The global warming thread. Is it for real?

[westwall]

Funny how you guys have avoided this post like the plague...

The evidence is clear. The AGW "movement" is about the control of people (and the economic enslavement of them as well) and nothing else.

At this point I still have my doubts regarding the extent in whiich global warming is caused by man ( 30%-70% ? who knows.)

But I can't agree with your statement. If you put solar panels in your roof and a solar heater you become less dependent on the government and the big corporations which may feel tempted to increase the price of electricity arbitrarily.

The same happens if you get a diesel or a hybrid car, you become less dependent on oil companies an the tax asociated with gasoline.

How can such a measure be about "control of the people"?

Of course, solar is not an option for everyone. Someone living in Seatle might find a hard time harvesting energy from the sun , but someone living in the southwest will surely recover the investment quickly enough.

We already have enough "control of the people" with the American government storing every email and social network profile for their own purposes. I certainly don't think a little bit of alternative energy production can make things worse.

Part two of my post was where the rich people pushing these "green" energy systems get to relieve you of your money. Please note I've had a solar system for nearly 30 years now and it is OK as an emergency backup system, but it could never run my house on its own.

 

[PMZ]

Funny how you guys have avoided this post like the plague...

The evidence is clear. The AGW "movement" is about the control of people (and the economic enslavement of them as well) and nothing else.

At this point I still have my doubts regarding the extent in whiich global warming is caused by man ( 30%-70% ? who knows.)

But I can't agree with your statement. If you put solar panels in your roof and a solar heater you become less dependent on the government and the big corporations which may feel tempted to increase the price of electricity arbitrarily.

The same happens if you get a diesel or a hybrid car, you become less dependent on oil companies an the tax asociated with gasoline.

How can such a measure be about "control of the people"?

Of course, solar is not an option for everyone. Someone living in Seatle might find a hard time harvesting energy from the sun , but someone living in the southwest will surely recover the investment quickly enough.

We already have enough "control of the people" with the American government storing every email and social network profile for their own purposes. I certainly don't think a little bit of alternative energy production can make things worse.

To the extent that it requires adaptation by mankind, it's immaterial what the cause is.

And it is all "natural". At worst man's only role is in harvesting the energy nature stored in fossil fuels, and restoring the natural pre Carboniferous climate.

The role of science is not to indict mankind, but rather predict the future so that we create some lead time to do what has to be done.

The big government boogieman that's advertised 24/7/365 on the media is meant for "control of the people" and is obviously effectively doing so.

Capable government is a natural consequence of too many people, too much pressure on limited resources, and technology.

The real danger is too weak government not able to organize what needs to be done for mankind to have much of a future.

 

[westwall]

Funny how you guys have avoided this post like the plague...

The evidence is clear. The AGW "movement" is about the control of people (and the economic enslavement of them as well) and nothing else.

At this point I still have my doubts regarding the extent in whiich global warming is caused by man ( 30%-70% ? who knows.)

But I can't agree with your statement. If you put solar panels in your roof and a solar heater you become less dependent on the government and the big corporations which may feel tempted to increase the price of electricity arbitrarily.

The same happens if you get a diesel or a hybrid car, you become less dependent on oil companies an the tax asociated with gasoline.

How can such a measure be about "control of the people"?

Of course, solar is not an option for everyone. Someone living in Seatle might find a hard time harvesting energy from the sun , but someone living in the southwest will surely recover the investment quickly enough.

We already have enough "control of the people" with the American government storing every email and social network profile for their own purposes. I certainly don't think a little bit of alternative energy production can make things worse.

To the extent that it requires adaptation by mankind, it's immaterial what the cause is.

And it is all "natural". At worst man's only role is in harvesting the energy nature stored in fossil fuels, and restoring the natural pre Carboniferous climate.

The role of science is not to indict mankind, but rather predict the future so that we create some lead time to do what has to be done.

The big government boogieman that's advertised 24/7/365 on the media is meant for "control of the people" and is obviously effectively doing so.

Capable government is a natural consequence of too many people, too much pressure on limited resources, and technology.

The real danger is too weak government not able to organize what needs to be done for mankind to have much of a future.

Show us ONE centralized authoritarian governmental system that has ever worked.

 

[PMZ]

At this point I still have my doubts regarding the extent in whiich global warming is caused by man ( 30%-70% ? who knows.)

