Zone1 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the only true and living Church today

[surada]

Archaeology is artifacts from history, yes?

Are there any, say, chariots found in history in the Americas, as one example?

Hello?

They had the wheel, but it was used for grinding not transportation.

 

[surada]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a “living church” is that the living God reveals His will to living prophets and apostles. All other churches are dead and mourn constantly and this is the reason for the cross on all other Christian Churches. They worship the dead Christ while TCOJCOLDS worships the living Christ and has a spire pointing to the resurrecting living Christ. Sweet Sue, you belong to a dead church with no authority.
You use terms not used by any of the books or church scholars. The "rocks" you speak of are the very same stones in the Urim and thummim with the stones first appear in Exodus 28:30, where they are named for inclusion on the breastplate to be worn by Aaron in the holy place. In 1Samuel 28:6 it says, "And when Saul inquire of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim nor by prophets." So, we see that the Urim part of the Urim and the Thummin is used for prophecy, seer (ing) and revelation such as for the writing of the Book of Mormon. The stones (Urim) are on the breastplate. It makes sense to take them off the breastplate and put them in something to use in front of his eyes, not his breasts. So, it makes perfect sense to use the hat. Good grief, you have no understanding of what a prophet is and how they receive revelation, prophecy, and seer (ings) So, how do you know he did not translate the plates using these stones in a hat? Were you there? And, who said the plates were magic? They were plates that the prophets wrote on so they would last thought the ages. There are no factual errors in the Book of Mormon. And, if you knew anything about the coming forth of the Book of Abraham, you would know that there were several other writings that were in Joseph Smith's possession that were not the ones people think he wrote it from. It's anti-Mormons who push this lie.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that we are all brothers and sisters, children of our heavenly Father. There was a war in Heaven written in Revelation. Lucifer was one of Father's children and so was Jehovah. So, of course, they are spirit brothers. So what? Jehovah was supportive of Father in Heaven while Lucifer (Satan) was rebellious. Just like Cain and Abel were to Adam, their father. Why would Jesus (Jehovah) being a brother to Lucifer (Satan) have any bearing to whether Joseph Smith is a Prophet? We teach that Jesus is the Son of God and that Satan is a fallen angel (spirit) and torments us attempting to deceive us from following Jesus Christ. Heck, your church probably doesn't even have Jesus Christ's name in it when Paul wrote to the Colosians to do all things in Jesus name. You can't even include him in the naming of your Church. So, what makes me think your hatred has any validity. And, it is hatred which is only pushed by Satan.
What is wrong with families can be forever in the afterlife? Is that evil? Jesus said, whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven. So, why not marriages (sealings)? You may use the old argument that marriage is not given in heaven. But, that is easily answered by the fact marriage ceremonies will not be conducted in heaven and therefore they must be conducted on earth. But, the marriage can still be bound (sealed) in the afterlife. It's sad that you would be happy about losing your spouse and children.
Once again, you say fiction. Well, you weren't there nor included in the revelations to Joseph Smith. So, how do you know? Prove it. You can't. Jesus said that it is possible to inherit all that our Father has. That he has many mansions for us to live in. I ask you, what are those mansions? Can you tell me? No. You have an incomplete gospel that doesn't have that knowledge in it. Well, we do. We have the fulness of the gospel to date. Actually, there is information about the mansions in the Bible. 1Corinthians chapter 15 says there are three mansions or levels of heaven of glory, Celestial, Terrestrial and the glory of the starts (we call Telestial). In our resurrection, we will be assigned to one of those glories of heaven. Celestial is the greatest where we will have all that our Father has through inheritance.
So, it is you who is full of hot air. I'm fortunate enough to have been open minded and had an open heart or a broken heart and a contrite spirit to have with real intent, faith not wavering and without a double mind listened, read, studied and PRAYED about whether Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, The Book of Mormon is true and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restored Church of Jesus Christ, by Jesus Christ through the Prophet Joseph Smith. I can testify that the Holy Ghost told be these things are true. So, I will not deny the Holy Ghost because of your hateful disposition and rants.

