The Common Denominator: Islam

[Kondor3]

Another way of distilling the core or root problem here...

1. show me where in the New Testament that Jesus of Nazareth said that it was OK to wage war and to kill and commit violence in the name of God or in support of his church

2. show me where in the Q'uran that Muhammed said that it was OK to wage war and to kill and commit violence in the name of God or in support of his religion

Believers, and even clerics, can say that it's OK to do so.

But, when the Founder says that it's not OK, Believers can always point to that as a sign that the church is overreaching and not being true to core beliefs.

By contrast, when the Founder himself says that it is OK, well... no such braking mechanism or reset button exists, by which to stop the madness, and, to add to the problem, those permissions can (and frequently are) used, to build a case for proposed wars.

We are talking two different houses of faith.

Each of those houses has a different foundation.

The nature of the foundation dictates the direction in which the house will lean be default - towards peace or war.

How did Christians manage to conquer virtually the entire North and South American continents, in many cases by aggressive force of arms,

if the Bible commands them not to do so?

Where they leaning on the Old Testament or the New?

Mind you, the New supersedes the Old, and the teachings of the New override those found in the Old.

Did Jesus of Nazareth give his followers permission to make war and to commit violence?

If not, then, those Christians were, in fact, acting in disobedience and opposition to the teachings of their Founder.

Jesus said love your enemies and turn the other cheek. Is that what you do? Are you a Christian?

My personal beliefs have little or nothing to do with the subject matter at hand.

And they certainly have nothing to do with whether or not those Christians were acting in disobedience and opposition to the teachings of their Founder.

Your personal beliefs further ruin your lame argument.

1. the argument is not ruined, but largely accurate and true, and strongly held, outside Islam.

2. you do not know what my personal beliefs are, therefore you cannot possibly cite them, successfully

Running out of maneuvering room, are you?

 

[Kondor3]

[

Another way of distilling the core or root problem here...

1. show me where in the New Testament that Jesus of Nazareth said that it was OK to wage war and to kill and commit violence in the name of God or in support of his church

.

Matthew-

10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Nice try.

The Christian founder was speaking metaphorically, about the trials and tribulations and hardships and shunning and isolation associated with believing in Jesus of Nazareth and his vision of the godhood, not literally, nor focused upon any particular enemy, nor upon unbelievers at large. An old canard, on 'your' end, and easily set aside.

 

[Kondor3]

I'll tell you what, I'll agree that the Islamic State is Islamic if conservatives will agree that the Christian Identity movement is Christian.

Christian Identity - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Wake me up when Christian Identity enlists scores of thousands of militia fighters and takes over substantial portions of two different countries and when it inherits large quantities of up-to-date armor and artillery assets as a result of that territorial conquest.

 

[Mustang]

I'll tell you what, I'll agree that the Islamic State is Islamic if conservatives will agree that the Christian Identity movement is Christian.

Christian Identity - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Wake me up when Christian Identity enlists scores of thousands of militia fighters and takes over substantial portions of two different countries and when it inherits large quantities of up-to-date armor and artillery assets as a result of that territorial conquest.

Are you so ignorant that it has to be spelled out for you?

ANYONE can claim to represent a religion, place that religion in their organization's name, and then engage in highly questionable and controversial acts of varying degrees of socially unacceptable behavior from the relatively benign (like general rudeness) to illegal acts like kidnapping, murder, etc. The point is that just because a person or a group puts the name of a religion in their name doesn't mean that they represent the true tenets of the faith.

Christians had their own bloody era spanning several hundred years. Those time saw those so-called Christians engage in war on their neighbors, which also included the wholesale killing of foreigners, aboriginal natives, and even their own fellow countrymen in religious purges and hunts for witches.

So, does the Christian Identity movement represent Christianity, or not?

 

[Kondor3]

I'll tell you what, I'll agree that the Islamic State is Islamic if conservatives will agree that the Christian Identity movement is Christian.

Christian Identity - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Wake me up when Christian Identity enlists scores of thousands of militia fighters and takes over substantial portions of two different countries and when it inherits large quantities of up-to-date armor and artillery assets as a result of that territorial conquest.

Are you so ignorant that it has to be spelled out for you?...

Are you so naive that you actually believe that Liberal faux equivalency happy horseshit that you're shoveling?

