The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[Rigby5]

Wrong again. Japan refused to surrender for as long as they had hopes that the Soviets might help them escape the war in a draw (like the Korean War later ended).

It was only after the Soviet war declaration dashed their hopes of ending the war in a draw that Hirohito was willing to contemplate surrender.

Wrong.
The Japanese and Russians had a long history of war between them, and the last thing they would ever have thought is that Russia would at all help them.
The Korean war never ended because the people were divided and there was no way to combine them again.
With WWII there was no similarity at all.
There was absolutely no possible way to avoid surrender.
And the Japanese NEVER tried to avoid surrender.
They were ready and willing as early as 1944 to surrender.
But the US refused their advances.
It was the US that deliberately prevented them from being allowed to surrender.
Nor was Hirohito in charge.

 

[Rigby5]

Regardless, no general or admiral ever advised Truman against dropping the atomic bombs.

Nonsense.
Not a single military person believed Japan had any resistance left, and they all said that we should drop the atomic bombs in order to scare the Soviets, not because Japan was still a problem.

 

[Rigby5]

...



Japan was the one who chose to wait until they were nuked twice before surrendering.

But, for sake of the entire human race, yes, Hiroshima did have to suffer.

Ridiculously wrong.
When we finally accepted the Japanese surrender, after Nagasaki, the Japanese still did not even know of either nuclear attack.
It took almost another week before the groups sent to investigate came back with reports.

 

[Rigby5]

I think it would have made a good fourth target (after Hiroshima, Kyoto, and Kokura Arsenal) because the closeup view of the live mushroom cloud would have been a nice escalation.

Then a good fifth target would have been a simultaneous bombing of Nagasaki and Niigata (a double bombing being another escalation).

Wrong.
It would have taken as much as a month to even assemble a third atomic bomb, and years for any more after that.
The atomics were actually a fraud, in that they only really had the 2 and a half and no more.

 

[Mushroom]

Japan was contained
Their Navy was neutralized and they lacked the pilots to challenge our air superiority

Actually, only around the Home Islands.

Tens of thousands were still being killed by their gunboats and aircraft in China every month.

And we were still losing ships to that "contained" country until shortly before the surrender. The USS Indianapolis, 30 July 1945 by the Japanese submarine I-58.

The USS Underhill, on 24 July 1945 by a Kaiten suicide sub.

The USS Bonefish on 18 June 1945 by 5 Japanese Destroyers.

And an additional 35 US cargo ships, mostly by kamikaze or submarines in the final 3 months of the war. And the last confirmed air attack on a US ship that was lost was the John A. Rawlins, a Liberty Ship sunk off of Okinawa on 27 July 1945.

That is a hell of a lot of damage for a "contained enemy".

 

[Rigby5]

"containment" isn't a victory. It wasn't in WW2 or against Iraq.

Containment is a victory is they do not have enough food to survive, like with Japan.
And Iraq was totally innocent, so why are you even bringing them up?
All that shows is that we are still lying in 2003 like we lied in 1945.

 

[Flash]

Nonsense.
Not a single military person believed Japan had any resistance left, and they all said that we should drop the atomic bombs in order to scare the Soviets, not because Japan was still a problem.

You stupid confused Moon Bat

They didn't surrender until the bombs were dropped, duh!

 

[Rigby5]

Actually, only around the Home Islands.

Tens of thousands were still being killed by their gunboats and aircraft in China every month.

And we were still losing ships to that "contained" country until shortly before the surrender. The USS Indianapolis, 30 July 1945 by the Japanese submarine I-58.

The USS Underhill, on 24 July 1945 by a Kaiten suicide sub.

The USS Bonefish on 18 June 1945 by 5 Japanese Destroyers.

And an additional 35 US cargo ships, mostly by kamikaze or submarines in the final 3 months of the war. And the last confirmed air attack on a US ship that was lost was the John A. Rawlins, a Liberty Ship sunk off of Okinawa on 27 July 1945.

That is a hell of a lot of damage for a "contained enemy".

I disagree.
China was not active at that point.
And besides, if we cared at all about the Chinese, we would have been at war with Japan in 1937.

Sure we lost a few ships, but we could have ended that any time, simply by giving the assurances about the emperor the Japanese needed.

 

[Rigby5]

You stupid confused Moon Bat

They didn't surrender until the bombs were dropped, duh!

