Zone1 The Problem of Evil

[themirrorthief]

Did I claim that evil began with we mortals on this earth? Yes, Lucifer did rebel against God in the premortal world of spirits. Yes, 1/3 of the hosts of heaven turned away from God in the premortal world of spirits. My claim is that evil has always existed and will always exist. If goodness is defined, evil is its opposite. I believe there is opposition in all things.

Adam and Eve were innocent in the garden but that didn't mean evil did not exist. Satan was there to tempt them. He tempted Eve to go against the command of God by mixing truth with lies. He told Eve that she would become like the Gods knowing good and evil which was true. But he also lied and told her she would not die which was false.

Genesis 3:4-5
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

God even verifies that that Adam and Eve became like them.

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So yes evil has always existed and it did not start with we mortal on this earth.

we are God you idiots...even the bible says so...we are made in gods image...look in the mirror if you want to see god....your body is a holy temple...god lives inside you.....god sees all...of course, he looks thro your eyes...its all so simple....all gods work is done by you.....we are god

 

[flan327]

The desperation over your upcoming November rout is hilarious!

Bet me $100

 

[flan327]

we are God you idiots...even the bible says so...we are made in gods image...look in the mirror if you want to see god....your body is a holy temple...god lives inside you.....god sees all...of course, he looks thro your eyes...its all so simple....all gods work is done by you.....we are god

You DO NOT get to speak for atheists or agnostics

 

[Grumblenuts]

The point of relaying Christ's message of doing unto others was to contrast it with those who have believed in human sacrifice. Would those calling for the sacrifice have offered themselves as a sacrifice? There are those who do believe in this world of doing things to others that they would not dream of having be done unto themselves.

"Why presume 'evil' to begin with?" you ask. I don't presume it of myself but believe it because it has been taught to me by God in his holy scriptures. Evil does exist. Little children are alive in Christ and are not held accountable until they reach the age of accountability before God. But evil exists among full grown adults who seek to do bad things. Was it not evil for Hitler to murder the Jews? Is not the contrary of the commandments of God evil? Murder, theft, adultery, child abuse, bearing false witness against others, etc. are all evil according to God. Do you not find these things evil?

I believe someone named Jesus Christ promoted the Golden Rule in his Sermon On The Mount and that was good of him. I do not believe he was the first to do so by far. To me it's just common sense -- meaning with sufficient experience interacting with others on a daily basis, anyone healthy and sane could easily figure out some equivalent statements of wisdom that they've found work well for them and share them with others. No wandering hippy or Sky Daddy necessary. None of this absolute "Good" or "Evil" stuff.

In fact, by mentioning Hitler first you've broken Godwin's Law, effectively ceding the argument. People behave well at times, badly at others. Extremes of both happening are clearly evident. Always interesting in particular but the fact of them happening in general is thoroughly unsurprising. So boring we create -- laws to curb / rewards to promote -- these behaviors. "Good vs. Evil" = classic fear of loss advertising. The intangible backbone of the insurance industry, for example. Shuffle paper, preach unwarranted fear, grab money. Evil?

 

[JustAGuy1]

In your OP, you stated that "God is all loving" aka love.

So how are you defining the word sir?

That is not the topic despite the fact that you are trying to make the topic.

 

[JustAGuy1]

In my church we believe that Joseph Smith was called as a great prophet of the latter days. We believe that he received revelations from God and that in those revelations we learn eternal truths that teach against the philosophical argument known as The Problem of Evil. Here are some of those teachings:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

This verse teaches us that there is something that God himself is telling us that he cannot do. He is telling us that there is a part of man known as his intelligence which was never created or made and that it cannot be created, not even by God. In other words there is a self-existent part of mankind that has always existed and was not created out of nothing by God.

In Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Abraham, we learn this same concept from Abraham.

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

From these verses we learn that there are limits to what God can do. God cannot create something that in itself is self-existent because it has always existed. A part of mankind known as his intelligence is self-existent and exists in the state that it exists in outside of the creation of God. If these intelligences have not achieved a state of goodness like God, and cannot be created to be like God, then God would have to teach them to be more good. So these concepts take away the notion that God could have created us to be perfect like himself. Since a part of man is self-existent, God could not create us to anything outside of what we already were.

2 Nephi 2:11
11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

This verse tells us that there must be opposition in all things. For there to be righteousness, there must be wickedness. For there to be good there must be bad. For there to be life there must be death. For there to be incorruption there must be corruption. For there to be happiness there must be unhappiness or misery. If there was not opposition in all things, then there would be no distinguishing of what is good or bad but would remain as void. So God is telling us that there is a need for opposition in order to have goodness and happiness. So the concept of doing away with evil would do away with goodness. For this reason we don't believe that God would want or desire to eliminate opposition in all things.