Christians don't believe Jesus is dead. Where did you come up with that nonsense?

 

[surada]

I am a Biblical Christian. Nothing that Joseph Smith did, said or believed was necessary to the Church.

He was a con man and he sadly started a cult.

So did John Nelson Darby... Both in 1830.

 

[onefour1]

No. Clarified in John 4:1-2 overtly

4 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2(although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),

Yes John 4:2 does say that Jesus did not baptize but let his apostles do the work. So I will give you credit on this since I am arguing from a King James Bible standpoint. However, the credit for the baptisms did go to Christ and he could have had the women baptized by his disciples or he could have done it himself should he have decided to.

From an LDS standpoint, Joseph Smith came out with an inspired translation of the Bible which the church believes that as a prophet he was able to more correctly translate certain passages of the Bible. Below are the passages from John 4:

JST, John 4:1–4. Compare John 4:1–2​

The Pharisees desire to kill Jesus. He performs some baptisms, but His disciples perform more.

1 When therefore the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

2 They sought more diligently some means that they might put him to death; for many received John as a prophet, but they believed not on Jesus.

3 Now the Lord knew this, though he himself baptized not so many as his disciples;

4 For he suffered them for an example, preferring one another.

 

[onefour1]

Here's what you're doing though. Here's a comparison for you. It's like you're citing a wedding that took place in gardens and saying "look here, it says there are weddings in gardens. So this is how you have weddings and it's the ONLY way you have weddings."

I am saying YES. There are weddings in gardens.

But there are also weddings in churches, chapels, courthouses, cathedrals, and backyards. I'm not REFUTING weddings in gardens but I'm saying not ALL weddings have to be in gardens.

You keep screeching "GARDEN WEDDING" not realizing I'm conceding the point. Yes, sometimes the Spirit came by laying of hands. And sometimes--many times--He did not.

But you are unable to concede this because there goes your entire cult. I realize this. You cannot.

When it comes to the workings of the Holy Ghost, He can do anything to help bring about righteousness in the world and I do not restrict the Holy Ghost in his workings among the children of men. However, when it comes to ordinances of the gospel such as baptism, I do not believe that God accepts any baptism performed by any man on this earth. He has established a priesthood among his followers in His church and has given those who receive this priesthood authority to baptize. God has an order in his church and does not allow or accept anyone to take this authority upon themselves.

Hebrews 5:1-6
1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

As the above verses indicate, those who hold the priesthood are ordained and are called of God. Only by receiving the priesthood from one who is in authority to ordain another to the priesthood is the priesthood acquired. Authority in the priesthood is given to perform certain rights and ordinances. One of those ordinances is to be able to baptize. God does not recognize baptisms that are performed outside of his established priesthood. Another ordinance that is performed by the priesthood of God is the conferring of the gift of the Holy Ghost. This ordinance is performed by the laying on of hands of those who hold the Melchizedek Priesthood. The ordinance is to be perform only upon those who repent and are baptized. The Holy Ghost can come upon anyone whom God decides should receive it. However, the gift of the Holy Ghost is an ordinance of the gospel and is only given to those who repent and are baptized.

 

[Clyde 154]

The Lord has only one true and living church. One reason The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a “living church” is that the living God reveals His will to living prophets and apostles. All other churches are dead and mourn constantly and this is the reason for the cross on all other Christian Churches. The worship the dead Christ while TCOJCOLDS worships the living Christ and has a spire pointing to the resurrecting living Christ.
"Three features—(1) fulness of doctrine, (2) power of the priesthood, and (3) testimony of Jesus Christ—explain why God has declared and why we as His servants maintain that this is the only true and living Church upon the face of the whole earth." - Dallin H. Oaks. Here is the entire massage from Elder Oaks, a current day Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ: The Only True and Living Church

Do not be threatened? Be humble: "Because of this declaration of the Lord, we refer to this, His Church—our Church—as the “only true Church.” Sometimes we do this in a way that gives great offense to people who belong to other churches or who subscribe to other philosophies. But God has not taught us anything that should cause us to feel superior to other people. Certainly all churches and philosophies have elements of truth in them, some more than others. Certainly God loves all of His children. And certainly His gospel plan is for all of His children, all according to His own timetable."