Wrong.
The Japanese never even knew that atomics had been used on Hiroshima or Nagasaki, and that had NOTHING at all to do with their surrender.
What caused their surrender is that finally we agreed to not prosecute the Emperor.

 

[Mushroom]

Actually only the emperor could surrender.

Wow, you know absolutely nothing about how Japan was run in the early Showa era, do you?

The Emperor was essentially a puppet, who could do absolutely nothing on his own.

The actual decision making body was the "Supreme Council for the Direction of the War" (Gimngi Sangiin), commonly called the "Big Six". That was the Foreign Minister, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Minister of War, Minister of the Navy, and the Chief of Staff of the Army and the Navy.

They literally met in closed sessions, with Emperor Showa in attendance. The Emperor sat behind a screen in the cabinet room, out of sight of the others and by tradition was to remain completely silent. All decisions were made only by those six individuals, they are the only ones with the power to end the war, or to continue fighting. The only time possible that the Emperor would have a say in his own Cabinet was in the event they were hopelessly deadlocked, and turned the final decision over to him. Which happened exactly one time.

On the morning of 6 August, they opened the meeting as always, with a vote on if they were to reject surrender and continue the war. And that vote was unanimous, 6-0 to continue fighting.

On the morning of 8 August, the cabinet opened with a vote of 5-1 to continue the war. On 9 August came the second bomb, as well as the Soviet declaration of war. Only in the early morning hours of 10 August did the cabinet become hopelessly deadlocked at 3-3, and for the first time in history the Emperor had a say in his own cabinet.

So no, actually the Emperor could not surrender. That only happened because they were deadlocked. If it was 4-2, the fighting would have continued. If it was 2-4, they would have surrendered no matter what the Emperor wanted.

 

[Dayton3]

And Iraq was totally innocent, so why are you even bringing them up?

You're kidding right? Iraqs government was supporting terrorism targeting American citizens.

 

[Rigby5]

Wow, you know absolutely nothing about how Japan was run in the early Showa era, do you?

The Emperor was essentially a puppet, who could do absolutely nothing on his own.

The actual decision making body was the "Supreme Council for the Direction of the War" (Gimngi Sangiin), commonly called the "Big Six". That was the Foreign Minister, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Minister of War, Minister of the Navy, and the Chief of Staff of the Army and the Navy.

They literally met in closed sessions, with Emperor Showa in attendance. The Emperor sat behind a screen in the cabinet room, out of sight of the others and by tradition was to remain completely silent. All decisions were made only by those six individuals, they are the only ones with the power to end the war, or to continue fighting. The only time possible that the Emperor would have a say in his own Cabinet was in the event they were hopelessly deadlocked, and turned the final decision over to him. Which happened exactly one time.

On the morning of 6 August, they opened the meeting as always, with a vote on if they were to reject surrender and continue the war. And that vote was unanimous, 6-0 to continue fighting.

On the morning of 8 August, the cabinet opened with a vote of 5-1 to continue the war. On 9 August came the second bomb, as well as the Soviet declaration of war. Only in the early morning hours of 10 August did the cabinet become hopelessly deadlocked at 3-3, and for the first time in history the Emperor had a say in his own cabinet.

So no, actually the Emperor could not surrender. That only happened because they were deadlocked. If it was 4-2, the fighting would have continued. If it was 2-4, they would have surrendered no matter what the Emperor wanted.

That is true, but ONLY because the US kept refusing any attempt to get any reassurances to not humiliate the Emperor.
That is because the Emperor was also the major figure of their religion, so would have totally thrown Japan into chaos.
If we had agree to any sort of assurances for the Emperor, than it would have instantly been all 6 voting to surrender.
No one wanted to fight if that had been achieved.

 

[Vegasgiants]

Wow, you know absolutely nothing about how Japan was run in the early Showa era, do you?

The Emperor was essentially a puppet, who could do absolutely nothing on his own.

The actual decision making body was the "Supreme Council for the Direction of the War" (Gimngi Sangiin), commonly called the "Big Six". That was the Foreign Minister, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Minister of War, Minister of the Navy, and the Chief of Staff of the Army and the Navy.

They literally met in closed sessions, with Emperor Showa in attendance. The Emperor sat behind a screen in the cabinet room, out of sight of the others and by tradition was to remain completely silent. All decisions were made only by those six individuals, they are the only ones with the power to end the war, or to continue fighting. The only time possible that the Emperor would have a say in his own Cabinet was in the event they were hopelessly deadlocked, and turned the final decision over to him. Which happened exactly one time.

