The NIST 9-11 Report on the WTC Collapse

[daws101]

How are you defining 'reporting' and 'confirming'? What I've seen is reports of molten metal, or molten steel, but not confirmation of it.

Someone just recently provided a link to an article about NASA imaging of ground zero soon after 9/11. According to that, while there were hot spots detected, there was no molten metal confirmed by the images. And I'm not certain what areas of extreme heat after such an event is supposed to suggest. I also don't think it said anything about these hot spots lasting 100 days after the event; I believe it talked about a week or two after, and how the number of hot spots was down to a few a couple of weeks after 9/11.

There is also a question of whether NIST intentionally disregarded important evidence, or disregarded evidence that had nothing to do with the collapse, or didn't actually disregard evidence at all.

nist was tasked with specific duties not a generalized investigation, all of the so called "intentionally disregarded evidence" was out of their purview.. and investigated by other agencies : Here is a partial list of those who responded to and/or investigated the events:

1,500 people who worked the flight 93 crash scene
40,000 people who worked the piles at Ground Zero
55 FBI Evidence Response Teams at Fresh Kills in New York
7,000+ FBI Agents
8,000+ people who worked the scene at the Pentagon
ACE Bermuda Insurance
AEMC Construction
AIG Insurance
Air Traffic Control System Command Center in Washington
Alexandria VA Fire & Rescue
Allianz Global Risks
American Airlines
American Concrete Institute
American Institute of Steel Construction
American Red Cross
Applied Biosystems Inc.
Applied Research Associates
Arlington County Emergency Medical Services
Arlington County Fire Department
Arlington County Sheriff's Department
Arlington VA Police Department
Armed Forces Institute of Pathology
Armed Forces Institute of Technology Federal Advisory Committee
ARUP USA
Atlantic Heydt Inc.
Bechtel
Berlin Fire Department
Big Apple Wrecking
Blanford & Co.
Bode Technology Group
Bovis Inc.
Building and Construction Trades Council
Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms
C-130H crew in D.C. & Shanksville
Cal Berkeley Engineering Dept.
California Incident Management Team
Carter Burgess Engineering
Celera Genomics
Centers for Disease Control
Central City Fire Department
Central Intelligence Agency
Cleveland Airport control tower
Columbia University Department of Civil Engineering and Engineering Mechanics
Congressional Joint Intelligence Committee
Consolidated Edison Company
Construction Technologies Laboratory
Controlled Demolitions Inc.
Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat
Counterterrorism and Security Group
CTL Engineering
D.H. Griffin Wrecking Co. Inc.
DeSimone Consulting Engineers
Dewhurst MacFarlane &Partners
DiSalvo Ericson Engineering
District of Columbia Fire & Rescue
DOD Honor Guard, Pentagon
D'Onofrio Construction
E-4B National Airborne Operations Center crews
Edwards and Kelcey Engineering
Engineering Systems, Inc.
Environmental protection Agency
Exponent Failure Analysis Associates
EYP Mission CriticalFacilities
Fairfax County Fire & Rescue
Falcon 20 crew in PA
Family members who received calls from victims on the planes
FBI Evidence Recovery Teams
Federal Aviation Administration
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Federal Emergency Management Agency
Federal Insurance Co.
FEMA 68-Person Urban Search and Rescue Teams: Arizona Task Force 1, California Task Force 1, California Task Force 3, California Task Force 7, Colorado Task Force 1, Fairfax Task Force 1, Florida Task Force 1, Florida Task Force 2, Maryland Task Force 1, Massachusetts Task Force 1, Metro Dade/Miami, Nebraska Task Force 1, New Mexico Task Force 1, New York Task Force 1, Pennsylvania Task Force 1, Tennessee Task Force 1, Texas Task Force 1, Utah Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 2, Washington Task Force 1
FEMA Disaster Field Office
FEMA Emergency Response Team
FEMA Urban Search and Rescue Incident Support Team-Advanced 3
Fire Department of New York
Fort Myer Fire Department
French Urban Search & Rescue Task Force
Friedens Volunteer Fire Department
Gateway Demolition
Gene Code Forensics
Georgia Tech Engineering Dept.
Gilsanz Murray Steficek LLP
GMAC Financing
Goldstein Associates Consulting Engineers
Guy Nordenson Associates
HAKS Engineers
Hampton-Clarke Inc.
HHS National Medical Response Team
HLW International Engineering
Hooversville Rescue Squad.
Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department
Hoy Structural Services
Hughes Associates, Inc
Hugo Neu Schnitzer East
hundreds of ironworkers, some of whom built the WTC
Hundreds of New York City Police Department Detectives
Industrial Risk Insurers
Institute for Civil Infrastructure Systems
International Association of Fire Chiefs
International Union of Operating Engineers Locals 14 & 15
J.R. Harris & Company
Johnstown-Cambria County Airport Authority
Karl Koch Steel Consulting Inc.
KCE Structural Engineers
Koch Skanska
Koutsoubis, Alonso Associates
Laboratory Corp. of America
Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory
Leslie E. Robertson Associates
LIRo Engineering
Listie Volunteer Fire Company
Lockwood Consulting
M.G. McLaren Engineering
Masonry Society
Mazzocchi Wrecking Inc.
Metal Management Northeast
Metropolitan Airport Authority Fire Unit
Miami-Dade Urban Search & Rescue
Military District of Washington Search & Rescue Team
Montgomery County Fire & Rescue
Mueser Rutledge Consulting Engineers
Murray Engineering
Myriad Genetic Laboratories Inc.
National Center for Biotechnology Informatics
National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
National Council of Structural Engineers Associations
National Disaster Medical System
National Emergency Numbering Association
National Fire Protection Association
National Guard in D.C., New York, and Pennsylvania
National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)
National Institutes of Health Human Genome Research Institute
National Law Enforcement and Security Institute
National Military Command Center
National Reconnaissance Office
National Response Center
National Science Foundation Division of Civil and Mechanical Systems
National Security Agency
National Transportation Safety Board
National Wrecking
Natural Hazards Research and Applications Information Center
New Jersey State Police
New York City Department of Buildings WTC Task Force
New York City Department of Design and Construction
New York City Department of Environmental Protection
New York City Office of Emergency Management
New York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner
New York City Police Department Aviation Unit
New York City Police Department Emergency Services Unit
New York Daily News
New York Flight Control Center
New York Newsday
New York Port Authority Construction Board
New York Port Authority Police
New York State Emergency Management Office
New York State Police Forensic Services
New York Times
North American Aerospace Defense Command
Northeast Air Defense Sector Commanders and crew
Numerous bomb-sniffing dogs
Numerous Forensic Anthropologists
Numerous Forensic Dentists
Numerous Forensic Pathologists
Numerous Forensic Radiologists
NuStats
Occupational Safety and Health Administration
Office of Emergency Preparedness
Office of Strategic Services
Orchid Cellmark
Parsons Brinckerhoff Engineering
Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection
Pennsylvania Department of Health and Human Services
Pennsylvania Region 13 Metropolitan Medical Response Group
Pennsylvania State Funeral Directors Association
Pennsylvania State Police
Pentagon Defense Protective Service
Pentagon Helicopter Crash Response Team
Pentagon Medical Staff
Pentagon Renovation Team
Phillips & Jordan, Inc.
Port of New York and New Jersey Authority
Pro-Safety Services
Protec
Public Entity Risk Institute
Purdue University Engineering Dept.
Robert Silman Associates Structural Engineers
Rolf Jensen & Associates, Inc
Rosenwasser/Grossman Consulting Engineers
Royal SunAlliance/Royal Indemnity
SACE Prime Power Assessment Teams
SACE Structural Safety Engineers and Debris Planning and Response Teams
Salvation Army Disaster Services
several EPA Hazmat Teams
several FBI Hazmat Teams
several Federal Disaster Medical Assistance Teams
several Federal Disaster Mortuary (DMORT) Teams
Severud Associates Consulting Engineers
Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company
Silverstein Properties
Simpson Gumpertz & Heger Engineers
Skidmore, Owings & Merrill LLP
Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire
Society of Fire Protection Engineers
Somerset Ambulance Association
Somerset County Coroner's Office
Somerset County Emergency Management Agency
Somerset Volunteer Fire Department
St. Paul/Travelers Insurance
State of Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency
Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company
Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE)
Structural Engineers Association of New York
Superstructures Engineering
Swiss Re America Insurance
Telephone operators who took calls from passengers in the hijacked planes
Teng & Associates
Thornton-Tomasetti Group, Inc.
TIG Insurance
Tokio Marine & Fire
Transportation Safety Administration
Tully Construction
Twin City Fire Insurance
Tylk Gustafson Reckers Wilson Andrews Engineering
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
Underwriters Laboratories
Union Wrecking
United Airlines
United States Air National Guard
United States Fire Administration
United States Secret Service
United Steelworkers of America
University of Sheffield Fire Engineering Research
US Army Reserves of Virginia Beach Fairfax County and Montgomery County
US Army’s Communications-Electronics Command
US Department of Defense
US Department of Justice
US Department of State
Virginia Beach Fire Department
Virginia Department of Emergency Management
Virginia State Police
Vollmer Associates Engineers
Washington Post
Weeks Marine
Weidlinger Associates
Weiskopf & Pickworth Engineering
Westmoreland County Emergency Management Agency
Whitney Contracting
Willis Group Holdings
WJE Structural Engineers
Worcester Polytechnic Institute
World Trade Center security staff
XL Insurance
Yonkers Contracting
York International
Zurich Financial
Zurich Re Risk Engineering


which beg the question why doesn't sister jones an co. fling any of their rancor it these?

Easy...because NIST stated that they were responsible for what was in their reports.
It is the NIST report idiot, and it is their report. They even say they are responsible for its contents.
Now what about the fires in the towers, and the UL testing?
Virginia Beach Fire dept? Do you even know what it is that they contributed? Perhaps you could list what each individual listed agency specifically did regarding the molten steel we were discussing?

there is no need for me to do your work for you ,not only that but it's your contention that a governmental conspiracy existed...if you were as intelligent as you pretend to be and not epically failing to convince any sane persons that the molten metal is any more then collateral damage you'd spent at least a little time checking that list for possible co conspirators, instead of whining about what nist didn't do to your satisfaction.
I already posted their goals and none of them say anything about testing for molten metal.
to put it succinctly you are arguing meaningless minutia in the vain hope you'll find something that's not there.

 

[Montrovant]

I haven't yet seen conclusive evidence there was ANY molten metal at the site.
However, I'm willing to proceed under the assumption that there was. It's certainly not all that hard to believe.

I don't require you to proceed with this assumption about the molten steel. My point was to point out my first instance regarding the NIST, that led me to start doubting their integrity. I also gained some insight about what some others deem important or not as well. Remember this is about us trying to understand why we have different views, and it is obvious that what I and others consider an obvious and flagrant foul, is of no great consequence to you. What I can't understand is why this is not important to you, and to others. I mean aren't we both wanting them to look at at EVERYTHING? I consider this phenomena very important, you don't so we found out a little bit about what the others mindset and priorities are.


No actually I don't thnk it was aluminum based on the lack of quantity of it,
and where most of it was on/in the towers, and how it is affected by fire and heat, but as I said the point had been made about where we stand on this, and its value to us.

I have to disagree and would like to know how you can justify saying this. Do you have quantities of aluminum vs steel, and where each had their place in/on the towers? I've been waiting for anyone to answer this question, and no one has come up with anything, other then the dust samples, or an assumption by a CT debunking site that has no link to where they get their info from...
I have some figures that will show you that the prevalence of steel is vastly more then the aluminum,and that most of the aluminum was on the outside perimeter of the towers, and was installed after the steel components went up..

Well I can't say at all that I consider this irrelevant, as
it is still a mystery as to what the fuel source was that kept the extreme temps elevated
so high (to produce a molten state) and for so long.
We know that office furnishings like chairs carpet are treated so they wont burn very easily, and are rated as such. We also know that obtaining upper echelon extreme temp of something, is only obtainable under controlled conditions with the perfect amount of oxygen and fuel, and that the fires in the towers were of a diffuse flame variety, and not controllable. These fires were not able to reach the kinds of temps or sustainability that was reported and confirmed, and backed up by witnesses and satellite imaging.

Yes, but we still run into problems, that go against all the molten metal being aluminum...
One is, that the quantity of aluminum was much lower at the towers, and another is that most of the aluminum was placed on the outer perimeters as a thin covering..The extreme temps were very deep, some as much as 70 feet below the surface, and we all saw that most of the perimeter outer walls of the buildings were ejected away from the centers. Also, if a piece of aluminum was in a molten, it would get rid of the heat faster and transfer it away, perhaps to something else that held its heat longer, like maybe even a piece of steel, that wouldn't start to melt until 2500 Deg. or so.
So aluminum would melt faster, but rid itself of the heat and transfer it to whatever it was in contact with faster.
This means that it was more unlikely to have remained in its molten state.
The fact that extreme temps were being recorded for so long, means that something had to be providing the fuel source for it to remain that way, and it was of no interest to NIST, thus strike one against them in my book.