Current day Apostle?

The N.T. of Christ Jesus defines the "qualfications" of being an Apostle of Christ. 1. An Apostle of Christ was required to have personally seen the Lord and been an "eyewitness" of Christ's resurrection (Acts 1:22, Acts 22:14, 1 Cor. 9:1)

2. An Apostle of Christ had to have been specifically selected by the Lord or Holy Spirit (Example: Holy Spirit selected a successor to Judas after his suicide....it was by "divine decree" when the other Apostles of Christ selected Judas' successor (Regardless if one claims to have been placed by Divine Decree today.........the said apostle would have the requirement of being an eyewitess to Jesus ministry and His resurrection, just as Judas' replacement qualified.....there are none today that qualifies unless you claim to be over 2000 years old). As documented in the N.T. scriptures an Apostle has to meet both these pre-qualifiers. (Matt. 10:5, Mark 3:13-14, Luke 6:13, Acts 1:26, Acts 9:15, Acts 22:14-15, 21, Acts 26:13). What? Was Joseph Smith alive in order to have been a direct eyewitness of Jesus' minstry or resurrection? What about your modern day claim of Apostleship? It sounds much like a Con Job to me.......looking for those who are ignorant of the actual content of the Word of God in order to hold power and authority over them.....such as Taking more than 1 wife from the choice female memberships....etc. (you can't hide from history actual with platitudes). Deny this history.

3. All those appointed as Apostles of Christ were made by selection from Jesus Himself and were vested with miraculous powers to the extinct they could preform miracles in order to "confirm the word of God" being preached was from God.......just as promised to them by Jesus Himself, they were endowed with power when the Holy Spirit fell upon the Apostles on the day of pentecost after the ascension of Jesus. There are none alive today that possesses such power and authority (if they exist.......were is the evidence?) The Apostles of Christ had the power and authority to pass on certain miraculous gifts by the laying on of their hands (again there are none alive today that can lay on hands in order give to another the power and authority to perform miracles in conformation of the word of God). After the last Apostle of Christ physically died.....this gift of the spirit also died. (Just as explained by Paul in 1 Cor. 13......after these supernatural gifts FAIL, the only true gifts of the Spirit that will remain are, Faith, Hope and Charity/Love).

Where is your faith today maintained in the fact that the original Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.....declared the authority to take more than 1 wife? Its not faithful at all when you bend a knee to a supposed truth from a inspired Apostle of Christ in stating that its acceptable to have more than 1 wife.....as opposed to denying this truth and conforming to the standards established by soceity at large simply to be accepted as citizens of the Untied States of America...............seems more than hypocritical and deceitful, it sounds like this was never authorized by the Spirit of God in the first place.

There are none alive today that meets the qualifications or the authority from the Holy Spirit to confirm any new revelations from God......as the faith was delivered ONCE FOR ALL by the saints of the 1st century (Jude 3) There can't possibly be any such animal as a Modern Day Apostle of Christ. Its documented in Scripture, evidence of the above statements (Mark 3:15, Mark 16:17-20, Luke 9:1-2, John 14:12, John 15:24-27, John 16:13, Acts 2:43, Acts 4:29-31, Acts 5:12, Acts 15:16, Acts 6:6, Acts 8:14-18, Acts 19:6, 1 Tim. 6, Romans 1:11, Heb. 2:3-4).

 

[SweetSue92]

Yes John 4:2 does say that Jesus did not baptize but let his apostles do the work. So I will give you credit on this since I am arguing from a King James Bible standpoint. However, the credit for the baptisms did go to Christ and he could have had the women baptized by his disciples or he could have done it himself should he have decided to.