The Prophet Joseph Smith also taught that the mean of the word, "create" means to organize something out of things that already exist. In other words, he taught that ex nihilo creation does not exist. The intelligence already existed because it was self-existent and we also learn from the revelations that matter or elements are also is self-existent.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

So, God does not create elements or our intellgence out of nothing (for more on this see my post The Problem with Exnihilo Creation). If this be true, God cannot simply create us to be perfect since we are a combination of that which we were organized from, ie self-existent intelligence and matter. We believe that our spirits are a combination of our intelligences and spirit matter.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

So in summary, if our intelligences are self-existent, then God could not create them to be anymore perfect than what they already existed to be. If our intelligences were in a state of imperfection in following goodness, God could not simply make us to be good but needed another way to help us to become good. If opposition in all things is a true principle, we need opposition for goodness, happiness, joy, etc. to exist. Thus doing away with evil would destroy the goodness of God. I believe this mortal life is only temporary and it is calculated to help us learn to become more like God. From learning good and evil, we become more like God.

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Here we see that learning good and evil gets us to become more like God. I think this temporary life is a school of hard knocks that gives us the opportunity to become more like God.

LDS Bible, I'm jus sayin man.....

Genesis 1:27
27 So God created man in his own aimage, in the image of God created he him; male and bfemale created he them.

Genesis 1

God creates this earth and its heaven and all forms of life in six days—The creative acts of each day are described—God creates man, both male and female, in His own image—Man is given dominion over all things and is commanded to multiply and fill the earth.

abn.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[onefour1]

LDS Bible, I'm jus sayin man.....

Genesis 1:27
27 So God created man in his own aimage, in the image of God created he him; male and bfemale created he them.

Genesis 1

God creates this earth and its heaven and all forms of life in six days—The creative acts of each day are described—God creates man, both male and female, in His own image—Man is given dominion over all things and is commanded to multiply and fill the earth.

abn.churchofjesuschrist.org

Not sure what the reference to man being created in the image of God is implying in your post. I do believe that man was created in the image of God. I just don't believe that man was created from nothing into the image of God. I believe that God took the intelligence of man which is self-existent and created the spirit body of man through combining intelligence with spirit matter which are both eternal. This I believe was done through the process of procreation by God and his Wife. We are the offspring of God.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

I do not believe in ex nihilo creation. I believe the way in which God creates is by organizing from things already in existence. I believe creation from nothing is a false doctrine. So, when God made man on this earth, he created him from the dust of the ground and breathed into him his spirit and man became a living soul.

 

[JustAGuy1]

Not sure what the reference to man being created in the image of God is implying in your post. I do believe that man was created in the image of God. I just don't believe that man was created from nothing into the image of God. I believe that God took the intelligence of man which is self-existent and created the spirit body of man through combining intelligence with spirit matter which are both eternal. This I believe was done through the process of procreation by God and his Wife. We are the offspring of God.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

I do not believe in ex nihilo creation. I believe the way in which God creates is by organizing from things already in existence. I believe creation from nothing is a false doctrine. So, when God made man on this earth, he created him from the dust of ground and breathed into him his spirit and man became a living soul.

God and His wife. Alrighty then.

 

[onefour1]

God and His wife. Alrighty then.

I know this seems difficult to believe when many in Christianity have taught that God was the only thing in existence and that he created everything else out of nothing. So you would naturally think, How could God have a wife? But the bible does not teach that God creates ex nihilo. For a deeper delve into that topic see my link The Problem With Ex Nihilo Creation. So what is the purposes of the sexes in eternity? Is there an eternal reason God created us man and woman. In my faith we believe that families are forever and that a man and woman can be sealed in marriage for time and for all eternity. The revelations given to Joseph Smith have revealed much more about the heavens and our purpose here on earth. I see no contradiction between them and the Bible. There are differences in how some people interpret the Bible however.

One thing that always bothers me about the idea that God was the only thing that existed before he created things out of nothing is that before his very first creation he must have existed for an eternity past all alone and by himself with absolutely nothing else in existence. I find that a bit hard to believe.

 

[Grumblenuts]

One thing that always bothers me about the idea that God was the only thing that existed before he created things out of nothing is that before his very first creation he must have existed for an eternity past all alone and by himself with absolutely nothing else in existence. I find that a bit hard to believe.