...ANYONE can claim to represent a religion, place that religion in their organization's name, and then engage in highly questionable and controversial acts of varying degrees of socially unacceptable behavior from the relatively benign (like general rudeness) to illegal acts like kidnapping, murder, etc. The point is that just because a person or a group puts the name of a religion in their name doesn't mean that they represent the true tenets of the faith...

Radical, Militant Islam has manifested itself in many ways. ISIS is just one of them.

...Christians had their own bloody era spanning several hundred years. Those time saw those so-called Christians engage in war on their neighbors, which also included the wholesale killing of foreigners, aboriginal natives, and even their own fellow countrymen in religious purges and hunts for witches...

Yep. But Islam never kept-up with the rest of the world and is trying to drag it back several centuries in a universe filled with nuclear weapons. We can't afford to wait for them to catch up. And we can't afford to allow their Radical, Militant, World-Conquest element to gain sufficient traction to pose a nuclear or large-scale conventional threat. Jihad was cute in the 7th or 11th or 14th, but it can't be allowed in the 21st.

...So, does the Christian Identity movement represent Christianity, or not?

Nope. Then again, they don't have any degree of traction akin to that acquired by ISIS, which is getting a great deal of backing from the various populations it infects.

 

[JoeB131]

[
Nice try.

The Christian founder was speaking metaphorically, about the trials and tribulations and hardships and shunning and isolation associated with believing in Jesus of Nazareth and his vision of the godhood, not literally, nor focused upon any particular enemy, nor upon unbelievers at large. An old canard, on 'your' end, and easily set aside.

Really? Honestly, it sounds like he's setting families against each other and threatening the ones who don't believe in him with horrible consequences even in this life.

I mean, I know you guys like to say the word "Context" when screaming when we get the most juicy parts of the bible. (I like the Psalm where they celebrate smashing babies' heads into rocks, personally.)

Maybe you ought to cut the Koran the same slack.

 

[Mustang]

I'll tell you what, I'll agree that the Islamic State is Islamic if conservatives will agree that the Christian Identity movement is Christian.

Christian Identity - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Wake me up when Christian Identity enlists scores of thousands of militia fighters and takes over substantial portions of two different countries and when it inherits large quantities of up-to-date armor and artillery assets as a result of that territorial conquest.

Are you so ignorant that it has to be spelled out for you?...

Are you so naive that you actually believe that Liberal faux equivalency happy horseshit that you're shoveling?

...ANYONE can claim to represent a religion, place that religion in their organization's name, and then engage in highly questionable and controversial acts of varying degrees of socially unacceptable behavior from the relatively benign (like general rudeness) to illegal acts like kidnapping, murder, etc. The point is that just because a person or a group puts the name of a religion in their name doesn't mean that they represent the true tenets of the faith...

Radical, Militant Islam has manifested itself in many ways. ISIS is just one of them.

...Christians had their own bloody era spanning several hundred years. Those time saw those so-called Christians engage in war on their neighbors, which also included the wholesale killing of foreigners, aboriginal natives, and even their own fellow countrymen in religious purges and hunts for witches...

Yep. But Islam never kept-up with the rest of the world and is trying to drag it back several centuries in a universe filled with nuclear weapons. We can't afford to wait for them to catch up. And we can't afford to allow their Radical, Militant, World-Conquest element to gain sufficient traction to pose a nuclear or large-scale conventional threat. Jihad was cute in the 7th or 11th or 14th, but it can't be allowed in the 21st.

...So, does the Christian Identity movement represent Christianity, or not?

Nope. Then again, they don't have any degree of traction akin to that acquired by ISIS, which is getting a great deal of backing from the various populations it infects.

If you don't understand what logic is then perhaps the next time the weather turns bad on your days off when you had plans to go camping, you should just open up the window and yell at the rain. I don't just mean you either. The whole conservative movement seems to be full of people who reach conclusions (and fail to reach them) due solely to an emotional reaction of one kind or another instead of actually taking time to look at the evidence and evaluate it dispassionately.

 

[Kondor3]

I'll tell you what, I'll agree that the Islamic State is Islamic if conservatives will agree that the Christian Identity movement is Christian.

Christian Identity - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Wake me up when Christian Identity enlists scores of thousands of militia fighters and takes over substantial portions of two different countries and when it inherits large quantities of up-to-date armor and artillery assets as a result of that territorial conquest.

Are you so ignorant that it has to be spelled out for you?...

Are you so naive that you actually believe that Liberal faux equivalency happy horseshit that you're shoveling?