From an LDS standpoint, Joseph Smith came out with an inspired translation of the Bible which the church believes that as a prophet he was able to more correctly translate certain passages of the Bible. Below are the passages from John 4:

JST, John 4:1–4. Compare John 4:1–2​

The Pharisees desire to kill Jesus. He performs some baptisms, but His disciples perform more.

1 When therefore the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

2 They sought more diligently some means that they might put him to death; for many received John as a prophet, but they believed not on Jesus.

3 Now the Lord knew this, though he himself baptized not so many as his disciples;

4 For he suffered them for an example, preferring one another.

If I want to start a cult, I can say that I have a newer interpretation/version of the Bible and have it say anything too. I can have it say you're to give me all your money or whatever. Saying it is a new interpretation does not make it so.

 

[SweetSue92]

When it comes to the workings of the Holy Ghost, He can do anything to help bring about righteousness in the world and I do not restrict the Holy Ghost in his workings among the children of men. However, when it comes to ordinances of the gospel such as baptism, I do not believe that God accepts any baptism performed by any man on this earth. He has established a priesthood among his followers in His church and has given those who receive this priesthood authority to baptize. God has an order in his church and does not allow or accept anyone to take this authority upon themselves.

Hebrews 5:1-6
1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

As the above verses indicate, those who hold the priesthood are ordained and are called of God. Only by receiving the priesthood from one who is in authority to ordain another to the priesthood is the priesthood acquired. Authority in the priesthood is given to perform certain rights and ordinances. One of those ordinances is to be able to baptize. God does not recognize baptisms that are performed outside of his established priesthood. Another ordinance that is performed by the priesthood of God is the conferring of the gift of the Holy Ghost. This ordinance is performed by the laying on of hands of those who hold the Melchizedek Priesthood. The ordinance is to be perform only upon those who repent and are baptized. The Holy Ghost can come upon anyone whom God decides should receive it. However, the gift of the Holy Ghost is an ordinance of the gospel and is only given to those who repent and are baptized.

Out of context.

Read in context, with Hebrews 4 and later in 5, Jesus is the Great High Priest. We don't need other priests. That's it. The end.

 

[onefour1]

Spoken of by Daniel.. the Abomination of Desolation had happened before. Daniel spoke of it.

Daniel 8 speaks of the transgression of desolation in verses 11-13. This transgression of desolation occurs during the time of the power of the little horn which was to come after the power of the Ram and the He Goat. The Ram was a representation of the Persian/Median Empire and the Goat was a representation of the Greco/Macedonian Empire.

Daniel 8:20-25
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

So from the above we can know that the transgression of desolation spoken of in this chapter occurs only after the Greco/Macedonian Empire. We also know that toward the end of the era of the four kings of the Greco/Macedonian era a king of fierce countenance and understanding dark sentences was to come in. It is in his time that the transgression of desolation was to occur. During his time he was to destroy the mighty and the holy people whom I believe are the Jews of Jerusalem.

Granted, some have thought this to be Antiochus Epiphanes but he did not destroy the Jews in Jerusalem although he did do them great harm. My belief is that the new king that came in was the Roman Empire that literally destroyed the nation of the Jews in 70 AD. The Roman Empire better fits the other things in Daniel mention about the little horn.

Here are two articles, one is in favor of the Antiochus Epiphanes belief that he was the little horn and the other favors the belief that the Roman Empire was the little horn.

Antiochus Epiphanes—The Bible’s Most Notoriously Forgotten Villain​

What is the little horn in the book of Daniel?​

Since Jesus spoke of Daniel the Prophet's Abomination of Desolation being in the future and not in the past, the Roman Empire has my belief that it is the little horn.

 

[surada]

Daniel 8 speaks of the transgression of desolation in verses 11-13. This transgression of desolation occurs during the time of the power of the little horn which was to come after the power of the Ram and the He Goat. The Ram was a representation of the Persian/Median Empire and the Goat was a representation of the Greco/Macedonian Empire.

