The Right To Bear Arms

[bigrebnc1775]

No I don't give a fuck about other countries.

You don't seem to be able to comprehend much, so I don't doubt that you don't understand that this doesn't have anything to do with other countries, it has to do with the theory of HUMAN RIGHTS.

Jeez, you're difficult. Stop efing around with stuff that doesn't matter and stick to the damn topic will you?

Fuck you , you god damn mother fucking son of a bitch.
Have you ever been outside the U.S.? I have.

Well done, you've managed to get to your lowest point so far.

By the way, seeing as we're completely off topic, I've lived in China, the UK, Spain, Germany and Austria, I've been to 51 different foreign countries, not including airports I've flown through but not entered the country this year. I've been to 7 African countries and 3 Asian countries this year alone. I've spent quite a bit of my life abroad, thank you.

I've lived in Europe, You've been mentally corrupted and have no valuable use to provide in this discussion.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Stop fucking adding it.
There is no age or sex requirement for the unorganized militia. Nor is the unorganized militia part of the god damn national guard.
Dumb ass what is the militia?

I didn't say the unorganised militia is part of the National Guard. Jeez this is hard.

I also didn't say there was an age or sex requirement for the unorganised militia. You don't seem to get this.

The militia was introduced in the Constitution in article 1 section 8.

"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"

These are powers of congress. They have the power to organise, arm and discipline the Milita.

In doing so they have passed various militia acts, starting with the militia act of 1792 which defined who was in the militia.

"That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia,"

So in 1792 they declared who was in the militia.

Up to now this has remained the same, the US Congress has decided who is in the militia. This isn't necessarily a limit on who is in the militia. It's them saying these people are in the militia.

Women could be in the militia if they wanted to be, but they have to opt in, men are automatically opted in, this is the difference. How many women do you think have opted in to the unorganised militia since the Dick Act came in 100 years ago? I'm going to say about zero.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Wouldn't defense against the government also be in self defense?

No, that would be "common defence" or "defence of the State"

North Carolina’s constitution of December 18, 1776

"XVII. That the people have a right to bear arms, for the defence of the State; "

Massachusetts declaration of rights of 1780

"XVII.--The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defence."

 

[frigidweirdo]

I've lived in Europe, You've been mentally corrupted and have no valuable use to provide in this discussion.

Serious dude, you have no idea about this topic, and when someone tries to educate you and you feel inferior or something you come out with the crap. Get over it, you're fumbling around making a fool of yourself, you're even fighting against that which cannot be fought against, you'll ignore the debate at hand to try and score points on something you feel you can win on, because it's off topic, and even then you lose.

You've lived in Europe, oh, big deal. Let me guess, Germany, on a US military base, probably near Osnabruck or somewhere like that, perhaps near Bamberg, and you think living on a US military base some how puts you above other people. Don't give me that.

This is a DEBATE, it's about making a decent argument, it's about learning stuff, moving forward. You're not learning anything, you're just getting idiotically angry and swearing a lot of the time. It doesn't make you more intelligent, it doesn't "win" an argument either.

So either you stick to the program and act like a civilised human being or I'm not bothering with you, because I didn't come on here to get down to that level.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Stop fucking adding it.
There is no age or sex requirement for the unorganized militia. Nor is the unorganized militia part of the god damn national guard.
Dumb ass what is the militia?

I didn't say the unorganised militia is part of the National Guard. Jeez this is hard.

I also didn't say there was an age or sex requirement for the unorganised militia. You don't seem to get this.

The militia was introduced in the Constitution in article 1 section 8.

"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"

These are powers of congress. They have the power to organise, arm and discipline the Milita.

In doing so they have passed various militia acts, starting with the militia act of 1792 which defined who was in the militia.

"That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia,"

So in 1792 they declared who was in the militia.

Up to now this has remained the same, the US Congress has decided who is in the militia. This isn't necessarily a limit on who is in the militia. It's them saying these people are in the militia.

Women could be in the militia if they wanted to be, but they have to opt in, men are automatically opted in, this is the difference. How many women do you think have opted in to the unorganised militia since the Dick Act came in 100 years ago? I'm going to say about zero.

what the militia act really did was establish the authority of drafting at the fed level

 

[frigidweirdo]

what the militia act really did was establish the authority of drafting at the fed level

What is the point of what you have said?

Seriously? Are you making an argument here, making a passing comment while sipping a cup of tea? Is there any point at all?

 

[Iceweasel]

In fact the whole document shows that the 2A is about protecting the militia by protecting individuals rights to own weapons and to be in the militia.

