The Confederacy and States' Rights

[JakeStarkey]

You will be or do neither, Charles.

You are simply wrong. End of discussion.

 

[Charles Stucker]

You will be or do neither, Charles.

Then we agree.
I will not be a tyrant and I will not commit tyranny.

Too bad you don't want to do the same.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Charles, are you pretending to be stupid or are you actually stupid as you sound? I am not being mean. Consider the definition from Merriam-Webster, please, then answer if you wish.

1 a : slow of mind : obtuse b : given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner c : lacking intelligence or reason : brutish
2 : dulled in feeling or sensation : torpid <still stupid from the sedative>
3 : marked by or resulting from unreasoned thinking or acting : senseless <a stupid decision>
4 a : lacking interest or point <a stupid event> b : vexatious, exasperating <the stupid car won't start>

&#8212; stu·pid·ly adverb

&#8212; stu·pid·ness noun

synonyms stupid, dull, dense, crass, dumb mean lacking in power to absorb ideas or impressions. stupid implies a slow-witted or dazed state of mind that may be either congenital or temporary <stupid students just keeping the seats warm> <stupid with drink>. dull suggests a slow or sluggish mind such as results from disease, depression, or shock <monotonous work that leaves the mind dull>. dense implies a thickheaded imperviousness to ideas <too dense to take a hint>. crass suggests a grossness of mind precluding discrimination or delicacy <a crass, materialistic people>. dumb applies to an exasperating obtuseness or lack of comprehension <too dumb to figure out what's going on>.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

KevinKennedy, you are obviously wrong about slavery not being the prime cause of the war. You have been given evidence (from the states' secessions ordinances to the "cornerstone speech" by the CSA vice-president.

Kevin, you are wrong. End of discussion. Move on.

If it's the end of the discussion then why don't you move on?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Wasn't the US Supreme Court the forum to resolve disputes? Nevertheless, how would secession change the Confederate's grievance regarding the non-enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act? Would secession force the free states to return slaves? NO! If every state was sovereign, then why did the Confederates complain that Free States sovereignly chose to nullify the Fugitive Slave Act? The Confederate's own Declaration of Secession assert that Federal control over free states should be enforced. Thus, your assertion that every state is a sovereign entity is contradicted by the Confederate Declaration.

Slavery was safer in the Union than without, which leads one to believe that there were obviously other reasons other than slavery. It doesn't contradict a thing. Under the Constitution fugitive slaves were a federal issue, so one of their grievances was that the federal government wasn't doing its job.

Since you agree that the Federal government had power over states, then by such a definition, the states were not sovereign. There are always multiple reasons for war. The primary and universal one was slavery. I don’t know why you say that slavery was safer in the Union than without. If it were, then how would one conclude that such a reason supports the notion that there were other reasons?

The states had ceded certain responsibilities to the federal government, one of them being the return of fugitive slaves. That doesn't mean the states were not sovereign independent states, however. I say slavery was safer in the Union because in the Union the southern states had the Constitution and Fugitive Slave Act on their side. When they seceded the northern states were no longer under any legal basis to return fugitive slaves to the south. That would make the institution of slavery even less economical than it already was due to the south's developing economy. Prominent southerners Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee both knew this, and even opined that slavery would eventually wear itself out in the Confederacy on its own because of those very reasons. The fact that they knew slavery was safer in the Union than without means that there were other reasons other than slavery that the states seceded. I do not contend that no one felt slavery was safer out of the Union, however, because obviously they did. I simply see the facts as not supporting that position whatsoever.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Kevin, if you want to beat a dead horse, go for it.

 

[Equat]

Slavery was safer in the Union than without, which leads one to believe that there were obviously other reasons other than slavery. It doesn't contradict a thing. Under the Constitution fugitive slaves were a federal issue, so one of their grievances was that the federal government wasn't doing its job.

Since you agree that the Federal government had power over states, then by such a definition, the states were not sovereign. There are always multiple reasons for war. The primary and universal one was slavery. I don’t know why you say that slavery was safer in the Union than without. If it were, then how would one conclude that such a reason supports the notion that there were other reasons?

The states had ceded certain responsibilities to the federal government, one of them being the return of fugitive slaves. That doesn't mean the states were not sovereign independent states, however. I say slavery was safer in the Union because in the Union the southern states had the Constitution and Fugitive Slave Act on their side. When they seceded the northern states were no longer under any legal basis to return fugitive slaves to the south. That would make the institution of slavery even less economical than it already was due to the south's developing economy. Prominent southerners Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee both knew this, and even opined that slavery would eventually wear itself out in the Confederacy on its own because of those very reasons. The fact that they knew slavery was safer in the Union than without means that there were other reasons other than slavery that the states seceded. I do not contend that no one felt slavery was safer out of the Union, however, because obviously they did. I simply see the facts as not supporting that position whatsoever.

