The Logical, Rational, and Reasonable Debate About Religion: No Insults Allowed Threa

[RodISHI]

One more thing. Christ purpose? To save that which is lost. Since God as a spirit reaches out through His children to save that which is lost, then it is still up to the one who is lost to accept that helping hand. That was the purpose for which Jesus came into this world.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

You asked questions and I answered them. You can accept those or not. I have no need to debate you on this issue.

Yes, I understand that you have no need to debate me on this issue, but you must have at least wanted to because you posted on this thread and responded to my posts.

I don't accept unsupported answers from the Bible. If you want to debate whether the Bible is true or not, that's great and I'm totally open to that, but this thread is meant to conduct a debate using logic, critical analysis, and rational reasoning. Quoting the Bible is fine, but its not been accepted as factually true so please refrain from admitting it as supporting evidence unless you can support with evidence that the Bible is true. That's why your argument, at least in this thread, isn't viable.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

One more thing. Christ purpose? To save that which is lost. Since God as a spirit reaches out through His children to save that which is lost, then it is still up to the one who is lost to accept that helping hand. That was the purpose for which Jesus came into this world.

Right, but as you said some people simply believe and others do not, and since I simply don't believe, and it isn't a matter of choice, then why was Jesus sacrificed? Just for those who DO simply believe in God? Isn't that unnecessary?

 

[RodISHI]

Isn't that unnecessary?

Obviously not. It was all preplanned from the beginning of time. God is not the one making second guesses on what He created.

 

[Big Black Dog]

[About faith: why would I choose to have faith in God? Why would I choose the Christian god over the Muslim or Hindu, or any other gods? And how does one choose to have faith?
/QUOTE]

You must open up your heart to the possibility of God. You must open up your mind that God could exist. As long as you take the cold hard stance that there is no God, you will never believe. Belief in any particular religious sect is a matter of personal choice. There are those that would strongly disagree but as my Grandmother used to say, there's room in God's heaven for all believers, no matter what their faith is. You seem to be seeking an answer that I am not able to give you. I know in my personal life, I can't imagine a day without prayer, or not believing in God. It just doesn't make any sense to me to not believe but I can understand your doubts and possible fears. The funny thing about religion. Most people think it's trendy to not believe in God or religion. They are fearful of letting others know that they believe in God. Nobody likes to be mocked but Jesus said that many will scorn you because of my name... I have the courage to tell others how I feel. It doesn't bother me what otherrs think. I'm that secure in myself and my beliefs.

 

[Tinktink]

[About faith: why would I choose to have faith in God? Why would I choose the Christian god over the Muslim or Hindu, or any other gods? And how does one choose to have faith?
/QUOTE]

You must open up your heart to the possibility of God. You must open up your mind that God could exist. As long as you take the cold hard stance that there is no God, you will never believe. Belief in any particular religious sect is a matter of personal choice. There are those that would strongly disagree but as my Grandmother used to say, there's room in God's heaven for all believers, no matter what their faith is. You seem to be seeking an answer that I am not able to give you. I know in my personal life, I can't imagine a day without prayer, or not believing in God. It just doesn't make any sense to me to not believe but I can understand your doubts and possible fears. The funny thing about religion. Most people think it's trendy to not believe in God or religion. They are fearful of letting others know that they believe in God. Nobody likes to be mocked but Jesus said that many will scorn you because of my name... I have the courage to tell others how I feel. It doesn't bother me what otherrs think. I'm that secure in myself and my beliefs.

You should distinquish your comments between religious belief or just belief. I don't believe in God, and I certainly don't believe it is because it is a trend. What I don't understand is how you can call someones lack of belief as doubts or fears. Unless you are projecting yours on them. Just because someone doesn't share your faith in your God, doesn't mean they are doubtful or fearful to admit they believe in God. It is quite possible they simply don't.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

You must open up your heart to the possibility of God. You must open up your mind that God could exist. As long as you take the cold hard stance that there is no God, you will never believe.