There's more then just a few that can be listed, and some like Tulley were hired specifically to do the clean up on the site.It happened, it was reported, and it was confirmed by people and imaging, even firefighters, who you would think would know when something like metal is in a molten state...

Considering the nature of the event and the investigation, I don't think it should ever have been expected that the report would be anything more than educated guesswork. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, the conclusions made in the NIST report are simply reasonable enough that I haven't seen reason to think they were intentionally falsified.

NIST personnel aren't stupid, and they know how a scientific forensic investigation should proceed. The others who criticize them for their unscientific work, are their peers, are in the same field of work and study and even teach it to students. I can accept some mistakes along the way but man...this just does not fall into an oops category, IMO...The best way to have done this investigation was to gather up everything and dissect it from scratch, and it seems that NIST really did have an outcome they needed to adjust their data to...Again this is the opinion I have taken based on what I have read in their work, and what other credible individuals have said when they reviewed their body of work regarding the 9-11 buildings.

Oh, and to be clear, the quote function has gotten messed up in some recent posts, that isn't me being quoted.

Cool, I'll keep a look out for that...

Anyway, this is one major instance that has led me to doubt the integrity of the NIST report. We have to see what they have to say about the fires next. They were open fires in an uncontrolled environment, could not have melted any of the steel in such a short time, and we have people in one of the impacts hole waving....How how did this part of the tower start to fail first?

Is there some information regarding the total amount of molten metal at ground zero? If not, I don't see how the amount of aluminum, outside of general terms, is significant. I agree that the only information I've seen on it was from a 9/11 truth debunking site. If, however, that is accurate, then it would seem there was certainly a large enough quantity of aluminum in the panels on the outside of the towers to account for some pretty large pools. Add in the aluminum from the planes and any aluminum from furniture/equipment in the buildings and it seems a substantial amount. I don't understand why the ratio of aluminum to steel matters in the slightest. If there were 200,000,000 tons of steel in the towers, and only 1,000 tons of aluminum, that still might be more than enough aluminum to account for any molten metal seen. And as you have actually posted links which claim the fires were likely in the 1500 degree F range, I would think it would make sense that aluminum was what turned molten, since it has a melting temperature below that.

As far as the aluminum on the outside of the towers not being in the center of the debris....I don't know that ALL of the outer panels would have been blown so far away from the collapse that no significant number could have ended up in the center of the debris piles.

I don't know what was burning to keep the hot spots going at ground zero. I DO know that the towers were incredibly massive, as well as being filled with who knows what variety of furniture, equipment, clothing, etc. I also have not seen any evidence that these hot spots continued for months, although I could have simply missed that. There was almost surely plenty of material to burn, though.

I don't know how you can talk about the difficulty of obtaining 'upper echelon extreme temp' and still dismiss aluminum as the likely culprit for any molten metal. Again, it has a far lower melting point than steel, and I'm fairly certain at least one link you posted claimed that office fires averaged somewhere in the 1500 degree range. That is hotter than aluminum's melting point, but well below steel's.

I still think you are mistaking the relevance of aluminum dissipating heat more rapidly than steel. That is unimportant unless the heated aluminum is surrounded by something at a lower temperature. It isn't going to shed heat into something as hot or hotter than the aluminum is! So, unless you are saying the molten metal must have been surrounded by materials at a lower temperature than that metal's melting point, it doesn't in any way diminish the likelihood that any molten metal seen was aluminum rather than steel.
Put another way : if you put aluminum in an oven and heat it until it melts, it isn't going to magically start to shed heat before you turn the oven off. So if, say, molten aluminum is surrounded by steel, and that steel is at 1500 degrees, the aluminum is not going to cool and harden simply because it conducts heat better.

The differences that have come up between our views of this in this thread are not so much about what we think the NIST report should have considered important as what we consider to be verified data. That might just be a matter of you having spent more time researching the events. And perhaps there should have been more attention paid to claims of molten metal. I don't know what the NIST investigators knew or how they may have made any decision to ignore such claims. I do think that the presence of molten aluminum would be pretty unimportant to the investigation.

 

[Mr. Jones]

How are you defining 'reporting' and 'confirming'? What I've seen is reports of molten metal, or molten steel, but not confirmation of it.

Well,many people reported seeing it, and reported the persistent fires that would flare up as pieces of debris were being removed. Some saw it, and some reported that they were told by others who said they saw it. There can be no denying something like this that so many agreed that they themselves saw it or knew of it. It was reported as news worthy to mention by news outlets as well.
A photographer wrote a book about it, after he was there on the ground and witnessed this. He was at GZ for months after the event. He said that the ground in places was so hot it melted the workers boots.
"The surface was so hot that standing too long in one spot softened and even melted the soles of our safety shoes."
Publication:20121014021016 - 911Encyclopedia

Structural Engineer Abolhassan Astaneh-
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
Abolhassan Astaneh - 911Encyclopedia
Online NewsHour: Report | Overpass Collapse Becomes Lesson | May 10, 2007 | PBS

Chaplain Herb Trimpe reported what he was told by many contractors-
"I talked to many contractors and they said they actually saw molten metal trapped, beams had just totally had been melted because of the heat."
Publication:20121014030604 - 911Encyclopedia

FDNY Captain Ruvolo -
"You'd get down below and you'd see molten steel -- molten steel! -- running down the channel rails. Like you're in a foundry... like lava... from a volcano."
Publication:20121014042540 - 911Encyclopedia

Also search and rescue teams -
Penn Arts and Sciences, Summer 2002. Penn SAS Summer 2002 -- K-9/11

Dr Keith Eaton, Chief Executive of the London-based Institution of Structural Engineers-
“molten metal which was still red-hot weeks after the event,” as well as “four-inch thick steel plates sheered and bent in the disaster.”
Dr Keith Eaton, The Structural Engineer 3, September 2002
"They showed us many fascinating slides" ... "ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster."
Publication:20121013062331 - 911Encyclopedia

Many confirmed these reports, like Joe Allbaugh, director of FEMA,
http://web.archive.org/web/20031211095910/http://www.fema.gov/doc/diz01/gumbel1004.doc

Leslie Robertson saw it with his own eyes and confirms what he described as a "little river of STEEL flowing" after a firefighter showed it to him.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmHqES_lto]Les Robertson Confirms Molten Metal in WTC Basement - YouTube[/ame]
He also stated-
“...as of 21 days after the attack the fires were still burning and molten steel still running.”
He is mentioned about this by James Williams, “WTC a Structural Success,” SEAU NEWS, The Newsletter of the Structural Engineers Association of Utah, October 2001,

"descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams." -
Publication:20121014062821 - 911Encyclopedia

Alison Geyh, PhD. -
"In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel."
Publication:20121014064156 - 911Encyclopedia

Ron Burger -
"Feeling the heat, seeing the molten steel, the layers upon layers of ash, like lava, it reminded me of Mt. St. Helens and the thousands who fled that disaster"
Publication:20121014070613 - 911Encyclopedia

Guy Lounsbury of New York Air National Guard's 109th Air Wing -
"Smoke constantly poured from the peaks. One fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers' remains. Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots.
Publication:20121014075453 - 911Encyclopedia

William Langewiesche -
"the ominous groaning of weakened structures overhead, or, in the early days, the streams of molten metal that leaked from the hot cores and flowed down broken walls inside the foundation hole."
Publication:20121014082758 - 911Encyclopedia

Lee Turner of The Boone County Firefighters -
He remembers seeing in the darkness a distant, pinkish glow–molten metal dripping from a beam–but found no signs of life.
Publication:20121013070727 - 911Encyclopedia

Greg Fuchek -
"In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel"
Publication:20121014083815 - 911Encyclopedia

Joe O'Toole FDNY -
O'Toole remembers in February seeing a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. "It was dripping from the molten steel,"
Publication:20121014085539 - 911Encyclopedia

Kenneth Holden, Commissioner of the New York City Department of Design and Construction-
"Underground, it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from Building 6."
Publication:20121014090955 - 911Encyclopedia

Richard Garlock, structural engineer for LERA -
Going below, it was smoky and really hot... The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running."
Publication:20121014091549 - 911Encyclopedia

Jim McKay, Post-Gazette Staff Writer interviewing Vance Deisingnore, OSHA Officer at WTC -
"a fire truck 10 feet below the ground that was still burning two weeks after the towers collapsed, its metal so hot it looked like a vat of molten steel."
Publication:20121014095123 - 911Encyclopedia

Ed Pfister, Disaster Medical Assistance Team -
"I spent several hours tonight, walking "the pile" and attempting to soak it all in for the last time and find a bit of closure...deep below ground a portion of the pile was still on fire and boiled with molten material. Sometimes, open flame would erupt as a crane pulled debris out and air rushed in. Fire hoses constantly poured streams of water causing huge billowing steam clouds to rise up over the site into the huge lights above."
Publication:20121014102509 - 911Encyclopedia

Larry Keating, Danny Doyle, Mike Emerson and Bobby Graves -- are veteran ironworkers in Local 40. -
Publication:20121014104642 - 911Encyclopedia

Fire Department Chief Mike Donoho of Texas Task Force 1 Urban Search and Rescue -
"What you had were large columns of steel that were just stuck into massive amounts of molten steel and other metals, that had just fused together from the heat and bonded together from the strength of the collapse. It looked like a massive, molten mess that had been fused together, like a car that had been cubed and crushed. With all that heavy, heavy stuff, there were wires, rebar, concrete. Most of it was just steel. A lot of what we were walking on was just molten steel. "
Publication:20121014105903 - 911Encyclopedia

Ben Robinson -
"The workers go through three pairs of rubber boots a day because they melt in the three-week-old fire of molten metal...the fire, molten metal, the lack of breathable air and 3000+ decomposing bodies."
Publication:20121014110600 - 911Encyclopedia

Thomas A. Cahill, a retired professor of physics and atmospheric science at the University of California, Davis-
"In mid-October, in the evening, when they would pull out a steel beam, the lower part would be glowing dull red, which indicates a temperature on the order of 500 to 600 °C. And we know that people were turning over pieces of concrete in December that would flash into fire - which requires about 300 °C. So the surface of the pile cooled rather rapidly, but the bulk of the pile stayed hot all the way to December."
Publication:20121010111025 - 911Encyclopedia

"Ferer was one of several people in a visiting United Services Organization (USO)-Tribeca group who had lost family members. As they visited troops, they carried Port Authority pins, baseball caps, and a piece of molten steel from the WTC." -
Publication:20121014112038 - 911Encyclopedia

"Even as the steel cooled, there was concern that the girders had become so hot that they could crumble when lifted by overhead cranes. As a result, additional safeguards were put in place to limit the dangers associated with lifting the damaged steel and to protect the workers in the vicinity. Another danger involved the high temperature of twisted steel pulled from the rubble. Underground fires burned at temperatures up to 2,000 degrees. As the huge cranes pulled steel beams from the pile, safety experts worried about the effects of the extreme heat on the crane rigging and the hazards of contact with the hot steel. And they were concerned that applying water to cool the steel could cause a steam explosion"-
Publication:20121014233501 - 911Encyclopedia

The temperature at the core of "the pile," is near 2000 degrees Fahrenheit, according to fire officials
ABCNEWS.com : Recovery Continues; No New Survivors

The US&R Teams were provided access to thermal imagery and began superimposing thermal data on collapse maps in October. This thermal imagery was collected on the same over flights of the WTC as the airborne LIDAR data that was being used to map the surface elevations each day. The National Information and Mapping Agency (NIMA), located at Pier 90 produced these maps. Firefighters and other responders contended with intense heat associated with the super-heated steel for weeks; some were coming back from shifts with the bottoms of their boots melted.
School of Engineering & Applied Science at The George Washington University: Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management (ICDRM)

"Two weeks after the attack, the rubble, the Pile, is still 7 stories tall. Below, in the Pit it burns like the gates of hell. It is 1200 degrees, so hot that the steel work lifted by the grapplers comes out soft. I've never seen anything like this" -Capt. Susanne Caviness conversation with FDNY Firefighter -
Publication:20121015005452 - 911Encyclopedia


The list goes on.
This was not just 2-3 isolated observances or scant mentioning of the melted steel, and the blatant flagrant disregard and dismissal of this by NIST is shameful. But again, this depends whether you want to look at what is available objectively, or not.

Someone just recently provided a link to an article about NASA imaging of ground zero soon after 9/11. According to that, while there were hot spots detected, there was no molten metal confirmed by the images. And I'm not certain what areas of extreme heat after such an event is supposed to suggest. I also don't think it said anything about these hot spots lasting 100 days after the event; I believe it talked about a week or two after, and how the number of hot spots was down to a few a couple of weeks after 9/11.

Are we trying to trivialize this still? Look ,if the thermal imaging said that the temps were so hot at a certain location, would it not stand to reason that they would be even hotter below, from where they were emanating from?
Remember that the towers initially, were said to have collapsed due to the fires being hot enough, to melt the steel, then when they realized that the temps were not this great, they changed the story to only "weakened" the steel, and many of you followed suit but we have these extremely hot and intense fires and heat that was capable of MELTING steel? Do you not WANT see the obvious controversy? Can you not at least understand why some people think there was definitely something else that cause this, that NIST did not want to touch on?

