NYcarbineer
Diamond Member
The OP knows the answer to his question because he manufactured an imaginary scenario out of thin air that itself has only one answer.
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The whole "collusion" faux scandal is nothing but an imaginary scenario.The OP knows the answer to his question because he manufactured an imaginary scenario out of thin air that itself has only one answer.
The OP knows the answer to his question because he manufactured an imaginary scenario out of thin air that itself has only one answer.
The whole "collusion" faux scandal is nothing but an imaginary scenario.The OP knows the answer to his question because he manufactured an imaginary scenario out of thin air that itself has only one answer.
The OP knows the answer to his question because he manufactured an imaginary scenario out of thin air that itself has only one answer.
Agree--as if it's supposed to matter who contacted who first. It doesn't it's still TREASON.
Not a single law, federal or state!I've posed this hypothetical question to a couple of members and so far no one seems up to the task of providing an answer. So now I'm posing it the whole board.
Ok, here's a hypothetical scenario. Let's say a Trump associate spoke to a Russian representative. The Russian told him we have some really bad shit on the hildabitch and the representative said wow, it would sure help us if you released it on Tuesday and they did exactly that.
Tell me, what specific law would have been broken? Don't give me an opinion, quote the law.
Any takers?
.
The OP knows the answer to his question because he manufactured an imaginary scenario out of thin air that itself has only one answer.
Agree--as if it's supposed to matter who contacted who first. It doesn't it's still TREASON.
It would be like me saying in 2012 if Benghazi was investigated and no one found any crime had been committed,
what crime was committed?
Which Trump campaign member "conspired" with any hackers? Do you have any evidence of any of your sinister accusations?
Well it could be anyone of them--but it all started in Cleveland during the RNC Convention--and these are names we've heard before.
Kushner's involvement in a meeting was first reported by The New Yorker, and Flynn's by The New York Times.
The administration official disputed the idea that accepting a meeting with the Russian ambassador could be cause for concern in light of the discussion about Russian meddling in the US election, characterizing the meeting as merely an attempt to meet key international players during the transition to power.
Then this:
"Another national security adviser to the Trump campaign, J.D. Gordon, also disclosed Thursday that he had met with Kislyak, this time during the Republican National Convention in Cleveland in July. That meeting was first reported by USA Today.
Gordon told CNN that along with national security advisers Carter Page and Walid Phares, Gordon stressed to the Russian envoy that he would like to improve relations with Russia.
Then at this same time--Republican Convention, Cleveland in July, 2016 and long before they were even close to winning an election they decided to write foreign policy with the Russian Ambassador.
"Gordon had advocated for language in the GOP platform that the Ukrainians not be armed in their battle against pro-Russian separatists, an effort was ultimately successful. But Gordon says he was simply advocating what Trump himself had expressed -- that he did not wish to see major war break out over the situation in Ukraine."
More Trump advisers disclose meeting with Russia's ambassador - CNNPolitics.com
This information came out only (AFTER Flynn was busted and only AFTER Session's lied under to Oath to congress and only AFTER the Trump administration denied 5 times that they had contact with any Russians during the campaign season.)
Analysis | 5 times Donald Trump’s team denied contact with Russia
This sent off a tornado siren to every intelligence agency in this country, including abroad. Which is when Comey testified that the FBI started it's investigation into the Trump campaign.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/20/us/politics/fbi-investigation-trump-russia-comey.html?_r=0
Then this comes out: Shep Smith states that they have phone records of Trump surrogates being on the phone not only with the Russian ambassador, but Russian intelligence agents, including the "very day" that the DNC databases were being hacked into.
CNN confirms it
Trump aides were in constant touch with senior Russian officials during campaign - CNNPolitics.com
John McCain wants to know why the "we will not arm the Ukranians against pro-Russian separtists" was put into the Republican Platform.
Adam Schiff cochair of the House intelligence committee states there is MORE than circumstantial evidence.
Right now there are Grand Jury Subpoenas against General Michael Flynn--who has already requested immunity from prosecution, with his lawyers stating "he has a story to tell."
Michael Flynn targeted by grand jury subpoenas, sources confirm
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/30/us/politics/michael-flynn-congress-immunity-russia.html
Right now the special task force within the Treasury department is looking for money laundering and shell corporations- Paul Manafort's name is mentioned in this also--who was in charge of the Trump campaign-and they're also tracking back to see who PAID the Russian hackers.
