The rediculousness of assumption that founders were not Christian

[rtwngAvngr]

good point. dillo. We are not guaranteed a right to live in an environment free of all religious expression. there's a difference between religious expression and religious coercion.

hey ajwps, how's that government protected false scarcity you docs have going ? I think my mechanic could do a better job than half you overpriced fancy boys.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Do you think a nativity scene in a public area is something we shouldn't do?

Yes as much as a menorah (Jewish candelabra), or a large Budda, or a picture of Krishna or a monkey god would be in a tax payer public area.

What is wrong with a crèche scene in your own yard or on your church's yard or even in your own home?

Why does any one religion's symbols have to be placed on the public taxpayers property? It seems that the righteous necessity to place a religious icon in a public area is really admitting that one is not self assurred of one's own faith and must push it in front of other's to somehow prove that the icon's public display proves their only truth.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
good point. dillo. We are not guaranteed a right to live in an environment free of all religious expression. there's a difference between religious expression and religious coercion.

hey ajwps, how's that government protected false scarcity you docs have going ? I think my mechanic could do a better job than half you overpriced fancy boys.

Avenger you don't even know when you've been taken. Dillo was talking about praying to a wooden (cross) icon of a god. Also a god fashioned out of stone representing a god, his mom and his saints.

As for the dig about doctors, I would rather be a mechanic and get paid for what I do to allow others to get to work and to family instead of having to pay out of my pocket because most people and all insurance companies don't even pay the cost of providing top of the line healthcare to you and your buddies.

May you some day find that you can do without 'overpriced' doctors when you find you have cancer or heart disease. Maybe you can pray yourself to health or have someone dance around you with bones, feathers, beads and songs. Maybe Jimmy Swaggart or Tammy and Jim Baker can heal you for cash.

 

[5stringJeff]

aj, first, while I didn't extend an invitation to you to post in this thread, of course you are welcome to post wherever. NG's statement in the other thread was only meant to point out that we had a couple of issues to hash out.
Second, dillo did not bring up the cross as an idol, yet you insist on brining it up, to your own abasement. What makes you think the Christians worship the cross? Christians recognize that the cross is where Jesus' blood was shed and that blood is very important to us - it is the blood of Jesus that God accepted as the atoning sacrifice for our sins, which the blood of animals was not able to do. But while we recognize the importance of the cross, we do not worship it - just as Jews do not worship the Wailing Wall, but they recognize its importance.

 

[Hobbit]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
hey ajwps, how's that government protected false scarcity you docs have going ? I think my mechanic could do a better job than half you overpriced fancy boys.

Do you have any idea how expensive medical care is, even at cost? First off, most doctors below the age of 50 are still paying off student loans from medical school. Saline costs dozens of dollars a bag. Drugs can cost hundreds of dollars. Even sterilizing the instruments used requires a machine called an "autoclave," which costs thousands of dollars for a crappy one. Keeping an OR (Operating Room) sterile costs thousands of dollars in chemicals and specially designed facilities, not to mention disposable surgery garb. Suitures have to be made out of a special material in order to withstand the strain of normal body movement without risking cutting the stitched organ. Some even dissolve over time. There's gauze, IVs, anesthesia, sanitizing linens, oxygen masks, and dozens of other machines involved. It's quite a bit of state-of-the-art stuff.

As for the doctors themselves, I respect them. They all work on something more complicated than any car mechanic could imagine. Blood type, circulation, digestion, energy processing, waste expulsion, all these things are complicated biological processes. When combined all together, it's more than I want to try to understand. Yet doctors perform...maintenece...on Earth's most complicated machines. Not only that, but there's no room forever. I bet you've had to take you car back to the mechanic a time or two for an honest mistake. In medicine, an 'honest mistake' is quite likely to cause great physical pain or even death. Even a very successful doctor can end up on the streets with no liscence due to a mistake that isn't even his fault, just because some guy with a sick wife/kid/parent wants a scapegoat. That's another cost of healthcare...malpractice insurance. How would you feel about your job if a single mistake could cost you millions, while insurance against it costs tens to hundreds of thousands. Think about that next time you start ragging on overpriced doctors. They've saved my life, my sister's athletic career, and my Dad's life.