Daniel 8:20-25
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

So from the above we can know that the transgression of desolation spoken of in this chapter occurs only after the Greco/Macedonian Empire. We also know that toward the end of the era of the four kings of the Greco/Macedonian era a king of fierce countenance and understanding dark sentences was to come in. It is in his time that the transgression of desolation was to occur. During his time he was to destroy the mighty and the holy people whom I believe are the Jews of Jerusalem.

Granted, some have thought this to be Antiochus Epiphanes but he did not destroy the Jews in Jerusalem although he did do them great harm. My belief is that the new king that came in was the Roman Empire that literally destroyed the nation of the Jews in 70 AD. The Roman Empire better fits the other things in Daniel mention about the little horn.

Here are two articles, one is in favor of the Antiochus Epiphanes belief that he was the little horn and the other favors the belief that the Roman Empire was the little horn.

Antiochus Epiphanes—The Bible’s Most Notoriously Forgotten Villain​

What is the little horn in the book of Daniel?​

Since Jesus spoke of Daniel the Prophet's Abomination of Desolation being in the future and not in the past, the Roman Empire has my belief that it is the little horn.

Antiochus IV Epiphanies defiled the temple and made it an abomination of desolation.

Why is that hard for you? Who said Antiochus destroyed the Jews in Jerusalem? He caused the Maccabean revolt.

 

[onefour1]

If I want to start a cult, I can say that I have a newer interpretation/version of the Bible and have it say anything too. I can have it say you're to give me all your money or whatever. Saying it is a new interpretation does not make it so.

There is also the possibility that Joseph Smith was called and chosen by God to be a prophet of these latter days.

 

[surada]

There is also the possibility that Joseph Smith was called and chosen by God to be a prophet of these latter days.

Nah. Joseph Smith got too many basics wrong. God wouldn't make such mistakes.

 

[BackAgain]

The Lord has only one true and living church. One reason The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a “living church” is that the living God reveals His will to living prophets and apostles. All other churches are dead and mourn constantly and this is the reason for the cross on all other Christian Churches. The worship the dead Christ while TCOJCOLDS worships the living Christ and has a spire pointing to the resurrecting living Christ.
"Three features—(1) fulness of doctrine, (2) power of the priesthood, and (3) testimony of Jesus Christ—explain why God has declared and why we as His servants maintain that this is the only true and living Church upon the face of the whole earth." - Dallin H. Oaks. Here is the entire massage from Elder Oaks, a current day Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ: The Only True and Living Church

Do not be threatened? Be humble: "Because of this declaration of the Lord, we refer to this, His Church—our Church—as the “only true Church.” Sometimes we do this in a way that gives great offense to people who belong to other churches or who subscribe to other philosophies. But God has not taught us anything that should cause us to feel superior to other people. Certainly all churches and philosophies have elements of truth in them, some more than others. Certainly God loves all of His children. And certainly His gospel plan is for all of His children, all according to His own timetable."

False.

 

[onefour1]

Antiochus IV Epiphanies defiled the temple and made it an abomination of desolation.

Why is that hard for you? Who said Antiochus destroyed the Jews in Jerusalem? He caused the Maccabean revolt.

The Romans also destroyed the temple and left not one stone upon another.
I didn't say Antiochus destroyed the Jews in Jerusalem. That is the point. Daniel 8 tells us that the little horn who would bring about the abomination of desolation would destroy the holy people. The Romans in 70 AD destroyed the Jewish nation and those who were not killed were scattered. See the following link:

Siege of Jerusalem​

Jewish-Roman war [70 CE]

Jesus when speaking of Daniel's abomination of desolation spoke of it happening in the future. Antiochus Epiphanes raid on Jerusalem occurred before the days of Jesus' ministry. Thus it makes more sense that it was the Roman Empire that was the little horn of Daniel 8 who was prophesied should bring about the abomination of desolation since this occurred after the days of Christ.