Really? The other day I read they've discovered two Earth-like planets less than 100 light years away. Makes you wonder.. Is there life there? Intelligence? Do they believe in gods? Have they written a sort of bible of their own wherein a creator god creates them in "His" image, yet they actually resemble cows or chickens more than humans?..

To me that seems far more likely than there ever being a "creator" and/or "nothing."

 

[Clyde 154]

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "The evolution of the eye is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanished in a puff of logic.

Of course God "proves" that the supernatural exists. If not.......simply use the laws of physics and apply "science" and prove how the universe is a self creating reality. Something men like Carl Sagan and S. Hawking were never able to accomplish. But I am sure the (sock masters) can do much better than Hawking's "The universe created itself from NOTHING".........and then attempt to explain the law of gravity as NOTHING when gravity is very quantifiable through its potential/effects.

The "invisible God" proves His existence through the "things that He has created".......that man is incapable of explaining in any objective, observable, reproducible consistency. Man's so called "Science", which in reality is nothing but a concept based upon "Philosophy".........better known as Theorethical Science. In reality there is only one type of real, objective, observable, reproducible and consistent science...........that science which can be APPLIED to the known laws of physics that concludes in FACTS/TRUTH. Anything else is simply "pretentious".

Proceed......explain how the universe created itself from nothing....in scientific terms.......explain how the effect known as Universal Reality created itself without a SUPERIOR CAUSE (what is superior to nature? nothing according to you, but nature can't explain its own existence)........do so without using the IDEAS of others known as THEORY. A theory is called a theory because it does not possess the facts in evidence to be known as a LAW of Science/physics. That's why there is not, nor will never be a LAW OF EVOLUTION. Its all based upon the philosophical arguments of men..........its can't be proven through the application of the laws of physics. At no time has LIFE ever been created from non living matter......everytime that such an experiment is undertaken it is FALSIFIED by the Scientific Method. If not present the experiment that has produced life without first making use of pre-existing life within the same species.

Something that man can do? He can take the human body apart down to microscopic elements thereof.........1 piece at a time......but he can never re-animate that body once it is robbed of its "invisible spirit".


Then proceed to explain......again with the Scientific Method just how STAR DUST (by majority consisting of 2 gases......Helium and Hydrogne........eventually evolved in life and humanity. Do you really believe the NON PROVEN fairytale that Hydrogen and Helium, actually evolved into every known element in the Universe over the course of some 13 billion years and then evolved into LIFE and HUMANITY? Now that's a fairytale. Why do you profess to believe this even though you can't present the facts to verify your belief? If you did not believe this........you would have to accept the conclusion that applied science leads you..............there has to be a superior Cause to the Effect known as Reality and that cause is SUPERIOR to NATURE...i.e., SUPERNATURAL.

 

[fncceo]

Hydrogen and Helium, actually evolved into every known element in the Universe over the course of some 13 billion years

 

[Bob Blaylock]

POST REPORTED

 

[Grumblenuts]

View attachment 694143

Indeed, it all happens way faster than 13 billions years other than the man-made stuff.

 

[BreezeWood]

God is known to be perfect.

there are reasons for the errant desert religions ... where is that known.

there is nothing refereed to as perfect in existence, figments of imagination - than a true form, purity that is definable.

 

[BreezeWood]

Isn't the problem of evil one that was caused by an angel rebelling against God? Next, he had angels who followed him.

Next, came humans but you got that history.

I'm not excusing humans, but don't think it started with humans. Anyway, God saw what happened and put into motion a plan to save us.

christianity claims they still exist so no their rebellion was not evil - just a little overbearing ... were it evil they would be dead - if not dead, as far from earth as heavenly possible.

 

[MarcATL]

That is not the topic despite the fact that you are trying to make the topic.

Actually, it is.

So I'm waiting for the OP to respond.

 

[onefour1]

there are reasons for the errant desert religions ... where is that known.

there is nothing refereed to as perfect in existence, figments of imagination - than a true form, purity that is definable.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

After Jesus' atonement and resurrection Jesus taught:

3 Nephi 12:48
48 Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect.

 

[onefour1]

Actually, it is.

So I'm waiting for the OP to respond.

response in post #14

 

[MarcATL]

response in post #14

In that case, you kinda answered your own question.

Man is a moral being w/the power to choose.

If you love someone, you listen to them, in the case and relationship to God, you obey Him.

If he created beings who automatically obeyed him w/o choice, we'd be robots.

The reason for sin is due to the power of choice, as you stated in your OP.

God knew it would happen, and He had a plan to deal w/it, to show the universe that He truly is love.

So to all those created beings who may question if God truly is love, the human experiment here on earth proves that He is.