The problem with the internet.

[PredFan]

I'm old enough to have been here and sentient in the times before the internet. I remember when the only place for these kinds of discussions and debates was in what was called "newsgroups".

There was much discussion and anticipation about how access to information would affect society, and political debate. I remember thinking in those days that getting so many opinions from such a large number of people would lead to solving some problems, or at least some changed minds. Yes we were all that naive.

After the World Wide Web, as it was originally called, came into being we found that we could back up our statements with facts from individuals in authority on just about any subject. In this we were right BUT, as it turns out, the individuals in authority most often don't agree.

All branches of science, including the sciences of economics, psychology, history, medicine, and even the "pseudo-sciences" have a multitude of people putting their ideas, opinions, data, theories, and results out on the internet. You can find people in authority, people who have actual degrees in their fields who spount all kinds of ideas.

ANY internet blogger, or messageboard debater can find someone in authority who will back up anything they need. It doesn't matter what your stand is, you can believe in sasquatch and find a scientist who agrees, you can believe in exratereestrial visitation and find the same thing. Ditto with truthers, creationists, global warming believers, and on and on.

Now, my purpose of starting this thread is not to debate any of those topics that have been debated to death (without either side giving an inch), but to discuss whether access to so much information has actually helped anything.

 

[Michelle420]

From a social standpoint it did. People who live in small isolated areas are able to reach out and meet other like-minded.

Also some news that might never be reported will be re-blogged all over the internet and so some social justice issues which might not otherwise be heard about get exposure.

As far as changing anyone's mind or stand on the issues, maybe not people who are already set in their ways but younger people growing up with the net are definitely shaped by debate and opinions on the net.

Is that good or bad in your opinion?

 

[PredFan]

From a social standpoint it did. People who live in small isolated areas are able to reach out and meet other like-minded.

I agree with that. I didn't mean to imply that the internet has done no good at all.

Also some news that might never be reported will be re-blogged all over the internet and so some social justice issues which might not otherwise be heard about get exposure.

That can be good OR bad. Often times social justice is in the eye of the beholder. If someone doesn't do extensive research on an incident he or she can get a completely wrong view of it.

As far as changing anyone's mind or stand on the issues, maybe not people who are already set in their ways but younger people growing up with the net are definitely shaped by debate and opinions on the net.

Again a double-edged sword. One can go in with pre-concieved notions and find someone or something that will support those notions and ignore that which doesn't. all of that is out there.

Is that good or bad in your opinion?

the fact that every single side of every sungle issue can be found on the internet means that one can be shaped into an opinion that may be completely absent of fact.

 

[Michelle420]

Social Facts are for the most part just opinions.

Politics, social justice and the broadcast news of course all have slants.

People can research and provide what they consider facts as evidence for an argument but evidence can be slanted that's what lawyers do in court.

Social constructions of reality need to place a meaning or create an identity to something in organized society so we can get social acceptance and negotiate a set reality that the majority will agree on.

That said I think the internet is a great arena for those discussions.

 

[JakeStarkey]

An Assange or a Snowden demonstrates the powerful impact of the internet.

Freedom of information and its access enhances the freedom of mankind from government and institutional straitjackets.

One example: the far lefties and the far righties and religious and atheist nuts can't get away with fabrications.

 

[Care4all]

I'm old enough to have been here and sentient in the times before the internet. I remember when the only place for these kinds of discussions and debates was in what was called "newsgroups".

There was much discussion and anticipation about how access to information would affect society, and political debate. I remember thinking in those days that getting so many opinions from such a large number of people would lead to solving some problems, or at least some changed minds. Yes we were all that naive.

After the World Wide Web, as it was originally called, came into being we found that we could back up our statements with facts from individuals in authority on just about any subject. In this we were right BUT, as it turns out, the individuals in authority most often don't agree.

All branches of science, including the sciences of economics, psychology, history, medicine, and even the "pseudo-sciences" have a multitude of people putting their ideas, opinions, data, theories, and results out on the internet. You can find people in authority, people who have actual degrees in their fields who spount all kinds of ideas.

ANY internet blogger, or messageboard debater can find someone in authority who will back up anything they need. It doesn't matter what your stand is, you can believe in sasquatch and find a scientist who agrees, you can believe in exratereestrial visitation and find the same thing. Ditto with truthers, creationists, global warming believers, and on and on.