Only 2 of the 3 that fell that day were impacted by planes, You can't use "jetfueled" fires when it comes to WTC 7., but it too experienced extreme rubble pile fires and heat.
This leads many to speculate that something was fueling these extremes, and sustaining them for 100 days or so.
I'll post what I have about the fires duration if you like. It is well known they lasted this long underground, in what would seemingly be a low oxygen environment.

There is also a question of whether NIST intentionally disregarded important evidence, or disregarded evidence that had nothing to do with the collapse, or didn't actually disregard evidence at all.

This depends on what you personally feel is important to you. You do know that NIST is not 100% sure of a lot of what they speculated on, so I would think that everything should have been taken into consideration instead of just dismissing some of it.
Actually NIST only considered events and data leading up to collapse, and did not attempt to explain the actual collapse events themselves, which is not following through in their mission statement. If had been a thorough and accurate investigation, and they would have used everything they could regarding the events, there would not be so much criticism..
Again one must concentrate on what within their body of work, is so convincing to you that you are willing to disregard their flagrant disregard for scientific integrity.

I have read the critics, and have read where in the NIST work they have a problem with it, and I have to agree with many of them and their positions. The disregard of the molten steel is just one instance.

Now about those fires and their testing? Did it fair better then this instance?

 

[daws101]

you have quantities of aluminum vs steel, and where each had their place in/on the towers? I've been waiting for anyone to answer this question, and no one has come up with anything, other then the dust samples, or an assumption by a CT debunking site that has no link to where they get their info from-SISTER JONES ...sister jones lies twice in this statement
in the original version of this REQUEST:"I haven't seen anyone present how much solid aluminum compared to other metals such as iron/steel there was, anyone have any figures OTHER THEN dust, which we're not talking about at this time?"-sister jones post #89
he mentions nothing about WHERE the metals were.
when the amounts were presented to him he moves the goal posts.
Sister jones do you know what the word cladding means?
I'll make it easy for you: most of the aluminum was on the OUTSIDE of the towers (except for the planes that ended up IN the towers)
Almost all of the steel was INSIDE the towers. now that's cleared up... It's irrelevant.
where those metals ended up is relevant ,in the subbasements.. along with tons of more combustible items.
so the existence of hot spots and even molten metal is not too surprising or proof of conspiracy.
the other lie by sister jones: assumption by a CT debunking site that has no link to where they get their info from-
you have to go to the site and it list their sources...
you lying asshat...

 

[daws101]

How are you defining 'reporting' and 'confirming'? What I've seen is reports of molten metal, or molten steel, but not confirmation of it.

Well,many people reported seeing it, and reported the persistent fires that would flare up as pieces of debris were being removed. Some saw it, and some reported that they were told by others who said they saw it. There can be no denying something like this that so many agreed that they themselves saw it or knew of it. It was reported as news worthy to mention by news outlets as well.
A photographer wrote a book about it, after he was there on the ground and witnessed this. He was at GZ for months after the event. He said that the ground in places was so hot it melted the workers boots.
"The surface was so hot that standing too long in one spot softened and even melted the soles of our safety shoes."
Publication:20121014021016 - 911Encyclopedia

Structural Engineer Abolhassan Astaneh-
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
Abolhassan Astaneh - 911Encyclopedia
Online NewsHour: Report | Overpass Collapse Becomes Lesson | May 10, 2007 | PBS

Chaplain Herb Trimpe reported what he was told by many contractors-
"I talked to many contractors and they said they actually saw molten metal trapped, beams had just totally had been melted because of the heat."
Publication:20121014030604 - 911Encyclopedia

FDNY Captain Ruvolo -
"You'd get down below and you'd see molten steel -- molten steel! -- running down the channel rails. Like you're in a foundry... like lava... from a volcano."
Publication:20121014042540 - 911Encyclopedia

Also search and rescue teams -
Penn Arts and Sciences, Summer 2002. Penn SAS Summer 2002 -- K-9/11

Dr Keith Eaton, Chief Executive of the London-based Institution of Structural Engineers-
“molten metal which was still red-hot weeks after the event,” as well as “four-inch thick steel plates sheered and bent in the disaster.”
Dr Keith Eaton, The Structural Engineer 3, September 2002
"They showed us many fascinating slides" ... "ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster."
Publication:20121013062331 - 911Encyclopedia

Many confirmed these reports, like Joe Allbaugh, director of FEMA,
http://web.archive.org/web/20031211095910/http://www.fema.gov/doc/diz01/gumbel1004.doc

Leslie Robertson saw it with his own eyes and confirms what he described as a "little river of STEEL flowing" after a firefighter showed it to him.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmHqES_lto]Les Robertson Confirms Molten Metal in WTC Basement - YouTube[/ame]
He also stated-
“...as of 21 days after the attack the fires were still burning and molten steel still running.”
He is mentioned about this by James Williams, “WTC a Structural Success,” SEAU NEWS, The Newsletter of the Structural Engineers Association of Utah, October 2001,

"descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams." -
Publication:20121014062821 - 911Encyclopedia

Alison Geyh, PhD. -
"In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel."
Publication:20121014064156 - 911Encyclopedia

Ron Burger -
"Feeling the heat, seeing the molten steel, the layers upon layers of ash, like lava, it reminded me of Mt. St. Helens and the thousands who fled that disaster"
Publication:20121014070613 - 911Encyclopedia

Guy Lounsbury of New York Air National Guard's 109th Air Wing -
"Smoke constantly poured from the peaks. One fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers' remains. Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots.
Publication:20121014075453 - 911Encyclopedia

William Langewiesche -
"the ominous groaning of weakened structures overhead, or, in the early days, the streams of molten metal that leaked from the hot cores and flowed down broken walls inside the foundation hole."
Publication:20121014082758 - 911Encyclopedia

Lee Turner of The Boone County Firefighters -
He remembers seeing in the darkness a distant, pinkish glow–molten metal dripping from a beam–but found no signs of life.
Publication:20121013070727 - 911Encyclopedia

Greg Fuchek -
"In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel"
Publication:20121014083815 - 911Encyclopedia

Joe O'Toole FDNY -
O'Toole remembers in February seeing a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. "It was dripping from the molten steel,"
Publication:20121014085539 - 911Encyclopedia

Kenneth Holden, Commissioner of the New York City Department of Design and Construction-
"Underground, it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from Building 6."
Publication:20121014090955 - 911Encyclopedia

Richard Garlock, structural engineer for LERA -
Going below, it was smoky and really hot... The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running."
Publication:20121014091549 - 911Encyclopedia

Jim McKay, Post-Gazette Staff Writer interviewing Vance Deisingnore, OSHA Officer at WTC -
"a fire truck 10 feet below the ground that was still burning two weeks after the towers collapsed, its metal so hot it looked like a vat of molten steel."
Publication:20121014095123 - 911Encyclopedia

Ed Pfister, Disaster Medical Assistance Team -
"I spent several hours tonight, walking "the pile" and attempting to soak it all in for the last time and find a bit of closure...deep below ground a portion of the pile was still on fire and boiled with molten material. Sometimes, open flame would erupt as a crane pulled debris out and air rushed in. Fire hoses constantly poured streams of water causing huge billowing steam clouds to rise up over the site into the huge lights above."
Publication:20121014102509 - 911Encyclopedia

Larry Keating, Danny Doyle, Mike Emerson and Bobby Graves -- are veteran ironworkers in Local 40. -
Publication:20121014104642 - 911Encyclopedia

Fire Department Chief Mike Donoho of Texas Task Force 1 Urban Search and Rescue -
"What you had were large columns of steel that were just stuck into massive amounts of molten steel and other metals, that had just fused together from the heat and bonded together from the strength of the collapse. It looked like a massive, molten mess that had been fused together, like a car that had been cubed and crushed. With all that heavy, heavy stuff, there were wires, rebar, concrete. Most of it was just steel. A lot of what we were walking on was just molten steel. "
Publication:20121014105903 - 911Encyclopedia

Ben Robinson -
"The workers go through three pairs of rubber boots a day because they melt in the three-week-old fire of molten metal...the fire, molten metal, the lack of breathable air and 3000+ decomposing bodies."
Publication:20121014110600 - 911Encyclopedia

Thomas A. Cahill, a retired professor of physics and atmospheric science at the University of California, Davis-
"In mid-October, in the evening, when they would pull out a steel beam, the lower part would be glowing dull red, which indicates a temperature on the order of 500 to 600 °C. And we know that people were turning over pieces of concrete in December that would flash into fire - which requires about 300 °C. So the surface of the pile cooled rather rapidly, but the bulk of the pile stayed hot all the way to December."
Publication:20121010111025 - 911Encyclopedia

"Ferer was one of several people in a visiting United Services Organization (USO)-Tribeca group who had lost family members. As they visited troops, they carried Port Authority pins, baseball caps, and a piece of molten steel from the WTC." -
Publication:20121014112038 - 911Encyclopedia

"Even as the steel cooled, there was concern that the girders had become so hot that they could crumble when lifted by overhead cranes. As a result, additional safeguards were put in place to limit the dangers associated with lifting the damaged steel and to protect the workers in the vicinity. Another danger involved the high temperature of twisted steel pulled from the rubble. Underground fires burned at temperatures up to 2,000 degrees. As the huge cranes pulled steel beams from the pile, safety experts worried about the effects of the extreme heat on the crane rigging and the hazards of contact with the hot steel. And they were concerned that applying water to cool the steel could cause a steam explosion"-
Publication:20121014233501 - 911Encyclopedia

The temperature at the core of "the pile," is near 2000 degrees Fahrenheit, according to fire officials
ABCNEWS.com : Recovery Continues; No New Survivors

The US&R Teams were provided access to thermal imagery and began superimposing thermal data on collapse maps in October. This thermal imagery was collected on the same over flights of the WTC as the airborne LIDAR data that was being used to map the surface elevations each day. The National Information and Mapping Agency (NIMA), located at Pier 90 produced these maps. Firefighters and other responders contended with intense heat associated with the super-heated steel for weeks; some were coming back from shifts with the bottoms of their boots melted.
School of Engineering & Applied Science at The George Washington University: Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management (ICDRM)

"Two weeks after the attack, the rubble, the Pile, is still 7 stories tall. Below, in the Pit it burns like the gates of hell. It is 1200 degrees, so hot that the steel work lifted by the grapplers comes out soft. I've never seen anything like this" -Capt. Susanne Caviness conversation with FDNY Firefighter -
Publication:20121015005452 - 911Encyclopedia


The list goes on.
This was not just 2-3 isolated observances or scant mentioning of the melted steel, and the blatant flagrant disregard and dismissal of this by NIST is shameful. But again, this depends whether you want to look at what is available objectively, or not.

Someone just recently provided a link to an article about NASA imaging of ground zero soon after 9/11. According to that, while there were hot spots detected, there was no molten metal confirmed by the images. And I'm not certain what areas of extreme heat after such an event is supposed to suggest. I also don't think it said anything about these hot spots lasting 100 days after the event; I believe it talked about a week or two after, and how the number of hot spots was down to a few a couple of weeks after 9/11.

Are we trying to trivialize this still? Look ,if the thermal imaging said that the temps were so hot at a certain location, would it not stand to reason that they would be even hotter below, from where they were emanating from?
Remember that the towers initially, were said to have collapsed due to the fires being hot enough, to melt the steel, then when they realized that the temps were not this great, they changed the story to only "weakened" the steel, and many of you followed suit but we have these extremely hot and intense fires and heat that was capable of MELTING steel? Do you not WANT see the obvious controversy? Can you not at least understand why some people think there was definitely something else that cause this, that NIST did not want to touch on?

Only 2 of the 3 that fell that day were impacted by planes, You can't use "jetfueled" fires when it comes to WTC 7., but it too experienced extreme rubble pile fires and heat.
This leads many to speculate that something was fueling these extremes, and sustaining them for 100 days or so.
I'll post what I have about the fires duration if you like. It is well known they lasted this long underground, in what would seemingly be a low oxygen environment.

There is also a question of whether NIST intentionally disregarded important evidence, or disregarded evidence that had nothing to do with the collapse, or didn't actually disregard evidence at all.

This depends on what you personally feel is important to you. You do know that NIST is not 100% sure of a lot of what they speculated on, so I would think that everything should have been taken into consideration instead of just dismissing some of it.
Actually NIST only considered events and data leading up to collapse, and did not attempt to explain the actual collapse events themselves, which is not following through in their mission statement. If had been a thorough and accurate investigation, and they would have used everything they could regarding the events, there would not be so much criticism..
Again one must concentrate on what within their body of work, is so convincing to you that you are willing to disregard their flagrant disregard for scientific integrity.

I have read the critics, and have read where in the NIST work they have a problem with it, and I have to agree with many of them and their positions. The disregard of the molten steel is just one instance.

Now about those fires and their testing? Did it fair better then this instance?

all the witness statements from the same site smells like bias to me

http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/analysis/asse_groundzero1.htm
another zero credibility site...

