The Confederacy and States' Rights

[paperview]

Rape being used as a weapon goes back to Ancient History, and the confederates did their share - and they surely did it to the slaves.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Rape being used as a weapon goes back to Ancient History, and the confederates did their share - and they surely did it to the slaves.

I'm sure they did, but Equat asked which Union general gave permission to rape. Sherman never gave any official permission, but there are widespread accounts of his men raping free women and slaves alike. Not to mention the looting, murder, and sacking of cities that they committed.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Rape is an age-old military behavior that goes back to the beginning of man. And rape was customary in the old South between white men and black women. No slave woman had the right either to consent or to resist. That alone made the destruction of slavery while preserving the Union worthwhile.

 

[paperview]

The slaves condition was not natural as the Rebs (short for "Rebels" not "Reps") claimed.

Which Union general gave permission to rape? I know that that Union tried both Union and Confederates for raping whites and slaves. Rape is commonplace for occupying armies. A German woman I knew told me that her father hid her in the hay in the barn to protect her from the Soviet rapist invaders and wished the Americans to be their occupiers.

I've got work to do. TTYL.

There was no Union General that gave permission to rape. That is propaganda.

The punishment for rape was death.

"...It has come to the knowledge of the major-general commanding that some of the few men among us who are evilly disposed have attempted the commission of a crime which will justly draw upon the troops universal condemnation
...The punishment for rape will be death, and any violence offered a female, white or colored, with the evident intent or purpose to commit rape will be considered as one and punished accordingly." (Gl order N°12, may 1862 by command of gl McDowell- OR S2 vol III)

During the war, rape is a capital offense punished
by death - (Gl order N°100, April 1863, US War dpt)

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Rape is an age-old military behavior that goes back to the beginning of man. And rape was customary in the old South between white men and black women. No slave woman had the right either to consent or to resist. That alone made the destruction of slavery while preserving the Union worthwhile.

So it's ok that the Union raped free women and slaves, but not the Confederacy?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Proletarian, I am asking gently here: do you hvae a point

What does it mean, 'to hvae'?

I'm just clarifying the facts.

 

[paperview]

Rape is an age-old military behavior that goes back to the beginning of man. And rape was customary in the old South between white men and black women. No slave woman had the right either to consent or to resist. That alone made the destruction of slavery while preserving the Union worthwhile.

So it's ok that the Union raped free women and slaves, but not the Confederacy?

No it wasn't OK, you dunderhead.

• According to the "List of US soldiers executed by the United States military authorities during the late war" (established in 1885 - National Archives) 24 US soldiers were executed :

• Execution of pvt William H.Johnson 23rd USCT
  
  Petersburg, Va, probably 20 june 1864 for attempted rape (not on the official list !)​
• 
  
