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).

Mark 13:14
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judæa flee to the mountains:

Looks like future tense to me. Still looking for that elusive word, "again". Hmm can you point that out to me, I can't seem to find in the above verse.

 

[onefour1]

Read the thread.

I have read this thread and found no proof that Joseph did not know about Antiochus Epiphanes. Can you show me the exact post where this proof exists?

 

[surada]

I have read this thread and found no proof that Joseph did not know about Antiochus Epiphanes. Can you show me the exact post where this proof exists?

Cougar is the key.

 

[Cougarbear]

Danl is an ancient Syrian poem. That's what Ezekiel is referring to.

Who is Ezekiel's Daniel? | Bible.org

In Daniel 1:6 we are introduced to the author of this book: דניאל. An increasing number of scholars have argued that the book of Daniel is pseudepigraphical, written during the Maccabean era (c.

bible.org

Nope. Nice try…

 

[Clyde 154]

I simply used your words against you. You claim it's okay for Paul to have received divine intervention to be able to witness the resurrected Christ while rejecting the very same even with Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith saw the spoke with the resurrected Christ. He was told that the heavens would again speak and teach more knowledge to Israel through him and other prophets and apostles that would be called in these latter days, the time of restitution of all things. These things were prophesied in the OT as well as in the NT. Isaiah was clear that a book would be revealed in the last days that would cause the wise men (scholars and ministers) understanding to perish and their understanding would be hid or be known as false doctrine. Isaiah 29:10-14. You draw near to God but have removed your heats far from God and accept the teachings by the precepts of men mingled with scripture. Ezekiel speaks of this same book as the stick or book of Joseph through Ephraim that would become one in thine hand in the last days. So, why do you reject anything that comes forth in these days? Heck, you reject the fact that Paul and Smith had the same basic vision occurrence.

Again with the deflection? Paul meet the qualifications to be an Apostle of Christ.............He was witness to both the ministry of Jesus, (while he was persecuting the infant religion, in fact Saul/Paul was present when Stephen was put to death (Acts 7:54-60). Christians were not known as Christians but followers of Jesus during the time Paul/Saul was witnessing that ministry......they were called Christians first at Antioch (Acts 11:26), after the gentile conversations of Chapter 10. Paul approved the death of Stephen-- Acts 8:1 as well as being divinely choosen by Jesus whose presence was so great when He personally chose Saul to be an Apostle to the Gentile nations.......that it blinded Saul, who had to be divinely healed to remove the scales from his eyes. Paul was then a witness as to the resurrection of Jesus. How many modern day Apostles were blinded by the glory of Jesus Christ and healed by the Spirit? Document these divine appointments.........of those appointed "divinely".........just how many claim to be Apostle in your cults structure organization? And how many of these modern apostles were appointed by divine endorsement.......instead of an endorsement from the President of your cult?

If you actually read and study the scripture you can comprehend that the number of Apostles was to remain at twelve with consistency. After Judas........there was a divine appointment based upon the prayers made to the Holy Spirit to guide the selection of another (Acts).......the number went back to 12, then of course the scriptures declare that James was killed (leaving another vacancy). -- Acts 12:1-2 Why must the number remain at "12"..........Jesus personally picked 12 desciples to be His Apostles (messengers) -- Luke 6:12-16.

Paul stated clearly that a time would come when 12 Apostles and their signs and wonders would cease to be required (1 Cor. 13)........today all that remains as gifts of the spirit are, Faith, Hope and Love/Charity.......of these Charity is the greatest.

Jesus personally selected Saul to become the Apostle Paul before the death of James, (Acts 9:10-16, Acts 22:12, 16,21)but Paul did not accept/join the others of the apostleship until after the death of James. (Gal. 1:15-19) ....Paul went away for 3 years.

The difference between the 12 Apostles of Chirst in the 1st century and your modern day aposltes? "I (Paul) have been a fool! You forced me to it, for I ought to have been commended by you. For I was not inferior to at all to these apostles, even though I am nothing; THE SIGNS OF A TRUE APOSLTE WERE PERFORMED AMONG YOU...with great patience." (2 Cor.12:11-12)

An apostle possessed the signs of a true apostle..........with the ability to preform miraculous acts in order to confirm the word of God. There are no such signs today. Again where is the evidence of any miraculous acts being performed by Joseph Smith or any so called Apostle from 1830 to date...........document these miraculous "signs and wonders". Do you actually expect anyone to accept a "claim" without any supporting evidence that the Book of Mormon was inspired of God? Why not the Koran.........the not the "new world translation" from the JWs........or the extra books used by the RCC?

The Bible is the only record that has not been refuted by man.....via an application of real science or by history actual......the others to Include the Book of Mormon are laced with untruths when compared to the Holy Bible.