Now, my purpose of starting this thread is not to debate any of those topics that have been debated to death (without either side giving an inch), but to discuss whether access to so much information has actually helped anything.

I was not sentient in the times as you were before my first internet experience....I had a good life with a good career, that was jammed packed with traveling, and the level of responsibility was HUGE, but all I wanted to do was advance with my career, 50 hours a week, 60 hours a week, 80 hours a week, or with no day off for 6 weeks straight...whatever the Corporation wanted from me I did, whatever it took to get the job done or rather better than just done, I did.... (thank Goodness I had a supportive husband), so I was completely asleep, in the political realm, during the Reagan and Bush 1 and Clinton years....I knew nothing of what was going on in politics, and other than what I occasionally heard listening to Matt Lauer and Katie Curic, or the local news while I was getting dressed or doing my hair and makeup...no time, not even a second to waste on politics and our government...I had a career to build!!!

AND I WAS HAPPY!

I was BLISSFULLY IGNORANT and quite honestly, it was the right thing for me to be, during those times of my career...I had no time for newsgroups or message boards, not if I wanted to achieve all the promotions I strived for....

see, my best advice to anyone under 40 who is working/has a career field, is to not visit boards like this and the million others like this and just go on and use every bit of energy you have in your gut and soul to improve your work standing, to strive for promotions, to do the best you can do in all that you do, and to try to exceed every standard your company or employer may have set....

and to stay off of any kind of cable news as well, only listen to your local news...they will briefly cover national news... It's better not to waste your precious time with the antics that goes on in Washington, it's better not to let yourselves get brought down by all the negativity and name calling that goes on in a place like this...it could and will bring your energy levels down, and your career will not prosper, as it could.

You are right, unless one can navigate and be diligent in their search for truth through using their own God given brain and 'reason', (and be opened to the truth, even if it comes from ones own opponents) there are a gazillion supposed experts that are out there to 'back up' your own particular stance....

It's an absolute mess, as far as I am concerned....and ''the extremes'' with their email and blogging and linking and liking and forwarding campaigns are winning...not you or me or the average Joe/Josephine citizens....

Internet, for the most part in chats or on boards or blogs or etc etc etc..........is the land of make believe...of tough guys, of sexy women or men, of know it alls....

I remember when life was REAL.....

 

[PredFan]

Social Facts are for the most part just opinions.

Politics, social justice and the broadcast news of course all have slants.

People can research and provide what they consider facts as evidence for an argument but evidence can be slanted that's what lawyers do in court.

Social constructions of reality need to place a meaning or create an identity to something in organized society so we can get social acceptance and negotiate a set reality that the majority will agree on.

Agreed for the most part.

That said I think the internet is a great arena for those discussions.

Is it a great arena when the discussion leads to nothing?

For example:

If I agree with Theory X, and you disagree. I provide links to people in authority who agree with Theory X, and you respond with people in authority who disagree with Theory X. Then the discussion devolves into a debate on the merits of the "People in authorty" on either side and everything ends in a stalemate. This happens the vast majority of the time. What is accomplished?

 

[PredFan]

An Assange or a Snowden demonstrates the powerful impact of the internet.

Freedom of information and its access enhances the freedom of mankind from government and institutional straitjackets.

One example: the far lefties and the far righties and religious and atheist nuts can't get away with fabrications.

This is not the case. You should be well aware that both extremists have provided pleanty of "proof" of their claims.

 

[whitehall]

It's not just the internet. The information age has eclipsed the education system. Kids don't have to read books and take notes in order to put a report together. All they need to do is tippy tap on their personal information machine and copy stuff that tends to make the teacher happy. The education system teaches kids to come up with information but it doesn't teach them how to think. Politicians and the advertising agencies as well as Hollywood are well aware of the lack of thought process in the general public and they sell us junk and policies (and people) we don't need because we have become overwhelmed with information but too stupid to think.

 

[JakeStarkey]

An Assange or a Snowden demonstrates the powerful impact of the internet.

Freedom of information and its access enhances the freedom of mankind from government and institutional straitjackets.