 

[acludem]

A Supreme Court decision from 1892 is irrelevant. Just because a majority of the justices may have believed that this was a Christian nation doesn't make it so. Let's keep in mind that in 1857, a majority of the justices concurred with Chief Justice Roger B. Taney that "the black man has no rights the white man is bound to respect", clearly (other than Big D and his ilk) we've moved past that.

I agree it is spelled out in the Constitution in two ways: The first amendment and in the lack of any other mention of religion in the document other than in the date.

Also, stop referring to the ACLU as "commies". The ACLU is not a economic organization, so they can't be "commies".

acludem

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by ajwps
Avenger you don't even know when you've been taken. Dillo was talking about praying to a wooden (cross) icon of a god. Also a god fashioned out of stone representing a god, his mom and his saints.

As for the dig about doctors, I would rather be a mechanic and get paid for what I do to allow others to get to work and to family instead of having to pay out of my pocket because most people and all insurance companies don't even pay the cost of providing top of the line healthcare to you and your buddies.

May you some day find that you can do without 'overpriced' doctors when you find you have cancer or heart disease. Maybe you can pray yourself to health or have someone dance around you with bones, feathers, beads and songs. Maybe Jimmy Swaggart or Tammy and Jim Baker can heal you for cash.

I haven't been taken. I know dillo is no idolator; I wouldn care if he was.

On the doctor thing, I'm just saying, professions which rely on government to keep other practitioners out and create false scarcity, are making a deal with the devil. What are the insurance premiums like in your state and field? How about a little game of doctors vs. lawyers?

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
I haven't been taken. I know dillo is no idolator; I wouldn care if he was.

I don't think Dill is an idolator but simply talking about wood and stone gods. You simply interpreted it as a confirmation of your beliefs.

On the doctor thing, I'm just saying, professions which rely on government to keep other practitioners out and create false scarcity, are making a deal with the devil. What are the insurance premiums like in your state and field? How about a little game of doctors vs. lawyers?

To what government created scarcity of practitioner doctors are you referring? The over abundant doctors in the USA are now being told how to practice medicine, who may receive care and how much they get by insurance companies. Try getting surgery for cancer or heart disease or even a gall bladder disease without jumping through hoops. You have to get an inusrance nurse to give a precertification letter and number before you can get a necessary procedure or treatment.

Reimbursement to hospitals and doctors and pharmacies are determined by contracts signed with individual insurance companies. If one of these entities attempts to practice without signing isurance company contracts to abide by the insurance company rules and prices, the hospital, pharmarcy or doctor's names are not in their insurance book and no one willl go to a hospital or doctor not in their insurance book list.

If you are in the grocery business or plumbing business and the govenment passed laws that profit making entities could require that these businesses take less than their costs of providing parts or services, how long would any business remain with no abillity to make enough to pay your rent or pay your help?

How long would attorneys stay in business if they were forced to charge less than their expenses instead of making tens of million dollars awards for one big lawsuit?

In ten years, if you and your children are still alive, this activity will determine who gets health care and who gets none and dies.

When Bill Clinton fell and broke his leg, did he need to call a precert nurse to get permission for treatment? No, he went to Walter Reed Hospital for the best care in the states, he didn't need to show his insurance card and he didn't pay for anything. YOU DID.....

An example is the foreign people of the world with money who come to the United States to pay for health care while they get it for free in their own countries socialized system. Does that make any sense to you?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by ajwps
I don't think Dill is an idolator but simply talking about wood and stone gods. You simply interpreted it as a confirmation of your beliefs.

