danielpalos
Diamond Member
- Banned
- #3,601
Natural rights are recognized and secured in our State Constitutions. Protection of self and property, is a natural right.What it doesn't mean.
The right to bear arms is not the right to carry guns around with.
The right can also be infringed. These are the two most common mistakes people make.
The right to keep arms is the right to own guns. The right to bear arms is the right to be in the militia. The 2A prevents the US federal govt (and now state govts) from preventing you from being able to own arms, this does not mean they can't ban certain weapons, just that you have to be able to get guns, and the they can't prevent you from being in the militia, hence why the made the Dick Act and stuck all males aged 17-45 in the "unorganized militia". Rather convenient.
the right to bear arms has nothing to do with a militia
the militia is secondary to the right to keep and bear arms
Well, you're wrong and I'm going to prove you're wrong.
Amendment II: House of Representatives, Amendments to the Constitution
This is a document from the debates in the House on the future Second Amendment.
Mr Gerry said: "Now, I am apprehensive, sir, that this clause would give an opportunity to the people in power to destroy the constitution itself. They can declare who are those religiously scrupulous, and prevent them from bearing arms."
This was about a clause of the future Second Amendment that read: "but no person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms."
Then Mr Gerry said: "Now, if we give a discretionary power to exclude those from militia duty who have religious scruples, we may as well make no provision on this head."
Yeah, the same person used "militia duty" and "bear arms" synonymously. Go figure.
Then "Mr. Jackson was willing to accommodate. He thought the expression was, "No one, religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service, in person, upon paying an equivalent.""
So, we have "render military service", "militia duty" and "bear arms" all meaning the same thing.
In fact in different versions of what would become the 2A, "bear arms" and "render military service" would replace each other.
June 8th 1789
"but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."
August 17th 1789
"but no person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms."
August 24th 1789
"but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."
August 25th 1789
"but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person."
So, it has a lot to do with the militia, actually.
But then, I'm willing to see what evidence you have, though, I do have a lot more to go on than just this, this is just a start...
the debate over the terms is not necessarily the meaning of the amendment. The fact is that those other terms you mention are not in the amendment itself. There is no qualification that bearing arms equals serving in the militia
compelling military service is conscription.
It seems you have the draft and the militia confused
The militia was the people and the people not just the government were empowered to protect the free state by being allowed to keep and bear arms
I'm not sure what your point is here.
The right to be in the militia is NOT forcing someone to be in the militia. They considered making a clause that would excuse people from militia duty, but they rejected it. I'm not confused at all.
The point being made was that "render military service" "militia duty" and "bear arms" were used synonymously by the Founding Fathers. If that is the case, then it is clear that they did not mean a right to walk around with guns, they meant something else. What?
Well it's clear.
The right to keep arms is the right to own weapons, so in the event of an emergency the militia has a ready supply of weaponry that isn't connected to the govt.
The right to bear arms is the right to be in the militia, so in the event of an emergency the militia has a ready supply of personnel not connected to the govt to use those weapons.
Okay, so, you say "The militia was the people and the people not just the government were empowered to protect the free state by being allowed to keep and bear arms"
How would individuals being able to walk around with guns help the free state? It doesn't. How does an individual having the right to be in the militia help the free state? Well, it helps massively, doesn't it? Having a militia which the govt cannot prevent because the individuals have a right to be in the militia..... well.... it's clear, or it's clear to me.
Also, if "bear arms" meant carry arms, why did Presser say "
We think it clear that the sections under consideration, which only forbid bodies of men to associate together as military organizations, or to drill or parade with arms in cities [116 U.S. 252, 265] and towns unless authorized by law, do not infringe the right of the people to keep and bear arms."
and why did Heller confirm this? The Supreme Court says "bear arms" is not carrying arms around.
You have not proven that the right to bear arms is the right to be in a militia.
one does not have to be in a militia to keep and bear arms. tell me what good does keeping a weapon do if you can only use it in service of a militia?
Our Second Article of Amendment declares that Only well regulated militia of the entire People, may not be Infringed when keeping and bearing Arms for their State or the Union; not natural rights.