The Only Way To Deal With A Situation Like Orlando

[OKTexas]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

 

[waltky]

Given proper military training...

... it might be possible, but...

.. you willin' to be the first to go unarmed...

... up against an AR-15?

 

[OKTexas]

Given proper military training...

... it might be possible, but...

.. you willin' to be the first to go unarmed...

... up against an AR-15?

If the crowd collapses on the shooter, the few hurried shots he gets off will be less accurate and he can't protect his back and flanks, I'm not saying single individuals should try to take them head on. If 40 rushed him at the same time from all angles he would be down in seconds. If you run, you just give them a clear field of fire where they can take time to aim.

 

[Lipush]

That's all fine and dandy to say from behind the computer screen, but being there, your primal instinct is either to run for your life, or completely freeze. It takes initiative, life experience, or high training to pounce on a terrorist unarmed.

 

[Mac1958]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

I've thought about that, and certainly immediately collapsing in on the guy would bring these kinds of things to a fairly quick end.

But then I ask myself if I would be able to instantly summon the courage to do that myself.

I'd like to think so, but....

We're human, and this ain't a movie.
.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

Or arm the victims to start with. It was a gun free zone.

 

[Snouter]

Plus the qu33rs are not exactly interested in sacrificing their needs for someone else.

 

[waltky]

The problem is, it is intutive to flee...

... due to the innate fight or flight response...

... especially when confronted with superior weaponry...

... even thought collectively there may be superior numbers.

It's just a natural instinct...

... and often advised by law enforcement.

Put it this way...

... would you be willing to foot the expense...

... of a lawsuit by family members of one killed...

... tryin' to follow your advice?

 

[emilynghiem]

Given proper military training...

... it might be possible, but...

.. you willin' to be the first to go unarmed...

... up against an AR-15?

If the crowd collapses on the shooter, the few hurried shots he gets off will be less accurate and he can't protect his back and flanks, I'm not saying single individuals should try to take them head on. If 40 rushed him at the same time from all angles he would be down in seconds. If you run, you just give them a clear field of fire where they can take time to aim.

Dear OKTexas
From your point and responses, it seems it would take training in self-defense as well as group defense.
Not a bad idea. if we all had this training AND PEOPLE KNEW IT
then that might add to the deterrent effect as knowing people carry guns.

In Texas people know that citizens carry their own guns so they only go after targets they can isolate and get around that.

Now, you train EVERYONE in police and military tactics, and maybe that will increase deterrence.
People would try to avoid the same traps that military and police have to watch out for.
it could help with awareness and prevention on multiple levels.
Good suggestion, we should add this to community relations and police training,
and public school outreach to make sure people know how to defend themselves and work with authorities.

 

[OKTexas]

That's all fine and dandy to say from behind the computer screen, but being there, your primal instinct is either to run for your life, or completely freeze. It takes initiative, life experience, or high training to pounce on a terrorist unarmed.

No, it takes training, nothing high about it. I always told my people in military units, training is what takes over when your mind takes a vacation. This method can be easily taught to children from Jr. High up because at that age a group could easily take down an adult, but it requires consistent reinforcement. The choice is to let him get off a few shots before you take him down, or give him space and time to reload at least 4 times like the guy in Orlando did.

 

[OKTexas]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

I've thought about that, and certainly immediately collapsing in on the guy would bring these kinds of things to a fairly quick end.

But then I ask myself if I would be able to instantly summon the courage to do that myself.

I'd like to think so, but....

We're human, and this ain't a movie.
.

I agree, that's why I said people would have to be taught to do it.

 

[Mac1958]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

I've thought about that, and certainly immediately collapsing in on the guy would bring these kinds of things to a fairly quick end.

But then I ask myself if I would be able to instantly summon the courage to do that myself.

I'd like to think so, but....

We're human, and this ain't a movie.
.

I agree, that's why I said people would have to be taught to do it.

Yeah - for example, if the club were full of military men and women, the guy's fucking nose would be in the carpet within about seven seconds.
.

 

[emilynghiem]

That's all fine and dandy to say from behind the computer screen, but being there, your primal instinct is either to run for your life, or completely freeze. It takes initiative, life experience, or high training to pounce on a terrorist unarmed.

No, it takes training, nothing high about it. I always told my people in military units, training is what takes over when your mind takes a vacation. This method can be easily taught to children from Jr. High up because at that age a group could easily take down an adult, but it requires consistent reinforcement. The choice is to let him get off a few shots before you take him down, or give him space and time to reload at least 4 times like the guy in Orlando did.