Paul Manafort’s finances, alliance with Trump draw Treasury, Justice, FBI eyes
One of Comey's comments about 1-1/2 months ago in front of a Senate hearing--he made this comment: "It's as if they didn't even care if they got caught." That can only mean one thing--they've been caught.
This by no means is going away anytime soon.
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So you believe a GOP Platform debate is treason? Is that what you're left with here? Do YOU favor arming the Ukranians? Is it DEBATABLE? Should be. Without hysteria about Russian collusion FOR WHICH (on the platform issue) you have NONE..
Just like the rest of this paranoid delusion that's wasting everybody's time...
You should be investigating the DNC ties to Russian influence because CLEARLY the Ukranian policy they ENACTED was not largely different from this GOP platform plank.
Arming Ukraine: Where the 2016 Hopefuls Stand
President Barack Obama has so far resisted appeals from the beleaguered Ukrainian military to provide lethal aid such as small arms, ammunition, and anti-tank weaponry—though he has the authority to do so under a law he signed last year. President Petro Poroshenko of Ukraine, U.S. lawmakers from both parties, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, and former diplomats and defense officials have all urged him to consider reversing course.
The former secretary of state and architect of the Russian "reset" policy, who has largely shunned public appearances in the last few months aside from the occasional paid speech, did comment on the Ukraine crisis last month. Clinton said she supported "putting more financial support into the Ukrainian government" during a paid speaking engagement in Winnipeg, Canada, as well as "new equipment, new training for the Ukrainians." She did not specify whether that "equipment" should include lethal arms.
A Clinton spokesman did not respond to a request for comment.
Obviously those 2 DEMS were talking with Russians CONSTANTLY. And the Uranium give away approved by Mrs WhoreHopper is a MUCH clearer conflict of interest than anything you're mentioning. PLUS her campaign manager was LOBBYING for SberBank in Russia that literally OWNS 1/3 of the Russian economy..
If you're paranoid about Russians -- Let's investigate it all. That way --- the kind of question asked in this OP is APPLIED EQUALLY to both primitive warring tribes....
What an ELECTED (already won the election and is sworn into office) President does with Foreign policy is routine.
But no campaign in the middle of a campaign season has ever sat across the table from a Foreign adversary to write foreign policy. (Russians can't vote, nor can they make campaign donations.) Meaning there is absolutely no reason to meet or talk with them at that time.
It is the REASON that sent up the red flags to every intelligence agency in this country & Russian phone lines were wire tapped. Where anyone they were calling and anyone who was calling them was being wiretaped. Clearly they have a lot of contact with Trump surrogates & Russians during the campaign season.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/20/us/politics/fbi-investigation-trump-russia-comey.html?_r=0
Furthermore the Trump administration DENIED 5 TIMES that they had any contact with Russians during the campaign season.
Analysis | 5 times Donald Trump’s team denied contact with Russia
According to Shep Smith's video--they were on the phone not only the Russian Ambassador but Russian intelligence agents, including the very day that DNC databases were getting hacked into.
Wrong. Hillary losing and the resulting mass hysteria of the snowflakes is the only reason that occurred.
The Trump administration denied it? You mean a couple of people denied it. The contacts were totally benign. There's no "there" there.
You're a fucking retard.
Like they say trying to reason with a Trump supporter is like trying to teach Algebra to a Chimpanzee.
This is not really a partisan political issue--it's an American issue--and we will not tolerate someone who colluded with Russians to interfere into ANY of our elections, much less occupy the Oval office. Collusion with a Foreign adversary to interfere into an American election is TREASON.
I'm talking about the election. You honestly believed at the time that the wikileaks revelations would do NO HARM WHATSOEVER to Hillary's chances of winning?
Most Americans had made up their minds, snowflakes were going to vote Democrat no matter what. There wasn't much revealed that people did not already know or did not surprise them about democrats.
Hillary was the worst candidate in US history...that's the real problem with Hillary, not what was released about her.
To begin with, her name should never have been allowed on the ballot on election day anyway for being under MULTIPLE FBI investigations for crimes to conclude ESPIONAGE just days before the election.
As has been since revealed, Trump was also under investigation.
