The NIST 9-11 Report on the WTC Collapse

[SAYIT]

Because, as I mentioned numerous already...aluminum melts at a lower temp then steel...But, it gets rid of the heat faster then steel. This means that if it was aluminum that was melting, and running "like in a foundry" there had to be a very high, and constant heating source/fuel supply in order for the aluminum to react, and be in a constant state of melting. Where did this heat fuel source come from? How did it manage to last for 100 days despite constant efforts to extinguish it, and even resorting to thousands of gallons of pyrocool?
Steel on the other hand, will hold onto the heat longer then aluminum, still the source of the heat/fuel source to maintain the temps, in aluminum or steel, that were reported and measured remains a mystery.
My point is that NIST was charged with investigating any and all evidence, reported occurrences etc, and they did not. This is just one of the first instances that go against the investigative agency. By ignoring this, it shows they were not thorough, or complete.
This is my point.

What fuel source? Read above...

NIST was charged with supplying answers to your questions. They did not, and this is the point.

Aluminum melts slightly faster then steel but gets rid of its heat faster as well, therefore for aluminum to remain in a molten state, a constant source of extreme temps would be necessary for it to perform this rapid heat transfer, and STILL remain molten.
I haven't seen anyone present how much solid aluminum compared to other metals such as iron/steel there was, anyone have any figures OTHER THEN dust, which we're not talking about at this time?




I'm still waiting for anyone to post the numbers of the quantity of aluminum vs steel.
Not dust sample info.

The pools of molten steel/metal were being discovered weeks after the event, and were being uncovered in deep pockets as they proceeded along in the removal of wreckage.
This is what should have been answered by NIST. It's not like they had no time, or budget or enough people to investigate this. Why they didn't we can only speculate about.

Aluminums more efficient heat transfer rate means that an even greater and constant heat source was initiating the melting.

Look, the WTC towers were made from mostly steel concrete. The core, outer perimeter, trusses, and other supporting components were not fucking aluminum. Molten aluminum is silver in color, steel is orange. I've welded both and seen with my own eyes the difference.
My point in bringing this up first is that it is a main instance of NIST incompetence, or deliberate act of ignoring this important phenomena.

So how much solid aluminum vs solid steel was there in the towers?
What about the testing NIST did that confirms or denies the temps within the towers?
Did their findings indicate any melted steel, that was seemingly confirmed by the melted
components in the piles, and the validation of extreme temps?

IMO,NIST should have just confirmed that there was melted steel in the piles, and blamed it on extreme heat. This would have severely quieted the opposition, but they didn't and this was a big, obvious red flag. Or was it a clue? Could the people at NIST have been leaving a trail of these clues for others to notice, while they were being pressured to write a report on behalf of a demanded agenda?
This speculation can be discussed later, but for now I think I made my point.

Why would the NIST study confirm that which they did not find? That makes absolutely no sense. You based your particular CT on fires burning too hot to be an office fire using speculation about molten steel as proof. Unfortunately for you no molten steel was identified and no evidence of super secret stuff that could melt steel was found.
Finally, you assume NIST investigators were "pressured to write a report on behalf of a demanded agenda" yet provide no evidence of that pressure.
Simply put, you make assumptions to serve your bottom line because you are driven by an agenda that has nothing to do with facts or truth but rather speculation and assumptions.

 

[Montrovant]

Re: Molten Aluminum at 1800F - YouTube

What would it look like after you exposed it to the massive amounts of dust and debris in the tower collapses? I would think that might make any molten metal have a different coloration.

The WTC was encased in aluminum cladding, on the outside perimeter. These perimeters allegedly peeled away or blown away...AWAY from the centers of the buildings were the extreme temps were found. Imaging confirms this.
I posted the properties of aluminum and fire/heat effects on it.
There was more steel then aluminum.
Aluminum is silver. Steel is orange when melted.
Aluminum melts at a lower temp then steel, but rids itself of the heat faster.
So we both do not know what was the fuel source and why it maintained the extreme temps for weeks after the event.
NIST did not supply answers for this phenomena, despite it being known, confirmed.

This thread deals with the NIST report and its instances that are being questioned and criticized, this is one of them.
I'm ready to move on to the testing if any of you would care to post what you have about that would be great.

In summary we have extreme temps, that were not addressed in the deep piles of the WTC buildings. The chances of it being aluminum are dismal at best.
WTC 7 experienced the same thing, and it was not covered in aluminum cladding, which we can discuss further down the road.

Again post up what you got on the NIST testing, maybe we can find some answers there.

If molten metal was found in the debris after the collapses, then the aluminum panels being blown away from the towers during the collapse is irrelevant. That is only a concern if discussing molten metal from inside the buildings prior to the collapse. Even then, it could be metal from the planes, or from office furniture or equipment inside had melted. I'm not sure how to be certain the molten metal was steel. And if we are talking about pools of molten metal in the debris, then anything that was in the towers could account for it.

The fact that aluminum melts at a lower temperature actually would seem to bolster the idea that any molten metal seen was aluminum. The fact that aluminum cools more rapidly is unimportant if it did not have a cooler surrounding into which to dump the heat. So, molten metals trapped in pockets of heat in the debris would not cool, whatever the metal might be.

Unless it is your contention that so much molten metal was at the site that it was too much to have been made by the amount of aluminum in the towers, I don't see how the fact that there was more steel than aluminum is relevant.

As I brought up before, I wonder if the color of whatever molten metal might have been present would be effected by the massive amounts of dust and debris to be found at the site. Is molten aluminum a silver color after pouring it into, say, powdered concrete? Also, if it was hot enough, pictures that others have provided show that both aluminum and steel appear orange in a molten state. So I would need a bit more information as to what, exactly was seen and why it should be assumed it could not have been aluminum.

It's been pointed out already that the fact aluminum cools more quickly than steel does not prevent molten aluminum from having been present at ground zero. If there were areas where the temperature remained high enough, or if the observers simply saw the molten metal before it had time to cool off, aluminum could still have easily been what was present.

I don't know what was burning for weeks at ground zero. The amount of debris leads me to believe that there could easily have been fuel for fires for a long time after the collapses.

How was the presence of molten metal confirmed? Was it confirmed what type of metal it was?

In all of this, I still am more than willing to accept the possibility of errors or outright falsifications in the NIST report. However, I still see it as only a possibility.

 

[daws101]

Why would the NIST study confirm that which they did not find? That makes absolutely no sense. You based your particular CT on fires burning too hot to be an office fire using speculation about molten steel as proof. Unfortunately for you no molten steel was identified and no evidence of super secret stuff that could melt steel was found.
Finally, you assume NIST investigators were "pressured to write a report on behalf of a demanded agenda" yet provide no evidence of that pressure.
Simply put, you make assumptions to serve your bottom line because you are driven by an agenda that has nothing to do with facts or truth but rather speculation and assumptions.

major bump!

 

[Politico]

Yay another copy and paste 9/11 thread.

 

[SAYIT]

Yay another copy and paste 9/11 thread.

It doesn't seem possible that 11+ yrs after 9/11 there are still CT stragglers trying to sell their particular spin on the story. In fact, it seems downright silly.

 

[Mr. Jones]

I said no such thing.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/6913451-post104.html

Are you implying that the WTC was comprised of more aluminum then steel?

Here is your quote.

Aluminum melts slightly faster then steel but gets rid of its heat faster as well, therefore for aluminum to remain in a molten state, a constant source of extreme temps would be necessary for it to perform this rapid heat transfer, and STILL remain molten.

You're all over the place Mr. Jones.

You stand corrected, as I did not say what you accused me of saying. Again are you saying that there was more aluminum in the WTC towers then steel? Easy question to answer.

Do you understand what heat transfer is and what thermal conductivity is? If the aluminum inside the debris pile is surrounded by objects of the same temperature, where is it going to transfer it's heat to?