I think that this is a misunderstanding between believers and nonbelievers. I don't cling to the position that there is no God. I'm an agnostic and my perspective is this: There is no evidence supporting that the Universe was created and is governed by a supreme being or higher power. It is possible, but until there is evidence supporting the claim that there is a higher power, I will remain unbelieving - not disbelieving. There is no evidence supporting that human being can fly, so I will not live my life as though I can until such time there is proof. Otherwise, when I step off into space from my 2nd story window to fly to work... Now, I'm not saying there is no possibility that God exists, I'm just saying that there isn't any proof. I don't dogmatically believe that Darwin's theories are right because if a hypothetical new discovery were to disprove Natural Selection, I would revise my opinion. However, there is A LOT of evidece supporting Darwin's theories, so I accept them as a framework in which to think and operate. However, if there was no supporting evidence of his theories, I wouldn't believe or accept them at all.

Belief in any particular religious sect is a matter of personal choice.

Yes, but how would I know my choice is the RIGHT choice?

There are those that would strongly disagree but as my Grandmother used to say, there's room in God's heaven for all believers, no matter what their faith is. You seem to be seeking an answer that I am not able to give you. I know in my personal life, I can't imagine a day without prayer, or not believing in God. It just doesn't make any sense to me to not believe but I can understand your doubts and possible fears. The funny thing about religion. Most people think it's trendy to not believe in God or religion.

Most people believe in a higher power.

They are fearful of letting others know that they believe in God. Nobody likes to be mocked but Jesus said that many will scorn you because of my name... I have the courage to tell others how I feel. It doesn't bother me what otherrs think. I'm that secure in myself and my beliefs.

I would really like to share in those beliefs, but I can't. I CAN NOT believe in something without proof or being convinced by experience and so far neither has appeared or happened. It would be like believing in Santa Claus just because I wanted to.

 

[Al Gunn]

What makes no sense to me is why god would make humans, of which some of them get lost. He screw up?
And if he gave humans free will (well, at least the men), how can I be lost if I'm exercising my free will to not believe?

 

[sidneyworld]

Colorado,

How do you know with complete certainty that some you believe loves you, actually does love you? Now really think about that? If you do not have scientific proof, which is literally impossible in determining the existence of their "presumed" genuine love, then is it plausiible to simply accept such a notion, by your reasoning?

Anne Marie

 

[RodISHI]

What makes no sense to me is why god would make humans, of which some of them get lost. He screw up?
And if he gave humans free will (well, at least the men), how can I be lost if I'm exercising my free will to not believe?

Do you have children?

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Colorado,

How do you know with complete certainty that some you believe loves you, actually does love you? Now really think about that? If you do not have scientific proof, which is literally impossible in determining the existence of their "presumed" genuine love, then is it plausiible to simply accept such a notion, by your reasoning?

Anne Marie

Ah, but I have experienced my own love and witnessed the evidence of another's love by their affection, their understanding, their acceptance, and their sacrifices for me.

And what is love? Is it a magical thing, or a chemical and psychological reaction in a human being's mind? If its chemical and psychological, then yes, there is scientific proof.

BBC NEWS | Health | Love like a drug, scientists say

Scientists discover true love - Times Online

Google if you'd like to know more!

 

[RodISHI]

You asked questions and I answered them. You can accept those or not. I have no need to debate you on this issue.

Yes, I understand that you have no need to debate me on this issue, but you must have at least wanted to because you posted on this thread and responded to my posts.

I don't accept unsupported answers from the Bible. If you want to debate whether the Bible is true or not, that's great and I'm totally open to that, but this thread is meant to conduct a debate using logic, critical analysis, and rational reasoning. Quoting the Bible is fine, but its not been accepted as factually true so please refrain from admitting it as supporting evidence unless you can support with evidence that the Bible is true. That's why your argument, at least in this thread, isn't viable.

More like I see you reaching out to try to understand, sometimes in anger and some time not. Just wanted to try to help. If I choose to debate someone on any issue you'll know it.

 

[sidneyworld]

Colorado,

Ah, but I have experienced my own love and witnessed the evidence of another's love by their affection, their understanding, their acceptance, and their sacrifices for me.

