The Official Zimmerman Trial Verdict Thread

[wharfrat]

Florida defines murder in the second degree as:

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree . . .

Florida’s standard jury instruction for murder 2 notes that:

An act is “imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that:

a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another, and
is done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent, and
is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life.

-- words of Andrew Branca found at Getting to Murder 2: Finding George Zimmerman?s ?Depraved Mind?

Then look at "manslaughter." Law of Self Defense ? FL 782.07 Manslaughter

"Culpable negligence." That's the key element of "manslaughter."

It's a really BIG problem for the prosecution because if the jury agrees that the intentional acts of pulling out the gun and firing it at the person (TM) was "justified," then it is NOT "negligence" of any stripe or flavor.

Judge Nelson whittled down manslaughter even further this morning. An instruction for voluntary manslaughter (by act) will be given, but not for involuntary (culpable negligence). I'm aware you know the distinction; I just put the proceeding in parentheses to clarify for others.

 

[Foxfyre]

Has a USMB tread ever hit 1000 pages? Just wondering.

The Coffee Shop passed 1000 pages years ago.

 

[Rat in the Hat]

The foam rubber doll is in the courtroom.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Interesting................apparently a lot of you posters have never had a bloody nose.

Yeah....................it can go down your throat, but when it does, you cough and sneeze trying to keep the blood from going down in your lungs. Sorry, but the body is wired to do that very thing.

And.....................when you sneeze, or cough, or figure out somewhere else for the blood to go, it's generally not in the closed part of the body.

Me personally? I think that Zimmerman followed TM, and was confronted by him (BTW................FL law says it doesn't matter who wins, it matters who starts the fight) and TM punched him in the nose for hassling him (that is................after GZ threw the first punch as stated by the girl he'd called when this happened), and GZ was pissed about having his ass kicked (remember, he scored low in the self defense class) and pulled the gun and shot TM.

GZ needs to go to jail. For at least 5 years.

Zimmerman needs to go to jail for a long time for murdering an unarmed, innocent citizen who was just minding his own business in a place he had every right to be in. He used lethal force over a few scratches on the back of his head, a black eye and a bloody nose. Wrong. So, very, very wrong. Unless the jury are also insane, pro-gun nut cases who hate and fear black teenagers, Zimmerman will do some serious time. Which he richly deserves. He never should have had or been carrying a gun, he never should have followed Trayvon. Why did Zimmerman never identifiy himself to Trayvon? Why didn't he warn Trayvon he had a concealed weapon? He's a murderer, pure and simple.

^ except that's not what happened.

Dizzy can't even lay out the evidence fairly or accurately.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Court is back in session. Prosecution will begin closing arguments shortly.

 

[CrazedScotsman]

Ok, what is Second Degree Murder and what is Manslaughter? and none of this legal crap either. Just tell me what each says in a way I, yes, even I, would understand it. I know I ask a lot of you and may take some time to get it posted. Try to include pictures and small words. I like pictures and small words I can understand better.

Thank You

In a nutshell. . . .

Murder is death caused by an intent to kill somebody unlawfully..

Manslaughter is death caused by a negligent act or intent to cause harm, but not death, to another.

If you ram your car into somebody with the intent to kill them that is murder. First degree, if you planned it out in advance. Second degree if it was a spur of the moment choice.

If yu ram your car into somebody while texting or while drunk and they die as a result of that, that is manslaughter.

The gray area is in the shooting of somebody who is beating the crap out of you. The jury has to decide if George Zimmeman was justified in using deadly force in that situation. I believe the defense has made an adequate case that he could have been--enough of a case to create reasonable doubt re murder or manslaughter, though I don't think the judge should allow the manslaughter charge at the 11th hour. The defense didn't put up a rigorous objection to that as they did re the child abuse charge, though, so I don't think the defense is really worried about that all that much.

Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he got sucker punched
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he was knocked down
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when Martin sat on top of him
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when Martin was pummeling him
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when his head was being slammed into the concrete
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he screamed for help, "But none came"
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he saw someone turn and walk away
Zimmerman did pull his gun and shot Martin after he thought Martin was going for his gun.

 

[PaulS1950]

All creatures, great and small, have the right to defend their lives. That is a "natural right" that exists throughout the natural world. Anytime one person attacks another with the intent to do grievous bodily harm or to take a life we have the right to use any force to eliminate that threat.

The hard part is to get a jury to understand that you felt the threat was that grievous. The real travesty is that even if you are found not guilty of a crime you then are dragged through civil court and sued for damages or "wrongful death" of the attacker.

In every training course I have ever been in I was told that if you use a gun in self defense or otherwise your life will never be the same. That is why if you are carrying a concealed weapon you need to carry personal liability insurance that covers the use of a firearm in justifiable cases. If you don't have insurance then you should leave the gun at home.

 

[Avatar4321]

At any rate, I want this judge investigated for her conduct towards the defense. I mean come on.

Sadly, she isn't atypical of judges in the United States. I've been lucky to have pretty good judges to work with, but I've had to deal with judges who shouldn't be anywhere near the bench. One judge I know is the nicest guy off the bench, but when he gets up there he is absolutely crazy with his rulings.