Are you saying that this molten aluminum was in the debris piles, most of them if not all of them were in the centers of such wreckage, and deep as 70 feet.
The WTC towers were clad in aluminum skin on the outside perimeter and they fell away or were forcibly ejected AWAY from center.

The reason aluminum heat sinks work inside computers (on a processor) for example is that aluminum (or copper) heat sink is kept cool by a constant flow of cool air flowing over it. The cooler (do to the flow of air) aluminum (or copper) heat sink continually pulls the heat from the hotter processor into itself do to the high thermal conductivity properties AND the flow of cooler air.
If I insulated the entire computer and had no airflow, the heat sink has nowhere to release the heat to. If I put one fan in there, it will transfer heat according to the amount of airflow. The more fans I put in, the more effective it becomes.

No fucking shit
Did you mange to finally look at the links I provided that explains this? If so, then why can't you understand that this process itself makes the possibility of aluminum being what was described as these molten wreckage piles,centered and some 70 feet deep, with minimal oxygen let alone air flow.

So again, if the molten aluminum in the debris pile is the same temperature of surrounding objects, where does it "rapidly transfer" its heat to?

Do you still not get it? Aluminum will cool faster then steel, and in order for it to be in a molten state for 100 days is very highly unlikely.
You need to answer how much aluminum was in the towers compared to steel, and where the aluminum was place throughout the building. You need to explain what the fuel source was that kept either aluminum or steel in this state or close to it, with little to no oxygen for 100 days.

The problem here is that extreme temps after the collapses were reported, documented, and confirmed, and NIST ignored it. I will venture to say because they are smart enough to know this would be a hard issue to address later on because, the fires within the towers had to be sustained at a temp that could melt steel and other metals if the rubble piles had them, and in order for it to be within the deep rubble piles for 3 months, and they would need a fuel source to maintain them. A fuel source that could be sustained with minimal oxygen, and that again, could melt steel or aluminum like was reported and confirmed.

Again I'll ask -How much aluminum was there in comparison to steel?
what testing did NIST do to confirm the extreme high temps needed to produce this molten steel or aluminum?
What testing did NIST do to confirm temps necessary to even weaken steel support structures, and cause a total global collapse?

What we have found in this part of the discussion is that -
NIST was not diligent or thorough in this part of their investigation.
By ignoring a widely reported and confirmed phenomena by seemingly credible personnel and satellite imaging.
They did not say that the molten piles were aluminum, like you are assuming. Why not? Because they knew the fires could not have been capable of reaching such extreme temps..and sustained for 100 days...
Because these reports were blatantly ignored it is up to others to speculate on how this could have occurred, especially since the fires within the towers were reported to not have been capable of reaching such extreme temps.

We can speculate what probably caused these extremes, but I think we should see what NIST has to say about their fire testing to see if any of them provided any possibility of intense sustainable temps to cause such a phenomena, and also to fail the support structure.

 

[daws101]

Below is a message from Stephen D. Chastain of Metal Talk.


Several times over the last year I have been asked to comment on a photo of one of the Trade Center Towers. The photo shows a molten flow from one of the windows. The flow falls down along the building. It appears orange and turns to a gray color as it cools.

The questions usually want me to address "Is this photo a fake?" and "Is the flow steel or aluminum?" "Is this situation possible?"

First, I will address the temperature range, then the color of the flow.

I am working in imperial units and temperature in degrees F [To convert to C use this link]

Metals lose about 50% of their strength at 60% of their melting temperature. This is common knowledge and may be found in any undergraduate text regarding "Fracture and Deformation of Materials."

If the approximate melting temperature of steel is 2750 F the the material would be plastic at 1650 F. Even assuming a safety factor of 3, you would expect the bolts or other structural members to deform and fail near this temperature, especially with the additional weight if a jet air liner. I would assume that the live load calculations did not include the typical office equipment and an airliner plus a factor of 3. THEREFORE I assume that the flow is not steel and that the temperature of the steel members at the time of the photo is less than 1650 F.

Assuming that the flow would be molten aluminum from the airliner and the color of molten aluminum is silver then why is the flow orange?

The color of pure molten aluminum is silver, It has an emissivity of .12. Steel has an emissivity of .4 and appears orange in the temperature range of molten aluminum.

The emissivity of aluminum oxide is .44 and also appears orange in the melting temperature range of molten aluminum.

The emissivity of plate glass is .937 It begins to soften at 1000 F and flows around 1350 F. Silica has an emissivity of .8

Copper oxide also has an emissivity of .8. however I will assume that their effect is negligible.

Aluminum oxidizes readily in the foundry under ideal melting conditions. Large surface area relative to thickness, turbulence, the presence of water or oil greatly increases the oxidation of aluminum. A jet airliner is made of thin aluminum sheet and most probably suffered considerable oxidation especially in contact with an open flame and being in contact with jet fuel. If you don't believe this, try melting a few soda cans over coals or open flame. If you are lucky you will end up with only 50% aluminum oxide. However, the cans may completely burn up.

The specific gravity of aluminum is 2.7. The specific gravity of aluminum oxide (Al2O3-3H2O) is 2.42 the specific gravity of Si = 2.40 and Glass is 2.65 these are all very similar and likely to be entrained in a molten aluminum flow. Don't believe it? lightly stir the dross into molten aluminum. The surface tension is so high is is almost impossible to separate them.

THEREFORE assuming that the flow consist of molten aluminum and considerable oxides, and assuming that the windows in the trade center were plate glass and also in a plastic state and that they were also likely entrained in the molten aluminum. I would expect the flow to appear to be orange in color. Especially since both the entrained materials have emissivities equal to or more than twice that of iron.

Also since dross cools to a gray color and glass with impurities also turns dark. I would expect that the flow would darken upon cooling.

I would also suggest that not only is the photo possible, but entirely likely.

Summary: The flow is not steel because the structural steel would fail well below the melting temperature. The flow is likely to be a mixture of aluminum, aluminum oxides, molten glass and coals of whatever trash the aluminum flowed over as it reached the open window. Such a flow would appear orange and cool to a dark color.

Stephen D. Chastain
Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories and Controlled Demolition - Molten Steel



NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface."

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

 

[daws101]

[ame=http://youtu.be/DhHzMttUKO0]9/11 Debunked: "Molten Metal" Explained - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Mr. Jones]

Why would the NIST study confirm that which they did not find? That makes absolutely no sense.

The point is, that NIST ignored, and chose to NOT be diligent concerning these reports. You wont find anything if you're not looking for it, and this is one of the problems with NIST that I am trying to point out.
You all have tried to deny the confirmed reports of extreme temps that caused steel or aluminum to be in a molten state, just like NIST did, but you don't ask yourselves why did NIST act this way?
They could have just said yes there was molten metal, and moved on.
I have also explained and linked to info about aluminum.
I have also asked anyone to provide a solid link with info about how much aluminum vs steel there was in the towers, and where the aluminum was placed throughout the building, with an emphasis on the molten piles being in the centers of the buildings, and being up to 70 feet deep.
This would mean the aluminum would have to be close to the centers of the towers.

You based your particular CT on fires burning too hot to be an office fire using speculation about molten steel as proof.

No actually I am trying to show an instance where NIST did not follow proper investigation procedures, and an instance that is a strike against their integrity in my book.

They ignored this phenomena, and never bothered to explain it, and this was wrong to do when they were charged as the responsible party to perform a thorough investigation.
We are trying to find out if NIST's conspiracy theory could be at all accurate based on the event itself, what was reported and confirmed, and what if anything did the NIST do regarding them. Purposefully ignoring numerous reports and confirmations regarding something like this, is blatant disregard for scientific integrity.