...ANYONE can claim to represent a religion, place that religion in their organization's name, and then engage in highly questionable and controversial acts of varying degrees of socially unacceptable behavior from the relatively benign (like general rudeness) to illegal acts like kidnapping, murder, etc. The point is that just because a person or a group puts the name of a religion in their name doesn't mean that they represent the true tenets of the faith...

Radical, Militant Islam has manifested itself in many ways. ISIS is just one of them.

...Christians had their own bloody era spanning several hundred years. Those time saw those so-called Christians engage in war on their neighbors, which also included the wholesale killing of foreigners, aboriginal natives, and even their own fellow countrymen in religious purges and hunts for witches...

Yep. But Islam never kept-up with the rest of the world and is trying to drag it back several centuries in a universe filled with nuclear weapons. We can't afford to wait for them to catch up. And we can't afford to allow their Radical, Militant, World-Conquest element to gain sufficient traction to pose a nuclear or large-scale conventional threat. Jihad was cute in the 7th or 11th or 14th, but it can't be allowed in the 21st.

...So, does the Christian Identity movement represent Christianity, or not?

Nope. Then again, they don't have any degree of traction akin to that acquired by ISIS, which is getting a great deal of backing from the various populations it infects.

If you don't understand what logic is then perhaps the next time the weather turns bad on your days off when you had plans to go camping, you should just open up the window and yell at the rain. I don't just mean you either. The whole conservative movement seems to be full of people who reach conclusions (and fail to reach them) due solely to an emotional reaction of one kind or another instead of actually taking time to look at the evidence and evaluate it dispassionately.

You appear to be in need of a remedial course in Enemy Identification.

I did not expect that to change during the course of our exchange, and you did not disappoint.

 

[Mustang]

I'll tell you what, I'll agree that the Islamic State is Islamic if conservatives will agree that the Christian Identity movement is Christian.

Christian Identity - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Wake me up when Christian Identity enlists scores of thousands of militia fighters and takes over substantial portions of two different countries and when it inherits large quantities of up-to-date armor and artillery assets as a result of that territorial conquest.

Are you so ignorant that it has to be spelled out for you?...

Are you so naive that you actually believe that Liberal faux equivalency happy horseshit that you're shoveling?

...ANYONE can claim to represent a religion, place that religion in their organization's name, and then engage in highly questionable and controversial acts of varying degrees of socially unacceptable behavior from the relatively benign (like general rudeness) to illegal acts like kidnapping, murder, etc. The point is that just because a person or a group puts the name of a religion in their name doesn't mean that they represent the true tenets of the faith...

Radical, Militant Islam has manifested itself in many ways. ISIS is just one of them.

...Christians had their own bloody era spanning several hundred years. Those time saw those so-called Christians engage in war on their neighbors, which also included the wholesale killing of foreigners, aboriginal natives, and even their own fellow countrymen in religious purges and hunts for witches...

Yep. But Islam never kept-up with the rest of the world and is trying to drag it back several centuries in a universe filled with nuclear weapons. We can't afford to wait for them to catch up. And we can't afford to allow their Radical, Militant, World-Conquest element to gain sufficient traction to pose a nuclear or large-scale conventional threat. Jihad was cute in the 7th or 11th or 14th, but it can't be allowed in the 21st.

...So, does the Christian Identity movement represent Christianity, or not?

Nope. Then again, they don't have any degree of traction akin to that acquired by ISIS, which is getting a great deal of backing from the various populations it infects.

If you don't understand what logic is then perhaps the next time the weather turns bad on your days off when you had plans to go camping, you should just open up the window and yell at the rain. I don't just mean you either. The whole conservative movement seems to be full of people who reach conclusions (and fail to reach them) due solely to an emotional reaction of one kind or another instead of actually taking time to look at the evidence and evaluate it dispassionately.

You appear to be in need of a remedial course in Enemy Identification.

I did not expect that to change during the course of our exchange, and you did not disappoint.

It depends on what enemy you're talking about. As far as ISIS or ISIL is concerned, I don't see them as my enemy per se as much as they're the enemy of moderate forces in the ME who would much rather live in peace with their neighbors.

However, in that sense, extremists are ALWAYS the enemy of reasonable people. It's also true to say that extremists are liars of the worst sort because they well say ANYTHING to further their cause, and they don't care how that's accomplished. They will lie about religion and what they're religion says. That was my entire point. In that sense, I don't really see all that much of a fundamental difference between ISIL and the Christian Identity movement although the immediate threat level of the two groups is not equivalent.