One example: the far lefties and the far righties and religious and atheist nuts can't get away with fabrications.

This is not the case. You should be well aware that both extremists have provided pleanty of "proof" of their claims.

Well, that's a non-answer, my friend. The internet provides the means to unmask frauds, opportunists, predators, etc.

 

[PredFan]

It's not just the internet. The information age has eclipsed the education system. Kids don't have to read books and take notes in order to put a report together. All they need to do is tippy tap on their personal information machine and copy stuff that tends to make the teacher happy. The education system teaches kids to come up with information but it doesn't teach them how to think. Politicians and the advertising agencies as well as Hollywood are well aware of the lack of thought process in the general public and they sell us junk and policies (and people) we don't need because we have become overwhelmed with information but too stupid to think.

And there is that as well.

 

[PredFan]

An Assange or a Snowden demonstrates the powerful impact of the internet.

Freedom of information and its access enhances the freedom of mankind from government and institutional straitjackets.

One example: the far lefties and the far righties and religious and atheist nuts can't get away with fabrications.

This is not the case. You should be well aware that both extremists have provided pleanty of "proof" of their claims.

Well, that's a non-answer, my friend. The internet provides the means to unmask frauds, opportunists, predators, etc.

Not really, as I said.

Say I believe in Theory X, and Someone Who Is Obviously Wrong says that Theory X is crap. I provide links to people in authority (scientists or PHDs whatever) that say Theory X is the God's Honest Truth and SWIOW provides links that say that Theory X is as worthless as tits on a boar. Neither side budges and both sides claim that the other side's authorities are not "Real Authorities" and nothing gets accomplished.

I have seen Creationists provide data from actual scientists who claim that dinosaurs and man were contemporaneous. I have seen truthers provide data from Engineers who claim that the towers could not have fallen in the fashion they did from the impact of the planes alone. I have seen UFO searchers who were scientists, psychic surgeons who were doctors, and only a few decades agao I saw scintists and doctors who claimed that cigarette smoking was harmless. One can find in this day and age, information that will support almost any position that you want to take.

My point is that the promise of the internet and access to information didn't turn out to be the blessing most of us thought it was way back when.

 

[Michelle420]

Social Facts are for the most part just opinions.

Politics, social justice and the broadcast news of course all have slants.

People can research and provide what they consider facts as evidence for an argument but evidence can be slanted that's what lawyers do in court.

Social constructions of reality need to place a meaning or create an identity to something in organized society so we can get social acceptance and negotiate a set reality that the majority will agree on.

Agreed for the most part.

That said I think the internet is a great arena for those discussions.

Is it a great arena when the discussion leads to nothing?

For example:

If I agree with Theory X, and you disagree. I provide links to people in authority who agree with Theory X, and you respond with people in authority who disagree with Theory X. Then the discussion devolves into a debate on the merits of the "People in authorty" on either side and everything ends in a stalemate. This happens the vast majority of the time. What is accomplished?

Still, since ideology is man-made, it allows a forum to dispel ideals that have been taken for granted as the only way to think about an issue.

People in authority are still just people.

There are those who favor the social control theory as a way to keep things in order in society, but the net has definitely brought out society's deviant side opposed to it and so we witness social conflict first hand.

Prior to the internet people may have lived in a bubble in their ideals not realizing how broad, vast or different other groups of people think.

 

[PredFan]

Social Facts are for the most part just opinions.

Politics, social justice and the broadcast news of course all have slants.

People can research and provide what they consider facts as evidence for an argument but evidence can be slanted that's what lawyers do in court.

Social constructions of reality need to place a meaning or create an identity to something in organized society so we can get social acceptance and negotiate a set reality that the majority will agree on.

Agreed for the most part.

That said I think the internet is a great arena for those discussions.

Is it a great arena when the discussion leads to nothing?

For example:

If I agree with Theory X, and you disagree. I provide links to people in authority who agree with Theory X, and you respond with people in authority who disagree with Theory X. Then the discussion devolves into a debate on the merits of the "People in authorty" on either side and everything ends in a stalemate. This happens the vast majority of the time. What is accomplished?

Still, since ideology is man-made, it allows a forum to dispel ideals that have been taken for granted as the only way to think about an issue.