So far I can only conclude that they started early on knowing how hard this would be to explain, because their testing did not reveal any of these extreme temps or a fuel source to maintain them in their testing. Many are left wondering how such a prestigious government institution would behave in this manner, and I offered up what may have suggested as maybe one of the reasons why.

This is why we should move on to the part of the NIST report and their testing results to see what else it says that either confirms or denies any of the molten metals in the piles, and the temps and sustainability of them, and that melted or weakened the support structure.

This is not about MY CT, it's about theirs, and yours. I am trying to be open minded regarding this, to see if I can understand WHY you people have taken on the belief of their CT, and defend it so staunchly.
Is it because there is conclusive evidence that NIST could be right regarding their CT?
Or do you defend it because you just want to argue over it? Is it because YOU have an agenda and want to diffuse any mention of anything that reflects negatively on the NIST CT and in turn YOUR CT??

Unfortunately for you no molten steel was identified and no evidence of super secret stuff that could melt steel was found.

First off, NIST ignored the reports of molten steel. This was wrong to do, especially given all the confirmed reports of it by seemingly credible sources, and imaging.
And nothing was even considered as to what could have possibly caused such a phenomena, super secret or otherwise, and again this was wrong to do as well. They ignored a key piece of the event that was widely reported, so of course you can now say that no molten steel was ever identified. This is just evidence of how the NIST felt they could twist and shape their investigation any way they could, and molten steel underneath the wreckage piles, and extreme temps lasting for days did not fit in with their
explanation, but that does not mean it did not happen nor does it mean that it did not exist, it simply means NIST controlled what they felt was relevant in keeping with the OCT, planes and hijackers, and fires and gravity being the sole causes.

This was BS, and why I don't respect the integrity of their report, and how a person of good conscious and morals would overlook something like this speaks volumes about thier own integrity, honesty and truthfulness..

Finally, you assume NIST investigators were "pressured to write a report on behalf of a demanded agenda" yet provide no evidence of that pressure.

Well there are several choices one has to make to account for their blatant disregard for proper investigative procedures, and obfuscation tactics. I don't think the people at NIST are stupid, not in the least, so "pressured to write a report on behalf of a demanded agenda" is a possibility, especially when one considers how many Nobel Laureates signed a petition against the Bush administration regarding "junk science". What other possibilities come to mind when such blatant disregard for evidence, witnesses, and proper investigative and scientific procedures have taken place?
This phenomena should have been addressed instead of denied when first reports of it started to come in just hours after the attack.

Simply put, you make assumptions to serve your bottom line because you are driven by an agenda that has nothing to do with facts or truth but rather speculation and assumptions.

This is laughable, especially when all I did was offer up some suggestions as to why the NIST behaved the way they did regarding this instance and others I would like to point out as we move along.
This is not about MY CT, it is about trying to find out what in the NIST investigation and reports make you adhere to THEIR CT, and why you have made theirs your own.

This thread is about you all pointing out why you adhere to this CT, and I am trying to understand why you do. I also am pointing out instances along the way, why I do not
believe in their CT, and their assumptions, and theory.

The reporting and confirming of molten steel, and NIST ignoring it as being irrelevant is the first thing that I have noted here where I had lost respect for their integrity.
I can't understand why some of you feel they should get a pass in this huge instance.
Could it be that you need to in order to sustain your belief in YOUR CT?

I already stated what the purpose of starting this thread was for me, and all I'm trying to do is establish why you adhere to the OCT, and what evidence you hold as vital and convincing in order for you to be able to do this.
This will take a certain amount of open mindedness on the part of all participants, with being able to squash certain long held beliefs.
By you mentioning that I "have an agenda" or that I have am making "assumptions to serve a bottom line" is absurd and makes you sound like some nutty paranoid conspiracy theorist.
In fact you state that this alleged agenda of mine has nothing to do with the truth or facts, when it is I who is trying to understand what truths and facts YOU are going by that makes you adhere to your CT...

You have stated many times that you are open to the possibility that NIST could be wrong,
so why not be open minded when discussing are differing views?

In summary as I explained, I had lost respect for any integrity regarding NIST because of their blatant disregard for confirmed reports and confirmation from many credible sources regarding the molten steel issue.
Arguments have been presented including much speculation regarding this, unnecessary
speculation that NIST should have immediately dealt with.
We know for sure that many reports and confirmations happened, and we know NIST cowardly ignored dealing with them, and we can only speculate as to why they behaved this way. I suggested they were being pressured by the administration to make sure the finger stayed pointed to the narrative that was parroted within minutes of the attacks.

If you don't think this is possible, that is fine tho there are many who would disagree with you including Nobel Laureates. But we'll move on with you knowing this was one of the first instances that led me to doubt NIST credibility, and me knowing you have no regard for the testimony of many credible people that were on the ground at GZ, and thermal imaging, and that you think integrity is not important. We at least got that out of the way so-

Now what if anything does NIST say regarding the actual fires within the towers or the steel that they say the fires caused to fail?

 

[Mr. Jones]

Re: Molten Aluminum at 1800F - YouTube

bahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

AHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

It turns silver because it hits the cooler pan!!!!! Heat that pan up to 1800 degrees and see what happens!!!!

What you fail to realize Mr. Jones is that the objects in close proximity to each other INSIDE THE DEBRIS pile will be at the same temperature dependent on the heat source in that location.

It's like the molten aluminum (1220 F or higher) is touching a steel component in the same area at room temperature!

What you fail to understand is that the reports of molten anything were ignored by NIST, and this thread is about us trying to understand why we hold the opinions that we do.
NIST blatant disregard of this phenomena is one of the first instances where I lost respect for them. I already explained how unlikely it was to have been aluminum, because of the aluminums placement within the structure and the lower overall quantity of it compared to steel within the towers.
Ignoring something as important to the investigation is not what I consider good work, or a mistake. The people at such a prestigious agency as NIST are not stupid, and we should expect better from them.
People like you say that they didn't find any evidence of molten steel. People like me say that this is true because they ignored any mention of it and ignored looking into it.
How can a proper investigation be conducted when you blatantly ignoring things that are relevant to it?
Bottom line is,I am trying to understand how you came to your conclusion, and so far I see that ignoring things is one way.
I am the opposite, in that I become very skeptical when instances like this occur, so I look at what else they have to say, and look for other instances that either warrant or dimiss this behavior..

If anything we have concluded in this part of the discussion what we each feel is important and what is not.

Now would you like to point out what else you feel backs up the NIST theory and their assuming what they did about the actual fires within the towers?

 

[Mr. Jones]

Ok so...we have 3 buildings. 2 that were struck by planes, collapsed, and experienced molten steel, aluminum metal underneath their rubble wreckage. The reports of which were confirmed by satellite imagery, with extreme persistent heat from "fires" that were unable to be put out for 100 days or so.
Then we have the other building that WAS NOT hit by a plane, but experienced the same phenomena as the 2 towers.

I feel that an explanation should have been forthcoming, but instead they were dismissed or ignored. I feel that this was a total disregard for scientific honesty and integrity, while most of you don't care about such things.
Does that mean that all the people who reported and confirmed this are liars?
Were these people hallucinating?
Does this mean that none of this even existed?
No, it does not. It simply means NIST ignored this, so consequently you can not confirm what you outright refuse to search for and even acknowledge the existence of.

We have many people saying this indeed happened, we have confirmation of them, we have satellite imagery regarding the intense heat, and fires deep within the wreckage, that was not able to be extinguished, for 100 days.....And we have NIST ignoring almost all of this, and people feel that this is proper?
How can you justify this and call it an investigation that is honest and has integrity?

Perhaps you can tell us something that will redeem NIST by pointing something out in their testing regarding other aspects of fires and heat within the towers instead of underneath the wreckage as we have been discussing?
I await anything that any of you might like to introduce.
You have many experts who claimed that the fires killed the buildings to choose from, and I'm sure NIST has much to say about them as well.