 

[onefour1]

Nah. Joseph Smith got too many basics wrong. God wouldn't make such mistakes.

Well you have a right to your opinion. But that is all it is, just Your Opinion!

 

[Clyde 154]

The word "apostle" simply means.....messenger or one that is sent. The only method the church of jesus christ of later-day saints can claim a right to the term apostle that would end in truth would be to accept the reality these supposed modern day apostles were "messengers" sent by men, not God.......the same for the RCC and its title Pope in the false claim that the linage of Apostle of Christ dates from Peter to modern days without missing a generation.....the Pope is not a messenger sent by God but a messenger grounded in the "traditions" established by man instead of the actual word of God which they claim to have authority over.

The word of God states very clearly the days when Apostles would be required to confirm the word of God would fail, when "THAT" which is perfect comes. Paul even admits that in his day it was like looking into a mirror for truth (mirrors were metal then and there would be a distortion of the refection).....because the Perfect had not yet arrived and each prophet, each apostle etc., held but one small part of the entire truth reveleated from God through the Holy Spirit). He knew and comprehended that a day would come shortly when the miraculous gifts would cease, because there be no further need to confirm the word of God when the revelations became Complete/Whole/Perfect......as per the Greek word used for THE PERFECT in both Paul and James writings. The N.T. is that "perfect" Paul was speaking of coming. Some argue the perfect is Jesus' 2nd return.....but Jesus was complete and He was never referred to as a thing.......THAT which is perfect. If Jesus is the perfect spoken of by Paul the scriptures would not be ambiguous..........they would state HE THAT IS PERFECT, not that which is perfect.

Greek: Teleios, The word perfect used by Paul in Cor. 13 is the same Greek word used by James when he referers to the N.T. doctrine as the "PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY" (James 1:25). The perfect that Paul is referring to is the Word of God, when the N.T. revelations were complete with ".........everything that is required for life and godliness" (2 Peter 1:3) Peter stated that day had arrived in the 1st century. Confirming what the scriptures declare in (Jude 3)......"the faith has been delivered ONCE FOR ALL.....by the saints." And that was in the 1st century, not the 19th century and Joseph Smith nor the 5th century with the first official appointment of the 1st Pope, nor when an illiterate nomad claimed to have written a book from God in being the prophet Mohammad in the 7th century. All after the faith had been delievered by the saints, ONCE FOR ALL in the 1st century........NOT hundreds and even thousands of years after the completion of the Perfect Law of Liberty.

Mankind is in possession of ".........(Jesus) has given to us (the believer) ALL THINGS THAT PERTAIN TO LIFE AND GODLINESS, THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM (Jesus) that called us to glory and virtue." -- 2 Peter 1:3. Man has been in possession of this knowledge for well over 2000 years and requires no Apostle of men, or Pope, or Modern Day prophet to enlighten us to this knowledge of the truth......all we need do is READ for OURSELVES and confirm the word of God as a righteous doctrine and when we fail we have a High Priest acting as our advocate, standing between our sins and the Father in the Form of Christ Jesus. Only God is to be prayed to..............

 

[Clyde 154]

When one examies the "book of Mormon"........a supposed inspired personal translation by Joseph Smith, its amusing to find out that the Book of Mormon uses at least 25000 direct, verbatim translations from the 1611 English Translation of the N.T. known as the King James Translation.

For example: Mosiah 14 is simply a copy/reproduction of Isa. 53. Nephi 13:1-23 is taken directly from Matthew 6:1-23. Moroni 7:45 a copy of 1 Cor. 13:4-7. Moroni 7:48 = 1 John 3:2. Moroni 10:8-17 = 1 Cor. 12:4-11. Alma 5:52 is Matthew 3:10. Nephi 14:1-3 is taken from Isa. 4:1-3.

God gave the early N.T. translation in Greek (the universal language of that time) in the 1st century. The question is why would God give to Joseph Smith a translation in middle age English from 1611 and not in modern 1830 American English? Was God's angel not capable of translating the word of God into American English?

