The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

Mikegriffith1: Tsuyoshi Hasegawa, author of the highly acclaimed book on Japan's surrender titled Racing the Enemy.

Elektra: We can cut right to the chase. The conclusion of the book is Truman was not at fault nor a villian. I look forward to a discussion of the book . Of course, if it us like all the other books referred to in this OP, mikegriffter1 does not own the book hence.he can only cherry pick google results.

It is revealing that you would pretend as though Hasegawa differs markedly from my position, and/or that I have cherry-picked my quotes from him, and/or that he somehow supports your position to any substantial degree. Let us see what one of the scholars who reviewed Hasegawa’s book says about Hasegawa’s arguments. This comes from Dr. John McNay, a professor of history at the University of Cincinnati, who reviewed the book on the academic website H-Net:

Racing the Enemy is a new look at an old question and, as Hasegawa intends, it should cause many historians to reconsider their views on why the Japanese surrendered when they did and how they did to end the Pacific War. . . .​

More importantly, Hasegawa argues that the Soviet Union's entry into the war had a much greater impact on Japan's surrender than many historians have previously assumed. No longer, Hasegawa argues, should historians believe that it was primarily the shock of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that brought the end of the war. Instead, the Soviet attack played an essential role in bringing the Japanese leadership to that decision.​

As Hasegawa explains, the central issue almost obsessively occupying Japanese diplomacy in the final months of the war was the effort to keep the Soviet Union neutral in accordance with the 1941 Neutrality Pact and to bring about a negotiated peace through its approaches to the Allies via Moscow. . . . "Soviet entry into the war shocked the Japanese even more than the atomic bombs because it meant the end of any hope of achieving a settlement short of unconditional surrender," Hasegawa writes (p. 3).​

Another area where Hasegawa's argument is intriguing is in regard to the concept of kokutai, which is the mythical notion that the Japanese emperor, as a living God united with the creator of the imperial system, is the eternal essence of his subjects and imperial land. Hasegawa traces the evolution of this thought to its rather late culmination in a Japanese Ministry of Education publication called The Essence of Kokutai in 1937, which had appeared after a controversial debate over the matter. Central to this notion was the emperor's monopolistic power over the military command. All of this emphasized the centrality of the emperor to Japanese national identity. Part of the peace party's work in the final days of the war was to redefine kokutai much more narrowly to include just the preservation of the imperial house. . . .​

This threat to the imperial house, Hasegawa reveals, was made more severe in the emperor's eyes because of the Soviet invasion. With Japan's whole diplomatic framework geared in the final weeks and months toward maintaining Soviet neutrality so that Japan could arrange a negotiated peace, the Soviet declaration of war had a devastating impact. The Soviet attack emboldened the peace party in Tokyo, whose members had been diligently, but with inadequate force, working toward a negotiated peace. Still, despite the shock, Japanese army officers insisted on the need to fight on. Elsewhere reality began dawning.​

The Hiroshima bombing did inspire greater urgency on the part of officials and the emperor to seek the negotiated peace, Hasegawa shows, but did not produce a rush to embrace the Potsdam terms of unconditional surrender. The author maintains that "[a]s long as they still felt they might preserve the kokutai or negotiate with the Allies with Moscow's help, they would press on" (p. 185).​

In an interview on the morning of August 9 (before the emperor had heard or digested news of the bombing), Hirohito had a meeting with Koichi Kido, keeper of the privy seal. During the meeting the emperor said, "The Soviet Union declared war against us, and entered into a state of war as of today. Because of this it is necessary to study and decide on the termination of the war" (p. 198). Similarly Ambassador Sato received the Soviet declaration of war from Vladimir Molotov and, while en route back to the embassy, glumly told an aide, "The inevitable has now arrived" (p. 191). With Japan's diplomatic strategy in ruins as Soviet troops attacked, word came of yet another atomic bombing of Nagasaki. Again, Hasegawa contends, the bombing seems to have had little impact on the negotiations between the peace and war parties.​

There is an explanation, this reader believes, for the apparent lack of impact the atomic bombings may have had on Japanese leaders, especially the military. We should keep in mind that American forces had been bombing Japanese cities with impunity for months. On both the American and Japanese sides, the fact that American bombers were incinerating Japanese cities before Hiroshima lessened the impact of destroying that city. Just as the mounting destruction of Japanese cities reduced American reluctance to destroy civilian targets, it also reduced the shock value to the Japanese. Surely, there were significant differences with the Hiroshima bombing but the line had long been crossed on the destruction of cities. The tens of thousands of civilians killed in the conventional bombings were no less dead because the instruments of their deaths were high-explosive bombs and incendiaries rather than atomic weapons. While there is some mention of the scale of the conventional bombings, Hasegawa could have sharpened his argument by incorporating this destruction and its inevitable affect on both the Japanese and the American decision-making processes.​