You evidently missed his point entirely. It's this : must everything in the public square be inoffensive to everybody? That's the point. If I worship wood and find it's use as construction material offensive, do i have the right to demand all buildings be rebuilt with a different material? You missed it.

On the doctor thing, I'm just saying, professions which rely on government to keep other practitioners out and create false scarcity, are making a deal with the devil. What are the insurance premiums like in your state and field? How about a little game of doctors vs. lawyers?

To what government created scarcity of practitioner doctors are you referring?

THe one that exists. Government creates the scarcity of doctors by forcing them to go to lots of extra school. And the elite docors of old were happy to have competition from those unable to afford education squashed. Most doctors specialize and end using only small portions of all the classes they took. What do you think of the the new p.a. degree? And what is it's purpose? Why was it developed?

The over abundant doctors in the USA are now being told how to practice medicine, who may receive care and how much they get by insurance companies.

That's what happeneds when you demand such exorbitant fees that third party insurance companies must be involved. You should have worked with the people, instead of forcing them to mortgage their homes.

Try getting surgery for cancer or heart disease or even a gall bladder disease without jumping through hoops. You have to get an inusrance nurse to give a precertification letter and number before you can get a necessary procedure or treatment.

Reimbursement to hospitals and doctors and pharmacies are determined by contracts signed with individual insurance companies. If one of these entities attempts to practice without signing isurance company contracts to abide by the insurance company rules and prices, the hospital, pharmarcy or doctor's names are not in their insurance book and no one willl go to a hospital or doctor not in their insurance book list.

If you are in the grocery business or plumbing business and the govenment passed laws that profit making entities could require that these businesses take less than their costs of providing parts or services, how long would any business remain with no abillity to make enough to pay your rent or pay your help?

How long would attorneys stay in business if they were forced to charge less than their expenses instead of making tens of million dollars awards for one big lawsuit?

In ten years, if you and your children are still alive, this activity will determine who gets health care and who gets none and dies.

When Bill Clinton fell and broke his leg, did he need to call a precert nurse to get permission for treatment? No, he went to Walter Reed Hospital for the best care in the states, he didn't need to show his insurance card and he didn't pay for anything. YOU DID.....

An example is the foreign people of the world with money who come to the United States to pay for health care while they get it for free in their own countries socialized system. Does that make any sense to you?

Like I said. You should've worked with the people, or learned more about business.

Socialism destroys product quality and service in every sector, it's not suprising the elites come here.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Hey dr. AJ. Could you please use the standard quoting mechanism from now on ? DO we need to explain it to you?

 

[dilloduck]

I knew you would understand my analogy RW. Wierd how the "WOOD GOD" was suspected to be a cross. People are just plain lying when they claim they are offended by religious symbols and the federal money spent on religion is a red herring. The ACLU is using religious symbols to attack Christianity. Just look at what religious symbols they complain about and which religious symbols they PROTECT!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by dilloduck
I knew you would understand my analogy RW. Wierd how the "WOOD GOD" was suspected to be a cross. People are just plain lying when they claim they are offended by religious symbols and the federal money spent on religion is a red herring. The ACLU is using religious symbols to attack Christianity. Just look at what religious symbols they complain about and which religious symbols they PROTECT!

You and I are on the same plane of existence, dillo.

I know, it's so shamelessy anti christian.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Hey ajwps. What if the government has to spend 0$ for the display, and it's all paid for by private organizations, but just displayed on public property.

And to kick it up a notch(bam), what if they LEASE the 3 ft of property to the organization. It could be a government controlled profit center, wouldn't that be groovy?

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr

You evidently missed his point entirely. It's this : must everything in the public square be inoffensive to everybody? That's the point. If I worship wood and find it's use as construction material offensive, do i have the right to demand all buildings be rebuilt with a different material? You missed it.

