Zone1 The Problem of Evil

[Meriweather]

Can you give examples of good coming from evil?

Good Friday...Easter Sunday

 

[onefour1]

If you were in a culture that believed in human sacrifice, you would not think it is evil. After all, they had their gods too. Romans had their gods who apparently condoned blood sport and murder. They did not see that as evil, it was entertainment. When Christians faced the arena weaponless and let themselves be mauled by wild beasts without resisting, Romans were flabbergasted. It is interesting, IMO, that Rome went Christian after that so, a benevolent life-affirming belief and God prevailed. I think that means something.

What I see that to mean is that mankind is capable of making up their own god and morals of what they believe is right and wrong. My question is whether there is an outside definition of what is right and wrong outside of mankind making up their own? Did these cultures make up their own gods who never really existed? Was their true god Satan? Is there a true God who truly defines what right and wrong is that isn't detrimental to others?

I believe in the teaching of Jesus Christ who taught that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

 

[onefour1]

Good Friday...Easter Sunday

Don't those good things come from the goodness of Christ and not from evil? I think God has used evil to bring about a greater good. But there is a source of good behind it all that brings it about. Without that goodness, nothing good could come from pure evil. The atonement of Jesus Christ required that Jesus, the only one who did not sin, come to this earth and suffer and bleed from every pore and be hung from his hands and feet on a cross to bring about the resurrection and the mercy of God. You are correct that good can come out of evil acts but I think there needs to be goodness behind it or no goodness would come of evil.

 

[Meriweather]

Don't those good things come from the goodness of Christ and not from evil? I think God has used evil to bring about a greater good. But there is a source of good behind it all that brings it about. Without that goodness, nothing good could come from pure evil. The atonement of Jesus Christ required that Jesus, the only one who did not sin, come to this earth and suffer and bleed from every pore and be hung from his hands and feet on a cross to bring about the resurrection and the mercy of God. You are correct that good can come out of evil acts but I think there needs to be goodness behind it or no goodness would come of evil.

When the Creator of all is Good, then the source behind all creation is Goodness. Therefore there is no "pure" evil. A seed of goodness in any evil can blossom into goodness.

 

[Leo123]

What I see that to mean is that mankind is capable of making up their own god and morals of what they believe is right and wrong. My question is whether there is an outside definition of what is right and wrong outside of mankind making up their own? Did these cultures make up their own gods who never really existed? Was their true god Satan? Is there a true God who truly defines what right and wrong is that isn't detrimental to others?

I believe in the teaching of Jesus Christ who taught that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

I believe the Aztecs and Mayans mainly sacrificed their perceived enemies not their own. High status captives were the ones sacrificed. The Romans made their captives fight to the death. That tells me there is an innate human benevolence toward those of their own kind. Jesus taught to be benevolent towards friends and foes equally thereby thwarting evil.

To me, it seems that humans are basically benevolent toward human life UNLESS their BELIEF tells them that certain people are not worthy of benevolence. That COULD be a definition of the Christian God, in whom I too, believe because the alternative, IMO, is entropy which can be seen as evil.

 

[onefour1]

In my church we believe that Joseph Smith was called as a great prophet of the latter days. We believe that he received revelations from God and that in those revelations we learn eternal truths that teach against the philosophical argument known as The Problem of Evil. Here are some of those teachings:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

This verse teaches us that there is something that God himself is telling us that he cannot do. He is telling us that there is a part of man known as his intelligence which was never created or made and that it cannot be created, not even by God. In other words there is a self-existent part of mankind that has always existed and was not created out of nothing by God.

In Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Abraham, we learn this same concept from Abraham.

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

From these verses we learn that there are limits to what God can do. God cannot create something that in itself is self-existent because it has always existed. A part of mankind known as his intelligence is self-existent and exists in the state that it exists in outside of the creation of God. If these intelligences have not achieved a state of goodness like God, and cannot be created to be like God, then God would have to teach them to be more good. So these concepts take away the notion that God could have created us to be perfect like himself. Since a part of man is self-existent, God could not create us to anything outside of what we already were.