Which begs to ask another question..........the Mormons declare that the Book of Mormon is superior to the N.T. Bible used today which they declare has been corrupted.......but they quote directly, using some 25000 words verbatim from that supposedly corrupted source....why?

In fact.......would 1830 not have been the perfect time for God to correct all the reproduction errors (errors of transmission instead of inspiration....which can be easily identified as errors of transmission/transcription when the entire, content, context and subject matter are kept in tact)? Why would the Book of Mormon still use this corrupted source as demonstrated above? But the passages listed above are VERBATIM to the King James Version.......the supposed source of corruption.

For example there are several "textual" tranmission/transcribing errors found in Matthew 6.......a passage that was copied verbatim by the Book of Mormon.....reproduced in Nephi 3:13. The text upon which the KJV was translated was in Greek....in Matthew 6:4 these words were used in the Book of Mormon (reproduced exactly as translated)......as was the word "openly" used in vss. 8 and 16 of Matthew 6.........and the verse "....for thine is the kingdom and the power, and the glory forever...Amen." -- Matthew 6:13. We find that these vss are not supported by the evidence of translation in our modern translation such a the ASV. Which omitts these passages as transcription errors......but the Book of Mormon still claims they are evidence of inspiration. Strange indeed........to use a corrupted passage.......demonstrated to be an error of transcription from another portion of scripture..but still used by the Book of Mormon. Some modern translations such as NASB still keep the vss......but place them within (Brackets) indicating there might be an transmission error.

These are just a few examles of how inspired the Book of Mormon might be.

 

[onefour1]

The word "apostle" simply means.....messenger or one that is sent. The only method the church of jesus christ of later-day saints can claim a right to the term apostle that would end in truth would be to accept the reality these supposed modern day apostles were "messengers" sent by men, not God.......the same for the RCC and its title Pope in the false claim that the linage of Apostle of Christ dates from Peter to modern days without missing a generation.....the Pope is not a messenger sent by God but a messenger grounded in the "traditions" established by man instead of the actual word of God which they claim to have authority over.

The word of God states very clearly the days when Apostles would be required to confirm the word of God would fail, when "THAT" which is perfect comes. Paul even admits that in his day it was like looking into a mirror for truth (mirrors were metal then and there would be a distortion of the refection).....because the Perfect had not yet arrived and each prophet, each apostle etc., held but one small part of the entire truth reveleated from God through the Holy Spirit). He knew and comprehended that a day would come shortly when the miraculous gifts would cease, because there be no further need to confirm the word of God when the revelations became Complete/Whole/Perfect......as per the Greek word used for THE PERFECT in both Paul and James writings. The N.T. is th11-14at "perfect" Paul was speaking of coming. Some argue the perfect is Jesus' 2nd return.....but Jesus was complete and He was never referred to as a thing.......THAT which is perfect. If Jesus is the perfect spoken of by Paul the scriptures would not be ambiguous..........they would state HE THAT IS PERFECT, not that which is perfect.

Greek: Teleios, The word perfect used by Paul in Cor. 13 is the same Greek word used by James when he referers to the N.T. doctrine as the "PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY" (James 1:25). The perfect that Paul is referring to is the Word of God, when the N.T. revelations were complete with ".........everything that is required for life and godliness" (2 Peter 1:3) Peter stated that day had arrived in the 1st century. Confirming what the scriptures declare in (Jude 3)......"the faith has been delivered ONCE FOR ALL.....by the saints." And that was in the 1st century, not the 19th century and Joseph Smith nor the 5th century with the first official appointment of the 1st Pope, nor when an illiterate nomad claimed to have written a book from God in being the prophet Mohammad in the 7th century. All after the faith had been delievered by the saints, ONCE FOR ALL in the 1st century........NOT hundreds and even thousands of years after the completion of the Perfect Law of Liberty.

