The Confederacy and States' Rights

[JW Frogen]

I had a very close friend who used to argue the South would have won the Civil War if they “only had more trains.”

When I gently posited the idea the South did not have have more trains because they were a backward, slave, agrarian economy and never fully industrialized, he would accuse me of being a racist.

We are both white men.

Fuck, I miss that guy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Sunni Man cannot manfully accept that he is wrong. Slavery was the "prime cause" of the civil war. All political and economic and social indicaors of the national pathology that led to the Civil War were symptoms of that original cause. The irrelevancy of Sunni Man's argument are highlighted by the leading participants in that great and terrible event who said slavery was the reason for the war.

 

[Sunni Man]

Sunni Man cannot manfully accept that he is wrong. Slavery was the "prime cause" of the civil war. All political and economic and social indicaors of the national pathology that led to the Civil War were symptoms of that original cause. The irrelevancy of Sunni Man's argument are highlighted by the leading participants in that great and terrible event who said slavery was the reason for the war.

Nope, Sunni Man is correct.

Heck, there were even blacks who joined the Confederacy of their own free will and fought against the North.

 

[Equat]

Sunni Man cannot manfully accept that he is wrong. Slavery was the "prime cause" of the civil war. All political and economic and social indicaors of the national pathology that led to the Civil War were symptoms of that original cause. The irrelevancy of Sunni Man's argument are highlighted by the leading participants in that great and terrible event who said slavery was the reason for the war.

Nope, Sunni Man is correct.

Heck, there were even blacks who joined the Confederacy of their own free will and fought against the North.

Slave blacks that weren't allowed to read, not free blacks. Slaves have always been used by enemies to war against their own people. The Romans uses them (e.g. Jews in 70 A.D.), the Nazis used Jews to throw Jews in ovens. Just because some Americans fought for the Nazis in WWII doesn't mean that the American people were Nazis.

 

[Equat]

Any defense of the Confederacy is a defense of slavery. Both are inhumane abominations.

Following that logic any defense of the Union is a defense of slavery.

How do you figure? The Union didn't war against Brittan nor fight a war to preserve slavery like the racist treasonist Rebs.

 

[Sunni Man]

Blacks Who Fought For the South

Most historical accounts portray Southern blacks as anxiously awaiting President Abraham Lincoln's "liberty-dispensing troops" marching south in the War Between the States. But there's more to the story; let's look at it.
Black Confederate military units, both as freemen and slaves, fought federal troops. Louisiana free blacks gave their reason for fighting in a letter written to New Orleans' Daily Delta: "The free colored population love their home, their property, their own slaves and recognize no other country than Louisiana, and are ready to shed their blood for her defense. They have no sympathy for Abolitionism; no love for the North, but they have plenty for Louisiana. They will fight for her in 1861 as they fought in 1814-15." As to bravery, one black scolded the commanding general of the state militia, saying, "Pardon me, general, but the only cowardly blood we have got in our veins is the white blood."
Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest had slaves and freemen serving in units under his command. After the war, Forrest said of the black men who served under him, "These boys stayed with me.. - and better Confederates did not live." Articles in "Black Southerners in Gray," edited by Richard Rollins, gives numerous accounts of blacks serving as fighting men or servants in every battle from Gettysburg to Vicksburg.
Professor Ed Smith, director of American Studies at American University, says Stonewall Jackson had 3,000 fully equipped black troops scattered throughout his corps at Antietam - the war's bloodiest battle. Mr. Smith calculates that between 60,000 and 93,000 blacks served the Confederacy in some capacity. They fought for the same reason they fought in previous wars and wars afterward: "to position themselves. They had to prove they were patriots in the hope the future would be better ... they hoped to be rewarded."

Blacks who fought for the South (News Article)

 

[Equat]

I have read it before.

It's about southerners fear of the northern economic interests subjugating the southern economic interests.

Don't confuse yourself by refreshing youself with the facts, then.

This is getting too tedious and obviously you aren't a student of the Civil War era.

In a nut shell:

Yes, slavery was an issue and caused tension between the north and south.

But No, slavery was NOT the main issue that led to open warfare.

Economics, as in almost every war, was the issue which caused the two sides to commence hostilities.

Good night

Economics of slavery was the reason. We agreee! Good Morning! If you're a student of the Civil War, then why can't you read the racists' reasons for seceding at Declaration of Causes of Secession ? Why are you denying what the rebs said? Admittedly, I'm not a student (disciple) of brainwashing from the Confederate cult and its culture that worships looser Lee.

