The Official Zimmerman Trial Verdict Thread

[testarosa]

So let's get to the bottom of these questions: Are lesser includeds in play here? Or is the ONLY charge M2? I've heard it both ways so far.

It hasn't been decided yet. The jury instructions haven't been proffered yet. But you can bet there will be argument about it.

Murder 2. Second degree murder. M2.

That's what we have now.

Period.

 

[25Caliber]

No. The defense is that GZ shot TM in self defense, not intentionally killed him. Important distinction there.

What I meant by that was that the killing was not unintentional, as in negligent. GZ intended to defend himself.

That I can accept. If the scenario is correct as it appears to be, that Martin had Zimmerman down and was beating him and Zimmerman was afraid for his life, it would follow that Zimmerman intended to stop the assault by shooting Martin. It does not logically follow that he intended to kill Martin at that time or was even thinking about anything other than stopping the beating.

This makes sense to me. I'd buy that.

 

[testarosa]

I was agreeing with you. Lol

Wharfrat

Eyz bes b nah taggin an messin dat uppa gain.

 

[Sunshine]

I would have thought it would be a bar on voluntary manslaughter, but not on involuntary manslaughter. Am I wrong? I'm just trying to get an understanding of how this works. This is my first time reading up on the intricacies of this type of trial. I ask because what I read said the opposite of what you just said. It said intent does not apply. I'm confused...?

You are close, but confusing elements of the two types of crime we are discussing. Murder requires intent; manslaughter does not. And intent is not an issue in this case, as Zimmerman intended to kill Martin. Zimmerman's argument essentially admits that his intent is consistent with the statutory requirements for murder 2.

Yeah I have no doubt that if the jury rules him not guilty of murder two that he's also not guilty of voluntary manslaughter. My question is to the lesser included charge of involuntary manslaughter due to negligence. IOW does self-defense excuse negligence in a homicide.

Can't happen. The lesser included has to meet all the elements of the original charge. A killing can't be voluntary AND involuntary. Give it up.

 

[wharfrat]

So let's get to the bottom of these questions: Are lesser includeds in play here? Or is the ONLY charge M2? I've heard it both ways so far.

It hasn't been decided yet. The jury instructions haven't been proffered yet. But you can bet there will be argument about it.

Well in florida its auto included on murder charges....so as of now the lesser charges are in and it would be up to the defense to object before instructions are read?

Do you have a more reputable link than the one from a Pennsylvania med mal attorney's blog that "auto included" is the hard and fast rule in Florida? Because I can't seem to find case law consistent with that notion. In fact, I'm finding the opposite; see Griffis v. State, 848 So. 2d 422 @ Google Scholar

 

[TemplarKormac]

tell us sarah, what race are you? and its a valid question since all you do is spout racial bullshit every day.

There's a lot of racial bullshit out there. It's not like we have to go looking for it. Like it or not, Spike Lee is right: There are two Americas and most whites don't have even the slightest scintilla of a notion for what it is like to be black.

Does that mean we should have two sets of laws? One for whites and one for blacks?

She would love nothing more than to institute Jim Crow again.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

Never mind. He's only charged with M2, no lesser charges specified here:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/04/11/zimmerman.charges.pdf

Hold on...checking...

Yep.

Until some lady starts singing we are talking about M2 and running around in a manslaughter speculation circle.

Please don't let that lady be DeeDee.

Unless she does a trio with Nakasone & Mora.


Because that would be AWESOME!!!!

 

[BreezeWood]

What specifically is Zimmerman lying about?

George Zimmerman's bond revoked by judge, 48 hours to surrender in Trayvon Martin killing - Crimesider - CBS News

George Zimmerman's bond revoked by judge, 48 hours to surrender in Trayvon Martin killing

Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester Jr. said that Zimmerman engaged in "material falsehood" about money in issuing his ruling.

everything.

He hasn't even testified yet and you believe he is lying.
You have no credibility as your mind is already made up.
Made up by the liars that put up a 6th grade photo of Zimmerman, conned you into believing Zimmerman ran down Martin and shot him and conned by the people that claimed Zimmerman was commanded and ordered by police to not follow Martin.
Those are the only lies exposed to date.

Those are the only lies exposed to date.


no, you are wrong ... we know, its now time for the idiot - TemplarKormac

George Zimmerman bond revoked: A judge today revoked George Zimmerman's bond in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin - Orlando Sentinel

George Zimmerman's bond revoked in shooting of Trayvon Martin

"Defendant has intentionally deceived the court with the assistance of his wife," the motion says. "During the jail phone calls both of them spoke in code to hide what they were doing."