I really have no idea what news station you people are watching (if any) but I imagine it's FOX News and if they're not reporting on the ongoing Senate hearings right now--it's probably time to turn the channel.
"FBI Director James Comey told lawmakers Monday that his agency has been investigating possible coordination between the Trump campaign and Russian officials since last July.
The newly revealed timeline — which Comey detailed in a much-anticipated House Intelligence Committee hearing — means the FBI probe was occurring during the peak of an alleged Russian campaign to destabilize the presidential race and eventually help elect President Donald Trump."
Comey: FBI launched Trump-Russia probe in July
This news is over 3 weeks old now.
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It all started at the RNC Convention in Cleveland when the Russian Ambassador met with Trump Surrogates and they started writing foreign policy together.
Another national security adviser to the Trump campaign, J.D. Gordon, also disclosed Thursday that he had met with Kislyak, this time during the Republican National Convention in Cleveland in July. That meeting was first reported by USA Today.
Gordon had advocated for language in the GOP platform that the Ukrainians not be armed in their battle against pro-Russian separatists, an effort was ultimately successful.
But Gordon says he was simply advocating what Trump himself had expressed -- that he did not wish to see major war break out over the situation in Ukraine.
More Trump advisers disclose meeting with Russia's ambassador - CNNPolitics.com
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Investigating a handful of bad actors is much different than saying the entire administration and congress and intel agencies are lying for unknown reasons.So Tillerson is lying along with everybody else in Washington. Your saying it is the biggest coordinated conspiracy in our nations history? That's really what you think is going on?what are you talking about? Only dipshits like you get off on trying to provoke the snowflakes. The serious guys who are in charge, like Tillerson, do nod and look serious because it is serious. The fact that you can't even describe what the real issue is not recognize the threat just shows that you are only tuned into the partisan web of lies.So when people like Rex Tillerson, and every Republican member of congress all speak out against the Russians actions and deem them a serious threat, and when our intel agencies open active investigations into these "hilarious" claims, Are all of these people just wasting time and energy over nothing? if so, what possible motive would they have in doing this?
So when people like Rex Tillerson, and every Republican member of congress all speak out against the Russians actions
Which actions? Posting fake stories about Hillary? Or posting real stories about Hillary?
Are all of these people just wasting time and energy over nothing?
Pretty much.
if so, what possible motive would they have in doing this?
Laughing at snowflake hysterics is the best way to trigger them.
If they instead nod, look serious and promise to investigate, they'll prevent millions of liberal breakdowns.
It's a joke and a hoax.
I don't know Tillerson's motivation, but it doesn't require a conspiracy for all of Washington to pile on Trump. They are all a bunch of lying scumbags who hate the guy.
You ridicule conspiracy, yet you and all the other snowflakes are accusing the Trump administration of that very thing.
Of course, you've never been above gross hypocrisy
you have?The whole "collusion" faux scandal is nothing but an imaginary scenario.The OP knows the answer to his question because he manufactured an imaginary scenario out of thin air that itself has only one answer.
Because you've seen all the evidence?
well then where is the russia stuff that confirms your sides fking story? someone on your side declared it so so where is that original evidence?Investigating a handful of bad actors is much different than saying the entire administration and congress and intel agencies are lying for unknown reasons.So Tillerson is lying along with everybody else in Washington. Your saying it is the biggest coordinated conspiracy in our nations history? That's really what you think is going on?what are you talking about? Only dipshits like you get off on trying to provoke the snowflakes. The serious guys who are in charge, like Tillerson, do nod and look serious because it is serious. The fact that you can't even describe what the real issue is not recognize the threat just shows that you are only tuned into the partisan web of lies.So when people like Rex Tillerson, and every Republican member of congress all speak out against the Russians actions
Which actions? Posting fake stories about Hillary? Or posting real stories about Hillary?
Are all of these people just wasting time and energy over nothing?
Pretty much.
if so, what possible motive would they have in doing this?
Laughing at snowflake hysterics is the best way to trigger them.
If they instead nod, look serious and promise to investigate, they'll prevent millions of liberal breakdowns.
It's a joke and a hoax.
I don't know Tillerson's motivation, but it doesn't require a conspiracy for all of Washington to pile on Trump. They are all a bunch of lying scumbags who hate the guy.