 

[daws101]

How are you defining 'reporting' and 'confirming'? What I've seen is reports of molten metal, or molten steel, but not confirmation of it.

Well,many people reported seeing it, and reported the persistent fires that would flare up as pieces of debris were being removed. Some saw it, and some reported that they were told by others who said they saw it. There can be no denying something like this that so many agreed that they themselves saw it or knew of it. It was reported as news worthy to mention by news outlets as well.
A photographer wrote a book about it, after he was there on the ground and witnessed this. He was at GZ for months after the event. He said that the ground in places was so hot it melted the workers boots.
"The surface was so hot that standing too long in one spot softened and even melted the soles of our safety shoes."
Publication:20121014021016 - 911Encyclopedia

Structural Engineer Abolhassan Astaneh-
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
Abolhassan Astaneh - 911Encyclopedia
Online NewsHour: Report | Overpass Collapse Becomes Lesson | May 10, 2007 | PBS

Chaplain Herb Trimpe reported what he was told by many contractors-
"I talked to many contractors and they said they actually saw molten metal trapped, beams had just totally had been melted because of the heat."
Publication:20121014030604 - 911Encyclopedia

FDNY Captain Ruvolo -
"You'd get down below and you'd see molten steel -- molten steel! -- running down the channel rails. Like you're in a foundry... like lava... from a volcano."
Publication:20121014042540 - 911Encyclopedia

Also search and rescue teams -
Penn Arts and Sciences, Summer 2002. Penn SAS Summer 2002 -- K-9/11

Dr Keith Eaton, Chief Executive of the London-based Institution of Structural Engineers-
“molten metal which was still red-hot weeks after the event,” as well as “four-inch thick steel plates sheered and bent in the disaster.”
Dr Keith Eaton, The Structural Engineer 3, September 2002
"They showed us many fascinating slides" ... "ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster."
Publication:20121013062331 - 911Encyclopedia

Many confirmed these reports, like Joe Allbaugh, director of FEMA,
http://web.archive.org/web/20031211095910/http://www.fema.gov/doc/diz01/gumbel1004.doc

Leslie Robertson saw it with his own eyes and confirms what he described as a "little river of STEEL flowing" after a firefighter showed it to him.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmHqES_lto]Les Robertson Confirms Molten Metal in WTC Basement - YouTube[/ame]
He also stated-
“...as of 21 days after the attack the fires were still burning and molten steel still running.”
He is mentioned about this by James Williams, “WTC a Structural Success,” SEAU NEWS, The Newsletter of the Structural Engineers Association of Utah, October 2001,

"descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams." -
Publication:20121014062821 - 911Encyclopedia

Alison Geyh, PhD. -
"In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel."
Publication:20121014064156 - 911Encyclopedia

Ron Burger -
"Feeling the heat, seeing the molten steel, the layers upon layers of ash, like lava, it reminded me of Mt. St. Helens and the thousands who fled that disaster"
Publication:20121014070613 - 911Encyclopedia

Guy Lounsbury of New York Air National Guard's 109th Air Wing -
"Smoke constantly poured from the peaks. One fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers' remains. Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots.
Publication:20121014075453 - 911Encyclopedia

William Langewiesche -
"the ominous groaning of weakened structures overhead, or, in the early days, the streams of molten metal that leaked from the hot cores and flowed down broken walls inside the foundation hole."
Publication:20121014082758 - 911Encyclopedia

Lee Turner of The Boone County Firefighters -
He remembers seeing in the darkness a distant, pinkish glow–molten metal dripping from a beam–but found no signs of life.
Publication:20121013070727 - 911Encyclopedia

Greg Fuchek -
"In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel"
Publication:20121014083815 - 911Encyclopedia

Joe O'Toole FDNY -
O'Toole remembers in February seeing a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. "It was dripping from the molten steel,"
Publication:20121014085539 - 911Encyclopedia

Kenneth Holden, Commissioner of the New York City Department of Design and Construction-
"Underground, it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from Building 6."
Publication:20121014090955 - 911Encyclopedia

Richard Garlock, structural engineer for LERA -
Going below, it was smoky and really hot... The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running."
Publication:20121014091549 - 911Encyclopedia

Jim McKay, Post-Gazette Staff Writer interviewing Vance Deisingnore, OSHA Officer at WTC -
"a fire truck 10 feet below the ground that was still burning two weeks after the towers collapsed, its metal so hot it looked like a vat of molten steel."
Publication:20121014095123 - 911Encyclopedia

Ed Pfister, Disaster Medical Assistance Team -
"I spent several hours tonight, walking "the pile" and attempting to soak it all in for the last time and find a bit of closure...deep below ground a portion of the pile was still on fire and boiled with molten material. Sometimes, open flame would erupt as a crane pulled debris out and air rushed in. Fire hoses constantly poured streams of water causing huge billowing steam clouds to rise up over the site into the huge lights above."
Publication:20121014102509 - 911Encyclopedia

Larry Keating, Danny Doyle, Mike Emerson and Bobby Graves -- are veteran ironworkers in Local 40. -
Publication:20121014104642 - 911Encyclopedia

Fire Department Chief Mike Donoho of Texas Task Force 1 Urban Search and Rescue -
"What you had were large columns of steel that were just stuck into massive amounts of molten steel and other metals, that had just fused together from the heat and bonded together from the strength of the collapse. It looked like a massive, molten mess that had been fused together, like a car that had been cubed and crushed. With all that heavy, heavy stuff, there were wires, rebar, concrete. Most of it was just steel. A lot of what we were walking on was just molten steel. "
Publication:20121014105903 - 911Encyclopedia

Ben Robinson -
"The workers go through three pairs of rubber boots a day because they melt in the three-week-old fire of molten metal...the fire, molten metal, the lack of breathable air and 3000+ decomposing bodies."
Publication:20121014110600 - 911Encyclopedia

Thomas A. Cahill, a retired professor of physics and atmospheric science at the University of California, Davis-
"In mid-October, in the evening, when they would pull out a steel beam, the lower part would be glowing dull red, which indicates a temperature on the order of 500 to 600 °C. And we know that people were turning over pieces of concrete in December that would flash into fire - which requires about 300 °C. So the surface of the pile cooled rather rapidly, but the bulk of the pile stayed hot all the way to December."
Publication:20121010111025 - 911Encyclopedia

"Ferer was one of several people in a visiting United Services Organization (USO)-Tribeca group who had lost family members. As they visited troops, they carried Port Authority pins, baseball caps, and a piece of molten steel from the WTC." -
Publication:20121014112038 - 911Encyclopedia

"Even as the steel cooled, there was concern that the girders had become so hot that they could crumble when lifted by overhead cranes. As a result, additional safeguards were put in place to limit the dangers associated with lifting the damaged steel and to protect the workers in the vicinity. Another danger involved the high temperature of twisted steel pulled from the rubble. Underground fires burned at temperatures up to 2,000 degrees. As the huge cranes pulled steel beams from the pile, safety experts worried about the effects of the extreme heat on the crane rigging and the hazards of contact with the hot steel. And they were concerned that applying water to cool the steel could cause a steam explosion"-
Publication:20121014233501 - 911Encyclopedia

The temperature at the core of "the pile," is near 2000 degrees Fahrenheit, according to fire officials
ABCNEWS.com : Recovery Continues; No New Survivors

The US&R Teams were provided access to thermal imagery and began superimposing thermal data on collapse maps in October. This thermal imagery was collected on the same over flights of the WTC as the airborne LIDAR data that was being used to map the surface elevations each day. The National Information and Mapping Agency (NIMA), located at Pier 90 produced these maps. Firefighters and other responders contended with intense heat associated with the super-heated steel for weeks; some were coming back from shifts with the bottoms of their boots melted.
School of Engineering & Applied Science at The George Washington University: Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management (ICDRM)

"Two weeks after the attack, the rubble, the Pile, is still 7 stories tall. Below, in the Pit it burns like the gates of hell. It is 1200 degrees, so hot that the steel work lifted by the grapplers comes out soft. I've never seen anything like this" -Capt. Susanne Caviness conversation with FDNY Firefighter -
Publication:20121015005452 - 911Encyclopedia


The list goes on.
This was not just 2-3 isolated observances or scant mentioning of the melted steel, and the blatant flagrant disregard and dismissal of this by NIST is shameful. But again, this depends whether you want to look at what is available objectively, or not.

Someone just recently provided a link to an article about NASA imaging of ground zero soon after 9/11. According to that, while there were hot spots detected, there was no molten metal confirmed by the images. And I'm not certain what areas of extreme heat after such an event is supposed to suggest. I also don't think it said anything about these hot spots lasting 100 days after the event; I believe it talked about a week or two after, and how the number of hot spots was down to a few a couple of weeks after 9/11.

Are we trying to trivialize this still? Look ,if the thermal imaging said that the temps were so hot at a certain location, would it not stand to reason that they would be even hotter below, from where they were emanating from?
Remember that the towers initially, were said to have collapsed due to the fires being hot enough, to melt the steel, then when they realized that the temps were not this great, they changed the story to only "weakened" the steel, and many of you followed suit but we have these extremely hot and intense fires and heat that was capable of MELTING steel? Do you not WANT see the obvious controversy? Can you not at least understand why some people think there was definitely something else that cause this, that NIST did not want to touch on?

Only 2 of the 3 that fell that day were impacted by planes, You can't use "jetfueled" fires when it comes to WTC 7., but it too experienced extreme rubble pile fires and heat.
This leads many to speculate that something was fueling these extremes, and sustaining them for 100 days or so.
I'll post what I have about the fires duration if you like. It is well known they lasted this long underground, in what would seemingly be a low oxygen environment.

There is also a question of whether NIST intentionally disregarded important evidence, or disregarded evidence that had nothing to do with the collapse, or didn't actually disregard evidence at all.

This depends on what you personally feel is important to you. You do know that NIST is not 100% sure of a lot of what they speculated on, so I would think that everything should have been taken into consideration instead of just dismissing some of it.
Actually NIST only considered events and data leading up to collapse, and did not attempt to explain the actual collapse events themselves, which is not following through in their mission statement. If had been a thorough and accurate investigation, and they would have used everything they could regarding the events, there would not be so much criticism..
Again one must concentrate on what within their body of work, is so convincing to you that you are willing to disregard their flagrant disregard for scientific integrity.

I have read the critics, and have read where in the NIST work they have a problem with it, and I have to agree with many of them and their positions. The disregard of the molten steel is just one instance.

Now about those fires and their testing? Did it fair better then this instance?

who's we again?
the first we was the CT crowd, now it's your detractors.
could you please choose one WE for clarity's sake?

 

[Montrovant]

I'm not going to quote in order to save space.

I read the first 5+ links, then randomly clicked a couple more and read the summations.

First of all, there is very little that I could call confirmation of molten steel. In fact, in the links I clicked, I don't know if there was a single instance of a direct quote from someone claiming to have seen molten steel. It was a lot of, "This person said they saw molten steel" or, "These workers have been finding molten steel". So many of those links could easily have been molten aluminum.

More, a few of the links describe temperatures within the debris well below the melting point of steel. That certainly doesn't lend credence to the idea that there was molten steel.

That aside, perhaps a much more important question is if the fires would cause greater temperatures in the debris than in the towers before collapse? I believe you have talked about the impossibility of an open-air fire reaching the temperatures necessary to melt steel. Well, the fires underground in the debris were not open-air, were they?

I'd also point out that in one of the first links you provide, that to an article about Structural Engineer Abolhassan Astaneh, he says that the fires weakening the steel was the reason for the collapse.

 

[SAYIT]

How are you defining 'reporting' and 'confirming'? What I've seen is reports of molten metal, or molten steel, but not confirmation of it.

Someone just recently provided a link to an article about NASA imaging of ground zero soon after 9/11. According to that, while there were hot spots detected, there was no molten metal confirmed by the images. And I'm not certain what areas of extreme heat after such an event is supposed to suggest. I also don't think it said anything about these hot spots lasting 100 days after the event; I believe it talked about a week or two after, and how the number of hot spots was down to a few a couple of weeks after 9/11.