 

[daws101]

Ok so...we have 3 buildings. 2 that were struck by planes, collapsed, and experienced molten steel, aluminum metal underneath their rubble wreckage. The reports of which were confirmed by satellite imagery, with extreme persistent heat from "fires" that were unable to be put out for 100 days or so.
Then we have the other building that WAS NOT hit by a plane, but experienced the same phenomena as the 2 towers.

I feel that an explanation should have been forthcoming, but instead they were dismissed or ignored. I feel that this was a total disregard for scientific honesty and integrity, while most of you don't care about such things.
Does that mean that all the people who reported and confirmed this are liars?
Were these people hallucinating?
Does this mean that none of this even existed?
No, it does not. It simply means NIST ignored this, so consequently you can not confirm what you outright refuse to search for and even acknowledge the existence of.

We have many people saying this indeed happened, we have confirmation of them, we have satellite imagery regarding the intense heat, and fires deep within the wreckage, that was not able to be extinguished, for 100 days.....And we have NIST ignoring almost all of this, and people feel that this is proper?
How can you justify this and call it an investigation that is honest and has integrity?

Perhaps you can tell us something that will redeem NIST by pointing something out in their testing regarding other aspects of fires and heat within the towers instead of underneath the wreckage as we have been discussing?
I await anything that any of you might like to introduce.
You have many experts who claimed that the fires killed the buildings to choose from, and I'm sure NIST has much to say about them as well.

who's US?

 

[Mr. Jones]

Ok so...we have 3 buildings. 2 that were struck by planes, collapsed, and experienced molten steel, aluminum metal underneath their rubble wreckage. The reports of which were confirmed by satellite imagery, with extreme persistent heat from "fires" that were unable to be put out for 100 days or so.
Then we have the other building that WAS NOT hit by a plane, but experienced the same phenomena as the 2 towers.

I feel that an explanation should have been forthcoming, but instead they were dismissed or ignored. I feel that this was a total disregard for scientific honesty and integrity, while most of you don't care about such things.
Does that mean that all the people who reported and confirmed this are liars?
Were these people hallucinating?
Does this mean that none of this even existed?
No, it does not. It simply means NIST ignored this, so consequently you can not confirm what you outright refuse to search for and even acknowledge the existence of.

We have many people saying this indeed happened, we have confirmation of them, we have satellite imagery regarding the intense heat, and fires deep within the wreckage, that was not able to be extinguished, for 100 days.....And we have NIST ignoring almost all of this, and people feel that this is proper?
How can you justify this and call it an investigation that is honest and has integrity?

Perhaps you can tell us something that will redeem NIST by pointing something out in their testing regarding other aspects of fires and heat within the towers instead of underneath the wreckage as we have been discussing?
I await anything that any of you might like to introduce.
You have many experts who claimed that the fires killed the buildings to choose from, and I'm sure NIST has much to say about them as well.

who's US?

Those of us that know what an idiot you are.

Anybody else want to take a shot at what I have asked or don't you have anything to validate your CT, other then to ask totally stupid questions like the one this idiot just asked?

 

[daws101]

About the NIST World Trade Center Investigation


GENESIS OF THIS INVESTIGATION

On August 21, 2002, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) announced its building and fire safety investigation of the World Trade Center (WTC) disaster.1 This WTC Investigation was then conducted under the authority of the National Construction Safety Team (NCST) Act, which was signed into law on October 1, 2002. A copy of the Public Law is included in AppendixA.

The goals of the investigation of the WTC disaster were:
•To investigate the building construction, the materials used, and the technical conditions that contributed to the outcome of the WTC disaster after terrorists flew large jet-fuel laden commercial airliners into the WTC towers.
•To serve as the basis for:
•Improvements in the way buildings are designed, constructed, maintained, and used;
•Improved tools and guidance for industry and safety officials;
•Recommended revisions to current codes, standards, and practices; and
•Improved public safety

The specific objectives were:
•Determine why and how WTC 1 and WTC 2 collapsed following the initial impacts of the aircraft and why and how WTC 7 collapsed;
•Determine why the injuries and fatalities were so high or low depending on location, including all technical aspects of fire protection, occupant behavior, evacuation, and emergency response;
•Determine what procedures and practices were used in the design, construction, operation, and maintenance of WTC 1, 2, and 7; and
•Identify, as specifically as possible, areas in current building and fire codes, standards, and practices that warrant revision.

ok ..sister jones the above is what nist did do .
it says nothing about testing for explosives or exotic accelerants.
if they did discover any of those they would have been turned over to the ATF.
NONE WERE FOUND....
YOUR accusations of wrong doing by NIST are unfounded.

 

[daws101]

Ok so...we have 3 buildings. 2 that were struck by planes, collapsed, and experienced molten steel, aluminum metal underneath their rubble wreckage. The reports of which were confirmed by satellite imagery, with extreme persistent heat from "fires" that were unable to be put out for 100 days or so.
Then we have the other building that WAS NOT hit by a plane, but experienced the same phenomena as the 2 towers.

I feel that an explanation should have been forthcoming, but instead they were dismissed or ignored. I feel that this was a total disregard for scientific honesty and integrity, while most of you don't care about such things.
Does that mean that all the people who reported and confirmed this are liars?
Were these people hallucinating?
Does this mean that none of this even existed?
No, it does not. It simply means NIST ignored this, so consequently you can not confirm what you outright refuse to search for and even acknowledge the existence of.

We have many people saying this indeed happened, we have confirmation of them, we have satellite imagery regarding the intense heat, and fires deep within the wreckage, that was not able to be extinguished, for 100 days.....And we have NIST ignoring almost all of this, and people feel that this is proper?
How can you justify this and call it an investigation that is honest and has integrity?

Perhaps you can tell us something that will redeem NIST by pointing something out in their testing regarding other aspects of fires and heat within the towers instead of underneath the wreckage as we have been discussing?
I await anything that any of you might like to introduce.
You have many experts who claimed that the fires killed the buildings to choose from, and I'm sure NIST has much to say about them as well.

who's US?

Those of us that know what an idiot you are.

Anybody else want to take a shot at what I have asked or don't you have anything to validate your CT, other then to ask totally stupid questions like the one this idiot just asked?

lol! so you have no real answer.

 

[Montrovant]

bahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

AHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

It turns silver because it hits the cooler pan!!!!! Heat that pan up to 1800 degrees and see what happens!!!!

What you fail to realize Mr. Jones is that the objects in close proximity to each other INSIDE THE DEBRIS pile will be at the same temperature dependent on the heat source in that location.

It's like the molten aluminum (1220 F or higher) is touching a steel component in the same area at room temperature!

What you fail to understand is that the reports of molten anything were ignored by NIST, and this thread is about us trying to understand why we hold the opinions that we do.
NIST blatant disregard of this phenomena is one of the first instances where I lost respect for them. I already explained how unlikely it was to have been aluminum, because of the aluminums placement within the structure and the lower overall quantity of it compared to steel within the towers.
Ignoring something as important to the investigation is not what I consider good work, or a mistake. The people at such a prestigious agency as NIST are not stupid, and we should expect better from them.
People like you say that they didn't find any evidence of molten steel. People like me say that this is true because they ignored any mention of it and ignored looking into it.
How can a proper investigation be conducted when you blatantly ignoring things that are relevant to it?
Bottom line is,I am trying to understand how you came to your conclusion, and so far I see that ignoring things is one way.
I am the opposite, in that I become very skeptical when instances like this occur, so I look at what else they have to say, and look for other instances that either warrant or dimiss this behavior..

If anything we have concluded in this part of the discussion what we each feel is important and what is not.

Now would you like to point out what else you feel backs up the NIST theory and their assuming what they did about the actual fires within the towers?

I haven't yet seen conclusive evidence there was ANY molten metal at the site.