This brings us to a further important contribution of Hasegawa's study, because his argument adds to the debate over the effectiveness (and justness) of the atomic bombings. If the Hiroshima bombing did not induce surrender, and if the Soviet action was so central, and if the decision to surrender was reached before the Nagasaki bombing, as Hasegawa argues, then the case for the usefulness of the bombs is seriously undermined.​

Hasegawa is critical of the American decision-making process but he goes beyond previous criticisms of Truman's decision, such as Martin Sherwin's faulting Truman for making a single decision to drop both bombs rather than two separate decisions. Hasegawa cites a cryptic response by Truman to Secretary of War Stimson, "Suggestion approved. Release when ready but not sooner than Aug. 2" (p. 175). Hasegawa argues that this document has been misidentified. For example, in Truman (1992) historian David McCullough contends that this is the presidential order to drop the bomb. Instead, Hasegawa argues, this document is really a response to Stimson's inquiry whether a statement about the bomb should be prepared and released when necessary. Hasegawa goes on to argue that despite Truman's later claims "that he issued the order to drop the bomb on his voyage back to the United States somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic, the president never issued such an order. The fact is that the atomic bomb was dropped without Truman's explicit order" (p. 176). Instead, the only explicit order to drop the bomb was almost entirely within military channels. According to Hasegawa, General Lesley Groves drafted the order, George Marshall and Henry Stimson approved it, and General Thomas Handy delivered it to General Carl Spaatz, commander of the Army Strategic Air Forces. Truman "was not involved in this decision but merely let the military proceed without his interference" (p. 152). . . .​

Acknowledging that Truman's objectives were twofold (to impose unconditional surrender and to save American lives), Hasegawa argues that the Soviet entry played an important part in speeding up the use of the weapons. "Truman was in a hurry. He was aware that the race was on between the atomic bomb and Soviet entry into the war" (p. 183). Part of this rush resulted in what Hasegawa calls the "concocted" story that Japan had promptly "rejected" the Potsdam Proclamation. Instead, Hasegawa cites Magic decrypts and Swiss sources that the Japanese government believed the Potsdam documents could be used as a basis for surrender. Hasegawa admits that the Japanese appear to have publicly ignored the proclamation but maintains that that is quite different from rejecting the surrender conditions. Hasegawa's conclusion is that "even in the face of what was known, and should have been known to Truman, Byrnes, and Stimson, one cannot escape the conclusion that the United States rushed to drop the bomb without any attempt to explore the readiness of some Japanese policymakers to seek peace through the ultimatum" (p. 173). (McNay on Hasegawa, 'Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the Surrender of Japan' | H-War | H-Net)​

You seem unaware of the fact that the tiny band of historians who defend Truman’s atomic-bomb decision vigorously attacked Hasegawa’s book when it was published. Here is one of Hasegawa’s replies to their criticisms:

Response to Critics of My Book | History News Network

It is also revealing, and rather curious, that you assumed that I didn't have Hasegawa's book because I first quoted from his 2007 article in The Asia-Pacific Journal, which he wrote years after his book was published. I quoted from his article first because most people do not have his book and because his article is available online.
 
Let us see what one of the scholars who reviewed Hasegawa’s book says about Hasegawa’s arguments. This comes from Dr. John McNay, a professor of history at the University of Cincinnati, who reviewed the book on the academic website H-Net:
the griffifter1 jumps from one idea to the next, to the next, burying all sorts of posts. What happened, did I once again post something you can not refute?

How about you quote from the book you claim you have, with nice page numbers and stuff? Is that too hard for you?

Chasing the dog, that would of been a better title to your OP, for like a dog, you are off running, never addressing one topic to conclusion, just offering other's opinions as if a google search makes you and everyone else right.

If one finds in on google, it musts be true.
 
More importantly, Hasegawa argues that the Soviet Union's entry into the war had a much greater impact on Japan's surrender than many historians have previously assumed.​
And, may I thank you again for again, providing us with a quote that directly contradicts everything you have stated!

Racing the Enemy, simply states that Historians had not given the Soviet entry into the war, proper credit. Not that it was the Soviet entry into the war that caused Japan to surrender.