2 Nephi 2:11
11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

This verse tells us that there must be opposition in all things. For there to be righteousness, there must be wickedness. For there to be good there must be bad. For there to be life there must be death. For there to be incorruption there must be corruption. For there to be happiness there must be unhappiness or misery. If there was not opposition in all things, then there would be no distinguishing of what is good or bad but would remain as void. So God is telling us that there is a need for opposition in order to have goodness and happiness. So the concept of doing away with evil would do away with goodness. For this reason we don't believe that God would want or desire to eliminate opposition in all things.

The Prophet Joseph Smith also taught that the mean of the word, "create" means to organize something out of things that already exist. In other words, he taught that ex nihilo creation does not exist. The intelligence already existed because it was self-existent and we also learn from the revelations that matter or elements are also is self-existent.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

So, God does not create elements or our intellgence out of nothing (for more on this see my post The Problem with Exnihilo Creation). If this be true, God cannot simply create us to be perfect since we are a combination of that which we were organized from, ie self-existent intelligence and matter. We believe that our spirits are a combination of our intelligences and spirit matter.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

So in summary, if our intelligences are self-existent, then God could not create them to be anymore perfect than what they already existed to be. If our intelligences were in a state of imperfection in following goodness, God could not simply make us to be good but needed another way to help us to become good. If opposition in all things is a true principle, we need opposition for goodness, happiness, joy, etc. to exist. Thus doing away with evil would destroy the goodness of God. I believe this mortal life is only temporary and it is calculated to help us learn to become more like God. From learning good and evil, we become more like God.

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Here we see that learning good and evil gets us to become more like God. I think this temporary life is a school of hard knocks that gives us the opportunity to become more like God.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I believe in the teaching of Jesus Christ who taught that we should do unto others as we would have them do unto us.

Show of hands from those who believe otherwise.. No one? Really? I'm shocked, shocked I tells ya!

Here we see that learning good and evil gets us to become more like God.

Why presume "evil" to begin with? Children are generally more selfish than adults but this is to be expected. They are "born innocent" so must be taught the Golden Rule in conjunction with making painful mistakes interacting with "others" over time. Nothing "evil" about it. The process of maturing is not an exact science. Those who stray or don't advance can't simply be presumed "evil." Being social animals we learn that getting along and looking out for one another generally works out best. Humans get more done with less effort when they work together. Practicing "good" social skills yields far more personal and societal benefit than being a self-absorbed, lonely fool.

 

[SweetSue92]

In my church we believe that Joseph Smith was called as a great prophet of the latter days. We believe that he received revelations from God and that in those revelations we learn eternal truths that teach against the philosophical argument known as The Problem of Evil. Here are some of those teachings:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

This verse teaches us that there is something that God himself is telling us that he cannot do. He is telling us that there is a part of man known as his intelligence which was never created or made and that it cannot be created, not even by God. In other words there is a self-existent part of mankind that has always existed and was not created out of nothing by God.

In Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Abraham, we learn this same concept from Abraham.

Abraham 3:18
18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

From these verses we learn that there are limits to what God can do. God cannot create something that in itself is self-existent because it has always existed. A part of mankind known as his intelligence is self-existent and exists in the state that it exists in outside of the creation of God. If these intelligences have not achieved a state of goodness like God, and cannot be created to be like God, then God would have to teach them to be more good. So these concepts take away the notion that God could have created us to be perfect like himself. Since a part of man is self-existent, God could not create us to anything outside of what we already were.

2 Nephi 2:11
11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

This verse tells us that there must be opposition in all things. For there to be righteousness, there must be wickedness. For there to be good there must be bad. For there to be life there must be death. For there to be incorruption there must be corruption. For there to be happiness there must be unhappiness or misery. If there was not opposition in all things, then there would be no distinguishing of what is good or bad but would remain as void. So God is telling us that there is a need for opposition in order to have goodness and happiness. So the concept of doing away with evil would do away with goodness. For this reason we don't believe that God would want or desire to eliminate opposition in all things.