But I can't agree with your statement. If you put solar panels in your roof and a solar heater you become less dependent on the government and the big corporations which may feel tempted to increase the price of electricity arbitrarily.

The same happens if you get a diesel or a hybrid car, you become less dependent on oil companies an the tax asociated with gasoline.

How can such a measure be about "control of the people"?

Of course, solar is not an option for everyone. Someone living in Seatle might find a hard time harvesting energy from the sun , but someone living in the southwest will surely recover the investment quickly enough.

We already have enough "control of the people" with the American government storing every email and social network profile for their own purposes. I certainly don't think a little bit of alternative energy production can make things worse.

To the extent that it requires adaptation by mankind, it's immaterial what the cause is.

And it is all "natural". At worst man's only role is in harvesting the energy nature stored in fossil fuels, and restoring the natural pre Carboniferous climate.

The role of science is not to indict mankind, but rather predict the future so that we create some lead time to do what has to be done.

The big government boogieman that's advertised 24/7/365 on the media is meant for "control of the people" and is obviously effectively doing so.

Capable government is a natural consequence of too many people, too much pressure on limited resources, and technology.

The real danger is too weak government not able to organize what needs to be done for mankind to have much of a future.

Show us ONE centralized authoritarian governmental system that has ever worked.

There are several in the world today that haven't failed yet.

Show us one democracy that has failed.

 

[PMZ]

Funny how you guys have avoided this post like the plague...

The evidence is clear. The AGW "movement" is about the control of people (and the economic enslavement of them as well) and nothing else.

At this point I still have my doubts regarding the extent in whiich global warming is caused by man ( 30%-70% ? who knows.)

But I can't agree with your statement. If you put solar panels in your roof and a solar heater you become less dependent on the government and the big corporations which may feel tempted to increase the price of electricity arbitrarily.

The same happens if you get a diesel or a hybrid car, you become less dependent on oil companies an the tax asociated with gasoline.

How can such a measure be about "control of the people"?

Of course, solar is not an option for everyone. Someone living in Seatle might find a hard time harvesting energy from the sun , but someone living in the southwest will surely recover the investment quickly enough.

We already have enough "control of the people" with the American government storing every email and social network profile for their own purposes. I certainly don't think a little bit of alternative energy production can make things worse.

"Of course, solar is not an option for everyone"

There has never been one answer for everyone. When I'm in NY most of our power is hydro from Niagra Falls, along with some wind and nuclear. When in FL it's primarily from a gas fired co-generation plant with some PV solar and nuclear thrown in.

In California it's much more concentrated solar and wind.

My Prius keeps me mostly free of big oil but I also have a mini-van for heavy lifting.

I don't A/C FL much in the summer or heat NY much in the winter.

One size never has or will fit all.

 

[westwall]

To the extent that it requires adaptation by mankind, it's immaterial what the cause is.

And it is all "natural". At worst man's only role is in harvesting the energy nature stored in fossil fuels, and restoring the natural pre Carboniferous climate.

The role of science is not to indict mankind, but rather predict the future so that we create some lead time to do what has to be done.

The big government boogieman that's advertised 24/7/365 on the media is meant for "control of the people" and is obviously effectively doing so.

Capable government is a natural consequence of too many people, too much pressure on limited resources, and technology.

The real danger is too weak government not able to organize what needs to be done for mankind to have much of a future.

Show us ONE centralized authoritarian governmental system that has ever worked.

There are several in the world today that haven't failed yet.

Show us one democracy that has failed.

Name them.

 

[PMZ]

Show us ONE centralized authoritarian governmental system that has ever worked.

There are several in the world today that haven't failed yet.

Show us one democracy that has failed.

Name them.

North Korea for one. What democracies have failed?

 

[CultureCitizen]

Funny how you guys have avoided this post like the plague...

The evidence is clear. The AGW "movement" is about the control of people (and the economic enslavement of them as well) and nothing else.

At this point I still have my doubts regarding the extent in whiich global warming is caused by man ( 30%-70% ? who knows.)

But I can't agree with your statement. If you put solar panels in your roof and a solar heater you become less dependent on the government and the big corporations which may feel tempted to increase the price of electricity arbitrarily.

The same happens if you get a diesel or a hybrid car, you become less dependent on oil companies an the tax asociated with gasoline.

How can such a measure be about "control of the people"?