However, I'm willing to proceed under the assumption that there was. It's certainly not all that hard to believe.

Your information about aluminum, and conclusions made about the possibility that it could have been the metal found in a molten state, do not seem logical to me.

First, whether there was more aluminum or steel in the towers is completely irrelevant. The only thing that matters is if there was enough of either to form the pools of molten metal witnessed. As far as I've seen thus far, there was plenty of both types of metal.

Next, the fact that aluminum cools more quickly than steel is also irrelevant. In either case, the material would almost surely have to have remained within a high temp environment to maintain a molten state as long as you have said (you've mentioned 100 days more than once).

Finally, the very properties of aluminum you have brought up seem to indicate it is the more likely metal to have been found in a molten state. It would require quite a bit less heat than steel would. The higher temperatures needed to melt steel would be less likely to occur and less likely to be sustained. So, if there was molten metal seen at GZ, and if it maintained a molten state for long periods of time, aluminum is a more convincing possibility than is steel.

I don't know that NIST ignored any reports of molten metal that they should have investigated. I have only seen a few supposed witnesses mentioned, some of which turned out not to have seen it themselves based on other quotes. Still, they may have ignored such evidence. I consider the NIST report neither infallible nor above reproach. Considering the nature of the event and the investigation, I don't think it should ever have been expected that the report would be anything more than educated guesswork. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, the conclusions made in the NIST report are simply reasonable enough that I haven't seen reason to think they were intentionally falsified.

Oh, and to be clear, the quote function has gotten messed up in some recent posts, that isn't me being quoted.

 

[Montrovant]

Ok so...we have 3 buildings. 2 that were struck by planes, collapsed, and experienced molten steel, aluminum metal underneath their rubble wreckage. The reports of which were confirmed by satellite imagery, with extreme persistent heat from "fires" that were unable to be put out for 100 days or so.
Then we have the other building that WAS NOT hit by a plane, but experienced the same phenomena as the 2 towers.

I feel that an explanation should have been forthcoming, but instead they were dismissed or ignored. I feel that this was a total disregard for scientific honesty and integrity, while most of you don't care about such things.
Does that mean that all the people who reported and confirmed this are liars?
Were these people hallucinating?
Does this mean that none of this even existed?
No, it does not. It simply means NIST ignored this, so consequently you can not confirm what you outright refuse to search for and even acknowledge the existence of.

We have many people saying this indeed happened, we have confirmation of them, we have satellite imagery regarding the intense heat, and fires deep within the wreckage, that was not able to be extinguished, for 100 days.....And we have NIST ignoring almost all of this, and people feel that this is proper?
How can you justify this and call it an investigation that is honest and has integrity?

Perhaps you can tell us something that will redeem NIST by pointing something out in their testing regarding other aspects of fires and heat within the towers instead of underneath the wreckage as we have been discussing?
I await anything that any of you might like to introduce.
You have many experts who claimed that the fires killed the buildings to choose from, and I'm sure NIST has much to say about them as well.

How are you defining 'reporting' and 'confirming'? What I've seen is reports of molten metal, or molten steel, but not confirmation of it.

Someone just recently provided a link to an article about NASA imaging of ground zero soon after 9/11. According to that, while there were hot spots detected, there was no molten metal confirmed by the images. And I'm not certain what areas of extreme heat after such an event is supposed to suggest. I also don't think it said anything about these hot spots lasting 100 days after the event; I believe it talked about a week or two after, and how the number of hot spots was down to a few a couple of weeks after 9/11.

There is also a question of whether NIST intentionally disregarded important evidence, or disregarded evidence that had nothing to do with the collapse, or didn't actually disregard evidence at all.

 

[daws101]

Ok so...we have 3 buildings. 2 that were struck by planes, collapsed, and experienced molten steel, aluminum metal underneath their rubble wreckage. The reports of which were confirmed by satellite imagery, with extreme persistent heat from "fires" that were unable to be put out for 100 days or so.
Then we have the other building that WAS NOT hit by a plane, but experienced the same phenomena as the 2 towers.

I feel that an explanation should have been forthcoming, but instead they were dismissed or ignored. I feel that this was a total disregard for scientific honesty and integrity, while most of you don't care about such things.
Does that mean that all the people who reported and confirmed this are liars?
Were these people hallucinating?
Does this mean that none of this even existed?
No, it does not. It simply means NIST ignored this, so consequently you can not confirm what you outright refuse to search for and even acknowledge the existence of.

We have many people saying this indeed happened, we have confirmation of them, we have satellite imagery regarding the intense heat, and fires deep within the wreckage, that was not able to be extinguished, for 100 days.....And we have NIST ignoring almost all of this, and people feel that this is proper?
How can you justify this and call it an investigation that is honest and has integrity?

Perhaps you can tell us something that will redeem NIST by pointing something out in their testing regarding other aspects of fires and heat within the towers instead of underneath the wreckage as we have been discussing?
I await anything that any of you might like to introduce.
You have many experts who claimed that the fires killed the buildings to choose from, and I'm sure NIST has much to say about them as well.

How are you defining 'reporting' and 'confirming'? What I've seen is reports of molten metal, or molten steel, but not confirmation of it.

Someone just recently provided a link to an article about NASA imaging of ground zero soon after 9/11. According to that, while there were hot spots detected, there was no molten metal confirmed by the images. And I'm not certain what areas of extreme heat after such an event is supposed to suggest. I also don't think it said anything about these hot spots lasting 100 days after the event; I believe it talked about a week or two after, and how the number of hot spots was down to a few a couple of weeks after 9/11.

There is also a question of whether NIST intentionally disregarded important evidence, or disregarded evidence that had nothing to do with the collapse, or didn't actually disregard evidence at all.

nist was tasked with specific duties not a generalized investigation, all of the so called "intentionally disregarded evidence" was out of their purview.. and investigated by other agencies : Here is a partial list of those who responded to and/or investigated the events:

1,500 people who worked the flight 93 crash scene
40,000 people who worked the piles at Ground Zero
55 FBI Evidence Response Teams at Fresh Kills in New York
7,000+ FBI Agents
8,000+ people who worked the scene at the Pentagon
ACE Bermuda Insurance
AEMC Construction
AIG Insurance
Air Traffic Control System Command Center in Washington
Alexandria VA Fire & Rescue
Allianz Global Risks
American Airlines
American Concrete Institute
American Institute of Steel Construction
American Red Cross
Applied Biosystems Inc.
Applied Research Associates
Arlington County Emergency Medical Services
Arlington County Fire Department
Arlington County Sheriff's Department
Arlington VA Police Department
Armed Forces Institute of Pathology
Armed Forces Institute of Technology Federal Advisory Committee
ARUP USA
Atlantic Heydt Inc.
Bechtel
Berlin Fire Department
Big Apple Wrecking
Blanford & Co.
Bode Technology Group
Bovis Inc.
Building and Construction Trades Council
Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms
C-130H crew in D.C. & Shanksville
Cal Berkeley Engineering Dept.
California Incident Management Team
Carter Burgess Engineering
Celera Genomics
Centers for Disease Control
Central City Fire Department
Central Intelligence Agency
Cleveland Airport control tower
Columbia University Department of Civil Engineering and Engineering Mechanics
Congressional Joint Intelligence Committee
Consolidated Edison Company
Construction Technologies Laboratory
Controlled Demolitions Inc.
Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat
Counterterrorism and Security Group
CTL Engineering
D.H. Griffin Wrecking Co. Inc.
DeSimone Consulting Engineers
Dewhurst MacFarlane &Partners
DiSalvo Ericson Engineering
District of Columbia Fire & Rescue
DOD Honor Guard, Pentagon
D'Onofrio Construction
E-4B National Airborne Operations Center crews
Edwards and Kelcey Engineering
Engineering Systems, Inc.
Environmental protection Agency
Exponent Failure Analysis Associates
EYP Mission CriticalFacilities
Fairfax County Fire & Rescue
Falcon 20 crew in PA
Family members who received calls from victims on the planes
FBI Evidence Recovery Teams
Federal Aviation Administration
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Federal Emergency Management Agency
Federal Insurance Co.
FEMA 68-Person Urban Search and Rescue Teams: Arizona Task Force 1, California Task Force 1, California Task Force 3, California Task Force 7, Colorado Task Force 1, Fairfax Task Force 1, Florida Task Force 1, Florida Task Force 2, Maryland Task Force 1, Massachusetts Task Force 1, Metro Dade/Miami, Nebraska Task Force 1, New Mexico Task Force 1, New York Task Force 1, Pennsylvania Task Force 1, Tennessee Task Force 1, Texas Task Force 1, Utah Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 2, Washington Task Force 1
FEMA Disaster Field Office
FEMA Emergency Response Team
FEMA Urban Search and Rescue Incident Support Team-Advanced 3
Fire Department of New York
Fort Myer Fire Department
French Urban Search & Rescue Task Force
Friedens Volunteer Fire Department
Gateway Demolition
Gene Code Forensics
Georgia Tech Engineering Dept.
Gilsanz Murray Steficek LLP
GMAC Financing
Goldstein Associates Consulting Engineers
Guy Nordenson Associates
HAKS Engineers
Hampton-Clarke Inc.
HHS National Medical Response Team
HLW International Engineering
Hooversville Rescue Squad.
Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department
Hoy Structural Services
Hughes Associates, Inc
Hugo Neu Schnitzer East
hundreds of ironworkers, some of whom built the WTC
Hundreds of New York City Police Department Detectives
Industrial Risk Insurers
Institute for Civil Infrastructure Systems
International Association of Fire Chiefs
International Union of Operating Engineers Locals 14 & 15
J.R. Harris & Company
Johnstown-Cambria County Airport Authority
Karl Koch Steel Consulting Inc.
KCE Structural Engineers
Koch Skanska
Koutsoubis, Alonso Associates
Laboratory Corp. of America
Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory
Leslie E. Robertson Associates
LIRo Engineering
Listie Volunteer Fire Company
Lockwood Consulting
M.G. McLaren Engineering
Masonry Society
Mazzocchi Wrecking Inc.
Metal Management Northeast
Metropolitan Airport Authority Fire Unit
Miami-Dade Urban Search & Rescue
Military District of Washington Search & Rescue Team
Montgomery County Fire & Rescue
Mueser Rutledge Consulting Engineers
Murray Engineering
Myriad Genetic Laboratories Inc.
National Center for Biotechnology Informatics
National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
National Council of Structural Engineers Associations
National Disaster Medical System
National Emergency Numbering Association
National Fire Protection Association
National Guard in D.C., New York, and Pennsylvania
National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)
National Institutes of Health Human Genome Research Institute
National Law Enforcement and Security Institute
National Military Command Center
National Reconnaissance Office
National Response Center
National Science Foundation Division of Civil and Mechanical Systems
National Security Agency
National Transportation Safety Board
National Wrecking
Natural Hazards Research and Applications Information Center
New Jersey State Police
New York City Department of Buildings WTC Task Force
New York City Department of Design and Construction
New York City Department of Environmental Protection
New York City Office of Emergency Management
New York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner
New York City Police Department Aviation Unit
New York City Police Department Emergency Services Unit
New York Daily News
New York Flight Control Center
New York Newsday
New York Port Authority Construction Board
New York Port Authority Police
New York State Emergency Management Office
New York State Police Forensic Services
New York Times
North American Aerospace Defense Command
Northeast Air Defense Sector Commanders and crew
Numerous bomb-sniffing dogs
Numerous Forensic Anthropologists
Numerous Forensic Dentists
Numerous Forensic Pathologists
Numerous Forensic Radiologists
NuStats
Occupational Safety and Health Administration
Office of Emergency Preparedness
Office of Strategic Services
Orchid Cellmark
Parsons Brinckerhoff Engineering
Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection
Pennsylvania Department of Health and Human Services
Pennsylvania Region 13 Metropolitan Medical Response Group
Pennsylvania State Funeral Directors Association
Pennsylvania State Police
Pentagon Defense Protective Service
Pentagon Helicopter Crash Response Team
Pentagon Medical Staff
Pentagon Renovation Team
Phillips & Jordan, Inc.
Port of New York and New Jersey Authority
Pro-Safety Services
Protec
Public Entity Risk Institute
Purdue University Engineering Dept.
Robert Silman Associates Structural Engineers
Rolf Jensen & Associates, Inc
Rosenwasser/Grossman Consulting Engineers
Royal SunAlliance/Royal Indemnity
SACE Prime Power Assessment Teams
SACE Structural Safety Engineers and Debris Planning and Response Teams
Salvation Army Disaster Services
several EPA Hazmat Teams
several FBI Hazmat Teams
several Federal Disaster Medical Assistance Teams
several Federal Disaster Mortuary (DMORT) Teams
Severud Associates Consulting Engineers
Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company
Silverstein Properties
Simpson Gumpertz & Heger Engineers
Skidmore, Owings & Merrill LLP
Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire
Society of Fire Protection Engineers
Somerset Ambulance Association
Somerset County Coroner's Office
Somerset County Emergency Management Agency
Somerset Volunteer Fire Department
St. Paul/Travelers Insurance
State of Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency
Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company
Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE)
Structural Engineers Association of New York
Superstructures Engineering
Swiss Re America Insurance
Telephone operators who took calls from passengers in the hijacked planes
Teng & Associates
Thornton-Tomasetti Group, Inc.
TIG Insurance
Tokio Marine & Fire
Transportation Safety Administration
Tully Construction
Twin City Fire Insurance
Tylk Gustafson Reckers Wilson Andrews Engineering
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
Underwriters Laboratories
Union Wrecking
United Airlines
United States Air National Guard
United States Fire Administration
United States Secret Service
United Steelworkers of America
University of Sheffield Fire Engineering Research
US Army Reserves of Virginia Beach Fairfax County and Montgomery County
US Army’s Communications-Electronics Command
US Department of Defense
US Department of Justice
US Department of State
Virginia Beach Fire Department
Virginia Department of Emergency Management
Virginia State Police
Vollmer Associates Engineers
Washington Post
Weeks Marine
Weidlinger Associates
Weiskopf & Pickworth Engineering
Westmoreland County Emergency Management Agency
Whitney Contracting
Willis Group Holdings
WJE Structural Engineers
Worcester Polytechnic Institute
World Trade Center security staff
XL Insurance
Yonkers Contracting
York International
Zurich Financial
Zurich Re Risk Engineering


which beg the question why doesn't sister jones an co. fling any of their rancor it these?

 

[Mr. Jones]

I haven't yet seen conclusive evidence there was ANY molten metal at the site.
However, I'm willing to proceed under the assumption that there was. It's certainly not all that hard to believe.

I don't require you to proceed with this assumption about the molten steel. My point was to point out my first instance regarding the NIST, that led me to start doubting their integrity. I also gained some insight about what some others deem important or not as well. Remember this is about us trying to understand why we have different views, and it is obvious that what I and others consider an obvious and flagrant foul, is of no great consequence to you. What I can't understand is why this is not important to you, and to others. I mean aren't we both wanting them to look at at EVERYTHING? I consider this phenomena very important, you don't so we found out a little bit about what the others mindset and priorities are.

Your information about aluminum, and conclusions made about the possibility that it could have been the metal found in a molten state, do not seem logical to me.

No actually I don't thnk it was aluminum based on the lack of quantity of it,
and where most of it was on/in the towers, and how it is affected by fire and heat, but as I said the point had been made about where we stand on this, and its value to us.