The Prophet Joseph Smith also taught that the mean of the word, "create" means to organize something out of things that already exist. In other words, he taught that ex nihilo creation does not exist. The intelligence already existed because it was self-existent and we also learn from the revelations that matter or elements are also is self-existent.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

So, God does not create elements or our intellgence out of nothing (for more on this see my post The Problem with Exnihilo Creation). If this be true, God cannot simply create us to be perfect since we are a combination of that which we were organized from, ie self-existent intelligence and matter. We believe that our spirits are a combination of our intelligences and spirit matter.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

So in summary, if our intelligences are self-existent, then God could not create them to be anymore perfect than what they already existed to be. If our intelligences were in a state of imperfection in following goodness, God could not simply make us to be good but needed another way to help us to become good. If opposition in all things is a true principle, we need opposition for goodness, happiness, joy, etc. to exist. Thus doing away with evil would destroy the goodness of God. I believe this mortal life is only temporary and it is calculated to help us learn to become more like God. From learning good and evil, we become more like God.

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Here we see that learning good and evil gets us to become more like God. I think this temporary life is a school of hard knocks that gives us the opportunity to become more like God.

This is heresy.

 

[SweetSue92]

In philosophy, there is a famous argument against the existence of God that goes something like this:

God is a being who is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing), and omnibenevolent (all loving and all good). If God is all powerful, He would certainly have the power to rid the universe of evil. If God is all knowing, He would certainly know how to rid the universe of evil. If God is an all good and loving being, He certainly would not allow the evil in the universe to exist. So, if God exists, then there should be no evil in all the universe. Evil exists therefore there is no God.

Also when giving the answer that man is imperfect and has been given free will and this is why evil exists, I have heard the response that if God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, he should have created us to be perfect like himself and we shouldn't have imperfection. In other words, why didn't God simply create us all as perfect beings? It is argued that if God is omnibenevolent he should have created us all perfect and spared us the pain, suffering and death we experience in this world.

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, our scriptures give us answer to this philosophical argument and I will express those in following posts. In this thread I want to hear from all those who believe in God what their answers are to this philosophical argument.

This is all true.

God is all powerful. He is all knowing. He is all good.

The answer to evil is: it's not the end yet.

The answer is not: something Joseph Smith babbled on about after he looked at some rocks in a hat. Not especially the stuff about man being equal to God because self-existing intelligence or something. yeesh

 

[BreezeWood]

In philosophy, there is a famous argument against the existence of God that goes something like this:

God is a being who is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing), and omnibenevolent (all loving and all good). If God is all powerful, He would certainly have the power to rid the universe of evil. If God is all knowing, He would certainly know how to rid the universe of evil. If God is an all good and loving being, He certainly would not allow the evil in the universe to exist. So, if God exists, then there should be no evil in all the universe. Evil exists therefore there is no God.

Also when giving the answer that man is imperfect and has been given free will and this is why evil exists, I have heard the response that if God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, he should have created us to be perfect like himself and we shouldn't have imperfection. In other words, why didn't God simply create us all as perfect beings? It is argued that if God is omnibenevolent he should have created us all perfect and spared us the pain, suffering and death we experience in this world.

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, our scriptures give us answer to this philosophical argument and I will express those in following posts. In this thread I want to hear from all those who believe in God what their answers are to this philosophical argument.

Also when giving the answer that man is imperfect

that if God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, he should have created us to be perfect like himself ...

there is nothing known that is perfect - what the metaphysical requires for a free spirit, life in the everlasting is purity - without evil.

as prescribed to a&e - triumph of good vs evil - for judgement and remission, their own self determination.

 

[james bond]

The Problem of Evil

Isn't the problem of evil one that was caused by an angel rebelling against God? Next, he had angels who followed him.

Next, came humans but you got that history.

I'm not excusing humans, but don't think it started with humans. Anyway, God saw what happened and put into motion a plan to save us.

 

[flan327]

Not looting a liquor store.

Please get help

 

[flan327]

Please get help

I was raised Roman Catholic
Survived EIGHT years in a Catholic school

I married my first husband in the Church
Buried him there in 1994
My cousin is a Priest

First of all
NEW TESTAMENT VS OLD TESTAMENT

I spent years looking OUTSIDE for a Divine being
Finally looked INSIDE

Now I consider myself a Quaker

 

[flan327]

Please jump off a building.