Of course, solar is not an option for everyone. Someone living in Seatle might find a hard time harvesting energy from the sun , but someone living in the southwest will surely recover the investment quickly enough.

We already have enough "control of the people" with the American government storing every email and social network profile for their own purposes. I certainly don't think a little bit of alternative energy production can make things worse.

You mean the government that gives you a tax deduction based on things like adding solar panels to your home?

And of course you mean the oil corporations who also make diesel? And again the big government that is giving out tax deductions on hybrid cars as well...

Whether we like it or not, fossil fuels are what runs the world. SO far nothing has been a viable alternative. In the future who knows,but right now you can no sooner avoid fossil fuel use,or the big corporations that control it, or the big government which you will have to depend on for more public transportation the more you try and avoid driving your car.

In california with tier3 consumption the cost is about 30 cents per kwh.
That's way above the cost for solar . So even without tax deduction you are better off with solar than connected to the grid ( yes you can't be off grid the whole time , but in the mid term you will save money ).

Above that you have the fact that you can generate your OWN energy. How does that make you more dependent? I am franky puzzled.

Yes of course oil companies produce diesel but you will need less diesel than gasoline.
This hybrid yields 48 mpg in cities
Toyota Prius Research All Models and Prices - MSN Autos

And this amazing diesel car yields 88 MPG
HYUNDAI i20 1.1 CRDi Blue 75PS 5dr - CO2 84g/km

So yes you are still less dependent on oil companies with a diesel than with a regular gasoline car... kind of obvious.

 

[CultureCitizen]

Funny how you guys have avoided this post like the plague...

The evidence is clear. The AGW "movement" is about the control of people (and the economic enslavement of them as well) and nothing else.

At this point I still have my doubts regarding the extent in whiich global warming is caused by man ( 30%-70% ? who knows.)

But I can't agree with your statement. If you put solar panels in your roof and a solar heater you become less dependent on the government and the big corporations which may feel tempted to increase the price of electricity arbitrarily.

The same happens if you get a diesel or a hybrid car, you become less dependent on oil companies an the tax asociated with gasoline.

How can such a measure be about "control of the people"?

Of course, solar is not an option for everyone. Someone living in Seatle might find a hard time harvesting energy from the sun , but someone living in the southwest will surely recover the investment quickly enough.

We already have enough "control of the people" with the American government storing every email and social network profile for their own purposes. I certainly don't think a little bit of alternative energy production can make things worse.

Part two of my post was where the rich people pushing these "green" energy systems get to relieve you of your money. Please note I've had a solar system for nearly 30 years now and it is OK as an emergency backup system, but it could never run my house on its own.

Yes of course , big companies will allways want a share on an area where there is proffit.
But then the same happens with big oil and big pharma companies.
This is no different.
My point here is that you as a solar panel owner are at least more independent, not more dependent .
I think no tax deduction is needed. Cheap fuels are being depleted and the shift to solar or wind will come naturally as the fuel prices continue to go up

Finally the main reson to shift to this technologies should be ecology and health and not GW.

Pic from China:

 

[westwall]

There are several in the world today that haven't failed yet.

Show us one democracy that has failed.

Name them.

North Korea for one. What democracies have failed?

You truly are batshit crazy aren't you. A country who's citizens are resorting to cannibalism is far from a successful one. Just wait till the board finds out this little post of yours!lmao

"New reports of starving North Koreans resorting to cannibalism come amid renewed tensions between Pyongyang and Washington

A North Korean man suffering starvation was put to death after it was learned he ate two of his children, a new report claims. While the man’s wife was away, he reportedly killed his eldest daughter and then his son after he had witnessed the murder. ‘We have meat,’ he told his wife on her return."


Read more: New reports of starving North Koreans resorting to cannibalism come amid renewed tensions between Pyongyang and Washington - NY Daily News

SEOUL, South Korea — Freighters carrying aid shipments of rice and instant noodles are being sent to North Korea, the first food aid the South Korean government has sent to the North since President Lee Myung-bak was elected here in early 2008.


U.S. envoys are finalizing arrangements for the first U.S. government food aid shipment to impoverished North Korea in three years.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/26/world/asia/26korea.html?_r=0


U.S. finalizing North Korea food shipment in China - World - CBC News

 

[westwall]

At this point I still have my doubts regarding the extent in whiich global warming is caused by man ( 30%-70% ? who knows.)