  [*]Bell John, 23 years old, born in Va, farmer, pvt, Co I, 2nd Ks Cav, hanged 11 july 1862 for the rape of Mrs Elizabeth Haywood, (a soldier's wife of 9th Ks vol.), near Iola (Ks) on 4 july night.
  [*]Callaghan (or Callahan) John, 18, b.Ireland, Pvt Co.H, 2nd NJ cav. / Snover Jacob F., b. NJ 1823, farmer, married, 4 children, pvt Co M, 2nd NJ cav./ Johnson Thomas, 22, b. England, saddler, pvt co.D, 2nd NJ Cav. all three shooted 10 june 1864 at Memphis (Tn) for the gang rape of Mrs Margaret J. Brooks (married, 2 young children) in the afternoon of 12 march on the road near Memphis.
  [*]Carroll (Carrol) John, 38, pvt, Co D, 20th Ws, shooted 11 november 1864 for attempt of rape on Mrs Mary Gidon (colored) and others crimes at Brownsville (Tx) 19 november 1863.
  [*]Dawson Thomas, 32, b.ireland, laborer, pvt, Co H, 20th Mass., hanged at Stevensburg (Va) 20 april 1864 for desertion and rape of Mrs Frances West (60) near Morrisville (Va)
  [*]Geary Daniel, 18, pvt, co G, 72nd NY Vol. / Gordon Ransom S. 23, pvt, Co E, 72nd NY vol. both hanged 15 july 1864 for the rape of Mrs Mary Stiles (b.1835, married, 2 children, seamstress) near Prince george Courthouse (Va) on the night of 18 june.
  [*]Preble James, 22, b.Batavia (NY), pvt, co K, 12 NY cav., shooted at Goldsboro (NC) 31 march 1865 for attempted rape on Mrs Rebecca Drake (23) and Miss Louise Jane Bedard, her cousin (17) and rape of Miss Letitia Craft her aunt (58) near Kingston (NC) on the afternoon of 16 march 1865.
  [*]Sperry Charles, 29, b. Ireland, printer, sgt, co E, 13th NY cav., executed in Old Capitol prison, Washington DC, 3 march 1865 for attempted rape of Miss Annie Nelson (15) in Fairfax county (Va) in the night of 18 june 1864.
  [*]Catlett Alfred, 20, from Richmond (Va), farmer, pvt, co E, 1st heavy Art. USCT / Colwell Alexander, 26, farmer from NC, pvt same unit / Turner Charles, 18, farmer from Charleston (SC), pvt same unit / Washington Jackson, 22, farmer from NC, pvt co K same unit / The four was shooted at Asheville (NC) 6 may 1865 for the gang rape of "a young white woman" (in OR S1 vol XLIX part II).
  [*]Brooks Dandridge, 22, driver, b.Va, sgt, Co G, 38th USCT / Jackson William, 24, laborer, b Va, cpl co G, 38th USCT / Sheppard John, 20, laborer, b Va, cpl co I, 38th USCT / hanged at Brownsville (Tx) 30 july 1865 (Sheppard 13 october) for the gang rape of Miss Eliza Harriet Woodson (14) and Mrs Fannie Crawford near Richmond (Va) during the night of 11 april 1865. The 38th USCT was transfered to Texas where the three men was executed. A fourth was never seized.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Rape is an age-old military behavior that goes back to the beginning of man. And rape was customary in the old South between white men and black women. No slave woman had the right either to consent or to resist. That alone made the destruction of slavery while preserving the Union worthwhile.

So it's ok that the Union raped free women and slaves, but not the Confederacy?

Kevin, try being honest here.

 

[Sunni Man]

Both Confederate and Union soldiers were Americans.

They all deserve the same honor and respect.

Both should be hailed as heros who shaped this nations ultimate destiny

 

[JakeStarkey]

Proletarian, I am asking gently here: do you hvae a point

What does it mean, 'to hvae'?

I'm just clarifying the facts.

Don't be silly, Proletarian. What is your point?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Rape is an age-old military behavior that goes back to the beginning of man. And rape was customary in the old South between white men and black women. No slave woman had the right either to consent or to resist. That alone made the destruction of slavery while preserving the Union worthwhile.

So it's ok that the Union raped free women and slaves, but not the Confederacy?

No it wasn't OK, you dunderhead.

• According to the "List of US soldiers executed by the United States military authorities during the late war" (established in 1885 - National Archives) 24 US soldiers were executed :

• Execution of pvt William H.Johnson 23rd USCT
  
  Petersburg, Va, probably 20 june 1864 for attempted rape (not on the official list !)​
• 
  