The Confederate's contentions as expliicated in their Declaration of Secession were also that the Federal Union allowed its people to exercise freedom of speach and assembly - freedoms denied to those in the slave states.

 

[Equat]

Since you agree that the Federal government had power over states, then by such a definition, the states were not sovereign.

Now you are grasping at straws. The Rill of Rights is extremely clear. Any right not specifically denied the states or reserved for the Federal government is retained by the states.
The matter is That simple.
The only people who argue against it are those who want more power for the central government at the expense of the people.
The technical term for such is 'aspiring tyrants'

I'm glad that we agree that the Federal government has power over states which the states ceded to the Federal government. Thus, the states were not sovereign.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Kevin, if you want to beat a dead horse, go for it.

This is a historical topic in the history forum. You're free to ignore this thread if it's bothering you.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The topic doesn't bother me at all. I find it interesting. What I find boring are your dead-horse tropisms.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Since you agree that the Federal government had power over states, then by such a definition, the states were not sovereign. There are always multiple reasons for war. The primary and universal one was slavery. I don’t know why you say that slavery was safer in the Union than without. If it were, then how would one conclude that such a reason supports the notion that there were other reasons?

The states had ceded certain responsibilities to the federal government, one of them being the return of fugitive slaves. That doesn't mean the states were not sovereign independent states, however. I say slavery was safer in the Union because in the Union the southern states had the Constitution and Fugitive Slave Act on their side. When they seceded the northern states were no longer under any legal basis to return fugitive slaves to the south. That would make the institution of slavery even less economical than it already was due to the south's developing economy. Prominent southerners Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee both knew this, and even opined that slavery would eventually wear itself out in the Confederacy on its own because of those very reasons. The fact that they knew slavery was safer in the Union than without means that there were other reasons other than slavery that the states seceded. I do not contend that no one felt slavery was safer out of the Union, however, because obviously they did. I simply see the facts as not supporting that position whatsoever.

The Confederate's contentions as expliicated in their Declaration of Secession were also that the Federal Union allowed its people to exercise freedom of speach and assembly - freedoms denied to those in the slave states.

What are you talking about? The Confederate Constitution explicitly protected freedom of speech and assembly.

"12. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Constitution of the Confederate States of America - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The topic doesn't bother me at all. I find it interesting. What I find boring are your dead-horse tropisms.

Then you're free to ignore me and discuss the topic as you wish.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Nope, I will keep outing your tropisms.

And despite with the Confederate Constitution stated, the South still suppressed free speech and assemblies on each issues the culture did not like, just as had for more than thirty years.

 

[Equat]

The states had ceded certain responsibilities to the federal government, one of them being the return of fugitive slaves. That doesn't mean the states were not sovereign independent states, however. I say slavery was safer in the Union because in the Union the southern states had the Constitution and Fugitive Slave Act on their side. When they seceded the northern states were no longer under any legal basis to return fugitive slaves to the south. That would make the institution of slavery even less economical than it already was due to the south's developing economy. Prominent southerners Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee both knew this, and even opined that slavery would eventually wear itself out in the Confederacy on its own because of those very reasons. The fact that they knew slavery was safer in the Union than without means that there were other reasons other than slavery that the states seceded. I do not contend that no one felt slavery was safer out of the Union, however, because obviously they did. I simply see the facts as not supporting that position whatsoever.

The Confederate's contentions as expliicated in their Declaration of Secession were also that the Federal Union allowed its people to exercise freedom of speach and assembly - freedoms denied to those in the slave states.

What are you talking about? The Confederate Constitution explicitly protected freedom of speech and assembly.

"12. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Constitution of the Confederate States of America - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

The Confederates seceded because the Federal government did not deny such rights to its people as stated in their Declaration of Secession. The Confederates also denied such freedoms (among many others) to all blacks. By culture, the society prohibited free speach. I'll provide you some additional evidence regarding court cases where people were silenced by judges to testify about white men using their slaves ("breeding wenches" and "fancy" mulato "girls") as sex slaves (whores & concubines).

What I'm talking about is in the words (in their &#8220;Declarations of Causes of Seceding States&#8221; at http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html ) of the Confederacy, who opposed Constitutional &#8220;states&#8217; rights&#8221; &#8211;the reason for the Civil War?
&#8226; Confederates oppose Freedom of speech and thought:
o &#8220;It advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.&#8221; &#8211; Mississippi
o &#8220;they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. &#8211; South Carolina
o &#8220;They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.&#8221;
&#8226; Confederates oppose freedom of the press and speech:
o &#8220;It has enlisted its press, its pulpit and its schools against us, until the whole popular mind of the North is excited and inflamed with prejudice.&#8221; - Mississippi
&#8226; Confederates oppose freedom of assembly:
o &#8220;It has made combinations and formed associations to carry out its schemes of emancipation in the States and wherever else slavery exists.&#8221; - Mississippi

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The Confederate's contentions as expliicated in their Declaration of Secession were also that the Federal Union allowed its people to exercise freedom of speach and assembly - freedoms denied to those in the slave states.