Deception covers all these things by the best masters. So does the devil. He's the ultimate master. He is pure evil cloaked in Heaven's light. Many folks have been fooled by others utilizing all these components wrapped in a beautiful package!

More importantly, my analogy involves pure love. Not the very physical human desire to procreate, whether or not it is intended to create life, or to simply give in to the desire. Love is not a physical desire. Attraction and Lust are and all life has that matrix of inner bio physical complexities involving sex and attraction to ensure the survival and continuance of their species.

Anne Marie

 

[Coloradomtnman]

More like I see you reaching out to try to understand, sometimes in anger and some time not. Just wanted to try to help. If I choose to debate someone on any issue you'll know it.

Sometimes I wish I believed in God. I look for reasons to, but never come up with any. Good reasons, sound reasons, that is. Sure, there are emotional reasons, but I need physical evidence. I need logical reasons. If the Universe was created by a supreme being solely for human beings, and human beings were created by that higher power for a reason, and everything was anthropocentric and life had meaning, that would be a huge comfort for me. But if that is so, why does this Creator hide? Why does it seem that the Universe is a big, cold (or extremely hot), empty, hostile place and human beings just barely survive on one incredibly, unbelievably small blue speck? Why does it seem that life isn't fair, very pleasant (there are great moments, but lots of not great ones, too) where people suffer and die horrible everyday? Why are human beings so similar to primates genetically and behaviorally? Why are there so many different religions if only one of them is the true one? Why, if God is so loving and merciful, does he insist on sending people to Hell when those people, like me, can't just choose to believe. Avoiding a mythical punishment is not incentive enough for me to TRULY believe. Right? Isn't that called Fire Insurance or After-Life Insurance? Why have there been so many people killed and tortured because of religion? Why do religious people discriminate and judge those who don't fit in with their dogma i.e. homosexuals? I know homosexuals and they're just like everybody else except in one way: they are sexually attracted to those of the same sex. That's it!

As a kid I never believed in God. I grew up in SWern Idaho which is the Bible belt of the West. I was told I'd burn in Hell if I didn't believe. I was discriminated against by parents who didn't want their children to play with me or their daughters dating me (one Mormon girl was sent off to live with her grandparents because her parents thought I would turn her into a devil worshipper). I was sent to church for years, with my grandparents, my parents were Catholics for a while, and even my friends attended church. I was regarded with disdain or without comprehension or as untrustworthy because how could I have morals if I didn't believe in God?

Needless to say, I'm a little bitter. I don't appreciate the self-righteousness, the judgementalism, the arbitrary rules, the pushiness of evangelicals, nor the discrimination of people who aren't Christian. I've actually got a lot better about it. I understand why people have faith. I have faith now, because of people like them, its just my faith isn't in a religious sense, but in humanity. I have faith in myself. I have to believe something, but I can believe in humankind (as difficult as it is). I have hope that we can avoid killing ourselves off and take the reigns of our own racial destiny. Not much, but some.

If along this journey, God appears for me in whatever way, then I'll have that too. But until He does, I won't believe in something just because I want to, but because I have no choice.

 

[Coloradomtnman]

Deception covers all these things by the best masters. So does the devil. He's the ultimate master. He is pure evil cloaked in Heaven's light. Many folks have been fooled by others utilizing all these components wrapped in a beautiful package!

Yes, well, my love wasn't false and if you are implying that my girlfriend of two years is lying when she tells me she loves me, and when she SHOWS me she loves me when it doesn't benefit her in anyway (because I'm more of a pain in the ass cycnic than I am a pleasant optimistic person to be around) than I am afraid that I am not open to that line or argument. Nor will I accept that when it is applied to my father, my family, or my friends whom are the best people I know and none of them, and I mean NONE of them are Christians. This is that self-righteousness that I can't stand from Christians (if you're not a Christian then you don't know true love). Don't judge me and don't judge my loved ones.