But I can't agree with your statement. If you put solar panels in your roof and a solar heater you become less dependent on the government and the big corporations which may feel tempted to increase the price of electricity arbitrarily.

The same happens if you get a diesel or a hybrid car, you become less dependent on oil companies an the tax asociated with gasoline.

How can such a measure be about "control of the people"?

Of course, solar is not an option for everyone. Someone living in Seatle might find a hard time harvesting energy from the sun , but someone living in the southwest will surely recover the investment quickly enough.

We already have enough "control of the people" with the American government storing every email and social network profile for their own purposes. I certainly don't think a little bit of alternative energy production can make things worse.

Part two of my post was where the rich people pushing these "green" energy systems get to relieve you of your money. Please note I've had a solar system for nearly 30 years now and it is OK as an emergency backup system, but it could never run my house on its own.

Yes of course , big companies will allways want a share on an area where there is proffit.
But then the same happens with big oil and big pharma companies.
This is no different.
My point here is that you as a solar panel owner are at least more independent, not more dependent .
I think no tax deduction is needed. Cheap fuels are being depleted and the shift to solar or wind will come naturally as the fuel prices continue to go up

Finally the main reson to shift to this technologies should be ecology and health and not GW.

Pic from China:

Most of those plumes are steam. There are certainly particulates in there as well, but the VAST majority of that picture is nothing but water. Scare photo's like that fail on multiple points. You'll have to do better.

 

[CultureCitizen]

Most of those plumes are steam. There are certainly particulates in there as well, but the VAST majority of that picture is nothing but water. Scare photo's like that fail on multiple points. You'll have to do better.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/30/w...tal-degradation-in-china-is-growing.html?_r=0

Air Pollution Linked to 1.2 Million Premature Deaths in China
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/02/w...on-linked-to-1-2-million-deaths-in-china.html

Scary enough ?

Luckily the US has had a shift from coal to gas in recent years which has effectively reduced the overall US pollution.

 

[bripat9643]

To the extent that it requires adaptation by mankind, it's immaterial what the cause is.

And it is all "natural". At worst man's only role is in harvesting the energy nature stored in fossil fuels, and restoring the natural pre Carboniferous climate.

The role of science is not to indict mankind, but rather predict the future so that we create some lead time to do what has to be done.

The big government boogieman that's advertised 24/7/365 on the media is meant for "control of the people" and is obviously effectively doing so.

Capable government is a natural consequence of too many people, too much pressure on limited resources, and technology.

The real danger is too weak government not able to organize what needs to be done for mankind to have much of a future.

Show us ONE centralized authoritarian governmental system that has ever worked.

There are several in the world today that haven't failed yet.

Show us one democracy that has failed.

Weimer Republic
French republic
Zimbabwe
Most African countries

 

[itfitzme]

Show us ONE centralized authoritarian governmental system that has ever worked.

There are several in the world today that haven't failed yet.

Show us one democracy that has failed.

Weimer Republic
French republic
Zimbabwe
Most African countries

Egypt was supposedly democratic. Is the recent event a kinda form democracy transition between leaders?

What is missing from these democracies that yields failure? Were they really democratic in the full sense that we are use to?

 

[gslack]

At this point I still have my doubts regarding the extent in whiich global warming is caused by man ( 30%-70% ? who knows.)

But I can't agree with your statement. If you put solar panels in your roof and a solar heater you become less dependent on the government and the big corporations which may feel tempted to increase the price of electricity arbitrarily.

The same happens if you get a diesel or a hybrid car, you become less dependent on oil companies an the tax asociated with gasoline.

How can such a measure be about "control of the people"?

Of course, solar is not an option for everyone. Someone living in Seatle might find a hard time harvesting energy from the sun , but someone living in the southwest will surely recover the investment quickly enough.

We already have enough "control of the people" with the American government storing every email and social network profile for their own purposes. I certainly don't think a little bit of alternative energy production can make things worse.

You mean the government that gives you a tax deduction based on things like adding solar panels to your home?

And of course you mean the oil corporations who also make diesel? And again the big government that is giving out tax deductions on hybrid cars as well...

Whether we like it or not, fossil fuels are what runs the world. SO far nothing has been a viable alternative. In the future who knows,but right now you can no sooner avoid fossil fuel use,or the big corporations that control it, or the big government which you will have to depend on for more public transportation the more you try and avoid driving your car.