There is also a question of whether NIST intentionally disregarded important evidence, or disregarded evidence that had nothing to do with the collapse, or didn't actually disregard evidence at all.

nist was tasked with specific duties not a generalized investigation, all of the so called "intentionally disregarded evidence" was out of their purview.. and investigated by other agencies : Here is a partial list of those who responded to and/or investigated the events:

1,500 people who worked the flight 93 crash scene
40,000 people who worked the piles at Ground Zero
55 FBI Evidence Response Teams at Fresh Kills in New York
7,000+ FBI Agents
8,000+ people who worked the scene at the Pentagon
ACE Bermuda Insurance
AEMC Construction
AIG Insurance
Air Traffic Control System Command Center in Washington
Alexandria VA Fire & Rescue
Allianz Global Risks
American Airlines
American Concrete Institute
American Institute of Steel Construction
American Red Cross
Applied Biosystems Inc.
Applied Research Associates
Arlington County Emergency Medical Services
Arlington County Fire Department
Arlington County Sheriff's Department
Arlington VA Police Department
Armed Forces Institute of Pathology
Armed Forces Institute of Technology Federal Advisory Committee
ARUP USA
Atlantic Heydt Inc.
Bechtel
Berlin Fire Department
Big Apple Wrecking
Blanford & Co.
Bode Technology Group
Bovis Inc.
Building and Construction Trades Council
Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms
C-130H crew in D.C. & Shanksville
Cal Berkeley Engineering Dept.
California Incident Management Team
Carter Burgess Engineering
Celera Genomics
Centers for Disease Control
Central City Fire Department
Central Intelligence Agency
Cleveland Airport control tower
Columbia University Department of Civil Engineering and Engineering Mechanics
Congressional Joint Intelligence Committee
Consolidated Edison Company
Construction Technologies Laboratory
Controlled Demolitions Inc.
Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat
Counterterrorism and Security Group
CTL Engineering
D.H. Griffin Wrecking Co. Inc.
DeSimone Consulting Engineers
Dewhurst MacFarlane &Partners
DiSalvo Ericson Engineering
District of Columbia Fire & Rescue
DOD Honor Guard, Pentagon
D'Onofrio Construction
E-4B National Airborne Operations Center crews
Edwards and Kelcey Engineering
Engineering Systems, Inc.
Environmental protection Agency
Exponent Failure Analysis Associates
EYP Mission CriticalFacilities
Fairfax County Fire & Rescue
Falcon 20 crew in PA
Family members who received calls from victims on the planes
FBI Evidence Recovery Teams
Federal Aviation Administration
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Federal Emergency Management Agency
Federal Insurance Co.
FEMA 68-Person Urban Search and Rescue Teams: Arizona Task Force 1, California Task Force 1, California Task Force 3, California Task Force 7, Colorado Task Force 1, Fairfax Task Force 1, Florida Task Force 1, Florida Task Force 2, Maryland Task Force 1, Massachusetts Task Force 1, Metro Dade/Miami, Nebraska Task Force 1, New Mexico Task Force 1, New York Task Force 1, Pennsylvania Task Force 1, Tennessee Task Force 1, Texas Task Force 1, Utah Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 2, Washington Task Force 1
FEMA Disaster Field Office
FEMA Emergency Response Team
FEMA Urban Search and Rescue Incident Support Team-Advanced 3
Fire Department of New York
Fort Myer Fire Department
French Urban Search & Rescue Task Force
Friedens Volunteer Fire Department
Gateway Demolition
Gene Code Forensics
Georgia Tech Engineering Dept.
Gilsanz Murray Steficek LLP
GMAC Financing
Goldstein Associates Consulting Engineers
Guy Nordenson Associates
HAKS Engineers
Hampton-Clarke Inc.
HHS National Medical Response Team
HLW International Engineering
Hooversville Rescue Squad.
Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department
Hoy Structural Services
Hughes Associates, Inc
Hugo Neu Schnitzer East
hundreds of ironworkers, some of whom built the WTC
Hundreds of New York City Police Department Detectives
Industrial Risk Insurers
Institute for Civil Infrastructure Systems
International Association of Fire Chiefs
International Union of Operating Engineers Locals 14 & 15
J.R. Harris & Company
Johnstown-Cambria County Airport Authority
Karl Koch Steel Consulting Inc.
KCE Structural Engineers
Koch Skanska
Koutsoubis, Alonso Associates
Laboratory Corp. of America
Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory
Leslie E. Robertson Associates
LIRo Engineering
Listie Volunteer Fire Company
Lockwood Consulting
M.G. McLaren Engineering
Masonry Society
Mazzocchi Wrecking Inc.
Metal Management Northeast
Metropolitan Airport Authority Fire Unit
Miami-Dade Urban Search & Rescue
Military District of Washington Search & Rescue Team
Montgomery County Fire & Rescue
Mueser Rutledge Consulting Engineers
Murray Engineering
Myriad Genetic Laboratories Inc.
National Center for Biotechnology Informatics
National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
National Council of Structural Engineers Associations
National Disaster Medical System
National Emergency Numbering Association
National Fire Protection Association
National Guard in D.C., New York, and Pennsylvania
National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)
National Institutes of Health Human Genome Research Institute
National Law Enforcement and Security Institute
National Military Command Center
National Reconnaissance Office
National Response Center
National Science Foundation Division of Civil and Mechanical Systems
National Security Agency
National Transportation Safety Board
National Wrecking
Natural Hazards Research and Applications Information Center
New Jersey State Police
New York City Department of Buildings WTC Task Force
New York City Department of Design and Construction
New York City Department of Environmental Protection
New York City Office of Emergency Management
New York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner
New York City Police Department Aviation Unit
New York City Police Department Emergency Services Unit
New York Daily News
New York Flight Control Center
New York Newsday
New York Port Authority Construction Board
New York Port Authority Police
New York State Emergency Management Office
New York State Police Forensic Services
New York Times
North American Aerospace Defense Command
Northeast Air Defense Sector Commanders and crew
Numerous bomb-sniffing dogs
Numerous Forensic Anthropologists
Numerous Forensic Dentists
Numerous Forensic Pathologists
Numerous Forensic Radiologists
NuStats
Occupational Safety and Health Administration
Office of Emergency Preparedness
Office of Strategic Services
Orchid Cellmark
Parsons Brinckerhoff Engineering
Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection
Pennsylvania Department of Health and Human Services
Pennsylvania Region 13 Metropolitan Medical Response Group
Pennsylvania State Funeral Directors Association
Pennsylvania State Police
Pentagon Defense Protective Service
Pentagon Helicopter Crash Response Team
Pentagon Medical Staff
Pentagon Renovation Team
Phillips & Jordan, Inc.
Port of New York and New Jersey Authority
Pro-Safety Services
Protec
Public Entity Risk Institute
Purdue University Engineering Dept.
Robert Silman Associates Structural Engineers
Rolf Jensen & Associates, Inc
Rosenwasser/Grossman Consulting Engineers
Royal SunAlliance/Royal Indemnity
SACE Prime Power Assessment Teams
SACE Structural Safety Engineers and Debris Planning and Response Teams
Salvation Army Disaster Services
several EPA Hazmat Teams
several FBI Hazmat Teams
several Federal Disaster Medical Assistance Teams
several Federal Disaster Mortuary (DMORT) Teams
Severud Associates Consulting Engineers
Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company
Silverstein Properties
Simpson Gumpertz & Heger Engineers
Skidmore, Owings & Merrill LLP
Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire
Society of Fire Protection Engineers
Somerset Ambulance Association
Somerset County Coroner's Office
Somerset County Emergency Management Agency
Somerset Volunteer Fire Department
St. Paul/Travelers Insurance
State of Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency
Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company
Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE)
Structural Engineers Association of New York
Superstructures Engineering
Swiss Re America Insurance
Telephone operators who took calls from passengers in the hijacked planes
Teng & Associates
Thornton-Tomasetti Group, Inc.
TIG Insurance
Tokio Marine & Fire
Transportation Safety Administration
Tully Construction
Twin City Fire Insurance
Tylk Gustafson Reckers Wilson Andrews Engineering
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
Underwriters Laboratories
Union Wrecking
United Airlines
United States Air National Guard
United States Fire Administration
United States Secret Service
United Steelworkers of America
University of Sheffield Fire Engineering Research
US Army Reserves of Virginia Beach Fairfax County and Montgomery County
US Army’s Communications-Electronics Command
US Department of Defense
US Department of Justice
US Department of State
Virginia Beach Fire Department
Virginia Department of Emergency Management
Virginia State Police
Vollmer Associates Engineers
Washington Post
Weeks Marine
Weidlinger Associates
Weiskopf & Pickworth Engineering
Westmoreland County Emergency Management Agency
Whitney Contracting
Willis Group Holdings
WJE Structural Engineers
Worcester Polytechnic Institute
World Trade Center security staff
XL Insurance
Yonkers Contracting
York International
Zurich Financial
Zurich Re Risk Engineering


which beg the question why doesn't sister jones an co. fling any of their rancor it these?

Easy...because NIST stated that they were responsible for what was in their reports.
It is the NIST report idiot, and it is their report. They even say they are responsible for its contents.
Now what about the fires in the towers, and the UL testing?
Virginia Beach Fire dept? Do you even know what it is that they contributed? Perhaps you could list what each individual listed agency specifically did regarding the molten steel we were discussing?

What molten steel?

 

[SAYIT]

I haven't yet seen conclusive evidence there was ANY molten metal at the site.
However, I'm willing to proceed under the assumption that there was. It's certainly not all that hard to believe.

I don't require you to proceed with this assumption about the molten steel. My point was to point out my first instance regarding the NIST, that led me to start doubting their integrity. I also gained some insight about what some others deem important or not as well. Remember this is about us trying to understand why we have different views, and it is obvious that what I and others consider an obvious and flagrant foul, is of no great consequence to you. What I can't understand is why this is not important to you, and to others. I mean aren't we both wanting them to look at at EVERYTHING? I consider this phenomena very important, you don't so we found out a little bit about what the others mindset and priorities are.


No actually I don't thnk it was aluminum based on the lack of quantity of it,
and where most of it was on/in the towers, and how it is affected by fire and heat, but as I said the point had been made about where we stand on this, and its value to us.

I have to disagree and would like to know how you can justify saying this. Do you have quantities of aluminum vs steel, and where each had their place in/on the towers? I've been waiting for anyone to answer this question, and no one has come up with anything, other then the dust samples, or an assumption by a CT debunking site that has no link to where they get their info from...
I have some figures that will show you that the prevalence of steel is vastly more then the aluminum,and that most of the aluminum was on the outside perimeter of the towers, and was installed after the steel components went up..

Well I can't say at all that I consider this irrelevant, as
it is still a mystery as to what the fuel source was that kept the extreme temps elevated
so high (to produce a molten state) and for so long.
We know that office furnishings like chairs carpet are treated so they wont burn very easily, and are rated as such. We also know that obtaining upper echelon extreme temp of something, is only obtainable under controlled conditions with the perfect amount of oxygen and fuel, and that the fires in the towers were of a diffuse flame variety, and not controllable. These fires were not able to reach the kinds of temps or sustainability that was reported and confirmed, and backed up by witnesses and satellite imaging.

Yes, but we still run into problems, that go against all the molten metal being aluminum...
One is, that the quantity of aluminum was much lower at the towers, and another is that most of the aluminum was placed on the outer perimeters as a thin covering..The extreme temps were very deep, some as much as 70 feet below the surface, and we all saw that most of the perimeter outer walls of the buildings were ejected away from the centers. Also, if a piece of aluminum was in a molten, it would get rid of the heat faster and transfer it away, perhaps to something else that held its heat longer, like maybe even a piece of steel, that wouldn't start to melt until 2500 Deg. or so.
So aluminum would melt faster, but rid itself of the heat and transfer it to whatever it was in contact with faster.
This means that it was more unlikely to have remained in its molten state.
The fact that extreme temps were being recorded for so long, means that something had to be providing the fuel source for it to remain that way, and it was of no interest to NIST, thus strike one against them in my book.

There's more then just a few that can be listed, and some like Tulley were hired specifically to do the clean up on the site.It happened, it was reported, and it was confirmed by people and imaging, even firefighters, who you would think would know when something like metal is in a molten state...


NIST personnel aren't stupid, and they know how a scientific forensic investigation should proceed. The others who criticize them for their unscientific work, are their peers, are in the same field of work and study and even teach it to students. I can accept some mistakes along the way but man...this just does not fall into an oops category, IMO...The best way to have done this investigation was to gather up everything and dissect it from scratch, and it seems that NIST really did have an outcome they needed to adjust their data to...Again this is the opinion I have taken based on what I have read in their work, and what other credible individuals have said when they reviewed their body of work regarding the 9-11 buildings.

Oh, and to be clear, the quote function has gotten messed up in some recent posts, that isn't me being quoted.

Cool, I'll keep a look out for that...

Anyway, this is one major instance that has led me to doubt the integrity of the NIST report. We have to see what they have to say about the fires next. They were open fires in an uncontrolled environment, could not have melted any of the steel in such a short time, and we have people in one of the impacts hole waving....How how did this part of the tower start to fail first?

Is there some information regarding the total amount of molten metal at ground zero? If not, I don't see how the amount of aluminum, outside of general terms, is significant. I agree that the only information I've seen on it was from a 9/11 truth debunking site. If, however, that is accurate, then it would seem there was certainly a large enough quantity of aluminum in the panels on the outside of the towers to account for some pretty large pools. Add in the aluminum from the planes and any aluminum from furniture/equipment in the buildings and it seems a substantial amount. I don't understand why the ratio of aluminum to steel matters in the slightest. If there were 200,000,000 tons of steel in the towers, and only 1,000 tons of aluminum, that still might be more than enough aluminum to account for any molten metal seen. And as you have actually posted links which claim the fires were likely in the 1500 degree F range, I would think it would make sense that aluminum was what turned molten, since it has a melting temperature below that.

As far as the aluminum on the outside of the towers not being in the center of the debris....I don't know that ALL of the outer panels would have been blown so far away from the collapse that no significant number could have ended up in the center of the debris piles.