You ridicule conspiracy, yet you and all the other snowflakes are accusing the Trump administration of that very thing.
Of course, you've never been above gross hypocrisy
Partisans will likely always make a fuss to degrade their opponents, but that's not what we are talking about here. The thing you are calling a joke is being taken very seriously by just about everybody on your side of the politics. Intel agencies, trump appointees like Tillerson, and congressional republicans. You can't dismiss this as partisan smearing and I have yet to hear a logical answer from you to justify your argument. The difference between you and all these officials that are actually acknowledging the seriousness of the Russia situation is that they are privy to the classified information and you are not. Yet you think you know it all.So Tillerson is lying along with everybody else in Washington. Your saying it is the biggest coordinated conspiracy in our nations history? That's really what you think is going on?what are you talking about? Only dipshits like you get off on trying to provoke the snowflakes. The serious guys who are in charge, like Tillerson, do nod and look serious because it is serious. The fact that you can't even describe what the real issue is not recognize the threat just shows that you are only tuned into the partisan web of lies.So when people like Rex Tillerson, and every Republican member of congress all speak out against the Russians actions and deem them a serious threat, and when our intel agencies open active investigations into these "hilarious" claims, Are all of these people just wasting time and energy over nothing? if so, what possible motive would they have in doing this?
So when people like Rex Tillerson, and every Republican member of congress all speak out against the Russians actions
Which actions? Posting fake stories about Hillary? Or posting real stories about Hillary?
Are all of these people just wasting time and energy over nothing?
Pretty much.
if so, what possible motive would they have in doing this?
Laughing at snowflake hysterics is the best way to trigger them.
If they instead nod, look serious and promise to investigate, they'll prevent millions of liberal breakdowns.
It's a joke and a hoax.
We've investigated jokes and hoaxes before.
Remember GHW Bush flying in an SR-71 to get Iran to keep the hostages until Jan 20, 1981?
dude, just post up the original evidence that started all of this fake shit.Partisans will likely always make a fuss to degrade their opponents, but that's not what we are talking about here. The thing you are calling a joke is being taken very seriously by just about everybody on your side of the politics. Intel agencies, trump appointees like Tillerson, and congressional republicans. You can't dismiss this as partisan smearing and I have yet to hear a logical answer from you to justify your argument. The difference between you and all these officials that are actually acknowledging the seriousness of the Russia situation is that they are privy to the classified information and you are not. Yet you think you know it all.So Tillerson is lying along with everybody else in Washington. Your saying it is the biggest coordinated conspiracy in our nations history? That's really what you think is going on?what are you talking about? Only dipshits like you get off on trying to provoke the snowflakes. The serious guys who are in charge, like Tillerson, do nod and look serious because it is serious. The fact that you can't even describe what the real issue is not recognize the threat just shows that you are only tuned into the partisan web of lies.So when people like Rex Tillerson, and every Republican member of congress all speak out against the Russians actions
Which actions? Posting fake stories about Hillary? Or posting real stories about Hillary?
Are all of these people just wasting time and energy over nothing?
Pretty much.
if so, what possible motive would they have in doing this?
Laughing at snowflake hysterics is the best way to trigger them.
If they instead nod, look serious and promise to investigate, they'll prevent millions of liberal breakdowns.
It's a joke and a hoax.
We've investigated jokes and hoaxes before.
Remember GHW Bush flying in an SR-71 to get Iran to keep the hostages until Jan 20, 1981?
Where is the classified information that proves Russia's interference and details how they did it? "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you"well then where is the russia stuff that confirms your sides fking story? someone on your side declared it so so where is that original evidence?Investigating a handful of bad actors is much different than saying the entire administration and congress and intel agencies are lying for unknown reasons.So Tillerson is lying along with everybody else in Washington. Your saying it is the biggest coordinated conspiracy in our nations history? That's really what you think is going on?what are you talking about? Only dipshits like you get off on trying to provoke the snowflakes. The serious guys who are in charge, like Tillerson, do nod and look serious because it is serious. The fact that you can't even describe what the real issue is not recognize the threat just shows that you are only tuned into the partisan web of lies.
It's a joke and a hoax.
I don't know Tillerson's motivation, but it doesn't require a conspiracy for all of Washington to pile on Trump. They are all a bunch of lying scumbags who hate the guy.