Does it? Can you name one old ideal that has been dispelled? Look at creationism vs evolution, or the abortion debate. I have been involved in those discussions since the beginning of the internet and I've never seen wither side give an inch. The best one can say is "It is settled in MY mind."

People in authority are still just people.

Quite true. And now those people can put their opinions, right or wrong, out on the internet for anyone to access.

There are those who favor the social control theory as a way to keep things in order in society, but the net has definitely brought out society's deviant side opposed to it and so we witness social conflict first hand.

Sure.

Prior to the internet people may have lived in a bubble in their ideals not realizing how broad, vast or different other groups of people think.

Absolutely true. this was what most of us got excited about in the early days of the internet. My point is the question of has it really turned out that way? I'm not so sure.

 

[Michelle420]

One Ideal that has been dispelled is that broadcast news is always telling us the truth

 

[PredFan]

I'm not suggesting that the internet be regulated, btw. I like the fact that it's free despite the drawbacks.

 

[PredFan]

One Ideal that has been dispelled is that broadcast news is always telling us the truth

Many of us knew that before the internet, but I agree that it's more widespread now. But that kind of argument is also an example of what is wrong with the internet. You have on group that believes that Fox News is a bunch of liars, and another group that believes that the Mainstream Media are a bunch of liars, and yet another group that believes that they are all liars. While we can agree that some portion of the new is false or at least biased, we cannot agree which is which. In my mind that isn't the progree that we hoped for in the early days.

 

[JakeStarkey]

OK, predfan, I am with you now.

Yes, all of the information in the world does not lead to critical thinking.

The educated fans of Fox and MSNBC demonstrate that on the Board daily.

Far too many put ideology and propaganda before constructive investigation, and the internet facilitates both propaganda and constructive investigation.

 

[Michelle420]

One Ideal that has been dispelled is that broadcast news is always telling us the truth

Many of us knew that before the internet, but I agree that it's more widespread now. But that kind of argument is also an example of what is wrong with the internet. You have on group that believes that Fox News is a bunch of liars, and another group that believes that the Mainstream Media are a bunch of liars, and yet another group that believes that they are all liars. While we can agree that some portion of the new is false or at least biased, we cannot agree which is which. In my mind that isn't the progress that we hoped for in the early days.

I didn't realize how much the news lies to us before the internet, also there has been other topics that I didn't know about until the net.

As far as traditional arguments religious, abortion, some political arguments that have always been in fashion the net didn't change it.

I think it's helped improve being allowed to talk about topics that before only those in power could talk about.

But I don't think it's changed many peoples minds if they already had their mind made up.

I don't have much of a social life offline, so when I find myself in groups at school it's awkward for me to debate the same issues I would online, in a setting offline.

Just today at school I was in a group where only me and one other student opposed a solution that the majority group wanted to use for our project answer.

I gave my reasons and felt censored to shut up. If it had been the same discussion online I would have felt more confident to continue explaining my reasoning and had access to examples of what I was trying to communicate.

 

[PredFan]

One Ideal that has been dispelled is that broadcast news is always telling us the truth

Many of us knew that before the internet, but I agree that it's more widespread now. But that kind of argument is also an example of what is wrong with the internet. You have on group that believes that Fox News is a bunch of liars, and another group that believes that the Mainstream Media are a bunch of liars, and yet another group that believes that they are all liars. While we can agree that some portion of the new is false or at least biased, we cannot agree which is which. In my mind that isn't the progress that we hoped for in the early days.

I didn't realize how much the news lies to us before the internet, also there has been other topics that I didn't know about until the net.

As far as traditional arguments religious, abortion, some political arguments that have always been in fashion the net didn't change it.

I think it's helped improve being allowed to talk about topics that before only those in power could talk about.

But I don't think it's changed many peoples minds if they already had their mind made up.

I don't have much of a social life offline, so when I find myself in groups at school it's awkward for me to debate the same issues I would online, in a setting offline.

Just today at school I was in a group where only me and one other student opposed a solution that the majority group wanted to use for our project answer.

I gave my reasons and felt censored to shut up. If it had been the same discussion online I would have felt more confident to continue explaining my reasoning and had access to examples of what I was trying to communicate.

I'm not suggesting that the internet does no good at all.