I don't know what was burning to keep the hot spots going at ground zero. I DO know that the towers were incredibly massive, as well as being filled with who knows what variety of furniture, equipment, clothing, etc. I also have not seen any evidence that these hot spots continued for months, although I could have simply missed that. There was almost surely plenty of material to burn, though.

I don't know how you can talk about the difficulty of obtaining 'upper echelon extreme temp' and still dismiss aluminum as the likely culprit for any molten metal. Again, it has a far lower melting point than steel, and I'm fairly certain at least one link you posted claimed that office fires averaged somewhere in the 1500 degree range. That is hotter than aluminum's melting point, but well below steel's.

I still think you are mistaking the relevance of aluminum dissipating heat more rapidly than steel. That is unimportant unless the heated aluminum is surrounded by something at a lower temperature. It isn't going to shed heat into something as hot or hotter than the aluminum is! So, unless you are saying the molten metal must have been surrounded by materials at a lower temperature than that metal's melting point, it doesn't in any way diminish the likelihood that any molten metal seen was aluminum rather than steel.
Put another way : if you put aluminum in an oven and heat it until it melts, it isn't going to magically start to shed heat before you turn the oven off. So if, say, molten aluminum is surrounded by steel, and that steel is at 1500 degrees, the aluminum is not going to cool and harden simply because it conducts heat better.

The differences that have come up between our views of this in this thread are not so much about what we think the NIST report should have considered important as what we consider to be verified data. That might just be a matter of you having spent more time researching the events. And perhaps there should have been more attention paid to claims of molten metal. I don't know what the NIST investigators knew or how they may have made any decision to ignore such claims. I do think that the presence of molten aluminum would be pretty unimportant to the investigation.

Since no evidence of some secret super accelerant which could melt steel or continue to burn for weeks was found there was no point in examining whatever molten mats were found at GZ.

 

[SAYIT]

How are you defining 'reporting' and 'confirming'? What I've seen is reports of molten metal, or molten steel, but not confirmation of it.

Well,many people reported seeing it, and reported the persistent fires that would flare up as pieces of debris were being removed. Some saw it, and some reported that they were told by others who said they saw it. There can be no denying something like this that so many agreed that they themselves saw it or knew of it. It was reported as news worthy to mention by news outlets as well.
A photographer wrote a book about it, after he was there on the ground and witnessed this. He was at GZ for months after the event. He said that the ground in places was so hot it melted the workers boots.
"The surface was so hot that standing too long in one spot softened and even melted the soles of our safety shoes."
Publication:20121014021016 - 911Encyclopedia

Structural Engineer Abolhassan Astaneh-
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
Abolhassan Astaneh - 911Encyclopedia
Online NewsHour: Report | Overpass Collapse Becomes Lesson | May 10, 2007 | PBS

Chaplain Herb Trimpe reported what he was told by many contractors-
"I talked to many contractors and they said they actually saw molten metal trapped, beams had just totally had been melted because of the heat."
Publication:20121014030604 - 911Encyclopedia

FDNY Captain Ruvolo -
"You'd get down below and you'd see molten steel -- molten steel! -- running down the channel rails. Like you're in a foundry... like lava... from a volcano."
Publication:20121014042540 - 911Encyclopedia

Also search and rescue teams -
Penn Arts and Sciences, Summer 2002. Penn SAS Summer 2002 -- K-9/11

Dr Keith Eaton, Chief Executive of the London-based Institution of Structural Engineers-
“molten metal which was still red-hot weeks after the event,” as well as “four-inch thick steel plates sheered and bent in the disaster.”
Dr Keith Eaton, The Structural Engineer 3, September 2002
"They showed us many fascinating slides" ... "ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster."
Publication:20121013062331 - 911Encyclopedia

Many confirmed these reports, like Joe Allbaugh, director of FEMA,
http://web.archive.org/web/20031211095910/http://www.fema.gov/doc/diz01/gumbel1004.doc

Leslie Robertson saw it with his own eyes and confirms what he described as a "little river of STEEL flowing" after a firefighter showed it to him.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmHqES_lto]Les Robertson Confirms Molten Metal in WTC Basement - YouTube[/ame]
He also stated-
“...as of 21 days after the attack the fires were still burning and molten steel still running.”
He is mentioned about this by James Williams, “WTC a Structural Success,” SEAU NEWS, The Newsletter of the Structural Engineers Association of Utah, October 2001,

"descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams." -
Publication:20121014062821 - 911Encyclopedia

Alison Geyh, PhD. -
"In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel."
Publication:20121014064156 - 911Encyclopedia

Ron Burger -
"Feeling the heat, seeing the molten steel, the layers upon layers of ash, like lava, it reminded me of Mt. St. Helens and the thousands who fled that disaster"
Publication:20121014070613 - 911Encyclopedia

Guy Lounsbury of New York Air National Guard's 109th Air Wing -
"Smoke constantly poured from the peaks. One fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers' remains. Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots.
Publication:20121014075453 - 911Encyclopedia

William Langewiesche -
"the ominous groaning of weakened structures overhead, or, in the early days, the streams of molten metal that leaked from the hot cores and flowed down broken walls inside the foundation hole."
Publication:20121014082758 - 911Encyclopedia

Lee Turner of The Boone County Firefighters -
He remembers seeing in the darkness a distant, pinkish glow–molten metal dripping from a beam–but found no signs of life.
Publication:20121013070727 - 911Encyclopedia

Greg Fuchek -
"In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel"
Publication:20121014083815 - 911Encyclopedia

Joe O'Toole FDNY -
O'Toole remembers in February seeing a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. "It was dripping from the molten steel,"
Publication:20121014085539 - 911Encyclopedia

Kenneth Holden, Commissioner of the New York City Department of Design and Construction-
"Underground, it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from Building 6."
Publication:20121014090955 - 911Encyclopedia

Richard Garlock, structural engineer for LERA -
Going below, it was smoky and really hot... The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running."
Publication:20121014091549 - 911Encyclopedia

Jim McKay, Post-Gazette Staff Writer interviewing Vance Deisingnore, OSHA Officer at WTC -
"a fire truck 10 feet below the ground that was still burning two weeks after the towers collapsed, its metal so hot it looked like a vat of molten steel."
Publication:20121014095123 - 911Encyclopedia

Ed Pfister, Disaster Medical Assistance Team -
"I spent several hours tonight, walking "the pile" and attempting to soak it all in for the last time and find a bit of closure...deep below ground a portion of the pile was still on fire and boiled with molten material. Sometimes, open flame would erupt as a crane pulled debris out and air rushed in. Fire hoses constantly poured streams of water causing huge billowing steam clouds to rise up over the site into the huge lights above."
Publication:20121014102509 - 911Encyclopedia

Larry Keating, Danny Doyle, Mike Emerson and Bobby Graves -- are veteran ironworkers in Local 40. -
Publication:20121014104642 - 911Encyclopedia

Fire Department Chief Mike Donoho of Texas Task Force 1 Urban Search and Rescue -
"What you had were large columns of steel that were just stuck into massive amounts of molten steel and other metals, that had just fused together from the heat and bonded together from the strength of the collapse. It looked like a massive, molten mess that had been fused together, like a car that had been cubed and crushed. With all that heavy, heavy stuff, there were wires, rebar, concrete. Most of it was just steel. A lot of what we were walking on was just molten steel. "
Publication:20121014105903 - 911Encyclopedia

Ben Robinson -
"The workers go through three pairs of rubber boots a day because they melt in the three-week-old fire of molten metal...the fire, molten metal, the lack of breathable air and 3000+ decomposing bodies."
Publication:20121014110600 - 911Encyclopedia

Thomas A. Cahill, a retired professor of physics and atmospheric science at the University of California, Davis-
"In mid-October, in the evening, when they would pull out a steel beam, the lower part would be glowing dull red, which indicates a temperature on the order of 500 to 600 °C. And we know that people were turning over pieces of concrete in December that would flash into fire - which requires about 300 °C. So the surface of the pile cooled rather rapidly, but the bulk of the pile stayed hot all the way to December."
Publication:20121010111025 - 911Encyclopedia

"Ferer was one of several people in a visiting United Services Organization (USO)-Tribeca group who had lost family members. As they visited troops, they carried Port Authority pins, baseball caps, and a piece of molten steel from the WTC." -
Publication:20121014112038 - 911Encyclopedia

"Even as the steel cooled, there was concern that the girders had become so hot that they could crumble when lifted by overhead cranes. As a result, additional safeguards were put in place to limit the dangers associated with lifting the damaged steel and to protect the workers in the vicinity. Another danger involved the high temperature of twisted steel pulled from the rubble. Underground fires burned at temperatures up to 2,000 degrees. As the huge cranes pulled steel beams from the pile, safety experts worried about the effects of the extreme heat on the crane rigging and the hazards of contact with the hot steel. And they were concerned that applying water to cool the steel could cause a steam explosion"-
Publication:20121014233501 - 911Encyclopedia

The temperature at the core of "the pile," is near 2000 degrees Fahrenheit, according to fire officials
ABCNEWS.com : Recovery Continues; No New Survivors

The US&R Teams were provided access to thermal imagery and began superimposing thermal data on collapse maps in October. This thermal imagery was collected on the same over flights of the WTC as the airborne LIDAR data that was being used to map the surface elevations each day. The National Information and Mapping Agency (NIMA), located at Pier 90 produced these maps. Firefighters and other responders contended with intense heat associated with the super-heated steel for weeks; some were coming back from shifts with the bottoms of their boots melted.
School of Engineering & Applied Science at The George Washington University: Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management (ICDRM)

"Two weeks after the attack, the rubble, the Pile, is still 7 stories tall. Below, in the Pit it burns like the gates of hell. It is 1200 degrees, so hot that the steel work lifted by the grapplers comes out soft. I've never seen anything like this" -Capt. Susanne Caviness conversation with FDNY Firefighter -
Publication:20121015005452 - 911Encyclopedia


The list goes on.
This was not just 2-3 isolated observances or scant mentioning of the melted steel, and the blatant flagrant disregard and dismissal of this by NIST is shameful. But again, this depends whether you want to look at what is available objectively, or not.

Someone just recently provided a link to an article about NASA imaging of ground zero soon after 9/11. According to that, while there were hot spots detected, there was no molten metal confirmed by the images. And I'm not certain what areas of extreme heat after such an event is supposed to suggest. I also don't think it said anything about these hot spots lasting 100 days after the event; I believe it talked about a week or two after, and how the number of hot spots was down to a few a couple of weeks after 9/11.

Are we trying to trivialize this still? Look ,if the thermal imaging said that the temps were so hot at a certain location, would it not stand to reason that they would be even hotter below, from where they were emanating from?
Remember that the towers initially, were said to have collapsed due to the fires being hot enough, to melt the steel, then when they realized that the temps were not this great, they changed the story to only "weakened" the steel, and many of you followed suit but we have these extremely hot and intense fires and heat that was capable of MELTING steel? Do you not WANT see the obvious controversy? Can you not at least understand why some people think there was definitely something else that cause this, that NIST did not want to touch on?

Only 2 of the 3 that fell that day were impacted by planes, You can't use "jetfueled" fires when it comes to WTC 7., but it too experienced extreme rubble pile fires and heat.
This leads many to speculate that something was fueling these extremes, and sustaining them for 100 days or so.
I'll post what I have about the fires duration if you like. It is well known they lasted this long underground, in what would seemingly be a low oxygen environment.

There is also a question of whether NIST intentionally disregarded important evidence, or disregarded evidence that had nothing to do with the collapse, or didn't actually disregard evidence at all.

This depends on what you personally feel is important to you. You do know that NIST is not 100% sure of a lot of what they speculated on, so I would think that everything should have been taken into consideration instead of just dismissing some of it.
Actually NIST only considered events and data leading up to collapse, and did not attempt to explain the actual collapse events themselves, which is not following through in their mission statement. If had been a thorough and accurate investigation, and they would have used everything they could regarding the events, there would not be so much criticism..
Again one must concentrate on what within their body of work, is so convincing to you that you are willing to disregard their flagrant disregard for scientific integrity.

I have read the critics, and have read where in the NIST work they have a problem with it, and I have to agree with many of them and their positions. The disregard of the molten steel is just one instance.

Now about those fires and their testing? Did it fair better then this instance?

You are like a robot ... BS in = BS out.
Some of those quotes do not even mention steel, others, like Geyh were quoting what they heard from others (she was told about molten steel by an unknown source). Robertson said "molten metal" which was changed to "molten steel" by the author of that article (whose notes said "molten metal"). None of those listed actually tested the molten mats. You already know these facts but as predicted you simply ignore the truth because it conflicts with your pre-determined conclusions.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

How are you defining 'reporting' and 'confirming'? What I've seen is reports of molten metal, or molten steel, but not confirmation of it.