'We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion." (D&C 121:39)

 

[RKMBrown]

Ok, what is Second Degree Murder and what is Manslaughter? and none of this legal crap either. Just tell me what each says in a way I, yes, even I, would understand it. I know I ask a lot of you and may take some time to get it posted. Try to include pictures and small words. I like pictures and small words I can understand better.

Thank You

In a nutshell. . . .

Murder is death caused by an intent to kill somebody unlawfully..

Manslaughter is death caused by a negligent act or intent to cause harm, but not death, to another.

If you ram your car into somebody with the intent to kill them that is murder. First degree, if you planned it out in advance. Second degree if it was a spur of the moment choice.

If yu ram your car into somebody while texting or while drunk and they die as a result of that, that is manslaughter.

The gray area is in the shooting of somebody who is beating the crap out of you. The jury has to decide if George Zimmeman was justified in using deadly force in that situation. I believe the defense has made an adequate case that he could have been--enough of a case to create reasonable doubt re murder or manslaughter, though I don't think the judge should allow the manslaughter charge at the 11th hour. The defense didn't put up a rigorous objection to that as they did re the child abuse charge, though, so I don't think the defense is really worried about that all that much.

Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he got sucker punched
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he was knocked down
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when Martin sat on top of him
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when Martin was pummeling him
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when his head was being slammed into the concrete
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he screamed for help, "But none came"
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he saw someone turn and walk away
Zimmerman did pull his gun and shot Martin after he thought Martin was going for his gun.

According to "Zimmerman." Of course dead teens tell no tales.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Interesting................apparently a lot of you posters have never had a bloody nose.

Yeah....................it can go down your throat, but when it does, you cough and sneeze trying to keep the blood from going down in your lungs. Sorry, but the body is wired to do that very thing.

And.....................when you sneeze, or cough, or figure out somewhere else for the blood to go, it's generally not in the closed part of the body.

Me personally? I think that Zimmerman followed TM, and was confronted by him (BTW................FL law says it doesn't matter who wins, it matters who starts the fight) and TM punched him in the nose for hassling him (that is................after GZ threw the first punch as stated by the girl he'd called when this happened), and GZ was pissed about having his ass kicked (remember, he scored low in the self defense class) and pulled the gun and shot TM.

GZ needs to go to jail. For at least 5 years.

The girl said she heard a bump then she heard wet grass. That isn't evidence that GZ threw the first munch you moron!

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Except he wasnt stalking Trayvon. There is a reason stalking wasn't charged. There is absolutely zero evidence to support a stalking charge.

Stalking is never charged when there's someone arrested for murder. Stalking is something that would be charged by itself when there's no killing.

I'll admit that saying he was stalking is a little bit of a stretch, but since no one has come up with a better word to describe it, I use it. He was ALMOST stalking, so close to it as to be indecipherable. Well you get the idea.

It was almost stalking. It was kind of like stalking. I can call it stalking if I want to and you can't stop me, nyah nyah.
You're a psycho knob muffin.

I'm a psycho because I never fully agreed it was pure stalking?

That shows I have values.

I use the word "stalking" because like many who believe GZ is guilty, I'm sure, use it because it's expedient to do so and just merely to say he followed is terribly lacking. He followed with a gun, which is begging for a disaster, like just what happened. Furthermore, he knew very well that there was a very high chance of a confrontation to occur, when he followed someone. You'd have to be a moron to think there wouldn't be.

BTW Muffin is the name of my dog. Don't abuse it XXXXXX.

 

[rdean]

Say you are walking home from buying a bag of Skittles and someone starts following you so you run off. Say you think you got away and suddenly, you hear "You punks always get away" so you turn around. Then they shoot you in the chest and you die. Guess you didn't get the chance to defend yourself.

 

[Foxfyre]

Ok, what is Second Degree Murder and what is Manslaughter? and none of this legal crap either. Just tell me what each says in a way I, yes, even I, would understand it. I know I ask a lot of you and may take some time to get it posted. Try to include pictures and small words. I like pictures and small words I can understand better.

Thank You

In a nutshell. . . .

Murder is death caused by an intent to kill somebody unlawfully..

Manslaughter is death caused by a negligent act or intent to cause harm, but not death, to another.

If you ram your car into somebody with the intent to kill them that is murder. First degree, if you planned it out in advance. Second degree if it was a spur of the moment choice.

If yu ram your car into somebody while texting or while drunk and they die as a result of that, that is manslaughter.

The gray area is in the shooting of somebody who is beating the crap out of you. The jury has to decide if George Zimmeman was justified in using deadly force in that situation. I believe the defense has made an adequate case that he could have been--enough of a case to create reasonable doubt re murder or manslaughter, though I don't think the judge should allow the manslaughter charge at the 11th hour. The defense didn't put up a rigorous objection to that as they did re the child abuse charge, though, so I don't think the defense is really worried about that all that much.

Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he got sucker punched
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he was knocked down
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when Martin sat on top of him
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when Martin was pummeling him
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when his head was being slammed into the concrete
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he screamed for help, "But none came"
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he saw someone turn and walk away
Zimmerman did pull his gun and shot Martin after he thought Martin was going for his gun.

That was HIS testimony and is not verified by any other source, however, so the defendent's testimony alone may or may not ring credible to the jury. But all the other facts put into evidence as to the situation that existed at the time, the injuries the defendent sustained, the lack of injuries on Martin, etc. strongly support an argument of self defense. I don't see how any jury could ignore all that and not have reasonable doubt.

 

[wavingrl]

The foam rubber doll is in the courtroom.

before I changed channels I noticed HLN had a foam rubber doll--a pitiful reenactment was taking place--'After Hours'.

sigh. Things that just should not be allowed.

 

[Brain357]

Well, what does "no history of violence" mean? The pics from his phone certainly suggest violence. I dont know why Martin ran off then came back. Do you think that isn't what happened? Because every piece of circumstantial evidence says it did.

By history of violence I mean criminal history. Or even bringing in kids from school who say he beat them up. This hasnt happened to my knowledge.

Ok, what evidence says he did then? Since the shooting happened a good distance from the car it's clear Zimmerman followed Martin.

Please show evidence that Zimmerman committed a crime if he "followed Martin." What crime was that again? Hello?

Didn't say it was a crime. But what happened after that? Did Martin who has no history of violence really just attack him? Seems a bit unlikely. He did kill Martin, that we know.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Jury has been brought in.

 

[Sarah G]

Ok, what is Second Degree Murder and what is Manslaughter? and none of this legal crap either. Just tell me what each says in a way I, yes, even I, would understand it. I know I ask a lot of you and may take some time to get it posted. Try to include pictures and small words. I like pictures and small words I can understand better.

Thank You

In a nutshell. . . .

Murder is death caused by an intent to kill somebody unlawfully..

Manslaughter is death caused by a negligent act or intent to cause harm, but not death, to another.

If you ram your car into somebody with the intent to kill them that is murder. First degree, if you planned it out in advance. Second degree if it was a spur of the moment choice.

If yu ram your car into somebody while texting or while drunk and they die as a result of that, that is manslaughter.

The gray area is in the shooting of somebody who is beating the crap out of you. The jury has to decide if George Zimmeman was justified in using deadly force in that situation. I believe the defense has made an adequate case that he could have been--enough of a case to create reasonable doubt re murder or manslaughter, though I don't think the judge should allow the manslaughter charge at the 11th hour. The defense didn't put up a rigorous objection to that as they did re the child abuse charge, though, so I don't think the defense is really worried about that all that much.

Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he got sucker punched
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he was knocked down
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when Martin sat on top of him
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when Martin was pummeling him
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when his head was being slammed into the concrete
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he screamed for help, "But none came"
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he saw someone turn and walk away
Zimmerman did pull his gun and shot Martin after he thought Martin was going for his gun.

You are assuming a lot or exaggerating to make some sort of point. At any rate, the jury will have this case soon enough.

 

[TemplarKormac]

At any rate, I want this judge investigated for her conduct towards the defense. I mean come on.

Sadly, she isn't atypical of judges in the United States. I've been lucky to have pretty good judges to work with, but I've had to deal with judges who shouldn't be anywhere near the bench. One judge I know is the nicest guy off the bench, but when he gets up there he is absolutely crazy with his rulings.

'We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion." (D&C 121:39)

So basically, we throw judicial ethics out of the window?

 

[R.D.]

In a nutshell. . . .

Murder is death caused by an intent to kill somebody unlawfully..

Manslaughter is death caused by a negligent act or intent to cause harm, but not death, to another.

If you ram your car into somebody with the intent to kill them that is murder. First degree, if you planned it out in advance. Second degree if it was a spur of the moment choice.

If yu ram your car into somebody while texting or while drunk and they die as a result of that, that is manslaughter.

The gray area is in the shooting of somebody who is beating the crap out of you. The jury has to decide if George Zimmeman was justified in using deadly force in that situation. I believe the defense has made an adequate case that he could have been--enough of a case to create reasonable doubt re murder or manslaughter, though I don't think the judge should allow the manslaughter charge at the 11th hour. The defense didn't put up a rigorous objection to that as they did re the child abuse charge, though, so I don't think the defense is really worried about that all that much.

Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he got sucker punched
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he was knocked down
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when Martin sat on top of him
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when Martin was pummeling him
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when his head was being slammed into the concrete
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he screamed for help, "But none came"
Zimmerman didn't pull his gun when he saw someone turn and walk away
Zimmerman did pull his gun and shot Martin after he thought Martin was going for his gun.

According to "Zimmerman." Of course dead teens tell no tales.

 

[Avatar4321]

Say you are walking home from buying a bag of Skittles and someone starts following you so you run off. Say you think you got away and suddenly, you hear "You punks always get away" so you turn around. Then they shoot you in the chest and you die. Guess you didn't get the chance to defend yourself.

How does it feel to be so dishonest that you literally have to make things up?