No where does it talk about self defence. No where does it talk about carrying arms. NOWHERE>

What are you trying to accomplish exactly? You are trying to overturn the Supreme Court? Anyway, the 2nd uses the term 'people', that isn't how military personnel are referred to. Why mention people keeping and bearing arms if the reference was military? That makes no sense, military are armed. You're just masturbating.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I've lived in Europe, You've been mentally corrupted and have no valuable use to provide in this discussion.

Serious dude, you have no idea about this topic, and when someone tries to educate you and you feel inferior or something you come out with the crap. Get over it, you're fumbling around making a fool of yourself, you're even fighting against that which cannot be fought against, you'll ignore the debate at hand to try and score points on something you feel you can win on, because it's off topic, and even then you lose.

You've lived in Europe, oh, big deal. Let me guess, Germany, on a US military base, probably near Osnabruck or somewhere like that, perhaps near Bamberg, and you think living on a US military base some how puts you above other people. Don't give me that.

This is a DEBATE, it's about making a decent argument, it's about learning stuff, moving forward. You're not learning anything, you're just getting idiotically angry and swearing a lot of the time. It doesn't make you more intelligent, it doesn't "win" an argument either.

So either you stick to the program and act like a civilised human being or I'm not bothering with you, because I didn't come on here to get down to that level.

On the militia? Dude you are about at the level of a second grader on the subject compared to me. Here's you're problem trying to debate, you don't add to the context Like you have done. Here's what you need to argue against without adding to what is defined as the unorganized militia. "The unorganized militia is not connected with the national guard"

Wouldn't defense against the government also be in self defense?

Defending against the government is also in self defense stop adding to the context.
No, that would be "common defence" or "defence of the State"

North Carolina’s constitution of December 18, 1776

"XVII. That the people have a right to bear arms, for the defence of the State; "

Massachusetts declaration of rights of 1780

"XVII.--The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defence."

 

[frigidweirdo]

What are you trying to accomplish exactly? You are trying to overturn the Supreme Court? Anyway, the 2nd uses the term 'people', that isn't how military personnel are referred to. Why mention people keeping and bearing arms if the reference was military? That makes no sense, military are armed. You're just masturbating.

Okay, you remember I said about reading what I wrote, I never said that the militia was the military. The militia is a citizen army. Got that, I said, the militia is citizens. So no, I did not say keeping and bearing arms was a reference to the military.

The right to keep arms is the right of individuals to own weapons so the militia has a ready supply of weapons.
The right to bear arms is the right of individuals to be in the militia, so the militia has a ready supply of personnel.

The latter part is clear, as the founding fathers used "bear arms" synonymously with "render military service" and "militia duty".

 

[frigidweirdo]

On the militia? Dude you are about at the level of a second grader on the subject compared to me. Here's you're problem trying to debate, you don't add to the context Like you have done. Here's what you need to argue against without adding to what is defined as the unorganized militia. "The unorganized militia is not connected with the national guard"

What's your point? You feel an insult plus making a comment that has nothing to do with what I've ever said is going to get you where?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

On the militia? Dude you are about at the level of a second grader on the subject compared to me. Here's you're problem trying to debate, you don't add to the context Like you have done. Here's what you need to argue against without adding to what is defined as the unorganized militia. "The unorganized militia is not connected with the national guard"

What's your point? You feel an insult plus making a comment that has nothing to do with what I've ever said is going to get you where?

Insults are due because you start to twist things into place to fit your god damn position Stop it.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Insults are due because you start to twist things into place to fit your god damn position Stop it.

No, insults are due because you want to insult. Simple as that, you're an insulter. You can't twist this around, you want to insult.

I make my argument. If you want to argue against this, fine, if you want to insult, feck off.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Insults are due because you start to twist things into place to fit your god damn position Stop it.

No, insults are due because you want to insult. Simple as that, you're an insulter. You can't twist this around, you want to insult.

I make my argument. If you want to argue against this, fine, if you want to insult, feck off.

Yes insults are due when you twist words into something that isn't there it's dishonest.
Let's start over
The unorganized militia is not connected with the regular Military or the nation guard.

 

[Wildman]

I've lived in Europe, You've been mentally corrupted and have no valuable use to provide in this discussion.

Serious dude, you have no idea about this topic, and when someone tries to educate you and you feel inferior or something you come out with the crap. Get over it, you're fumbling around making a fool of yourself, you're even fighting against that which cannot be fought against, you'll ignore the debate at hand to try and score points on something you feel you can win on, because it's off topic, and even then you lose.

You've lived in Europe, oh, big deal. Let me guess, Germany, on a US military base, probably near Osnabruck or somewhere like that, perhaps near Bamberg, and you think living on a US military base some how puts you above other people. Don't give me that.

This is a DEBATE, it's about making a decent argument, it's about learning stuff, moving forward. You're not learning anything, you're just getting idiotically angry and swearing a lot of the time. It doesn't make you more intelligent, it doesn't "win" an argument either.