Well,many people reported seeing it, and reported the persistent fires that would flare up as pieces of debris were being removed. Some saw it, and some reported that they were told by others who said they saw it. There can be no denying something like this that so many agreed that they themselves saw it or knew of it. It was reported as news worthy to mention by news outlets as well.
A photographer wrote a book about it, after he was there on the ground and witnessed this. He was at GZ for months after the event. He said that the ground in places was so hot it melted the workers boots.
"The surface was so hot that standing too long in one spot softened and even melted the soles of our safety shoes."
Publication:20121014021016 - 911Encyclopedia

Structural Engineer Abolhassan Astaneh-
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
Abolhassan Astaneh - 911Encyclopedia
Online NewsHour: Report | Overpass Collapse Becomes Lesson | May 10, 2007 | PBS

Chaplain Herb Trimpe reported what he was told by many contractors-
"I talked to many contractors and they said they actually saw molten metal trapped, beams had just totally had been melted because of the heat."
Publication:20121014030604 - 911Encyclopedia

FDNY Captain Ruvolo -
"You'd get down below and you'd see molten steel -- molten steel! -- running down the channel rails. Like you're in a foundry... like lava... from a volcano."
Publication:20121014042540 - 911Encyclopedia

Also search and rescue teams -
Penn Arts and Sciences, Summer 2002. Penn SAS Summer 2002 -- K-9/11

Dr Keith Eaton, Chief Executive of the London-based Institution of Structural Engineers-
“molten metal which was still red-hot weeks after the event,” as well as “four-inch thick steel plates sheered and bent in the disaster.”
Dr Keith Eaton, The Structural Engineer 3, September 2002
"They showed us many fascinating slides" ... "ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster."
Publication:20121013062331 - 911Encyclopedia

Many confirmed these reports, like Joe Allbaugh, director of FEMA,
http://web.archive.org/web/20031211095910/http://www.fema.gov/doc/diz01/gumbel1004.doc

Leslie Robertson saw it with his own eyes and confirms what he described as a "little river of STEEL flowing" after a firefighter showed it to him.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmHqES_lto]Les Robertson Confirms Molten Metal in WTC Basement - YouTube[/ame]
He also stated-
“...as of 21 days after the attack the fires were still burning and molten steel still running.”
He is mentioned about this by James Williams, “WTC a Structural Success,” SEAU NEWS, The Newsletter of the Structural Engineers Association of Utah, October 2001,

"descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams." -
Publication:20121014062821 - 911Encyclopedia

Alison Geyh, PhD. -
"In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel."
Publication:20121014064156 - 911Encyclopedia

Ron Burger -
"Feeling the heat, seeing the molten steel, the layers upon layers of ash, like lava, it reminded me of Mt. St. Helens and the thousands who fled that disaster"
Publication:20121014070613 - 911Encyclopedia

Guy Lounsbury of New York Air National Guard's 109th Air Wing -
"Smoke constantly poured from the peaks. One fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers' remains. Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots.
Publication:20121014075453 - 911Encyclopedia

William Langewiesche -
"the ominous groaning of weakened structures overhead, or, in the early days, the streams of molten metal that leaked from the hot cores and flowed down broken walls inside the foundation hole."
Publication:20121014082758 - 911Encyclopedia

Lee Turner of The Boone County Firefighters -
He remembers seeing in the darkness a distant, pinkish glow–molten metal dripping from a beam–but found no signs of life.
Publication:20121013070727 - 911Encyclopedia

Greg Fuchek -
"In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel"
Publication:20121014083815 - 911Encyclopedia

Joe O'Toole FDNY -
O'Toole remembers in February seeing a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. "It was dripping from the molten steel,"
Publication:20121014085539 - 911Encyclopedia

Kenneth Holden, Commissioner of the New York City Department of Design and Construction-
"Underground, it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from Building 6."
Publication:20121014090955 - 911Encyclopedia

Richard Garlock, structural engineer for LERA -
Going below, it was smoky and really hot... The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running."
Publication:20121014091549 - 911Encyclopedia

Jim McKay, Post-Gazette Staff Writer interviewing Vance Deisingnore, OSHA Officer at WTC -
"a fire truck 10 feet below the ground that was still burning two weeks after the towers collapsed, its metal so hot it looked like a vat of molten steel."
Publication:20121014095123 - 911Encyclopedia

Ed Pfister, Disaster Medical Assistance Team -
"I spent several hours tonight, walking "the pile" and attempting to soak it all in for the last time and find a bit of closure...deep below ground a portion of the pile was still on fire and boiled with molten material. Sometimes, open flame would erupt as a crane pulled debris out and air rushed in. Fire hoses constantly poured streams of water causing huge billowing steam clouds to rise up over the site into the huge lights above."
Publication:20121014102509 - 911Encyclopedia

Larry Keating, Danny Doyle, Mike Emerson and Bobby Graves -- are veteran ironworkers in Local 40. -
Publication:20121014104642 - 911Encyclopedia

Fire Department Chief Mike Donoho of Texas Task Force 1 Urban Search and Rescue -
"What you had were large columns of steel that were just stuck into massive amounts of molten steel and other metals, that had just fused together from the heat and bonded together from the strength of the collapse. It looked like a massive, molten mess that had been fused together, like a car that had been cubed and crushed. With all that heavy, heavy stuff, there were wires, rebar, concrete. Most of it was just steel. A lot of what we were walking on was just molten steel. "
Publication:20121014105903 - 911Encyclopedia

Ben Robinson -
"The workers go through three pairs of rubber boots a day because they melt in the three-week-old fire of molten metal...the fire, molten metal, the lack of breathable air and 3000+ decomposing bodies."
Publication:20121014110600 - 911Encyclopedia

Thomas A. Cahill, a retired professor of physics and atmospheric science at the University of California, Davis-
"In mid-October, in the evening, when they would pull out a steel beam, the lower part would be glowing dull red, which indicates a temperature on the order of 500 to 600 °C. And we know that people were turning over pieces of concrete in December that would flash into fire - which requires about 300 °C. So the surface of the pile cooled rather rapidly, but the bulk of the pile stayed hot all the way to December."
Publication:20121010111025 - 911Encyclopedia

"Ferer was one of several people in a visiting United Services Organization (USO)-Tribeca group who had lost family members. As they visited troops, they carried Port Authority pins, baseball caps, and a piece of molten steel from the WTC." -
Publication:20121014112038 - 911Encyclopedia

"Even as the steel cooled, there was concern that the girders had become so hot that they could crumble when lifted by overhead cranes. As a result, additional safeguards were put in place to limit the dangers associated with lifting the damaged steel and to protect the workers in the vicinity. Another danger involved the high temperature of twisted steel pulled from the rubble. Underground fires burned at temperatures up to 2,000 degrees. As the huge cranes pulled steel beams from the pile, safety experts worried about the effects of the extreme heat on the crane rigging and the hazards of contact with the hot steel. And they were concerned that applying water to cool the steel could cause a steam explosion"-
Publication:20121014233501 - 911Encyclopedia

The temperature at the core of "the pile," is near 2000 degrees Fahrenheit, according to fire officials
ABCNEWS.com : Recovery Continues; No New Survivors

The US&R Teams were provided access to thermal imagery and began superimposing thermal data on collapse maps in October. This thermal imagery was collected on the same over flights of the WTC as the airborne LIDAR data that was being used to map the surface elevations each day. The National Information and Mapping Agency (NIMA), located at Pier 90 produced these maps. Firefighters and other responders contended with intense heat associated with the super-heated steel for weeks; some were coming back from shifts with the bottoms of their boots melted.
School of Engineering & Applied Science at The George Washington University: Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management (ICDRM)

"Two weeks after the attack, the rubble, the Pile, is still 7 stories tall. Below, in the Pit it burns like the gates of hell. It is 1200 degrees, so hot that the steel work lifted by the grapplers comes out soft. I've never seen anything like this" -Capt. Susanne Caviness conversation with FDNY Firefighter -
Publication:20121015005452 - 911Encyclopedia


The list goes on.
This was not just 2-3 isolated observances or scant mentioning of the melted steel, and the blatant flagrant disregard and dismissal of this by NIST is shameful. But again, this depends whether you want to look at what is available objectively, or not.

Someone just recently provided a link to an article about NASA imaging of ground zero soon after 9/11. According to that, while there were hot spots detected, there was no molten metal confirmed by the images. And I'm not certain what areas of extreme heat after such an event is supposed to suggest. I also don't think it said anything about these hot spots lasting 100 days after the event; I believe it talked about a week or two after, and how the number of hot spots was down to a few a couple of weeks after 9/11.

Are we trying to trivialize this still? Look ,if the thermal imaging said that the temps were so hot at a certain location, would it not stand to reason that they would be even hotter below, from where they were emanating from?
Remember that the towers initially, were said to have collapsed due to the fires being hot enough, to melt the steel, then when they realized that the temps were not this great, they changed the story to only "weakened" the steel, and many of you followed suit but we have these extremely hot and intense fires and heat that was capable of MELTING steel? Do you not WANT see the obvious controversy? Can you not at least understand why some people think there was definitely something else that cause this, that NIST did not want to touch on?

Only 2 of the 3 that fell that day were impacted by planes, You can't use "jetfueled" fires when it comes to WTC 7., but it too experienced extreme rubble pile fires and heat.
This leads many to speculate that something was fueling these extremes, and sustaining them for 100 days or so.
I'll post what I have about the fires duration if you like. It is well known they lasted this long underground, in what would seemingly be a low oxygen environment.

There is also a question of whether NIST intentionally disregarded important evidence, or disregarded evidence that had nothing to do with the collapse, or didn't actually disregard evidence at all.

This depends on what you personally feel is important to you. You do know that NIST is not 100% sure of a lot of what they speculated on, so I would think that everything should have been taken into consideration instead of just dismissing some of it.
Actually NIST only considered events and data leading up to collapse, and did not attempt to explain the actual collapse events themselves, which is not following through in their mission statement. If had been a thorough and accurate investigation, and they would have used everything they could regarding the events, there would not be so much criticism..
Again one must concentrate on what within their body of work, is so convincing to you that you are willing to disregard their flagrant disregard for scientific integrity.

I have read the critics, and have read where in the NIST work they have a problem with it, and I have to agree with many of them and their positions. The disregard of the molten steel is just one instance.

Now about those fires and their testing? Did it fair better then this instance?

You never get tired of handing the trolls their asses to them on a platter do you? notice there were four farts in a row from sockpuppet shill Sayit and 3 from other shill Dawgshit since your last post?

 

[Gamolon]

Don't we need high temps to overcome the steel? Didn't the temps within GZ confirm this?.

Wait.

This your argument above?

That extreme temps were needed to overcome the steel (melt the steel) in the towers, that high temperatures in the debris pile confirm this, and NIST didn't analyze the debris pile to see what caused these high temps so therefore NIST didn't investigate this properly?

Is this the case?

 

[Gamolon]

Here's your answer Mr. Jones on why/how the debris pile burned so hot and so long. No "mysterious" heat source.

A NATION CHALLENGED - THE FIREFIGHTERS - With Water and Sweat, Fighting the Most Stubborn Fire - NYTimes.com

As in a stubborn coal mine fire, the combustion taking place deep below the surface is in many places not a fire at all. Instead, oxygen is charring the surfaces of buried fuels in a slow burn more akin to what is seen in the glowing coals of a raked-over campfire. But the scale of the trade center burning is vast, with thousands of plastic computers, acres of flammable carpet, tons of office furniture and steel and reservoirs of hydraulic oil and other fuels piled upon one another.

''When you have a huge mass of materials deeply buried like this, it's sort of analogous to the Centralia mine fire,'' said Dr. Thomas J. Ohlemiller, a chemical engineer and fire expert at the National Institute of Standards and Technology in Gaithersburg, Md. ''Very little heat is lost, so the reaction can keep going at relatively low temperatures, provided you have a weak supply of oxygen coming through the debris.''

 

[daws101]

How are you defining 'reporting' and 'confirming'? What I've seen is reports of molten metal, or molten steel, but not confirmation of it.