POST REPORTED

 

[miketx]

POST REPORTED

The desperation over your upcoming November rout is hilarious!

 

[onefour1]

Show of hands from those who believe otherwise.. No one? Really? I'm shocked, shocked I tells ya!

Why presume "evil" to begin with? Children are generally more selfish than adults but this is to be expected. They are "born innocent" so must be taught the Golden Rule in conjunction with making painful mistakes interacting with "others" over time. Nothing "evil" about it. The process of maturing is not an exact science. Those who stray or don't advance can't simply be presumed "evil." Being social animals we learn that getting along and looking out for one another generally works out best. Humans get more done with less effort when they work together. Practicing "good" social skills yields far more personal and societal benefit than being a self-absorbed, lonely fool.

The point of relaying Christ's message of doing unto others was to contrast it with those who have believed in human sacrifice. Would those calling for the sacrifice have offered themselves as a sacrifice? There are those who do believe in this world of doing things to others that they would not dream of having be done unto themselves.

"Why presume 'evil' to begin with?" you ask. I don't presume it of myself but believe it because it has been taught to me by God in his holy scriptures. Evil does exist. Little children are alive in Christ and are not held accountable until they reach the age of accountability before God. But evil exists among full grown adults who seek to do bad things. Was it not evil for Hitler to murder the Jews? Is not the contrary of the commandments of God evil? Murder, theft, adultery, child abuse, bearing false witness against others, etc. are all evil according to God. Do you not find these things evil?

 

[onefour1]

This is heresy.

prove it.

 

[onefour1]

This is all true.

God is all powerful. He is all knowing. He is all good.

The answer to evil is: it's not the end yet.

The answer is not: something Joseph Smith babbled on about after he looked at some rocks in a hat. Not especially the stuff about man being equal to God because self-existing intelligence or something. yeesh

I agree that God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all good being. What I don't believe is that God is all powerful in that he can do absolutely anything imaginable. I believe that there are things that are possible and things that are impossible on an eternal scale. God is all powerful in that he can do all things that are possible to do in the eternities. Things that I believe are impossible even for God are things like:

Can God be a being who has all power and no power simultaneously?
Can God be a being who has all knowledge and no knowledge simultaneously?
Can God be an all good being and simultaneously be an all evil being?
Can God exist and not exist simultaneously?
Can God create that which is self-existent?
I don't believe that God creates ex nihilo or from nothing.

I personally believe that if you can believe God is capable doing the above, then you must fall victim to the argument of the Problem of Evil. So if you don't believe what I believe, then give me your response to my original post and tell me why a benevolent God would allow evil and why God, being all powerful, did not simply create you to be perfect like himself from the beginning and not make you imperfect and subject to sin and evil as you are now.

 

[onefour1]

there is nothing known that is perfect - what the metaphysical requires for a free spirit, life in the everlasting is purity - without evil.

as prescribed to a&e - triumph of good vs evil - for judgement and remission, their own self determination.

God is known to be perfect.

 

[onefour1]

Isn't the problem of evil one that was caused by an angel rebelling against God? Next, he had angels who followed him.

Next, came humans but you got that history.

I'm not excusing humans, but don't think it started with humans. Anyway, God saw what happened and put into motion a plan to save us.

Did I claim that evil began with we mortals on this earth? Yes, Lucifer did rebel against God in the premortal world of spirits. Yes, 1/3 of the hosts of heaven turned away from God in the premortal world of spirits. My claim is that evil has always existed and will always exist. If goodness is defined, evil is its opposite. I believe there is opposition in all things.

Adam and Eve were innocent in the garden but that didn't mean evil did not exist. Satan was there to tempt them. He tempted Eve to go against the command of God by mixing truth with lies. He told Eve that she would become like the Gods knowing good and evil which was true. But he also lied and told her she would not die which was false.

Genesis 3:4-5
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

God even verifies that that Adam and Eve became like them.

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So yes evil has always existed and it did not start with we mortal on this earth.