More importantly, my analogy involves pure love. Not the very physical human desire to procreate, whether or not it is intended to create life, or to simply give in to the desire. Love is not a physical desire. Attraction and Lust are and all life has that matrix of inner bio physical complexities involving sex and attraction to ensure the survival and continuance of their species. Anne Marie

I ain't talkin' about lust or sexual desire. I'm talking about selfless love. I would die to save my girlfriend. Tell me that isn't pure love, and I'll tell you this conversation is pointless and done.

 

[Big Black Dog]

You should distinquish your comments between religious belief or just belief. I don't believe in God, and I certainly don't believe it is because it is a trend. What I don't understand is how you can call someones lack of belief as doubts or fears. Unless you are projecting yours on them. Just because someone doesn't share your faith in your God, doesn't mean they are doubtful or fearful to admit they believe in God. It is quite possible they simply don't.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear on what I was trying to say. I do that alot and my wife will certainly agree with that... No, I have no doubts and fears about my belief in God. I fully understand how some people will not believe simply because God is not somebody they can call up on the phone, or touch, or see on the nightly news. Nobody alive today has ever seen God, or Jesus and because of that, it's pretty hard to sell somebody on the fact that there is a God. That is why faith is so important in any religion and not just mine. You have to have faith that God exists or you will never believe. I read you wrong when I mentioned doubts and fears concerning God and religion in general. Lots of people have doubts and fears in that area. If I mislabeled you, I am sorry. Nobody is born with a natural belief in God or any religion. Generally there is some event in their lives that tends to turn people towards church, God, a particular religion, etc. Possibly for you that event has not yet occurred. You may live your whole life and never have that experience or develope a belief in God. That's entirely your right and I don't think anybody would ever deny you that right. I don't "blindly" believe in God. There was a time in my life that I thought it was all pretty bogus too. Been there and experienced that. I will say that I am a happier person with God in my life.

 

[Al Gunn]

What makes no sense to me is why god would make humans, of which some of them get lost. He screw up?
And if he gave humans free will (well, at least the men), how can I be lost if I'm exercising my free will to not believe?

Do you have children?

2 teenage girls, why?

 

[Big Black Dog]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big Black Dog
You must open up your heart to the possibility of God. You must open up your mind that God could exist. As long as you take the cold hard stance that there is no God, you will never believe.
I think that this is a misunderstanding between believers and nonbelievers. I don't cling to the position that there is no God. I'm an agnostic and my perspective is this: There is no evidence supporting that the Universe was created and is governed by a supreme being or higher power. It is possible, but until there is evidence supporting the claim that there is a higher power, I will remain unbelieving - not disbelieving. There is no evidence supporting that human being can fly, so I will not live my life as though I can until such time there is proof. Otherwise, when I step off into space from my 2nd story window to fly to work... Now, I'm not saying there is no possibility that God exists, I'm just saying that there isn't any proof. I don't dogmatically believe that Darwin's theories are right because if a hypothetical new discovery were to disprove Natural Selection, I would revise my opinion. However, there is A LOT of evidece supporting Darwin's theories, so I accept them as a framework in which to think and operate. However, if there was no supporting evidence of his theories, I wouldn't believe or accept them at all.

Like I said earlier, God is a hard item to sell because he is not somebody you can physically see, touch, or openly question. I have been where you are and I understand your position. I don't agree with it but your opinion is just as valid as mine. We just see things differently. I believe in God. I don't stand on the street corner and brow beat people with my beliefs. I do, however, voice my opinion BUT my opinion is no more valid than your opinion. Your lack of belief is not threatening to me. Some christians come completely unglued if you look them in the eye and tell them what they believe is a crock of crap. I don't think those type of christians are as tolerant as they should be. Christians aren't perfect people. Just forgiven.

 

[sidneyworld]

Deception covers all these things by the best masters. So does the devil. He's the ultimate master. He is pure evil cloaked in Heaven's light. Many folks have been fooled by others utilizing all these components wrapped in a beautiful package!