What are you talking about? The Confederate Constitution explicitly protected freedom of speech and assembly.

"12. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Constitution of the Confederate States of America - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

The Confederates seceded because the Federal government did not deny such rights to its people as stated in their Declaration of Secession. The Confederates also denied such freedoms (among many others) to all blacks. By culture, the society prohibited free speach. I'll provide you some additional evidence regarding court cases where people were silenced by judges to testify about white men using their slaves ("breeding wenches" and "fancy" mulato "girls") as sex slaves (whores & concubines).

Well if you're referring to slaves then did the north allow freedom of speech or assembly for the slaves that were in the five slave states that remained in the Union? No.

 

[paperview]

What are you talking about? The Confederate Constitution explicitly protected freedom of speech and assembly.

"12. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Constitution of the Confederate States of America

One of the great Ironies of the Confederates: They instituted Martial Law to prevent free assembly and lock down free speech... and used it to prohibit their own states
-to secede from the Confederacy.

I guess what was good for their goose, wasn't good for their gander.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

What are you talking about? The Confederate Constitution explicitly protected freedom of speech and assembly.

"12. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Constitution of the Confederate States of America

One of the great Ironies of the Confederates: They instituted Martial Law to prevent free assembly and lock down free speech... and used it to prohibit their own states
-to secede from the Confederacy.

I guess what was good for their goose, wasn't good for their gander.

As did Abraham Lincoln in the north, who had an Ohio Congressman deported to the Confederacy for speaking out against him.

As to allowing "their own states" to secede from the Confederacy, it's certainly one of the great ironies and I can't remember if it was you or somebody else that first alerted me to this historical episode. I know it was on this board at any rate where I first learned of it. It wasn't actually a state that wished to secede, however. I believe it was a county if I'm not mistaken. Of course there is a big difference between a county and a state. Counties and other local governments are creations of the states and have never been independent, unlike the states themselves which were and are independent. However, I certainly support the right of secession at any level.

 

[Equat]

What are you talking about? The Confederate Constitution explicitly protected freedom of speech and assembly.

"12. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Constitution of the Confederate States of America - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

The Confederates seceded because the Federal government did not deny such rights to its people as stated in their Declaration of Secession. The Confederates also denied such freedoms (among many others) to all blacks. By culture, the society prohibited free speach. I'll provide you some additional evidence regarding court cases where people were silenced by judges to testify about white men using their slaves ("breeding wenches" and "fancy" mulato "girls") as sex slaves (whores & concubines).

Well if you're referring to slaves then did the north allow freedom of speech or assembly for the slaves that were in the five slave states that remained in the Union? No.

The Confederates in their Declaration of secession were not indicting the slave states. The Confederates were indicting the Union.

 

[JakeStarkey]

What are you talking about? The Confederate Constitution explicitly protected freedom of speech and assembly.

"12. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Constitution of the Confederate States of America

One of the great Ironies of the Confederates: They instituted Martial Law to prevent free assembly and lock down free speech... and used it to prohibit their own states
-to secede from the Confederacy.

I guess what was good for their goose, wasn't good for their gander.

As did Abraham Lincoln in the north, who had an Ohio Congressman deported to the Confederacy for speaking out against him.

As to allowing "their own states" to secede from the Confederacy, it's certainly one of the great ironies and I can't remember if it was you or somebody else that first alerted me to this historical episode. I know it was on this board at any rate where I first learned of it. It wasn't actually a state that wished to secede, however. I believe it was a county if I'm not mistaken. Of course there is a big difference between a county and a state. Counties and other local governments are creations of the states and have never been independent, unlike the states themselves which were and are independent. However, I certainly support the right of secession at any level.

Your argument ultima is blown out of the water by your contention further above, KevinKennedy. No, the South was wrong in seceding, and even if they were right, one man said "no!" and that was the end of an independent South.

In other words, an independent South could not happen because the Southern whites were simply not worthy of making it happen.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The Confederates seceded because the Federal government did not deny such rights to its people as stated in their Declaration of Secession. The Confederates also denied such freedoms (among many others) to all blacks. By culture, the society prohibited free speach. I'll provide you some additional evidence regarding court cases where people were silenced by judges to testify about white men using their slaves ("breeding wenches" and "fancy" mulato "girls") as sex slaves (whores & concubines).

Well if you're referring to slaves then did the north allow freedom of speech or assembly for the slaves that were in the five slave states that remained in the Union? No.

The Confederates in their Declaration of secession were not indicting the slave states. The Confederates were indicting the Union.

And what does that have to do with what I said?