 

[Equat]

Blacks Who Fought For the South

Most historical accounts portray Southern blacks as anxiously awaiting President Abraham Lincoln's "liberty-dispensing troops" marching south in the War Between the States. But there's more to the story; let's look at it.
Black Confederate military units, both as freemen and slaves, fought federal troops. Louisiana free blacks gave their reason for fighting in a letter written to New Orleans' Daily Delta: "The free colored population love their home, their property, their own slaves and recognize no other country than Louisiana, and are ready to shed their blood for her defense. They have no sympathy for Abolitionism; no love for the North, but they have plenty for Louisiana. They will fight for her in 1861 as they fought in 1814-15." As to bravery, one black scolded the commanding general of the state militia, saying, "Pardon me, general, but the only cowardly blood we have got in our veins is the white blood."
Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest had slaves and freemen serving in units under his command. After the war, Forrest said of the black men who served under him, "These boys stayed with me.. - and better Confederates did not live." Articles in "Black Southerners in Gray," edited by Richard Rollins, gives numerous accounts of blacks serving as fighting men or servants in every battle from Gettysburg to Vicksburg.
Professor Ed Smith, director of American Studies at American University, says Stonewall Jackson had 3,000 fully equipped black troops scattered throughout his corps at Antietam - the war's bloodiest battle. Mr. Smith calculates that between 60,000 and 93,000 blacks served the Confederacy in some capacity. They fought for the same reason they fought in previous wars and wars afterward: "to position themselves. They had to prove they were patriots in the hope the future would be better ... they hoped to be rewarded."

Blacks who fought for the South (News Article)

For argument sake, I'll asssume your documentation to be accurate and comment. The free blacks who fought were slave owning blacks to protect racist slavery. Yes, some blacks are racist against blacks as any abused child hates itself and tends to abuse others when grown up in the same manner in which he was abused. "Uncle Tom" blacks have always been used to socially validate racism as demonstrated in the propaganda anti-civil rights commerical of the 1960s. Jane Fonda,Tokoyo Rose, Bennedict Arnold, and all the American Germans who fought the Allies in WWII were used similarly to the way that the blacks to whom you refer. The non-free blacks were illiterate slaves, forced to fight or be whipped and killed as nations thoughout all history have employed slaves to kill their own people.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I absolutely love the idiocy of the argument that the South was justified in attacking Federal Forts because Lincoln wouldn't sell the forts.

The President of the United States has no power, no authority , no right to sell Federal Property. Never has and probably never will. Congress was not in session and could not be addressed until it was. South Carolina KNEW this as well as every Politician in the South.

They were not interested in a peaceful solution at all. That would be why they raised armies, incited revolt, seized Federal property and attacked a federal Fort. Lincoln had done NOTHING at all until the fort was attacked. NOTHING. Once the Federal Government was attacked he did the only thing he could, he called for the raising of the Militia to put down armed rebellion.

 

[paperview]

Quoting an op-ed from Walter William, a hack who was caught being PAID to fudge stories in national papers by the Bush Administration.

Quaint.

But never mind...one question for those who think the slaves were so eager to fight for the south:

Why didn't the confederate army, who cared so much for the cause, not the slavery, per say - just mobilize the 4 million slaves they had?
Even if they mobilized half of that, they would have had one of the biggest armies in the world at the time!

Why didn't they do that?

A question for you to answer.

 

[paperview]

Lincoln's Inauguration speech - March 4, 1861:

"In your hand, my fellow countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war.

The government will not assail you. You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors.
You have no oath in Heaven to destroy the government, while I shall have the most solemn one to "preserve, protect, and defend" it...We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies.
Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection.
The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave, to every living heart and hearthstone, all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."


Six weeks later, the Confederates fired on Fort Sumter in Charleston, South Carolina, and the Civil War began.

 

[Sunni Man]

Why are you denying what the rebs said? Admittedly, I'm not a student (disciple) of brainwashing from the Confederate cult and its culture that worships looser Lee.

I am not a worshiper of the Confederacy or Lee.

As a white man who is married to a black woman. I am not going to teach my children the "Civil War was fought over slavery" myth.

They will be educated to understand the finer points and nuances of the conflict.

As in most things in life; the answers aren't usually black and white. (pun intended)

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Why are you denying what the rebs said? Admittedly, I'm not a student (disciple) of brainwashing from the Confederate cult and its culture that worships looser Lee.

I am not a worshiper of the Confederacy or Lee.

As a white man who is married to a black woman. I am not going to teach my children the "Civil War was fought over slavery" myth.

They will be educated to understand the finer points and nuances of the conflict.

As in most things in life; the answers aren't usually black and white. (pun intended)

Did you bother to read the very words the Southern States wrote when they left the Union? THEY openly STATE they are leaving because of SLAVERY.

 

[Equat]

I absolutely love the idiocy of the argument that the South was justified in attacking Federal Forts because Lincoln wouldn't sell the forts.

The President of the United States has no power, no authority , no right to sell Federal Property. Never has and probably never will. Congress was not in session and could not be addressed until it was. South Carolina KNEW this as well as every Politician in the South.