When you are right, you are right, right? A greater impact than assumed, not as you stated, the reason why Japan surrendered. Thank you much for destroying your argument.
 
We did not have to nuke Japan. Debate over.
You are right, we did not have to, Nuke Japan. We did not even have to retaliate after Pearl Harbor. We did not have to fight Hitler.

We could of just, died.

But, we did fight the war, and at that it had to end, and in ending the war as fast as possible, we saved our lives, American lives. Maybe even your life, unless of course you come from a family that would of not fought had the need came.

But either way, there are people who are alive today only because we nuked the Japan and hence saved their Fathers, Grandfathers, or Great Grandfathers. From those who would of had to fought on the mainland to those who were in prisoner of war camps. Nuking the Japs saved American lives. That is hard for some people to accept.
 
We did not have to nuke Japan. Debate over.
You are right, we did not have to, Nuke Japan. We did not even have to retaliate after Pearl Harbor. We did not have to fight Hitler.

We could of just, died.

But, we did fight the war, and at that it had to end, and in ending the war as fast as possible, we saved our lives, American lives. Maybe even your life, unless of course you come from a family that would of not fought had the need came.

But either way, there are people who are alive today only because we nuked the Japan and hence saved their Fathers, Grandfathers, or Great Grandfathers. From those who would of had to fought on the mainland to those who were in prisoner of war camps. Nuking the Japs saved American lives. That is hard for some people to accept.
Wrong.
 
Visitors to the National Air and Space Museum—America’s shrine to the technological leading edge of the military industrial complex—hear a familiar narrative from the tour guides in front of the Enola Gay, the plane that dropped an atomic weapon on the civilians of Hiroshima 70 years ago today.

The bomb was dropped, they say, to save the lives of thousands of Americans who would otherwise have been killed in an invasion of the Home Islands. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were largely destroyed and the lives of between 135,000 and 300,000 mostly Japanese women, children, and old people were sacrificed—most young men were away at war—as the result of a terrible but morally just calculus aimed at bringing an intractable war to a close.

The War Was Won Before Hiroshima—And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb Knew It
 
most young men were away at war—as the result of a terrible but morally just calculus aimed at bringing an intractable war to a close.
The War Was Won Before Hiroshima—And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb Knew It
most men? Yet, Hiroshima was the headquarters for many military units?

Headquarters of Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's Second General Army, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. NO MEN?

Headquarters of the 59th Army, the 5th Division and the 224th Division. NO MEN?

The city was defended by five batteries of 7-cm and 8-cm (2.8 and 3.1 inch) anti-aircraft guns of the 3rd Anti-Aircraft Division, including units from the 121st and 122nd Anti-Aircraft Regiments and the 22nd and 45th Separate Anti-Aircraft Battalions. NO MEN?

Hiroshima was a supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. NO MEN?

The city was a communications center, a key port for shipping, and an assembly area for troops. NO MEN?

It was a beehive of war industry, manufacturing parts for planes and boats, for bombs, rifles, and handguns. NO MEN?

40,000 Japanese military personnel were stationed in the city. NO MEN?

It is estimated that as many as 20,000 Japanese military personnel were killed, of the 70,000 total deaths in Hiroshima. Close to 34% of the people killed Japanese military? But NO MEN?
 
Well. Well. Well. Just as I expected...you have absolutely no point. Who gives a crap what Ike thought?

Uh, well, he was one of our top generals and later became one of our most beloved presidents. He commanded all American and Allied forces in Europe. So one would think that his opinion on nuking Japan would carry considerable weight.

How about Douglas MacArthur? Do you care what he thought about nuking Japan? He opposed it too.

At the end of the day, only an idiot thinks that Japan was justified in killing Americans over something as trivial as "sanctions" while simultaneously believing that Japan was some poor "victim" and America was "evil" for responding.

You are missing the point that FDR turned a former anti-Communist ally into an enemy because he was rabidly pro-Soviet, and that in so doing he laid the groundwork for the loss of Eastern Europe, China, North Korea, and North Vietnam to Communism.

FDR's sanctions were "trivial"?! Really? You must be kidding, or else you don't know how drastic and damaging they were. Any nation facing that kind of economic strangulation would fight to break it.

And the sanctions weren't the only provocation. FDR was sending massive amounts of aid to the Soviets, and the Soviets were funneling some of that aid to the Chinese Nationalists and Communists (yes, both). FDR was also sending direct aid to the Chinese Nationalists at the same time they were getting aid from the Soviets.