Yes, well, my love wasn't false and if you are implying that my girlfriend of two years is lying when she tells me she loves me, and when she SHOWS me she loves me when it doesn't benefit her in anyway (because I'm more of a pain in the ass cycnic than I am a pleasant optimistic person to be around) than I am afraid that I am not open to that line or argument. Nor will I accept that when it is applied to my father, my family, or my friends whom are the best people I know and none of them, and I mean NONE of them are Christians. This is that self-righteousness that I can't stand from Christians (if you're not a Christian then you don't know true love). Don't judge me and don't judge my loved ones.

More importantly, my analogy involves pure love. Not the very physical human desire to procreate, whether or not it is intended to create life, or to simply give in to the desire. Love is not a physical desire. Attraction and Lust are and all life has that matrix of inner bio physical complexities involving sex and attraction to ensure the survival and continuance of their species. Anne Marie

I ain't talkin' about lust or sexual desire. I'm talking about selfless love. I would die to save my girlfriend. Tell me that isn't pure love, and I'll tell you this conversation is pointless and done.

My goodness Colorado, Of course your love is real, that is my point. And I'm sure so is theirs. Of course. And I knew you would agree with me. Thus my point counters your assertion that you will not believe in anything you can't prove scientifically. If you can't prove it, as you mention, then it cannot be true. I am simply highlighting a contradiction. I am certainly not challenging between you and your loved ones. I have a deep capacity to love which is what compells such an argument by those who challenge the notion of a higher level of existence of life that so many discount because they don't understand it. Love involves that higher existence. It's most certainly the catalyst at the very least to beginning to understand these things.

My belief in God comes from very real experiences throughout my life which could not be explained and was everything but coincidental. Especially after my parents died. I always had an affinity to this realm of thought, to begin with, from a very young child. I simply did not understand it, nor bothered trying until I got older and began to put the pieces together. I should have been dead many times but profound things happened that were nothing less than a miracle and statistically off the charts in terms of happening by chance.

Some things in life have to be experienced to understand. But there are roads you can follow, time you can take to reflect without expectation, and places you can go, just a beautiful setting in a park or a quiet moment with a beautiful person you adore to bring this out in you. We as human beings have the capacity to reach that level of providence. It's really not that impossible. You simply have to recognize the difference between inner peace and something that transcends it into a universal perspective. When it happens, you'll know what I am talking about, and then perhaps you might begin to understand what love really is and why we love to begin with, beyond any clinical, or scientifically tangible definition.

And its a beautiful thing, Colorado.

When you fall in love for real with someone, you fall in love with life. And no matter the outcome of that relationship, you will never, from that point on see life in such closed quarters. It opens doors you never knew existed. And they never close, unless you allow them to. But you always have that key. Believe me, if I could show you how wonderful my life is, without regard to wealth or possessions, if I could have that ability to set you on that road, I would. But at least you might be thinking more about it. It's effortless and does not compromise your current life. You don't have to pray conventionally. You don't have to attend mass, or walk the straight line. There are no man made rules that open the gates of heaven. Only what you feel in your heart, and the goodness and love that comes out once you open that door.

Anne Marie

 

[JBeukema]

God is a spirit.

'Prove it

Can you measure a spirit?

Perhaps, once you demonstrate what it is

Belief in God is based solely on faith.

and therefore not on reason or logical deductions. Your have just agreed that religion is based wholly in ignorance and anti-intellectualism. Thank you for your input.

agree that you cannot "prove" that God exists BUT can you prove that God does not exist solely on your word alone

You bear the burden of proof. Prove I am not god. prove that there's no such thing ads the tooth fairy. Prove that Krishna and FSM do not exist.

You can neither prove or disprove the existance of God. It's all based on faith.

Then the religious should stop acting like it's based on reason or any kind of intelligent thought process.

[First I think it would be helpful if you understand that Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

Prove it

Since God is a spirit

You never did demonstrate that

then one needs to understand that there is a spirit that speaks and teaches about God.

Prove it

A soul can be in hell

Prove that hell and the soul exist, and that a soul can be in hell

and the person can be outside the gate.

Prove it

The flesh is where we live in this world which is God's garden. The soul is created in heaven.

Proof? Demonstrate that your assertions are valid.