As for me, I've grown increasingly disenchanted over the years with the whole Machiavellian attitude of some people who have absolutely no moral qualms about telling any lie to achieve their objectives. Currently, the conservative movement in America is rife with those kinds of people. The fact that they call themselves moral agents of change only adds insult to the injurious nature of their activities.

 

[PoliticalChic]

"Brendan Tevlin was catching up with old friends and classmates after returning home to Livingston, New Jersey, following his first year at the University of Richmond. On the night of June 25, the 19-year-old spent several hours at a friend’s place in West Orange, a town bordering his own, then texted his mother that he was heading home.

He never arrived. Somewhere around midnight, as Tevlin pulled up to an intersection bordering a large wooded area, at least three and possibly four men approached his car. One of the men opened fire, killing the college student in a murder that shocked the quiet neighborhood, where violence is rare.

...Brown had described his four murders as “just kills,” or justified murders,...

....the motive for Brown’s bank fraud, which he undertook with several acquaintances who regularly gathered to discuss jihad, had been to raise money for Somali terrorists,....

....Brown’s jihad has received little coverage.... a terrorism expert and director of the Institute for National Security and Counterterrorism at Syracuse University, told the Star-Ledger that based on his statements to investigators, Brown could also be tried by federal officials as a terrorist.

But it’s now clear that the same jihadist ideology that rained terror down on the 9/11 victims also took the lives of Brendan Tevlin and three other innocent souls in Seattle."
Jersey Jihadist by Steven Malanga City Journal 17 September 2014

 

[JoeB131]

PC, there's a Muslim hiding under your bed right now.

A big, sweaty, hair muscular Muslim.

 

[PoliticalChic]

PC, there's a Muslim hiding under your bed right now.

A big, sweaty, hair muscular Muslim.

Saudi Arabia is the icon of Muslim Nations, it is the keeper of Mecca.

If Islam is 'the religion of peace,' .....

.....why is there a sword on their flag?

 

[JoeB131]

PC, there's a Muslim hiding under your bed right now.

A big, sweaty, hair muscular Muslim.

Saudi Arabia is the icon of Muslim Nations, it is the keeper of Mecca.

If Islam is 'the religion of peace,' .....

.....why is there a sword on their flag?

You'd have to ask them.

Frankly, maybe if we stopped going over and screwing with them, we wouldn't have problems with them.

 

[PoliticalChic]

PC, there's a Muslim hiding under your bed right now.

A big, sweaty, hair muscular Muslim.

Saudi Arabia is the icon of Muslim Nations, it is the keeper of Mecca.

If Islam is 'the religion of peace,' .....

.....why is there a sword on their flag?

You'd have to ask them.

Frankly, maybe if we stopped going over and screwing with them, we wouldn't have problems with them.

"...we wouldn't have problems with them."

Yeah,we would.

As long as the Q'ran remains the instruction book.....

...you will have the options of

a. converting to Islam

b. paying special tax and accepting humiliation

c. being slaughtered





d. or standing up like a man and admitting the truth.

 

[NYcarbineer]

PC, there's a Muslim hiding under your bed right now.

A big, sweaty, hair muscular Muslim.

Saudi Arabia is the icon of Muslim Nations, it is the keeper of Mecca.

If Islam is 'the religion of peace,' .....

.....why is there a sword on their flag?

Or you could ask, if Islam is the religion of peace, why have so many Muslim nations joined the US in the military action against ISIS?

 

[JoeB131]

PC, there's a Muslim hiding under your bed right now.

A big, sweaty, hair muscular Muslim.

Saudi Arabia is the icon of Muslim Nations, it is the keeper of Mecca.

If Islam is 'the religion of peace,' .....

.....why is there a sword on their flag?

You'd have to ask them.

Frankly, maybe if we stopped going over and screwing with them, we wouldn't have problems with them.

"...we wouldn't have problems with them."

Yeah,we would.

As long as the Q'ran remains the instruction book.....

...you will have the options of

a. converting to Islam

b. paying special tax and accepting humiliation

c. being slaughtered

d. or standing up like a man and admitting the truth.

You know, we have THIS instruction book, and oddly, this never happens.