On the morning of 6 August, they opened the meeting as always, with a vote on if they were to reject surrender and continue the war. And that vote was unanimous, 6-0 to continue fighting.

On the morning of 8 August, the cabinet opened with a vote of 5-1 to continue the war. On 9 August came the second bomb, as well as the Soviet declaration of war. Only in the early morning hours of 10 August did the cabinet become hopelessly deadlocked at 3-3, and for the first time in history the Emperor had a say in his own cabinet.

So no, actually the Emperor could not surrender. That only happened because they were deadlocked. If it was 4-2, the fighting would have continued. If it was 2-4, they would have surrendered no matter what the Emperor wanted.

Only the emperor could surrender.

If they tried to surrender without him they would have to.kill him or jail him because he could go on the radio and say keep fighting

We would never accept a surrender unless it included the emperor


That is a stone cold fact

 

[gipper]

Just telling the truth. Make of it what you wish. Study the Japanese atrocities during WWII. Try to understand the atmosphere at the time. One can actually disagree with what Truman did but understand the circumstances at the time. It takes more intellect than you posses I guess.

Still no excuse for mass murdering thousands of defenseless women and children, of a nation trying to surrender.

Your argument is absurd. Because the Japanese committed atrocities, it’s okay for Truman to too.

 

[Rigby5]

You're kidding right? Iraqs government was supporting terrorism targeting American citizens.

That is totally and completely wrong.
Iraq had absolutely NO connection at all to any terrorist organization, and instead was about the most anti terrorist force on the planet.
It is why Zarqawi set up his organization in the northern Kurdish no-fly-zone, where Saddam could not attack his organization.
It was only after we had Saddam killed that al Qaeda, ISIS, Muslim Brotherhood, etc., were able to start operating in Iraq.

 

[Dayton3]

Only the emperor could surrender.

If they tried to surrender without him they would have to.kill him or jail him because he could go on the radio and say keep fighting

We would never accept a surrender unless it included the emperor


That is a stone cold fact

And even when the emperor agreed to surrender, there was attempt by Japanese officers to prevent the transmission of the emperor's surrender notification to the Japanese people.

 

[Dayton3]

Still no excuse for mass murdering thousands of defenseless women and children, of a nation trying to surrender.

If the Japanese were "defenseless" they would not be shooting at Americans any longer.

 

[Mushroom]

If they tried to surrender without him they would have to.kill him or jail him because he could go on the radio and say keep fighting

Oh my freaking god!

The very first time the Emperor ever "spoke" on the Radio was the "Jeweled Voice" broadcast of 15 August. And that was not even live, it was recorded the day before. inside the Imperial Palace.

That was the first time any Emperor ever had their voice broadcast. And a team and their equipment had to be brought into the Palace so the recording could be made.

Now how in the hell was he going to "go on the radio", when he was essentially a prisoner inside the Imperial Palace? "Jail him"? He had essentially been a prisoner his entire life.

As I said, you know absolutely nothing of the early Showa era. You seem to think he is like some European Emperor. He was not, he was mostly the head of the State Religion and a Spiritual leader. But he made no decisions, they had always been made entirely in his name, with him having no input into them.

 

[Vegasgiants]

Oh my freaking god!

The very first time the Emperor ever "spoke" on the Radio was the "Jeweled Voice" broadcast of 15 August. And that was not even live, it was recorded the day before. inside the Imperial Palace.

That was the first time any Emperor ever had their voice broadcast. And a team and their equipment had to be brought into the Palace so the recording could be made.

Now how in the hell was he going to "go on the radio", when he was essentially a prisoner inside the Imperial Palace? "Jail him"? He had essentially been a prisoner his entire life.

As I said, you know absolutely nothing of the early Showa era. You seem to think he is like some European Emperor. He was not, he was mostly the head of the State Religion and a Spiritual leader. But he made no decisions, they had always been made entirely in his name, with him having no input into them.

We would never accept a surrender without the emperor


He did go on the radio on august 15.


And he surrendered.....and the people accepted surrender


They would never do it without him

 

[Open Bolt]

And that one condition, to not abuse the Emperor, was not unreasonable.
In fact, we did agree to it.

The condition (only asked for after both atomic bombs had already been dropped) was that Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power as Japan's living deity.

We did not agree to it. We told them that Hirohito would be subordinate to MacArthur.

Wrong.

Not wrong. Hiroshima was a huge military base.