In california with tier3 consumption the cost is about 30 cents per kwh.
That's way above the cost for solar . So even without tax deduction you are better off with solar than connected to the grid ( yes you can't be off grid the whole time , but in the mid term you will save money ).

Above that you have the fact that you can generate your OWN energy. How does that make you more dependent? I am franky puzzled.

Yes of course oil companies produce diesel but you will need less diesel than gasoline.
This hybrid yields 48 mpg in cities
Toyota Prius Research All Models and Prices - MSN Autos

And this amazing diesel car yields 88 MPG
HYUNDAI i20 1.1 CRDi Blue 75PS 5dr - CO2 84g/km

So yes you are still less dependent on oil companies with a diesel than with a regular gasoline car... kind of obvious.

So then you are stating a personal solar panel system is a viable alternative to conventional grid power? Really? And you want to explain how that's going to be possible with the future heading towards plug-in cars?

And you just missed the point. Diesel made by the same people your previously said you could get independence from by going diesel or a hybrid... A hybrid still uses petroleum products...

You're not advocating independence, you're advocating cutting back a bit.Not exactly the same thing is it...

And as I said before, the pipedream, idealistic fantasies aren't going to cut it and the dismissing of reality doesn't help your cause..

 

[PMZ]

There are several in the world today that haven't failed yet.

Show us one democracy that has failed.

I would have said that it was obvious that "failed", in this context, means been replaced, by the governed, with something better. A violent takeover of any government by another party or leader or philosophy doesn't mean the the original government failed, it merely means that it wasn't robust enough to maintain authority.

Thus the North Korean government still has power over North Korea. And there have been democratic governments overthrown.

And this is why the conservative vision of a weak US government makes no sense to realists.

What lasts are strong governments hired and fired by the people in a democratic way. The control of strong government of, by, and for, the people. Not the weakening of government to the point where it can be overthrown.

 

[itfitzme]

There are several in the world today that haven't failed yet.

Show us one democracy that has failed.

I would have said that it was obvious that "failed", in this context, means been replaced, by the governed, with something better. A violent takeover of any government by another party or leader or philosophy doesn't mean the the original government failed, it merely means that it wasn't robust enough to maintain authority.

Thus the North Korean government still has power over North Korea. And there have been democratic governments overthrown.

And this is why the conservative vision of a weak US government makes no sense to realists.

What lasts are strong governments hired and fired by the people in a democratic way. The control of strong government of, by, and for, the people. Not the weakening of government to the point where it can be overthrown.

Or drowned in a bathtub.

 

[itfitzme]

There are several in the world today that haven't failed yet.

Show us one democracy that has failed.

I would have said that it was obvious that "failed", in this context, means been replaced, by the governed, with something better. A violent takeover of any government by another party or leader or philosophy doesn't mean the the original government failed, it merely means that it wasn't robust enough to maintain authority.

Thus the North Korean government still has power over North Korea. And there have been democratic governments overthrown.

And this is why the conservative vision of a weak US government makes no sense to realists.

What lasts are strong governments hired and fired by the people in a democratic way. The control of strong government of, by, and for, the people. Not the weakening of government to the point where it can be overthrown.

The Seven Samuri is a great movie.

Seven Samurai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is obvious that a farmer is less efficient if he must both farm and defend his land. The first greatest increase to efficiency has been division of labor. Defence and farming are a division of labor issue that increases efficiency. And this extends to division of power, apparently, in some fashion.

I find the Egypt curious. Apparently they have a division of power between the elected government and the military. We will see how this plays out. It seems to put a twist to how a democratic state is maintained.

It has to be supported by law and law is enforced. US democracy exists because it is written into the Constitution which creates the government that enforces it. Drowning the US govt is drowning the Constitution, democracy and the free market. They don't exist without the govt.

 

[itfitzme]

"Just wait till the board finds out this little post of yours!"

Well, now that provides some insight into a personality. What age is that?

 

[Pete7469]

It's complete bullshit.

The climate has changed so dramatically over the course of millions of years, and there weren't apes driving SUV's. Whatever effect human endeavors have on the climate are infinitesimal if there is any effect at all.

Pollution and toxic waste are a separate issue, and no sane person thinks it has no relevance, but the whole global warming cult is being used to reduce the quality of life for the most prosperous people.