OKTexas
I appoint you in charge of summarizing basic training you'd recommend.
We post these online in an organized manual, and let people contact
their local police or vets to set up training on which areas they want to develop.
With fundraising and business grants or loans,
I say we create jobs for Vets to train people in their local cities and states.

 

[JimBowie1958]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

I've thought about that, and certainly immediately collapsing in on the guy would bring these kinds of things to a fairly quick end.

But then I ask myself if I would be able to instantly summon the courage to do that myself.

I'd like to think so, but....

We're human, and this ain't a movie.
.

When I was in the infantry, our training for an ambush was to CHARGE into the ambush.

At first it seemed suicidal but really it isnt. As you close in with the enemy, you narrow their field of fire in the shortest available distance.

In a case like this one, if you charge the MF you may get shot, but it will be poorly aimed and rushed. You will likely only get wounded. If you throw almost anything at the guys face as you start, like a napkin dispenser, or ash tray, you distract that shot.


But if you try to fake dying by falling to the ground, it is only matter of time before he shoots you and kills you.

 

[OKTexas]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

Or arm the victims to start with. It was a gun free zone.

In a crowd density like that club it could take too much time to get an angle for a clean shot.

 

[JimBowie1958]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

Or arm the victims to start with. It was a gun free zone.

In a crowd density like that club it could take too much time to get an angle for a clean shot.

Sounds cruel, but sometimes you have to SHOOT THROUGH the hostage to stop the bad guy.

 

[OKTexas]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

I've thought about that, and certainly immediately collapsing in on the guy would bring these kinds of things to a fairly quick end.

But then I ask myself if I would be able to instantly summon the courage to do that myself.

I'd like to think so, but....

We're human, and this ain't a movie.
.

I agree, that's why I said people would have to be taught to do it.

Yeah - for example, if the club were full of military men and women, the guy's fucking nose would be in the carpet within about seven seconds.
.

Or less.

 

[Lipush]

Given proper military training...

... it might be possible, but...

.. you willin' to be the first to go unarmed...

... up against an AR-15?

If the crowd collapses on the shooter, the few hurried shots he gets off will be less accurate and he can't protect his back and flanks, I'm not saying single individuals should try to take them head on. If 40 rushed him at the same time from all angles he would be down in seconds. If you run, you just give them a clear field of fire where they can take time to aim.

Dear OKTexas
From your point and responses, it seems it would take training in self-defense as well as group defense.
Not a bad idea. if we all had this training AND PEOPLE KNEW IT
then that might add to the deterrent effect as knowing people carry guns.

In Texas people know that citizens carry their own guns so they only go after targets they can isolate and get around that.

Now, you train EVERYONE in police and military tactics, and maybe that will increase deterrence.
People would try to avoid the same traps that military and police have to watch out for.
it could help with awareness and prevention on multiple levels.
Good suggestion, we should add this to community relations and police training,
and public school outreach to make sure people know how to defend themselves and work with authorities.

Training and/or being alert to the situation.

Few days ago, two shooters opened fire at s crowded restaurant in Tel Aviv. 4 were murdered and at least 10 others critically injured. There were two shooters, not one, like in this case, and they waited at least 10 minutes from the moment they got into the restaurant from when they started shooting (so to catch people less alert to them). Yet the casualties were minimal, thankfully.

So why is that? thanks to civilian alert, the same which they hoped to avoid. A civilian pounced one one of the terrorists with bare hands, unarmed, grabbed a chair and smashed it on his head, after taking two bullets to his stomach. Others took seconds to realize what is going on and some bailed, some chased the terrorists once they began fleeing. Police was there in no time.

In Israel there is a very immediate response by authorities, and civilians are more practices and have very quick reflexes and time response. With people who are NOT used to those kind of things happening on daily basis, it is natural that they won't immediately know how to deal. One cannot expect them to, really.

So it's easy, talking from behind a computer screen

 

[Pumpkin Row]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

Or arm the victims to start with. It was a gun free zone.

In a crowd density like that club it could take too much time to get an angle for a clean shot.

The gunman didn't have any trouble getting an angle. Besides, if enough are armed, one has to be close enough when he enters.

 

[westwall]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

In most situations this would work. The death toll wold be far lower. The problem with it is when they attack soft targets like these they do so for a reason, and that is the people already have a victim mentality so remain victims.