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. -- Psalm 137:9

 

[JoeB131]

PC, there's a Muslim hiding under your bed right now.

A big, sweaty, hair muscular Muslim.

Saudi Arabia is the icon of Muslim Nations, it is the keeper of Mecca.

If Islam is 'the religion of peace,' .....

.....why is there a sword on their flag?

Or you could ask, if Islam is the religion of peace, why have so many Muslim nations joined the US in the military action against ISIS?

PC needs to believer her Sky Fairy is superior to their Sky Fairy

 

[PoliticalChic]

PC, there's a Muslim hiding under your bed right now.

A big, sweaty, hair muscular Muslim.

Saudi Arabia is the icon of Muslim Nations, it is the keeper of Mecca.

If Islam is 'the religion of peace,' .....

.....why is there a sword on their flag?

You'd have to ask them.

Frankly, maybe if we stopped going over and screwing with them, we wouldn't have problems with them.

"...we wouldn't have problems with them."

Yeah,we would.

As long as the Q'ran remains the instruction book.....

...you will have the options of

a. converting to Islam

b. paying special tax and accepting humiliation

c. being slaughtered

d. or standing up like a man and admitting the truth.

You know, we have THIS instruction book, and oddly, this never happens.

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. -- Psalm 137:9

Of course any religion can take on evil and offensive aspects. It depends on which attitudes of the founding documents are emphasized. The Q’ran has all sorts of postures, and the same syncretism is reflected in the Old and New Testaments, as well.
The difference is the thesis of "abrogation," that enforces the homicidal instructions in the Q'ran...and obviates the peaceful ones.

You didn't know that, did you.


How foolish is it to make the argument that followers of the Bible are as likely to emphasized the violent, inhuman aspects as are the adherents of the Q’ran. To make that argument is akin to “who are you gonna believe, me or your lyin’ eyes.”

1. At this moment in time, there is only one major religion in which it is not uncommon for religious services to be followed by murder and mayhem.

2. While all Muslims are not terrorists, a useful generalization is that all terrorists are Muslims.

3. Huge numbers of Muslims support terrorism and violence.

 

[JoeB131]

[



Of course any religion can take on evil and offensive aspects. It depends on which attitudes of the founding documents are emphasized. The Q’ran has all sorts of postures, and the same syncretism is reflected in the Old and New Testaments, as well.
The difference is the thesis of "abrogation," that enforces the homicidal instructions in the Q'ran...and obviates the peaceful ones.

You didn't know that, did you.

How foolish is it to make the argument that followers of the Bible are as likely to emphasized the violent, inhuman aspects as are the adherents of the Q’ran. To make that argument is akin to “who are you gonna believe, me or your lyin’ eyes.”

1. At this moment in time, there is only one major religion in which it is not uncommon for religious services to be followed by murder and mayhem.

2. While all Muslims are not terrorists, a useful generalization is that all terrorists are Muslims.

3. Huge numbers of Muslims support terrorism and violence.

Um, okay.

YOu know what, the people who instigated the Holocaust weren't Muslims, they were Christians who wore belt buckles like this.

Notice it says 'God with Us" (Gott Mit Uns) not "Alluha Akbar".

And then you have this stupidity....

2. While all Muslims are not terrorists, a useful generalization is that all terrorists are Muslims.


Uh, no. Timothy McVeigh, Eric Rudolf, Ted Kaczinski were not "Muslims" but they were 'Terrorists".

I try to avoid the word "Terrorist" because Ronald Reagan insisted up and down that Osama bin Laden and his lot were "Freedom Fighters" when they were killing Russians in Afghanistan. They only became "Terrorists" when they started killing Americans.

 

[PoliticalChic]

PC, there's a Muslim hiding under your bed right now.

A big, sweaty, hair muscular Muslim.

Saudi Arabia is the icon of Muslim Nations, it is the keeper of Mecca.

If Islam is 'the religion of peace,' .....

.....why is there a sword on their flag?

Or you could ask, if Islam is the religion of peace, why have so many Muslim nations joined the US in the military action against ISIS?

PC needs to believer her Sky Fairy is superior to their Sky Fairy

"The rising tide of Muslim converts to Christianity
He believes between 2 and 7 million former Muslims have converted to Christianity in the past two decades, and he has impressive research to back up his claim. He documents his findings in his book A Wind in the House of Islam."
WORLD The rising tide of Muslim converts to Christianity Warren Cole Smith July 28 2014