All the military facilities had long been abandoned, in the attempt to concentrate forces for a defense.

No they hadn't. Hiroshima was the military headquarters in charge of that defense, and it held 43,000 Japanese soldiers.

There were no soldiers at Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

There were 43,000 soldiers at Hiroshima.

If there had been, we would have already bombed them, and then they would have has air defenses.

Hiroshima was off limits to conventional bombing.

But neither city had any defenses because there was no longer any valid targets there.

The headquarters in charge of repelling our invasion makes for a valid target.

So do 43,000 soldiers.

Just ask yourself WHY would Japan have wasted soldiers at Hiroshima

Hardly a waste. Most were probably awaiting deployment. The guys at headquarters were there to do their jobs.

Total lie.

Reality is not a lie. Japan had two million soldiers and ten thousand kamikazes waiting to pounce on our invading forces.

If Japan had any military aircraft left at all, then the atomic bombs would never have reached target.

The Nagasaki crew would like to speak to you about the Japanese aircraft that harassed them at Kokura Arsenal.

They were each delivered by a single B-29 bomber, which Japanese fighter planes could easily shoot down.

Not so easily. Antiaircraft fire from the ground was a much greater concern.

So the only possible explanation is that the Japanese simply had run out of planes entirely.
When is what the Pentagon already knew.
They knew that the total number of Japanese planes left was 109, and almost all of those were civilian.
Japan has no fuel, pilots, bullets, food, or anything.

That is incorrect. Japan had ten thousand kamikazes, and they each had a bomb and enough fuel for a single one-way flight.

So you do not even believe Bruce Campbell?

Not when he spouts falsehoods.

First of all, Japan NEVER refused to surrender.

They refused up until August 10, 1945.

Second is that only an idiot would have ever invaded Japan, as the islands made perfect prison colonies.

We were going to invade if Japan had kept refusing to surrender.

Read the Geneva conventions of 1906.
Staving out cities is a war crime.
Submarine warfare and mines that do not let civilian food through, are war crimes.

Which articles of the conventions say that?

Wrong.

Not wrong. Japan refused to surrender until August 10, 1945, by which time both atomic bombs had already been dropped.

The Japanese and Russians had a long history of war between them, and the last thing they would ever have thought is that Russia would at all help them.

They not only thought it, they actively pushed to get Russia to help them escape the war in a draw so they would not have to surrender.

And the Japanese NEVER tried to avoid surrender.

That is incorrect. Japan tried to avoid surrender until August 10, 1945, by which time both atomic bombs had already been dropped.

They were ready and willing as early as 1944 to surrender.

No they weren't.

But the US refused their advances.

There were no such advances to refuse.

It was the US that deliberately prevented them from being allowed to surrender.

We didn't have any control over whether Japan offered to surrender.

If we did have such control, we would have had them surrender in 1941.

Nor was Hirohito in charge.

That is incorrect. He was the Emperor.

Nonsense.

Not nonsense. Not one person advised Truman against using the atomic bombs.

Not a single military person believed Japan had any resistance left, and they all said that we should drop the atomic bombs in order to scare the Soviets, not because Japan was still a problem.

Not one person advised Truman that Japan was not still a problem.

Ridiculously wrong.

Not wrong. Japan was in control of when they offered to surrender.

Japan was the one who chose to wait until August 10 before ever contemplating surrender.

When we finally accepted the Japanese surrender, after Nagasaki, the Japanese still did not even know of either nuclear attack.
It took almost another week before the groups sent to investigate came back with reports.

Japan knew of Hiroshima immediately because we broadcast to the entire world that we had destroyed Hiroshima with an atomic bomb.

Japan already knew what an atomic bomb was from their own nuclear program.

Japan knew the very next day that we were telling the truth, because they had reliable reports from their own people that a single bomb had destroyed the entire city.

Wrong.
It would have taken as much as a month to even assemble a third atomic bomb, and years for any more after that.

Not wrong. The third atomic bomb was only a few days away from being dropped on Japan when they surrendered.

There were another seven atomic bombs coming over the course of September and October. Another five atomic bombs coming in November. And then at least ten a month from December onward.

And the core of Little Boy could have been recast into four implosion cores as well.

If we had agree to any sort of assurances for the Emperor, than it would have instantly been all 6 voting to surrender.

Not before the Soviets declared war.

Up until that point Japan was trying to secure Soviet aid to help them end the war in a draw instead of surrendering.