So either you stick to the program and act like a civilised human being or I'm not bothering with you, because I didn't come on here to get down to that level.

====================
no more RED X's...., so here is my reply

 

[Iceweasel]

The right to keep arms is the right of individuals to own weapons so the militia has a ready supply of weapons.
The right to bear arms is the right of individuals to be in the militia, so the militia has a ready supply of personnel.

The latter part is clear, as the founding fathers used "bear arms" synonymously with "render military service" and "militia duty".

Bullshit.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/gun-quotations-founding-fathersought to be armed."

"A free people ought to be armed."
- George Washington

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria)

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

"Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense."
- John Adams

"To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians."
- George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe."
- Noah Webster

"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster

"A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace."
- James Madison

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms."
- James Madison

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison

"The ultimate authority resides in the people alone."
- James Madison

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves ... and include all men capable of bearing arms."
- Richard Henry Lee

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker

"... arms ... discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property.... Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them."
- Thomas Paine

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts

" ... for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
- Alexander Hamilton

 

[frigidweirdo]

The right to keep arms is the right of individuals to own weapons so the militia has a ready supply of weapons.
The right to bear arms is the right of individuals to be in the militia, so the militia has a ready supply of personnel.

The latter part is clear, as the founding fathers used "bear arms" synonymously with "render military service" and "militia duty".

Bullshit.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/gun-quotations-founding-fathersought to be armed."

"A free people ought to be armed."
- George Washington

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson

"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery."
- Thomas Jefferson

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria)

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

"Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense."
- John Adams

"To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians."
- George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe."
- Noah Webster

"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster

"A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace."
- James Madison

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms."
- James Madison

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison

"The ultimate authority resides in the people alone."
- James Madison

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
- Richard Henry Lee

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves ... and include all men capable of bearing arms."
- Richard Henry Lee

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun."
- Patrick Henry

"This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty.... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."
- St. George Tucker

"... arms ... discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property.... Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived the use of them."
- Thomas Paine

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."
- Samuel Adams

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
- Joseph Story

"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts

" ... for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
- Alexander Hamilton

Oh good, some quotes not in context, with no argument from you. This is meaningless.

I'll discuss the first three.

1) Washington's quote. I'm not saying that the people shouldn't be armed. So...?
2) Franklin's quote, so what? I'm not talking about giving up liberty.
3) Jefferson's quote. So what? I'm not talking about barring people the use of arms.

I could go on and on. I don't see any of these quotes really giving you anything.

The thing is, you're finding quotes about arms, but none of this suggests that this is about the 2A. The 2A prevented the US govt from doing something. That doesn't mean that it prevents them from doing EVERYTHING connected to arms.
This is a big problem here.
Also, you have random quotes, and all I can say is, so what? It's all meaningless for me.

 

[Iceweasel]

The thing is, you're finding quotes about arms, but none of this suggests that this is about the 2A. The 2A prevented the US govt from doing something. That doesn't mean that it prevents them from doing EVERYTHING connected to arms.
This is a big problem here.
Also, you have random quotes, and all I can say is, so what? It's all meaningless for me.

It's meaningless to you because you're a fucking retard. The quotes prove they were concerned about the individuals right to bear arms, not just a militia. No one can understand it for you.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The thing is, you're finding quotes about arms, but none of this suggests that this is about the 2A. The 2A prevented the US govt from doing something. That doesn't mean that it prevents them from doing EVERYTHING connected to arms.
This is a big problem here.
Also, you have random quotes, and all I can say is, so what? It's all meaningless for me.

It's meaningless to you because you're a fucking retard. The quotes prove they were concerned about the individuals right to bear arms, not just a militia. No one can understand it for you.

He isn't intersted in an honest conversation. Cut your losses now.

 

[Iceweasel]

He isn't intersted in an honest conversation. Cut your losses now.

He's too stupid to talk to anyway.

 

[frigidweirdo]

It's meaningless to you because you're a fucking retard. The quotes prove they were concerned about the individuals right to bear arms, not just a militia. No one can understand it for you.

Ah, pull out the insults when you don't get your way huh? Well done, do you want a medal?

The quotes don't prove ANYTHING. Why? Because there's no context, there's no argument, there's just quotes.

I know there was concern over individual right to bear arms. My argument is that there is an individual right to bear arms. So what?

I'm not saying the right to bear arms is a militia right. I'm saying the right is for individuals to be in the militia. It's an individual right. I've said it 100 times and you keep telling me that I'm saying something different. I keep telling you to read what I write and you keep arguing against some ghost that appears to changing all my posts, or, maybe, just maybe, you're not reading what I write.

So, if you want your quotes to mean anything, present them as evidence for your argument, not just as quotes which on their own are meaningless.