They were not interested in a peaceful solution at all. That would be why they raised armies, incited revolt, seized Federal property and attacked a federal Fort. Lincoln had done NOTHING at all until the fort was attacked. NOTHING. Once the Federal Government was attacked he did the only thing he could, he called for the raising of the Militia to put down armed rebellion.

Lincoln's response to Ft. Sumter set a precedence for all futrue foreign government expectation if they were to attack a US military installation on forereign soil. Imagine what a weak nation the US would be if Lincoln were too much of a pussy cat not to respond with military force.

I, too am retired military. We didn't fight with bullets. We medics fought an unseen enemy - disease - that killed more Union soldiers than Reb bullets. We focused on hand-washing, feild sanitation, and treating the wounded (foreign & domestic). We didn't glorify war. We didn't glorify the battlefield, but rather quoted Napoleon who said that that it smelled like a sewer because soldiers' fear caused them to loose control of their bowels. We quoted Sherman who said "War is Hell you cannot refine it." Incidentally, Sherman, villanized by the Rebs, was a whole lot softer than US Generals of all other wars that killed via genocide (e.g. against the Indians, and in Vietnam), woman and children bombed at Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Berlin, etc. Perhaps if Sherman would have sold off the Reb children, woman, and soldiers as slaves or at least killed them as the US has killed non-combatants in other wars, then the Rebs would love and respect us as the Japs and the Germans (whom the US occupies militarily) do. When in Japan, the nationals never threw up their loser heroes in our faces as the rebs do. Some Japanese showered me with gifts for reasons I couldn't understand. When in Germany, my wife's father (a general who also fought as an enlisted in WWII) was treated like a king.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Sunni Man cannot manfully accept that he is wrong. Slavery was the "prime cause" of the civil war. All political and economic and social indicaors of the national pathology that led to the Civil War were symptoms of that original cause. The irrelevancy of Sunni Man's argument are highlighted by the leading participants in that great and terrible event who said slavery was the reason for the war.

It was less the 'final cause' as the issue which touched upion all the underlying issues.

Ultimately, the North needed Southern resources to sustain the economy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Why are you denying what the rebs said? Admittedly, I'm not a student (disciple) of brainwashing from the Confederate cult and its culture that worships looser Lee.

I am not a worshiper of the Confederacy or Lee.

As a white man who is married to a black woman. I am not going to teach my children the "Civil War was fought over slavery" myth.

They will be educated to understand the finer points and nuances of the conflict.

As in most things in life; the answers aren't usually black and white. (pun intended)

The facts for the cause of the conflict contradict your quaint, out-dated beliefs, Sunni Man. Your repetitive squawking does not change that.

 

[Equat]

Why are you denying what the rebs said? Admittedly, I'm not a student (disciple) of brainwashing from the Confederate cult and its culture that worships looser Lee.

I am not a worshiper of the Confederacy or Lee.

As a white man who is married to a black woman. I am not going to teach my children the "Civil War was fought over slavery" myth.

They will be educated to understand the finer points and nuances of the conflict.

As in most things in life; the answers aren't usually black and white. (pun intended)

We have something in common respecting race (according to the one-drop rule and familial experience with segregation in the Ol' South) and marriage. So, you must understand black-on-black racism and Uncle Tomism like I do. You must also understand the element that your wife has which causes her to hate being black and your own tendancy toward racism to agree with her. The remedy for such racism is not denial of the facts, but accepting the truth and finding acceptance outside of evil societies. The difference between us is that I can face the ugly truth and teach it to my children, yet know that they won't believe that they are inferior beings as taught by the "Christian" Texans and other Confederates in their Declaration of Causes of Secession.

 

[Sunni Man]

All Confederate soldiers should be treated with the same respect and honor as the Union soldiers.

Both fought for a better nation and the ideals associated with patriotism and love of country.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

I absolutely love the idiocy of the argument that the South was justified in attacking Federal Forts because Lincoln wouldn't sell the forts.

The President of the United States has no power, no authority , no right to sell Federal Property. Never has and probably never will. Congress was not in session and could not be addressed until it was. South Carolina KNEW this as well as every Politician in the South.

They were not interested in a peaceful solution at all. That would be why they raised armies, incited revolt, seized Federal property and attacked a federal Fort. Lincoln had done NOTHING at all until the fort was attacked. NOTHING. Once the Federal Government was attacked he did the only thing he could, he called for the raising of the Militia to put down armed rebellion.

I absolutely love the idiocy of the argument that the rebels were justified in attacking the King's soldiers because the Crown wouldn't hand over the land and ports....

 

[JakeStarkey]

The German soldiers of the Reich fought for their country, but I don't honor Naziism. The Confederates fought for their country, but I don't honor their despicable cause, to continue a White Race Master Democracy.