If FDR had adopted an anti-Communist stance, he would have cut off aid to the Nationalists and would have told them to accept the very reasonable peace deal that the Japanese repeatedly offered. There is every indication that if FDR had not intervened, the Nationalists would have done just that, which would have given them nearly all of China (except for a small area in the north) in exchange for tacitly recognizing Japan's satellite state of Manchukuo in Manchuria. This would have spared the Chinese, the North Koreans, and the North Vietnamese the horrors of Communist rule, which would have meant that over 30 million Chinese would not have later died at the hands of the Communists.
 
FDR's sanctions were "trivial"?! Really? You must be kidding, or else you don't know how drastic and damaging they were. Any nation facing that kind of economic strangulation would fight to break it.
You sound like the biggest fucking idiot ever claiming that “sanctions” justify bombing a nation - resulting in thousands of death.

So if you walked into a bank and they denied you service, you would be justified in blowing their head off with a shotgun, in your mind? You’re a fuck’n lunatic. You must be a Paid Russian Troll. No rational person in the world would believe refusing trade and/or economic interaction, justices an attack on a nation.
 
Well. Well. Well. Just as I expected...you have absolutely no point. Who gives a crap what Ike thought?

Uh, well, he was one of our top generals and later became one of our most beloved presidents. He commanded all American and Allied forces in Europe. So one would think that his opinion on nuking Japan would carry considerable weight.

How about Douglas MacArthur? Do you care what he thought about nuking Japan? He opposed it too.

At the end of the day, only an idiot thinks that Japan was justified in killing Americans over something as trivial as "sanctions" while simultaneously believing that Japan was some poor "victim" and America was "evil" for responding.

You are missing the point that FDR turned a former anti-Communist ally into an enemy because he was rabidly pro-Soviet, and that in so doing he laid the groundwork for the loss of Eastern Europe, China, North Korea, and North Vietnam to Communism.

FDR's sanctions were "trivial"?! Really? You must be kidding, or else you don't know how drastic and damaging they were. Any nation facing that kind of economic strangulation would fight to break it.

And the sanctions weren't the only provocation. FDR was sending massive amounts of aid to the Soviets, and the Soviets were funneling some of that aid to the Chinese Nationalists and Communists (yes, both). FDR was also sending direct aid to the Chinese Nationalists at the same time they were getting aid from the Soviets.

If FDR had adopted an anti-Communist stance, he would have cut off aid to the Nationalists and would have told them to accept the very reasonable peace deal that the Japanese repeatedly offered. There is every indication that if FDR had not intervened, the Nationalists would have done just that, which would have given them nearly all of China (except for a small area in the north) in exchange for tacitly recognizing Japan's satellite state of Manchukuo in Manchuria. This would have spared the Chinese, the North Koreans, and the North Vietnamese the horrors of Communist rule, which would have meant that over 30 million Chinese would not have later died at the hands of the Communists.
I may disagree with much of your analysis and conclusions on this topic, however, I deeply appreciate your scholarly way of presenting your theories and ideas and you have certainly earned my respect for your knowledge and method of sharing it with readers of this thread. Thank you.
 
Uh, well, he was one of our top generals
So was Norman Schwarzkopf - who believed we should have dropped more nuclear warheads on Japan. So what is your point? Nobody gives a shit about Eisenhower’s view on that. Generals aren’t tasked with the power to decide when to use nuclear weapons.
and later became one of our most beloved presidents.
Well Reagan was our most beloved President and he supported the use of nuclear weapons. So again, what is your point?
 
You are missing the point that FDR turned a former anti-Communist ally into an enemy because he was rabidly pro-Soviet, and that in so doing he laid the groundwork for the loss of Eastern Europe, China, North Korea, and North Vietnam to Communism.
Actually you are missing the point. This thread was about you crying about the U.S. use of nuclear weapons against Japan.

It wasn’t a thread about how FDR was one of the three worst presidents in U.S. history. If that’s what you want to discuss, start a thread on that and I will agree with you on that.
 
And the sanctions weren't the only provocation.
Sanctions aren’t a “provocation”. The U.S. is a sovereign nation and is not bound in any capacity to enter into trade agreements or economic interactions. We can choose who we want to work with and who we don’t.
FDR was sending massive amounts of aid to the Soviets, and the Soviets were funneling some of that aid to the Chinese Nationalists and Communists (yes, both). FDR was also sending direct aid to the Chinese Nationalists at the same time they were getting aid from the Soviets.
So? If they didn’t like it, they should have found a better solution than BOMBING us. They not only still had the “Soviet/China/wa-wa-wa” issues, but then they also had 2 nuclear bombs to deal with. So clearly that only created more problems for them, not less. You’re as dumb as they were. :eusa_doh:
 
Well. Well. Well. Just as I expected...you have absolutely no point. Who gives a crap what Ike thought?