Well,many people reported seeing it, and reported the persistent fires that would flare up as pieces of debris were being removed. Some saw it, and some reported that they were told by others who said they saw it. There can be no denying something like this that so many agreed that they themselves saw it or knew of it. It was reported as news worthy to mention by news outlets as well.
A photographer wrote a book about it, after he was there on the ground and witnessed this. He was at GZ for months after the event. He said that the ground in places was so hot it melted the workers boots.
"The surface was so hot that standing too long in one spot softened and even melted the soles of our safety shoes."
Publication:20121014021016 - 911Encyclopedia

Structural Engineer Abolhassan Astaneh-
"I saw melting of girders in World Trade Center."
Abolhassan Astaneh - 911Encyclopedia
Online NewsHour: Report | Overpass Collapse Becomes Lesson | May 10, 2007 | PBS

Chaplain Herb Trimpe reported what he was told by many contractors-
"I talked to many contractors and they said they actually saw molten metal trapped, beams had just totally had been melted because of the heat."
Publication:20121014030604 - 911Encyclopedia

FDNY Captain Ruvolo -
"You'd get down below and you'd see molten steel -- molten steel! -- running down the channel rails. Like you're in a foundry... like lava... from a volcano."
Publication:20121014042540 - 911Encyclopedia

Also search and rescue teams -
Penn Arts and Sciences, Summer 2002. Penn SAS Summer 2002 -- K-9/11

Dr Keith Eaton, Chief Executive of the London-based Institution of Structural Engineers-
“molten metal which was still red-hot weeks after the event,” as well as “four-inch thick steel plates sheered and bent in the disaster.”
Dr Keith Eaton, The Structural Engineer 3, September 2002
"They showed us many fascinating slides" ... "ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster."
Publication:20121013062331 - 911Encyclopedia

Many confirmed these reports, like Joe Allbaugh, director of FEMA,
http://web.archive.org/web/20031211095910/http://www.fema.gov/doc/diz01/gumbel1004.doc

Leslie Robertson saw it with his own eyes and confirms what he described as a "little river of STEEL flowing" after a firefighter showed it to him.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjmHqES_lto]Les Robertson Confirms Molten Metal in WTC Basement - YouTube[/ame]
He also stated-
“...as of 21 days after the attack the fires were still burning and molten steel still running.”
He is mentioned about this by James Williams, “WTC a Structural Success,” SEAU NEWS, The Newsletter of the Structural Engineers Association of Utah, October 2001,

"descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams." -
Publication:20121014062821 - 911Encyclopedia

Alison Geyh, PhD. -
"In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel."
Publication:20121014064156 - 911Encyclopedia

Ron Burger -
"Feeling the heat, seeing the molten steel, the layers upon layers of ash, like lava, it reminded me of Mt. St. Helens and the thousands who fled that disaster"
Publication:20121014070613 - 911Encyclopedia

Guy Lounsbury of New York Air National Guard's 109th Air Wing -
"Smoke constantly poured from the peaks. One fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers' remains. Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots.
Publication:20121014075453 - 911Encyclopedia

William Langewiesche -
"the ominous groaning of weakened structures overhead, or, in the early days, the streams of molten metal that leaked from the hot cores and flowed down broken walls inside the foundation hole."
Publication:20121014082758 - 911Encyclopedia

Lee Turner of The Boone County Firefighters -
He remembers seeing in the darkness a distant, pinkish glow–molten metal dripping from a beam–but found no signs of life.
Publication:20121013070727 - 911Encyclopedia

Greg Fuchek -
"In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel"
Publication:20121014083815 - 911Encyclopedia

Joe O'Toole FDNY -
O'Toole remembers in February seeing a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. "It was dripping from the molten steel,"
Publication:20121014085539 - 911Encyclopedia

Kenneth Holden, Commissioner of the New York City Department of Design and Construction-
"Underground, it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from Building 6."
Publication:20121014090955 - 911Encyclopedia

Richard Garlock, structural engineer for LERA -
Going below, it was smoky and really hot... The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running."
Publication:20121014091549 - 911Encyclopedia

Jim McKay, Post-Gazette Staff Writer interviewing Vance Deisingnore, OSHA Officer at WTC -
"a fire truck 10 feet below the ground that was still burning two weeks after the towers collapsed, its metal so hot it looked like a vat of molten steel."
Publication:20121014095123 - 911Encyclopedia

Ed Pfister, Disaster Medical Assistance Team -
"I spent several hours tonight, walking "the pile" and attempting to soak it all in for the last time and find a bit of closure...deep below ground a portion of the pile was still on fire and boiled with molten material. Sometimes, open flame would erupt as a crane pulled debris out and air rushed in. Fire hoses constantly poured streams of water causing huge billowing steam clouds to rise up over the site into the huge lights above."
Publication:20121014102509 - 911Encyclopedia

Larry Keating, Danny Doyle, Mike Emerson and Bobby Graves -- are veteran ironworkers in Local 40. -
Publication:20121014104642 - 911Encyclopedia

Fire Department Chief Mike Donoho of Texas Task Force 1 Urban Search and Rescue -
"What you had were large columns of steel that were just stuck into massive amounts of molten steel and other metals, that had just fused together from the heat and bonded together from the strength of the collapse. It looked like a massive, molten mess that had been fused together, like a car that had been cubed and crushed. With all that heavy, heavy stuff, there were wires, rebar, concrete. Most of it was just steel. A lot of what we were walking on was just molten steel. "
Publication:20121014105903 - 911Encyclopedia

Ben Robinson -
"The workers go through three pairs of rubber boots a day because they melt in the three-week-old fire of molten metal...the fire, molten metal, the lack of breathable air and 3000+ decomposing bodies."
Publication:20121014110600 - 911Encyclopedia

Thomas A. Cahill, a retired professor of physics and atmospheric science at the University of California, Davis-
"In mid-October, in the evening, when they would pull out a steel beam, the lower part would be glowing dull red, which indicates a temperature on the order of 500 to 600 °C. And we know that people were turning over pieces of concrete in December that would flash into fire - which requires about 300 °C. So the surface of the pile cooled rather rapidly, but the bulk of the pile stayed hot all the way to December."
Publication:20121010111025 - 911Encyclopedia

"Ferer was one of several people in a visiting United Services Organization (USO)-Tribeca group who had lost family members. As they visited troops, they carried Port Authority pins, baseball caps, and a piece of molten steel from the WTC." -
Publication:20121014112038 - 911Encyclopedia

"Even as the steel cooled, there was concern that the girders had become so hot that they could crumble when lifted by overhead cranes. As a result, additional safeguards were put in place to limit the dangers associated with lifting the damaged steel and to protect the workers in the vicinity. Another danger involved the high temperature of twisted steel pulled from the rubble. Underground fires burned at temperatures up to 2,000 degrees. As the huge cranes pulled steel beams from the pile, safety experts worried about the effects of the extreme heat on the crane rigging and the hazards of contact with the hot steel. And they were concerned that applying water to cool the steel could cause a steam explosion"-
Publication:20121014233501 - 911Encyclopedia

The temperature at the core of "the pile," is near 2000 degrees Fahrenheit, according to fire officials
ABCNEWS.com : Recovery Continues; No New Survivors

The US&R Teams were provided access to thermal imagery and began superimposing thermal data on collapse maps in October. This thermal imagery was collected on the same over flights of the WTC as the airborne LIDAR data that was being used to map the surface elevations each day. The National Information and Mapping Agency (NIMA), located at Pier 90 produced these maps. Firefighters and other responders contended with intense heat associated with the super-heated steel for weeks; some were coming back from shifts with the bottoms of their boots melted.
School of Engineering & Applied Science at The George Washington University: Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management (ICDRM)

"Two weeks after the attack, the rubble, the Pile, is still 7 stories tall. Below, in the Pit it burns like the gates of hell. It is 1200 degrees, so hot that the steel work lifted by the grapplers comes out soft. I've never seen anything like this" -Capt. Susanne Caviness conversation with FDNY Firefighter -
Publication:20121015005452 - 911Encyclopedia


The list goes on.
This was not just 2-3 isolated observances or scant mentioning of the melted steel, and the blatant flagrant disregard and dismissal of this by NIST is shameful. But again, this depends whether you want to look at what is available objectively, or not.


Are we trying to trivialize this still? Look ,if the thermal imaging said that the temps were so hot at a certain location, would it not stand to reason that they would be even hotter below, from where they were emanating from?
Remember that the towers initially, were said to have collapsed due to the fires being hot enough, to melt the steel, then when they realized that the temps were not this great, they changed the story to only "weakened" the steel, and many of you followed suit but we have these extremely hot and intense fires and heat that was capable of MELTING steel? Do you not WANT see the obvious controversy? Can you not at least understand why some people think there was definitely something else that cause this, that NIST did not want to touch on?

Only 2 of the 3 that fell that day were impacted by planes, You can't use "jetfueled" fires when it comes to WTC 7., but it too experienced extreme rubble pile fires and heat.
This leads many to speculate that something was fueling these extremes, and sustaining them for 100 days or so.
I'll post what I have about the fires duration if you like. It is well known they lasted this long underground, in what would seemingly be a low oxygen environment.

There is also a question of whether NIST intentionally disregarded important evidence, or disregarded evidence that had nothing to do with the collapse, or didn't actually disregard evidence at all.

This depends on what you personally feel is important to you. You do know that NIST is not 100% sure of a lot of what they speculated on, so I would think that everything should have been taken into consideration instead of just dismissing some of it.
Actually NIST only considered events and data leading up to collapse, and did not attempt to explain the actual collapse events themselves, which is not following through in their mission statement. If had been a thorough and accurate investigation, and they would have used everything they could regarding the events, there would not be so much criticism..
Again one must concentrate on what within their body of work, is so convincing to you that you are willing to disregard their flagrant disregard for scientific integrity.

I have read the critics, and have read where in the NIST work they have a problem with it, and I have to agree with many of them and their positions. The disregard of the molten steel is just one instance.

Now about those fires and their testing? Did it fair better then this instance?

You never get tired of handing the trolls their asses to them on a platter do you? notice there were four farts in a row from sockpuppet shill Sayit and 3 from other shill Dawgshit since your last post?

and they let this guy breed.

 

[daws101]

Photographic evidence proves beyond a doubt that floors sagged, pulling perimeter columns in. An event some conspiracy sites suggest never happened.

With the fire proofing blown off, the fire only needed as little as 600 degrees C to deform the naked truss steel. Conspiracy theorists point to the UL tests which show the trusses sagged but never fail to say the building should have stood. But what conspiracy theorists don't tell you is that the test was done with a minimum of fire proofing on the trusses. The test was never meant to find out what caused the truss to fail. It was testing the fire proofing to see if it was up to code.


The 1968 New York City building code - the code that the towers were intended but not required to meet when they were built required a two-hour fire rating for the floor system.

Shyam Sunder, lead investigator of the NIST WTC investigation, explained that the four laboratory tests provide only a means for evaluating the relative fire resistance rating of the floor systems under standard fire conditions and according to accepted test procedures. Sunder cautioned, "These tests alone cannot be used to determine the actual performance of the floor systems in the collapse of the WTC towers. However, they are already providing valuable insight into the role that the floors may have played in causing the inward bowing of the perimeter columns minutes before both buildings collapsed."

"The fire conditions in the towers on 9-11 were far more extreme than those to which floor systems in standard U.S. fire rating tests are subjected," Sunder said to a group that gathered to watch yesterday's final test at Underwriters Laboratories (UL) in Northbrook, Ill. "Our investigation's final assessment of how the floor system performed in the WTC fires also must consider factors such as the combustible fuel load of the hijacked jets, the extent and number of floors involved, the rate of the fire spread across and between floors, ventilation conditions, and the impact of the aircraft-damaged towers' ability to resist the fire," Sunder said

NIST Tests Provide Fire Resistance Data On World Trade Center Floor Systems

This is more evidence conspiracy theorists are being dishonest when they point to these tests and suggest the building should not have collapsed. They KNOW this because this is old news.
Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories and Controlled Demolition - Sagging Trusses and Bowed Columns

 

[Montrovant]

Can we please not keep quoting that extremely long post?

 

[daws101]

Can we please not keep quoting that extremely long post?

which post is that?

 

[Montrovant]

Can we please not keep quoting that extremely long post?

which post is that?

The Mr. Jones post with all the links!

 

[daws101]

Can we please not keep quoting that extremely long post?

which post is that?

The Mr. Jones post with all the links!

oh! that one...

 

[Mr. Jones]

I'm not going to quote in order to save space.

I read the first 5+ links, then randomly clicked a couple more and read the summations.

First of all, there is very little that I could call confirmation of molten steel. In fact, in the links I clicked, I don't know if there was a single instance of a direct quote from someone claiming to have seen molten steel. It was a lot of, "This person said they saw molten steel" or, "These workers have been finding molten steel". So many of those links could easily have been molten aluminum.

Cmon man, You're trivializing this again. The point is that there were many reports, and confirmations from many sources. The other point is the NIST ignored all of them, As I been saying, this I considered damaging to their honesty, credibility, and integrity.

More, a few of the links describe temperatures within the debris well below the melting point of steel. That certainly doesn't lend credence to the idea that there was molten steel.

The links provided are in keeping with the spirit of the thread. Many have the same link, but if people bothered to click them it takes you to what link is available, in most cases. And again, there were more then 2-3 instances and sources that mentioned this phenomena, so IMO, it should have been looked into with more earnest effort by NIST.

That aside, perhaps a much more important question is if the fires would cause greater temperatures in the debris than in the towers before collapse? I believe you have talked about the impossibility of an open-air fire reaching the temperatures necessary to melt steel. Well, the fires underground in the debris were not open-air, were they?

This is the mystery. How could open air diffuse flame fires, first of all...get hot enough to overcome the steel support components of these buildings, without actually doing any melting, but be able to produce such extreme temps within the wreckage, and be sustained for so long a time??? I'm at a loss to explain this, and apparently NIST was too, which is why they ignored this and just passed over it...

I'd also point out that in one of the first links you provide, that to an article about Structural Engineer Abolhassan Astaneh, he says that the fires weakening the steel was the reason for the collapse.

Yes, following the links he talks about that bridge overpass that collapsed a few years ago, and mentions molten steel at the WTC when he was there in comparison.

BTW, Tho you seem to be having some degree of difficulty I appreciate you at least being open minded enough to keep this civil and interesting....for now at least.