You ridicule conspiracy, yet you and all the other snowflakes are accusing the Trump administration of that very thing.
Of course, you've never been above gross hypocrisy
so you are still alive, so I see you got shit.Where is the classified information that proves Russia's interference and details how they did it? "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you"well then where is the russia stuff that confirms your sides fking story? someone on your side declared it so so where is that original evidence?Investigating a handful of bad actors is much different than saying the entire administration and congress and intel agencies are lying for unknown reasons.So Tillerson is lying along with everybody else in Washington. Your saying it is the biggest coordinated conspiracy in our nations history? That's really what you think is going on?It's a joke and a hoax.
I don't know Tillerson's motivation, but it doesn't require a conspiracy for all of Washington to pile on Trump. They are all a bunch of lying scumbags who hate the guy.
You ridicule conspiracy, yet you and all the other snowflakes are accusing the Trump administration of that very thing.
Of course, you've never been above gross hypocrisy
Guess you're gonna just have to be patient like the rest of us and wait for the findings of the investigation.
Partisans will likely always make a fuss to degrade their opponents, but that's not what we are talking about here. The thing you are calling a joke is being taken very seriously by just about everybody on your side of the politics. Intel agencies, trump appointees like Tillerson, and congressional republicans. You can't dismiss this as partisan smearing and I have yet to hear a logical answer from you to justify your argument. The difference between you and all these officials that are actually acknowledging the seriousness of the Russia situation is that they are privy to the classified information and you are not. Yet you think you know it all.So Tillerson is lying along with everybody else in Washington. Your saying it is the biggest coordinated conspiracy in our nations history? That's really what you think is going on?what are you talking about? Only dipshits like you get off on trying to provoke the snowflakes. The serious guys who are in charge, like Tillerson, do nod and look serious because it is serious. The fact that you can't even describe what the real issue is not recognize the threat just shows that you are only tuned into the partisan web of lies.So when people like Rex Tillerson, and every Republican member of congress all speak out against the Russians actions
Which actions? Posting fake stories about Hillary? Or posting real stories about Hillary?
Are all of these people just wasting time and energy over nothing?
Pretty much.
if so, what possible motive would they have in doing this?
Laughing at snowflake hysterics is the best way to trigger them.
If they instead nod, look serious and promise to investigate, they'll prevent millions of liberal breakdowns.
It's a joke and a hoax.
We've investigated jokes and hoaxes before.
Remember GHW Bush flying in an SR-71 to get Iran to keep the hostages until Jan 20, 1981?
You don't remember what started it? Here is a reminder... our intel agencies published a report showing that Russians interfered in our elections (see below). obama imposed sanctions. Flynn called the Russians and talked about those sanctions then lied about it, the VP and other Trump officials then lied to the American people about it. Then it was revealed that a handful of other Trump surrogates, including his son in law, spoke to the Russians after making statements that nobody had spoken to the Russians. Sessions recused himself from the investigation, it came out Flynn took money from the Russians for speaking and didn't disclose it... I could keep going but I think there is enough shadiness in the story to justify an investigationdude, just post up the original evidence that started all of this fake shit.Partisans will likely always make a fuss to degrade their opponents, but that's not what we are talking about here. The thing you are calling a joke is being taken very seriously by just about everybody on your side of the politics. Intel agencies, trump appointees like Tillerson, and congressional republicans. You can't dismiss this as partisan smearing and I have yet to hear a logical answer from you to justify your argument. The difference between you and all these officials that are actually acknowledging the seriousness of the Russia situation is that they are privy to the classified information and you are not. Yet you think you know it all.So Tillerson is lying along with everybody else in Washington. Your saying it is the biggest coordinated conspiracy in our nations history? That's really what you think is going on?what are you talking about? Only dipshits like you get off on trying to provoke the snowflakes. The serious guys who are in charge, like Tillerson, do nod and look serious because it is serious. The fact that you can't even describe what the real issue is not recognize the threat just shows that you are only tuned into the partisan web of lies.
It's a joke and a hoax.
We've investigated jokes and hoaxes before.
Remember GHW Bush flying in an SR-71 to get Iran to keep the hostages until Jan 20, 1981?