  [*]Bell John, 23 years old, born in Va, farmer, pvt, Co I, 2nd Ks Cav, hanged 11 july 1862 for the rape of Mrs Elizabeth Haywood, (a soldier's wife of 9th Ks vol.), near Iola (Ks) on 4 july night.
  [*]Callaghan (or Callahan) John, 18, b.Ireland, Pvt Co.H, 2nd NJ cav. / Snover Jacob F., b. NJ 1823, farmer, married, 4 children, pvt Co M, 2nd NJ cav./ Johnson Thomas, 22, b. England, saddler, pvt co.D, 2nd NJ Cav. all three shooted 10 june 1864 at Memphis (Tn) for the gang rape of Mrs Margaret J. Brooks (married, 2 young children) in the afternoon of 12 march on the road near Memphis.
  [*]Carroll (Carrol) John, 38, pvt, Co D, 20th Ws, shooted 11 november 1864 for attempt of rape on Mrs Mary Gidon (colored) and others crimes at Brownsville (Tx) 19 november 1863.
  [*]Dawson Thomas, 32, b.ireland, laborer, pvt, Co H, 20th Mass., hanged at Stevensburg (Va) 20 april 1864 for desertion and rape of Mrs Frances West (60) near Morrisville (Va)
  [*]Geary Daniel, 18, pvt, co G, 72nd NY Vol. / Gordon Ransom S. 23, pvt, Co E, 72nd NY vol. both hanged 15 july 1864 for the rape of Mrs Mary Stiles (b.1835, married, 2 children, seamstress) near Prince george Courthouse (Va) on the night of 18 june.
  [*]Preble James, 22, b.Batavia (NY), pvt, co K, 12 NY cav., shooted at Goldsboro (NC) 31 march 1865 for attempted rape on Mrs Rebecca Drake (23) and Miss Louise Jane Bedard, her cousin (17) and rape of Miss Letitia Craft her aunt (58) near Kingston (NC) on the afternoon of 16 march 1865.
  [*]Sperry Charles, 29, b. Ireland, printer, sgt, co E, 13th NY cav., executed in Old Capitol prison, Washington DC, 3 march 1865 for attempted rape of Miss Annie Nelson (15) in Fairfax county (Va) in the night of 18 june 1864.
  [*]Catlett Alfred, 20, from Richmond (Va), farmer, pvt, co E, 1st heavy Art. USCT / Colwell Alexander, 26, farmer from NC, pvt same unit / Turner Charles, 18, farmer from Charleston (SC), pvt same unit / Washington Jackson, 22, farmer from NC, pvt co K same unit / The four was shooted at Asheville (NC) 6 may 1865 for the gang rape of "a young white woman" (in OR S1 vol XLIX part II).
  [*]Brooks Dandridge, 22, driver, b.Va, sgt, Co G, 38th USCT / Jackson William, 24, laborer, b Va, cpl co G, 38th USCT / Sheppard John, 20, laborer, b Va, cpl co I, 38th USCT / hanged at Brownsville (Tx) 30 july 1865 (Sheppard 13 october) for the gang rape of Miss Eliza Harriet Woodson (14) and Mrs Fannie Crawford near Richmond (Va) during the night of 11 april 1865. The 38th USCT was transfered to Texas where the three men was executed. A fourth was never seized.

My question was in response to Jake's post where he seems to rationalize away the Union's use of rape as a means of terrorizing southern women as simply being a form of warfare, but condemning the southerners who raped their slaves.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Rape is an age-old military behavior that goes back to the beginning of man. And rape was customary in the old South between white men and black women. No slave woman had the right either to consent or to resist. That alone made the destruction of slavery while preserving the Union worthwhile.

So it's ok that the Union raped free women and slaves, but not the Confederacy?

Kevin, try being honest here.

I'm trying my very hardest.

 

[paperview]

So it's ok that the Union raped free women and slaves, but not the Confederacy?

No it wasn't OK, you dunderhead.

• According to the "List of US soldiers executed by the United States military authorities during the late war" (established in 1885 - National Archives) 24 US soldiers were executed :

• Execution of pvt William H.Johnson 23rd USCT
  
  Petersburg, Va, probably 20 june 1864 for attempted rape (not on the official list !)​
• 
  