Mankind is in possession of ".........(Jesus) has given to us (the believer) ALL THINGS THAT PERTAIN TO LIFE AND GODLINESS, THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM (Jesus) that called us to glory and virtue." -- 2 Peter 1:3. Man has been in possession of this knowledge for well over 2000 years and requires no Apostle of men, or Pope, or Modern Day prophet to enlighten us to this knowledge of the truth......all we need do is READ for OURSELVES and confirm the word of God as a righteous doctrine and when we fail we have a High Priest acting as our advocate, standing between our sins and the Father in the Form of Christ Jesus. Only God is to be prayed to..............

Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

So, have we all come to the unity of the faith? Have we all come unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ? These verses are clear that until we reach that stage, God has give us to have apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, etc in his church. These offices of the priesthood do not replace Christ but are used by Christ for the work of the ministry and for the edifying of the body of Christ, ie the church. To teach that these offices of the priesthood are no longer needed is simply false doctrine. Part of the perfection of the church of Jesus Christ is having priesthood offices that do the work of the ministry and the edifying of the body of Christ. The reason these did not exist after the days of the Apostles is because the church fell into a state of apostasy. Not until God began his restitution of all things did he restore his church again on the face of the earth.

Acts 3:20-21
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

 

[surada]

The Romans also destroyed the temple and left not one stone upon another.
I didn't say Antiochus destroyed the Jews in Jerusalem. That is the point. Daniel 8 tells us that the little horn who would bring about the abomination of desolation would destroy the holy people. The Romans in 70 AD destroyed the Jewish nation and those who were not killed were scattered. See the following link:

Siege of Jerusalem​

Jewish-Roman war [70 CE]

Jesus when speaking of Daniel's abomination of desolation spoke of it happening in the future. Antiochus Epiphanes raid on Jerusalem occurred before the days of Jesus' ministry. Thus it makes more sense that it was the Roman Empire that was the little horn of Daniel 8 who was prophesied should bring about the abomination of desolation since this occurred after the days of Christ.

Little horn being king of the north? Greece is north. Look at a map.

Shame really. Joseph Smith was either a conman or delusional.

Antiochus IV Epiphanies defiled the temple and made it an Abomination of Desolation in his lifetime. That's the reason for the Maccabean revolt and Chanukah.

 

[surada]

Daniel 8 speaks of the transgression of desolation in verses 11-13. This transgression of desolation occurs during the time of the power of the little horn which was to come after the power of the Ram and the He Goat. The Ram was a representation of the Persian/Median Empire and the Goat was a representation of the Greco/Macedonian Empire.

Daniel 8:20-25
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

So from the above we can know that the transgression of desolation spoken of in this chapter occurs only after the Greco/Macedonian Empire. We also know that toward the end of the era of the four kings of the Greco/Macedonian era a king of fierce countenance and understanding dark sentences was to come in. It is in his time that the transgression of desolation was to occur. During his time he was to destroy the mighty and the holy people whom I believe are the Jews of Jerusalem.

Granted, some have thought this to be Antiochus Epiphanes but he did not destroy the Jews in Jerusalem although he did do them great harm. My belief is that the new king that came in was the Roman Empire that literally destroyed the nation of the Jews in 70 AD. The Roman Empire better fits the other things in Daniel mention about the little horn.

Here are two articles, one is in favor of the Antiochus Epiphanes belief that he was the little horn and the other favors the belief that the Roman Empire was the little horn.

Antiochus Epiphanes—The Bible’s Most Notoriously Forgotten Villain​

What is the little horn in the book of Daniel?​

Since Jesus spoke of Daniel the Prophet's Abomination of Desolation being in the future and not in the past, the Roman Empire has my belief that it is the little horn.

Rome didn't take Palestine until 63 BC. Daniel wasn't writing about Rome. He was writing about Antiochus IV Epiphanies was a Greek Hellenistic king who ruled the Seleucid empire until his death in 164 BC. Joseph Smith should have known that.