First, whether there was more aluminum or steel in the towers is completely irrelevant. The only thing that matters is if there was enough of either to form the pools of molten metal witnessed. As far as I've seen thus far, there was plenty of both types of metal.

I have to disagree and would like to know how you can justify saying this. Do you have quantities of aluminum vs steel, and where each had their place in/on the towers? I've been waiting for anyone to answer this question, and no one has come up with anything, other then the dust samples, or an assumption by a CT debunking site that has no link to where they get their info from...
I have some figures that will show you that the prevalence of steel is vastly more then the aluminum,and that most of the aluminum was on the outside perimeter of the towers, and was installed after the steel components went up..

Next, the fact that aluminum cools more quickly than steel is also irrelevant. In either case, the material would almost surely have to have remained within a high temp environment to maintain a molten state as long as you have said (you've mentioned 100 days more than once).

Well I can't say at all that I consider this irrelevant, as
it is still a mystery as to what the fuel source was that kept the extreme temps elevated
so high (to produce a molten state) and for so long.
We know that office furnishings like chairs carpet are treated so they wont burn very easily, and are rated as such. We also know that obtaining upper echelon extreme temp of something, is only obtainable under controlled conditions with the perfect amount of oxygen and fuel, and that the fires in the towers were of a diffuse flame variety, and not controllable. These fires were not able to reach the kinds of temps or sustainability that was reported and confirmed, and backed up by witnesses and satellite imaging.

Finally, the very properties of aluminum you have brought up seem to indicate it is the more likely metal to have been found in a molten state. It would require quite a bit less heat than steel would. The higher temperatures needed to melt steel would be less likely to occur and less likely to be sustained. So, if there was molten metal seen at GZ, and if it maintained a molten state for long periods of time, aluminum is a more convincing possibility than is steel.

Yes, but we still run into problems, that go against all the molten metal being aluminum...
One is, that the quantity of aluminum was much lower at the towers, and another is that most of the aluminum was placed on the outer perimeters as a thin covering..The extreme temps were very deep, some as much as 70 feet below the surface, and we all saw that most of the perimeter outer walls of the buildings were ejected away from the centers. Also, if a piece of aluminum was in a molten, it would get rid of the heat faster and transfer it away, perhaps to something else that held its heat longer, like maybe even a piece of steel, that wouldn't start to melt until 2500 Deg. or so.
So aluminum would melt faster, but rid itself of the heat and transfer it to whatever it was in contact with faster.
This means that it was more unlikely to have remained in its molten state.
The fact that extreme temps were being recorded for so long, means that something had to be providing the fuel source for it to remain that way, and it was of no interest to NIST, thus strike one against them in my book.

I don't know that NIST ignored any reports of molten metal that they should have investigated. I have only seen a few supposed witnesses mentioned, some of which turned out not to have seen it themselves based on other quotes. Still, they may have ignored such evidence. I consider the NIST report neither infallible nor above reproach.

There's more then just a few that can be listed, and some like Tulley were hired specifically to do the clean up on the site.It happened, it was reported, and it was confirmed by people and imaging, even firefighters, who you would think would know when something like metal is in a molten state...

Considering the nature of the event and the investigation, I don't think it should ever have been expected that the report would be anything more than educated guesswork. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, the conclusions made in the NIST report are simply reasonable enough that I haven't seen reason to think they were intentionally falsified.

NIST personnel aren't stupid, and they know how a scientific forensic investigation should proceed. The others who criticize them for their unscientific work, are their peers, are in the same field of work and study and even teach it to students. I can accept some mistakes along the way but man...this just does not fall into an oops category, IMO...The best way to have done this investigation was to gather up everything and dissect it from scratch, and it seems that NIST really did have an outcome they needed to adjust their data to...Again this is the opinion I have taken based on what I have read in their work, and what other credible individuals have said when they reviewed their body of work regarding the 9-11 buildings.

Oh, and to be clear, the quote function has gotten messed up in some recent posts, that isn't me being quoted.

Cool, I'll keep a look out for that...

Anyway, this is one major instance that has led me to doubt the integrity of the NIST report. We have to see what they have to say about the fires next. They were open fires in an uncontrolled environment, could not have melted any of the steel in such a short time, and we have people in one of the impacts hole waving....How how did this part of the tower start to fail first?

 

[Mr. Jones]

Ok so...we have 3 buildings. 2 that were struck by planes, collapsed, and experienced molten steel, aluminum metal underneath their rubble wreckage. The reports of which were confirmed by satellite imagery, with extreme persistent heat from "fires" that were unable to be put out for 100 days or so.
Then we have the other building that WAS NOT hit by a plane, but experienced the same phenomena as the 2 towers.

I feel that an explanation should have been forthcoming, but instead they were dismissed or ignored. I feel that this was a total disregard for scientific honesty and integrity, while most of you don't care about such things.
Does that mean that all the people who reported and confirmed this are liars?
Were these people hallucinating?
Does this mean that none of this even existed?
No, it does not. It simply means NIST ignored this, so consequently you can not confirm what you outright refuse to search for and even acknowledge the existence of.

We have many people saying this indeed happened, we have confirmation of them, we have satellite imagery regarding the intense heat, and fires deep within the wreckage, that was not able to be extinguished, for 100 days.....And we have NIST ignoring almost all of this, and people feel that this is proper?
How can you justify this and call it an investigation that is honest and has integrity?

Perhaps you can tell us something that will redeem NIST by pointing something out in their testing regarding other aspects of fires and heat within the towers instead of underneath the wreckage as we have been discussing?
I await anything that any of you might like to introduce.
You have many experts who claimed that the fires killed the buildings to choose from, and I'm sure NIST has much to say about them as well.

How are you defining 'reporting' and 'confirming'? What I've seen is reports of molten metal, or molten steel, but not confirmation of it.

Someone just recently provided a link to an article about NASA imaging of ground zero soon after 9/11. According to that, while there were hot spots detected, there was no molten metal confirmed by the images. And I'm not certain what areas of extreme heat after such an event is supposed to suggest. I also don't think it said anything about these hot spots lasting 100 days after the event; I believe it talked about a week or two after, and how the number of hot spots was down to a few a couple of weeks after 9/11.

There is also a question of whether NIST intentionally disregarded important evidence, or disregarded evidence that had nothing to do with the collapse, or didn't actually disregard evidence at all.

nist was tasked with specific duties not a generalized investigation, all of the so called "intentionally disregarded evidence" was out of their purview.. and investigated by other agencies : Here is a partial list of those who responded to and/or investigated the events:

1,500 people who worked the flight 93 crash scene
40,000 people who worked the piles at Ground Zero
55 FBI Evidence Response Teams at Fresh Kills in New York
7,000+ FBI Agents
8,000+ people who worked the scene at the Pentagon
ACE Bermuda Insurance
AEMC Construction
AIG Insurance
Air Traffic Control System Command Center in Washington
Alexandria VA Fire & Rescue
Allianz Global Risks
American Airlines
American Concrete Institute
American Institute of Steel Construction
American Red Cross
Applied Biosystems Inc.
Applied Research Associates
Arlington County Emergency Medical Services
Arlington County Fire Department
Arlington County Sheriff's Department
Arlington VA Police Department
Armed Forces Institute of Pathology
Armed Forces Institute of Technology Federal Advisory Committee
ARUP USA
Atlantic Heydt Inc.
Bechtel
Berlin Fire Department
Big Apple Wrecking
Blanford & Co.
Bode Technology Group
Bovis Inc.
Building and Construction Trades Council
Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms
C-130H crew in D.C. & Shanksville
Cal Berkeley Engineering Dept.
California Incident Management Team
Carter Burgess Engineering
Celera Genomics
Centers for Disease Control
Central City Fire Department
Central Intelligence Agency
Cleveland Airport control tower
Columbia University Department of Civil Engineering and Engineering Mechanics
Congressional Joint Intelligence Committee
Consolidated Edison Company
Construction Technologies Laboratory
Controlled Demolitions Inc.
Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat
Counterterrorism and Security Group
CTL Engineering
D.H. Griffin Wrecking Co. Inc.
DeSimone Consulting Engineers
Dewhurst MacFarlane &Partners
DiSalvo Ericson Engineering
District of Columbia Fire & Rescue
DOD Honor Guard, Pentagon
D'Onofrio Construction
E-4B National Airborne Operations Center crews
Edwards and Kelcey Engineering
Engineering Systems, Inc.
Environmental protection Agency
Exponent Failure Analysis Associates
EYP Mission CriticalFacilities
Fairfax County Fire & Rescue
Falcon 20 crew in PA
Family members who received calls from victims on the planes
FBI Evidence Recovery Teams
Federal Aviation Administration
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Federal Emergency Management Agency
Federal Insurance Co.
FEMA 68-Person Urban Search and Rescue Teams: Arizona Task Force 1, California Task Force 1, California Task Force 3, California Task Force 7, Colorado Task Force 1, Fairfax Task Force 1, Florida Task Force 1, Florida Task Force 2, Maryland Task Force 1, Massachusetts Task Force 1, Metro Dade/Miami, Nebraska Task Force 1, New Mexico Task Force 1, New York Task Force 1, Pennsylvania Task Force 1, Tennessee Task Force 1, Texas Task Force 1, Utah Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 1, Virginia Task Force 2, Washington Task Force 1
FEMA Disaster Field Office
FEMA Emergency Response Team
FEMA Urban Search and Rescue Incident Support Team-Advanced 3
Fire Department of New York
Fort Myer Fire Department
French Urban Search & Rescue Task Force
Friedens Volunteer Fire Department
Gateway Demolition
Gene Code Forensics
Georgia Tech Engineering Dept.
Gilsanz Murray Steficek LLP
GMAC Financing
Goldstein Associates Consulting Engineers
Guy Nordenson Associates
HAKS Engineers
Hampton-Clarke Inc.
HHS National Medical Response Team
HLW International Engineering
Hooversville Rescue Squad.
Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department
Hoy Structural Services
Hughes Associates, Inc
Hugo Neu Schnitzer East
hundreds of ironworkers, some of whom built the WTC
Hundreds of New York City Police Department Detectives
Industrial Risk Insurers
Institute for Civil Infrastructure Systems
International Association of Fire Chiefs
International Union of Operating Engineers Locals 14 & 15
J.R. Harris & Company
Johnstown-Cambria County Airport Authority
Karl Koch Steel Consulting Inc.
KCE Structural Engineers
Koch Skanska
Koutsoubis, Alonso Associates
Laboratory Corp. of America
Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory
Leslie E. Robertson Associates
LIRo Engineering
Listie Volunteer Fire Company
Lockwood Consulting
M.G. McLaren Engineering
Masonry Society
Mazzocchi Wrecking Inc.
Metal Management Northeast
Metropolitan Airport Authority Fire Unit
Miami-Dade Urban Search & Rescue
Military District of Washington Search & Rescue Team
Montgomery County Fire & Rescue
Mueser Rutledge Consulting Engineers
Murray Engineering
Myriad Genetic Laboratories Inc.
National Center for Biotechnology Informatics
National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
National Council of Structural Engineers Associations
National Disaster Medical System
National Emergency Numbering Association
National Fire Protection Association
National Guard in D.C., New York, and Pennsylvania
National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)
National Institutes of Health Human Genome Research Institute
National Law Enforcement and Security Institute
National Military Command Center
National Reconnaissance Office
National Response Center
National Science Foundation Division of Civil and Mechanical Systems
National Security Agency
National Transportation Safety Board
National Wrecking
Natural Hazards Research and Applications Information Center
New Jersey State Police
New York City Department of Buildings WTC Task Force
New York City Department of Design and Construction
New York City Department of Environmental Protection
New York City Office of Emergency Management
New York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner
New York City Police Department Aviation Unit
New York City Police Department Emergency Services Unit
New York Daily News
New York Flight Control Center
New York Newsday
New York Port Authority Construction Board
New York Port Authority Police
New York State Emergency Management Office
New York State Police Forensic Services
New York Times
North American Aerospace Defense Command
Northeast Air Defense Sector Commanders and crew
Numerous bomb-sniffing dogs
Numerous Forensic Anthropologists
Numerous Forensic Dentists
Numerous Forensic Pathologists
Numerous Forensic Radiologists
NuStats
Occupational Safety and Health Administration
Office of Emergency Preparedness
Office of Strategic Services
Orchid Cellmark
Parsons Brinckerhoff Engineering
Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection
Pennsylvania Department of Health and Human Services
Pennsylvania Region 13 Metropolitan Medical Response Group
Pennsylvania State Funeral Directors Association
Pennsylvania State Police
Pentagon Defense Protective Service
Pentagon Helicopter Crash Response Team
Pentagon Medical Staff
Pentagon Renovation Team
Phillips & Jordan, Inc.
Port of New York and New Jersey Authority
Pro-Safety Services
Protec
Public Entity Risk Institute
Purdue University Engineering Dept.
Robert Silman Associates Structural Engineers
Rolf Jensen & Associates, Inc
Rosenwasser/Grossman Consulting Engineers
Royal SunAlliance/Royal Indemnity
SACE Prime Power Assessment Teams
SACE Structural Safety Engineers and Debris Planning and Response Teams
Salvation Army Disaster Services
several EPA Hazmat Teams
several FBI Hazmat Teams
several Federal Disaster Medical Assistance Teams
several Federal Disaster Mortuary (DMORT) Teams
Severud Associates Consulting Engineers
Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company
Silverstein Properties
Simpson Gumpertz & Heger Engineers
Skidmore, Owings & Merrill LLP
Skilling Ward Magnusson Barkshire
Society of Fire Protection Engineers
Somerset Ambulance Association
Somerset County Coroner's Office
Somerset County Emergency Management Agency
Somerset Volunteer Fire Department
St. Paul/Travelers Insurance
State of Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency
Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company
Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE)
Structural Engineers Association of New York
Superstructures Engineering
Swiss Re America Insurance
Telephone operators who took calls from passengers in the hijacked planes
Teng & Associates
Thornton-Tomasetti Group, Inc.
TIG Insurance
Tokio Marine & Fire
Transportation Safety Administration
Tully Construction
Twin City Fire Insurance
Tylk Gustafson Reckers Wilson Andrews Engineering
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
Underwriters Laboratories
Union Wrecking
United Airlines
United States Air National Guard
United States Fire Administration
United States Secret Service
United Steelworkers of America
University of Sheffield Fire Engineering Research
US Army Reserves of Virginia Beach Fairfax County and Montgomery County
US Army’s Communications-Electronics Command
US Department of Defense
US Department of Justice
US Department of State
Virginia Beach Fire Department
Virginia Department of Emergency Management
Virginia State Police
Vollmer Associates Engineers
Washington Post
Weeks Marine
Weidlinger Associates
Weiskopf & Pickworth Engineering
Westmoreland County Emergency Management Agency
Whitney Contracting
Willis Group Holdings
WJE Structural Engineers
Worcester Polytechnic Institute
World Trade Center security staff
XL Insurance
Yonkers Contracting
York International
Zurich Financial
Zurich Re Risk Engineering


which beg the question why doesn't sister jones an co. fling any of their rancor it these?

Easy...because NIST stated that they were responsible for what was in their reports.
It is the NIST report idiot, and it is their report. They even say they are responsible for its contents.
Now what about the fires in the towers, and the UL testing?
Virginia Beach Fire dept? Do you even know what it is that they contributed? Perhaps you could list what each individual listed agency specifically did regarding the molten steel we were discussing?