Actually Dill may have meant your interpretation but in reality wooden idol gods are as offensive in public places as stone idol gods of Buddha are when they are also considered a transgression against G-d to walk or drive by a foreign idol god by others. No building need be rebuilt with other materials as you may consider things like wood to be made into furniture, use to cook your food, burned to warm your body, build your buildings and then to form into an icon symbol to worship. It is offensive to those who do not worship objects.

THe one that exists. Government creates the scarcity of doctors by forcing them to go to lots of extra school. And the elite docors of old were happy to have competition from those unable to afford education squashed. Most doctors specialize and end using only small portions of all the classes they took. What do you think of the the new p.a. degree? And what is it's purpose? Why was it developed?

So you want to be treated by poorly trained or substandard cheap healthcare doctors who are only trained to treat one part of you instead of understanding all that effects your physiology, anatomy and pathological combinations which allows for a differential diagnosis? What makes you think that doctors use only smalll portions of the classes they took? If you come to your doctor with a pain in your foot, your idea of doctor might miss that you have kidney disease (gouty arthritis), diabetes, heart disease or a tumor that has now metastisized to your foot. The physician assitant degree allows the doctor to concentrate on complex pathological disease while the P.A. takes a verbal history, blood pressure, heart rate, height, weight and put Iodine on scrapes.

Would you want a PA to remove your gallbladder or write you an rx for a functional adenoma of the adrenal medulla (Pheochromacytoma)? Why not just go to a PA with a massive heart attack. It is of course cheaper for the insurance company.

That's what happeneds when you demand such exorbitant fees that third party insurance companies must be involved. You should have worked with the people, instead of forcing them to mortgage their homes.

Fortunately for you, insurance companies set the fees that all contracted doctors MUST ACCEPT or be removed from the insurance company list of accepted doctors. For those without insurance, the person can always go to the local county hospitals were they may have to wait for some time before being seen by a doctor but at least it is free.

There was a time that physicians were allowed to make their own charges for the diagnosis and treatment of disease but that function has been taken over by the insurance industry entity.

Check out the income of the CEOs of the major health insurance companies. You will find that they earn about 20 million dollars a year plus around another 400 million in bonuses as they rip off the insured and those who provide care.

Young physicians fresh out of residencies must go to work for older established groups because the insurance companies do not need to add them to their approved lists of specialist doctors. No one would come to see them if they were solo practicitioners but in groups, they can work for a small salary and file under the older group's already being on insurance company lists.

More and more established physicians are quitting or retiring early because they were not trained to treat disease and people with instructions from a GED graduate insurance clerk who can approve or disaprove treatment necessary to maintain human life.

Like I said. You should've worked with the people, or learned more about business. Socialism destroys product quality and service in every sector, it's not suprising the elites come here.

In my days of full time practice I have treated people's diseases and not just their complaints. After this experience in practice I know the business aspect which is now controlled by forces outside of our control and which has been made into law by paid off government representatives.

So by all means get insured by a cheap HMO (Health Maintenance Organization Insurance Company.) The US Supreme Court, just lask week, upheld the employer ERISA laws (originally meant to protect employers from devasting employee health care costs) to now prevent HMOs from being sued by the forcing of doctors to deny or delay expensive doctor requestd care which ultimately results in death of the patient. The insurance company would rather have a dead expensive patient than a healthy live premium paying insured.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by dilloduck
I knew you would understand my analogy RW. Wierd how the "WOOD GOD" was suspected to be a cross. People are just plain lying when they claim they are offended by religious symbols and the federal money spent on religion is a red herring. The ACLU is using religious symbols to attack Christianity. Just look at what religious symbols they complain about and which religious symbols they PROTECT!

Yeh which religious idol symbols does the ACLU protect on public property?

How often do you see the 'monkey god' of Vishnu on the Capital Building Steps?

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
You and I are on the same plane of existence, dillo.

I know, it's so shamelessy anti christian.

Which plane of existence do you both exist on? How metaphysical of you.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr

Hey ajwps. What if the government has to spend 0$ for the display, and it's all paid for by private organizations, but just displayed on public property.