During the jail phone calls both of them spoke in code to hide what they were doing.


he is a proven liar ... nothing more nothing less.

 

[TemplarKormac]

everything.

He hasn't even testified yet and you believe he is lying.
You have no credibility as your mind is already made up.
Made up by the liars that put up a 6th grade photo of Zimmerman, conned you into believing Zimmerman ran down Martin and shot him and conned by the people that claimed Zimmerman was commanded and ordered by police to not follow Martin.
Those are the only lies exposed to date.

Those are the only lies exposed to date.


no, you are wrong ... we know, its now time for the idiot - TemplarKormac


George Zimmerman bond revoked: A judge today revoked George Zimmerman's bond in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin - Orlando Sentinel

George Zimmerman's bond revoked in shooting of Trayvon Martin

"Defendant has intentionally deceived the court with the assistance of his wife," the motion says. "During the jail phone calls both of them spoke in code to hide what they were doing."


During the jail phone calls both of them spoke in code to hide what they were doing.


he is a proven liar ... nothing more nothing less.

Lmao. You can't call a man a liar when he has been proven correct in court where it matters. All you have left is the "credibility" defense. You are desperate, nothing more, nothing less.

And um, did you just post that last night?

 

[SantaFeWay]

Ok..in FL, manslaughter is an automatic lesser included, it seems. Foxfyre is correct. It has not been decided yet. Defense motion(s) before jury instructions will ultimately force Judge Nelson to decide whether or not to include manslaughter.

Evidence in the Zimmerman Case May Not Support a Charge of Murder in the 2nd! | Malia Litman's Blog

Thanks for the info, all.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

When this farce of a trial is over and Zimmerman is acquitted, he is going to write a book and make millions! Small consolation for perilously f'ing with an innocent man's life!

But, it'll be a nice f you! to all you bigot f'ing libtards!

SUCK IT, BITCHES!

and he'll probably get an assload of money from his lawsuits against NBC, ABC, and CNN.

 

[testarosa]

I'm sorry.

I need to get off the ride I'm getting dizzy.

 

[25Caliber]

The official charge is M2. But when the judge goes to give instructions to the jury she will include the lesser charges...at that time the defense can object to the manslaughter by culpable negligence.

So as of now it is a given, because in the state of Florida lesser charges of manslaughter have to be included with the charges of M2. I would assume that at that time they will have a separate hearing over it and the defense will have opportunity to object, which they most certainly will to the lesser charge of Man Culp Neg.

Thats the way i understand it anyway.

 

[AmyNation]

How well did OJ's "If I did it" book do?

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

How well did OJ's "If I did it" book do?

Key difference: OJ was guilty, GZ is innocent.

 

[AmyNation]

GZ didn't kill Trayvon Martin?

I had no idea he was arguing that.

 

[Missourian]

This is what I think I understand from our discussion and the articles and statutes...

1) Murder 2 is the only charge so far.

2) If requested by the prosecution, both voluntary and involuntary manslaughter must be included, BUT...

3) The Defense may challenge Involuntary Manslaughter as a lesser included charge and should win that challenge, because the Prosecution never argued that Martin's death was the result of culpable negligence...but it's not a sure thing.

4) So involuntary manslaughter is probably off the table.

5) If the Jury returns a finding of self defense on the Murder 2 charge, that would preclude a guilty verdict on Voluntary Manslaughter...as the justification defense covers both crimes.

Do I have this straight?

 

[RKMBrown]

If Zimmerman had his gun out, walking around in the dark and killed Martin after a scuffle, I could see negligence. But he didn't, or so we think since no one saw and the evidence suggests that Martin attacked Zimmerman. The gun didn't come out until Zimmerman thought he had no other choice.

no other "way" to win the fist fight...

You are screaming for help, no one comes
You see someone in the distance, you call for help and that person turns and walks away.
You are getting your ass whooped and can't get away
Your attacker then say, "You're going to die tonight"

You too would have pulled your gun and shot your attacker. In Zimmermans mind, he had no other option.

Nope. Already been there. Didn't have a gun. Won the fight in the end.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

How well did OJ's "If I did it" book do?

The publisher of If I Did It: Confessions of a Killer, O.J. Simpson's hypothetical account of his ex-wife's slaying, says the book has hit No. 2 on the New York Times bestseller list for non-fiction

O.J.'s If I Did It reaches bestseller status - Arts & Entertainment - CBC News

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

GZ didn't kill Trayvon Martin?

I had no idea he was arguing that.

Kill or murder? Because, I don't think anybody is disputing that he killed Travis.