  [*]Bell John, 23 years old, born in Va, farmer, pvt, Co I, 2nd Ks Cav, hanged 11 july 1862 for the rape of Mrs Elizabeth Haywood, (a soldier's wife of 9th Ks vol.), near Iola (Ks) on 4 july night.
  [*]Callaghan (or Callahan) John, 18, b.Ireland, Pvt Co.H, 2nd NJ cav. / Snover Jacob F., b. NJ 1823, farmer, married, 4 children, pvt Co M, 2nd NJ cav./ Johnson Thomas, 22, b. England, saddler, pvt co.D, 2nd NJ Cav. all three shooted 10 june 1864 at Memphis (Tn) for the gang rape of Mrs Margaret J. Brooks (married, 2 young children) in the afternoon of 12 march on the road near Memphis.
  [*]Carroll (Carrol) John, 38, pvt, Co D, 20th Ws, shooted 11 november 1864 for attempt of rape on Mrs Mary Gidon (colored) and others crimes at Brownsville (Tx) 19 november 1863.
  [*]Dawson Thomas, 32, b.ireland, laborer, pvt, Co H, 20th Mass., hanged at Stevensburg (Va) 20 april 1864 for desertion and rape of Mrs Frances West (60) near Morrisville (Va)
  [*]Geary Daniel, 18, pvt, co G, 72nd NY Vol. / Gordon Ransom S. 23, pvt, Co E, 72nd NY vol. both hanged 15 july 1864 for the rape of Mrs Mary Stiles (b.1835, married, 2 children, seamstress) near Prince george Courthouse (Va) on the night of 18 june.
  [*]Preble James, 22, b.Batavia (NY), pvt, co K, 12 NY cav., shooted at Goldsboro (NC) 31 march 1865 for attempted rape on Mrs Rebecca Drake (23) and Miss Louise Jane Bedard, her cousin (17) and rape of Miss Letitia Craft her aunt (58) near Kingston (NC) on the afternoon of 16 march 1865.
  [*]Sperry Charles, 29, b. Ireland, printer, sgt, co E, 13th NY cav., executed in Old Capitol prison, Washington DC, 3 march 1865 for attempted rape of Miss Annie Nelson (15) in Fairfax county (Va) in the night of 18 june 1864.
  [*]Catlett Alfred, 20, from Richmond (Va), farmer, pvt, co E, 1st heavy Art. USCT / Colwell Alexander, 26, farmer from NC, pvt same unit / Turner Charles, 18, farmer from Charleston (SC), pvt same unit / Washington Jackson, 22, farmer from NC, pvt co K same unit / The four was shooted at Asheville (NC) 6 may 1865 for the gang rape of "a young white woman" (in OR S1 vol XLIX part II).
  [*]Brooks Dandridge, 22, driver, b.Va, sgt, Co G, 38th USCT / Jackson William, 24, laborer, b Va, cpl co G, 38th USCT / Sheppard John, 20, laborer, b Va, cpl co I, 38th USCT / hanged at Brownsville (Tx) 30 july 1865 (Sheppard 13 october) for the gang rape of Miss Eliza Harriet Woodson (14) and Mrs Fannie Crawford near Richmond (Va) during the night of 11 april 1865. The 38th USCT was transfered to Texas where the three men was executed. A fourth was never seized.

My question was in response to Jake's post where he seems to rationalize away the Union's use of rape as a means of terrorizing southern women as simply being a form of warfare, but condemning the southerners who raped their slaves.

Maybe the difference is, the southerners could do it legally.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

The slaves condition was not natural as the Rebs (short for "Rebels" not "Reps") claimed.

Which Union general gave permission to rape? I know that that Union tried both Union and Confederates for raping whites and slaves. Rape is commonplace for occupying armies. A German woman I knew told me that her father hid her in the hay in the barn to protect her from the Soviet rapist invaders and wished the Americans to be their occupiers.

I've got work to do. TTYL.

There was no Union General that gave permission to rape. That is propaganda.

Butler's General Order No. 28 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HDQRS. DEPARTMENT OF THE GULF
New Orleans, May 15, 1862. As the officers and soldiers of the United States have been subject to repeated insults from the women (calling themselves ladies) of New Orleans in return for the most scrupulous non-interference and courtesy on our part, it is ordered that hereafter when any female shall by word, gesture, or movement insult or show contempt for any officer or soldier of the United States she shall be regarded and held liable to be treated as a woman of the town plying her avocation. By command of Major-General Butler: GEO. C. STRONG,Assistant Adjutant-General and Chief of Staff.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butler's_General_Order_No._28#cite_note-2http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butler's_General_Order_No._28#cite_note-3​

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

No it wasn't OK, you dunderhead.

• According to the "List of US soldiers executed by the United States military authorities during the late war" (established in 1885 - National Archives) 24 US soldiers were executed :

• Execution of pvt William H.Johnson 23rd USCT
  
  Petersburg, Va, probably 20 june 1864 for attempted rape (not on the official list !)​
• 
  