So you claim it is a joke and everybody who is taking the Russian interference seriously is lying and being partisan, is that right? So explain why Tillerson, Trumps outsider friend who he appointed as SOS, is taking it very seriously? I could make a list of other similar people in the Trump admin who feel the same way, but let's start simple. Please explainPartisans will likely always make a fuss to degrade their opponents, but that's not what we are talking about here. The thing you are calling a joke is being taken very seriously by just about everybody on your side of the politics. Intel agencies, trump appointees like Tillerson, and congressional republicans. You can't dismiss this as partisan smearing and I have yet to hear a logical answer from you to justify your argument. The difference between you and all these officials that are actually acknowledging the seriousness of the Russia situation is that they are privy to the classified information and you are not. Yet you think you know it all.So Tillerson is lying along with everybody else in Washington. Your saying it is the biggest coordinated conspiracy in our nations history? That's really what you think is going on?what are you talking about? Only dipshits like you get off on trying to provoke the snowflakes. The serious guys who are in charge, like Tillerson, do nod and look serious because it is serious. The fact that you can't even describe what the real issue is not recognize the threat just shows that you are only tuned into the partisan web of lies.
It's a joke and a hoax.
We've investigated jokes and hoaxes before.
Remember GHW Bush flying in an SR-71 to get Iran to keep the hostages until Jan 20, 1981?
Partisans will likely always make a fuss to degrade their opponents
From the October Surprise to the Russian Hack of the Election, degradation was the correct call.
You can't dismiss this as partisan smearing
I can and I do.
they are privy to the classified information and you are not.
Pssst...Russians posted fake stories on Facebook to beat Hillary....shhhh.....classified.
Partisans will likely always make a fuss to degrade their opponents, but that's not what we are talking about here. The thing you are calling a joke is being taken very seriously by just about everybody on your side of the politics. Intel agencies, trump appointees like Tillerson, and congressional republicans. You can't dismiss this as partisan smearing and I have yet to hear a logical answer from you to justify your argument. The difference between you and all these officials that are actually acknowledging the seriousness of the Russia situation is that they are privy to the classified information and you are not. Yet you think you know it all.So Tillerson is lying along with everybody else in Washington. Your saying it is the biggest coordinated conspiracy in our nations history? That's really what you think is going on?what are you talking about? Only dipshits like you get off on trying to provoke the snowflakes. The serious guys who are in charge, like Tillerson, do nod and look serious because it is serious. The fact that you can't even describe what the real issue is not recognize the threat just shows that you are only tuned into the partisan web of lies.So when people like Rex Tillerson, and every Republican member of congress all speak out against the Russians actions
Which actions? Posting fake stories about Hillary? Or posting real stories about Hillary?
Are all of these people just wasting time and energy over nothing?
Pretty much.
if so, what possible motive would they have in doing this?
Laughing at snowflake hysterics is the best way to trigger them.
If they instead nod, look serious and promise to investigate, they'll prevent millions of liberal breakdowns.
It's a joke and a hoax.
We've investigated jokes and hoaxes before.
Remember GHW Bush flying in an SR-71 to get Iran to keep the hostages until Jan 20, 1981?
Thanks, that was really insightful!Partisans will likely always make a fuss to degrade their opponents, but that's not what we are talking about here. The thing you are calling a joke is being taken very seriously by just about everybody on your side of the politics. Intel agencies, trump appointees like Tillerson, and congressional republicans. You can't dismiss this as partisan smearing and I have yet to hear a logical answer from you to justify your argument. The difference between you and all these officials that are actually acknowledging the seriousness of the Russia situation is that they are privy to the classified information and you are not. Yet you think you know it all.So Tillerson is lying along with everybody else in Washington. Your saying it is the biggest coordinated conspiracy in our nations history? That's really what you think is going on?what are you talking about? Only dipshits like you get off on trying to provoke the snowflakes. The serious guys who are in charge, like Tillerson, do nod and look serious because it is serious. The fact that you can't even describe what the real issue is not recognize the threat just shows that you are only tuned into the partisan web of lies.
It's a joke and a hoax.
We've investigated jokes and hoaxes before.
Remember GHW Bush flying in an SR-71 to get Iran to keep the hostages until Jan 20, 1981?
Yes the far left is good at it as you should know..
Russia conspiracy to cover the fact that Hilary was a horrible candidate and deserved to loose!
But then again to the far left, the new winning is loosing!