Uh, well, he was one of our top generals and later became one of our most beloved presidents. He commanded all American and Allied forces in Europe. So one would think that his opinion on nuking Japan would carry considerable weight.

How about Douglas MacArthur? Do you care what he thought about nuking Japan? He opposed it too.

At the end of the day, only an idiot thinks that Japan was justified in killing Americans over something as trivial as "sanctions" while simultaneously believing that Japan was some poor "victim" and America was "evil" for responding.

You are missing the point that FDR turned a former anti-Communist ally into an enemy because he was rabidly pro-Soviet, and that in so doing he laid the groundwork for the loss of Eastern Europe, China, North Korea, and North Vietnam to Communism.

FDR's sanctions were "trivial"?! Really? You must be kidding, or else you don't know how drastic and damaging they were. Any nation facing that kind of economic strangulation would fight to break it.

And the sanctions weren't the only provocation. FDR was sending massive amounts of aid to the Soviets, and the Soviets were funneling some of that aid to the Chinese Nationalists and Communists (yes, both). FDR was also sending direct aid to the Chinese Nationalists at the same time they were getting aid from the Soviets.

If FDR had adopted an anti-Communist stance, he would have cut off aid to the Nationalists and would have told them to accept the very reasonable peace deal that the Japanese repeatedly offered. There is every indication that if FDR had not intervened, the Nationalists would have done just that, which would have given them nearly all of China (except for a small area in the north) in exchange for tacitly recognizing Japan's satellite state of Manchukuo in Manchuria. This would have spared the Chinese, the North Koreans, and the North Vietnamese the horrors of Communist rule, which would have meant that over 30 million Chinese would not have later died at the hands of the Communists.
more fantasy, the world would of been rainbows and skittles if only FDR hid in a hole

it is amazing, people who hate our history, believing that somehow it could of been different with one little action of one person

it is a shame, if only the usa had allowed Japan to bomb our ships in china, if only we allowed Japan to rape those we promised to protect, if only the USA turned a blinds eye to the torture of the chinese.
 
FDR's sanctions were "trivial"?! Really? You must be kidding, or else you don't know how drastic and damaging they were.
I’m not kidding, fragile little snowflake. All economic sanctions are trivial. And none of them justifies murder.

This is fairy tale material. Throughout history, nations have taken sanctions very seriously. When you freeze another nation's assets, cut off most of their oil supply, and deny them access to other vital raw materials, that nation will view those actions as hostile and dangerous, and, if they can, will most likely resort to force if diplomacy fails to undo them.

If Russia, China, and Mexico teamed up and imposed sanctions on us that cut off 85-90% of our oil supply, cut off our access to numerous vital raw materials, and, to top it off, froze all of our assets in their banks, what do you think we would do if they refused to undo these actions even after we offered the very concessions they said they wanted before they imposed the sanctions? Hey? What do you think we would do? Let our economy grind to a halt and suffer severe economic depression?

You do realize that we didn't just impose draconian sanctions on Japan but that we, along with the British and the Dutch, also froze all of their assets, totaling billions of dollars, right?

The fact that FDR took these actions to provoke Japan to war is obvious from the fact that when the Japanese offered to withdraw from southern Indochina, FDR refused to lift the sanctions, even though Japan's move into southern Indochina was the excuse Roosevelt gave for freezing Japan's assets. So, when Japan offered to withdraw from southern Indochina, and then from northern Indochina, why didn't FDR accept the offer and lift the sanctions?

When FDR kept imposing more conditions every time Japan offered concessions, the Japanese realized that FDR was determined to provoke Japan to war. Of course, we now know, and have known for decades, that FDR wanted to provoke Japan to war. Stimson's diary even documents that FDR wanted to maneuver Japan into "firing the first shot."

When the Soviets carried out all kinds of brutal deeds, occupied countries, etc., why didn't FDR do to them what he did to the Japanese? And what was the big deal with Japan occupying parts of southern Indochina? France had occupied and taken over all of Indochina, and had killed far more Indochinese than the Japanese did when they came in, yet no Western nation imposed sanctions on France. So why did FDR freeze Japan's assets when Japan moved into southern Indochina?
 
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