  [*]Bell John, 23 years old, born in Va, farmer, pvt, Co I, 2nd Ks Cav, hanged 11 july 1862 for the rape of Mrs Elizabeth Haywood, (a soldier's wife of 9th Ks vol.), near Iola (Ks) on 4 july night.
  [*]Callaghan (or Callahan) John, 18, b.Ireland, Pvt Co.H, 2nd NJ cav. / Snover Jacob F., b. NJ 1823, farmer, married, 4 children, pvt Co M, 2nd NJ cav./ Johnson Thomas, 22, b. England, saddler, pvt co.D, 2nd NJ Cav. all three shooted 10 june 1864 at Memphis (Tn) for the gang rape of Mrs Margaret J. Brooks (married, 2 young children) in the afternoon of 12 march on the road near Memphis.
  [*]Carroll (Carrol) John, 38, pvt, Co D, 20th Ws, shooted 11 november 1864 for attempt of rape on Mrs Mary Gidon (colored) and others crimes at Brownsville (Tx) 19 november 1863.
  [*]Dawson Thomas, 32, b.ireland, laborer, pvt, Co H, 20th Mass., hanged at Stevensburg (Va) 20 april 1864 for desertion and rape of Mrs Frances West (60) near Morrisville (Va)
  [*]Geary Daniel, 18, pvt, co G, 72nd NY Vol. / Gordon Ransom S. 23, pvt, Co E, 72nd NY vol. both hanged 15 july 1864 for the rape of Mrs Mary Stiles (b.1835, married, 2 children, seamstress) near Prince george Courthouse (Va) on the night of 18 june.
  [*]Preble James, 22, b.Batavia (NY), pvt, co K, 12 NY cav., shooted at Goldsboro (NC) 31 march 1865 for attempted rape on Mrs Rebecca Drake (23) and Miss Louise Jane Bedard, her cousin (17) and rape of Miss Letitia Craft her aunt (58) near Kingston (NC) on the afternoon of 16 march 1865.
  [*]Sperry Charles, 29, b. Ireland, printer, sgt, co E, 13th NY cav., executed in Old Capitol prison, Washington DC, 3 march 1865 for attempted rape of Miss Annie Nelson (15) in Fairfax county (Va) in the night of 18 june 1864.
  [*]Catlett Alfred, 20, from Richmond (Va), farmer, pvt, co E, 1st heavy Art. USCT / Colwell Alexander, 26, farmer from NC, pvt same unit / Turner Charles, 18, farmer from Charleston (SC), pvt same unit / Washington Jackson, 22, farmer from NC, pvt co K same unit / The four was shooted at Asheville (NC) 6 may 1865 for the gang rape of "a young white woman" (in OR S1 vol XLIX part II).
  [*]Brooks Dandridge, 22, driver, b.Va, sgt, Co G, 38th USCT / Jackson William, 24, laborer, b Va, cpl co G, 38th USCT / Sheppard John, 20, laborer, b Va, cpl co I, 38th USCT / hanged at Brownsville (Tx) 30 july 1865 (Sheppard 13 october) for the gang rape of Miss Eliza Harriet Woodson (14) and Mrs Fannie Crawford near Richmond (Va) during the night of 11 april 1865. The 38th USCT was transfered to Texas where the three men was executed. A fourth was never seized.

My question was in response to Jake's post where he seems to rationalize away the Union's use of rape as a means of terrorizing southern women as simply being a form of warfare, but condemning the southerners who raped their slaves.

Maybe the difference is, the southerners could do it legally.

Whether it could be done legally or not makes no difference. If you're opposed to rape then you should condemn it whether it was southern slaveowners or northern soldiers committing the act, not rationalize for one and condemn the other.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The issue of rape, Kevin, has nothing to do with the causes or the outcome of the war.

The Southern White Master Race Democracy was evil, was crushed, and the earth has been better off without it.

 

[paperview]

It was not a call to rape. Read his words about it. It was a threat and to insult the women of NO who had been violent and aggressive.
Martial Law in teh area had been declared.

But Butler was a scum. There was a reason he was called the Beast of New Orleans. he also was removed after that order.

I'm quite familiar with the General, and in fact have three original letters from him on my desk at this very moment.

edit to add: http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-10654972/General-Benjamin-Butler-the-threat.html

 

[paperview]

My question was in response to Jake's post where he seems to rationalize away the Union's use of rape as a means of terrorizing southern women as simply being a form of warfare, but condemning the southerners who raped their slaves.

Maybe the difference is, the southerners could do it legally.

Whether it could be done legally or not makes no difference. If you're opposed to rape then you should condemn it whether it was southern slaveowners or northern soldiers committing the act, not rationalize for one and condemn the other.

Who the fuck doesn't condemn rape?

We put to death soldiers found guilty of the crime.

The southerners just went on their merry way after the woman had been brutalized.
What did it matter? She was property.

Legality does matter. I don;t see you condemning those rapes Kevin.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The issue of rape, Kevin, has nothing to do with the causes or the outcome of the war.

The Southern White Master Race Democracy was evil, was crushed, and the earth has been better off without it.

No, but you see rape is evil too, and the northern troops were guilty of this.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No one has said they weren't, Kevin! But that does not excuse the South for treason and trying to break up the Union. For that is was murdered and slavery ended. Good riddance, say I, to both.