What if ALL the people of the United States who must pay exorbitant Federal taxes which are used to buy public property used to display offensive idols which are a transgression to people who do not have idol worship in their beliefs.

And to kick it up a notch(bam), what if they LEASE the 3 ft of property to the organization. It could be a government controlled profit center, wouldn't that be groovy?

(wham) What if THEY LEASE 3 ft of property to the religious organization and pay as a US public property transfer use but not one cent to those who do not want to even bend down to tie a shoelace in front of an idol or wooden god manger scenes

What a rediculous argument to avoid every American citizen's rights to avoid sinful icons on public property purchased for public use and not to be rented out to monkey god believers.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Hey dr. AJ. Could you please use the standard quoting mechanism from now on ? DO we need to explain it to you?

Hey I have tried to use quotes and links as required by Jimmyc. Be so kind as to point out where I might have missed a link or quote. Thank you for your thoughtfully bringing this error to my attention.....

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Ajwps. You didn't understand what dillo was saying. I did. He's confirmed it. And you act like there's still doubt. Just accept it. You were wrong.

I know insurance companies have too much control. Insurance has gotten too expensive due to excessive litigation, and a class of liberal government supported lawyers who fight tort reform at every turn.

are you for tort reform and caps on damages for medical malpractice?

and as far as the public display of religious stuff. It should be no problem, if it costs the taxpayers nothing. Please show damages that result from exposure to a nativity scene.

and about the quote stuff. Using bold to indicate quotations is not standard and annoying. but I know how doctors can never get off their pillar of specialness. I mean really, who are we to ask you to quote in a more legible fashion?

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr

Ajwps. You didn't understand what dillo was saying. I did. He's confirmed it. And you act like there's still doubt. Just accept it. You were wrong.

Actually you are right that you both of you are WRONG... Live with it....

I know insurance companies have too much control. Insurance has gotten too expensive due to excessive litigation, and a class of liberal government supported lawyers who fight tort reform at every turn.

Actually litigation is not a reason that medical costs are out of control or expensive. Health insurance companies do not care about the cost of malpractice insurance and the costs to hospitals and providers. The health insurance industry together colludes on deciding what treatments are allowed and how much are paid for them. Their motivation is profits for the CEOs and for the insurance company stockholders. Providing health care is of little or no concern to them. If an insurance company allows $50.00 for a doctor visit, the cost of that visit must include federal income tax, rent, electricity, water, employee salaries and a myriad of costs of materials and supplies. The net cost to the doctor can be closer to $75.00 for your visit but the insurance company does not allow the doctor to charge one more penny than the insurance cost adjuster wants to pay for that visit. Where does the extra $25.00 come from? It is out of the doctor's pocket so that you can have that health care visit. Why do you think so many doctors are getting out of this trap?

are you for tort reform and caps on damages for medical malpractice?

I'm for no reform or cap on REAL damages for medical negligence (not malpracitice) as insurance coverage protecting doctors does not stop incompetent doctors from continuing on their merry way. It is simply a profit machine for attorneys who get the lion share of any millions of dollar rewards and the injured ends up with much less than the insurance company payment.

When doctor medical societies takes licenses away from incompetent physicians, these doctors simply hire expensive lawyers who go to court and get them their license back.

and as far as the public display of religious stuff. It should be no problem, if it costs the taxpayers nothing. Please show damages that result from exposure to a nativity scene.

You are totally missing the point. It is not the cost to the public but to those public citizens who pay the bills for others who want to display their religious symbols on property paid for by all people. Not just Christians.

and about the quote stuff. Using bold to indicate quotations is not standard and annoying. but I know how doctors can never get off their pillar of specialness. I mean really, who are we to ask you to quote in a more legible fashion?

Sorry that bold print is irritating to you which indicates what the original poster says to differentiate their statement from the reply. So I have italicized the posters statements instead of making them in bold. Is this a violation of Jimmyc's rules?