Zone1 The true Church will be eclipsed, says Mary at LaSalette

[notmyfault2020]

I am sorry if you have been subjected to the worst prejudices. Those have not been my experience from either RCC or Protestants. Yes some believe they embrace the only true faith, but they are usually not unpleasant to the rest of us.

I love history, most especially Church history and the development of Christian thought for which I write and teach curriculum. The Roman Catholic Church of course is a huge part of that. Despite all the bad , for example the Crusades and the Inquisition that no moral person can justify with today's conscience and sense of justice, what became the RCC also preserved the faith during some of the darkest times for Christianity. The Protestant Church also has its indefensible history and some shining moments.

I have a huge family and circle of friends, some of whom are Catholic including my sister and brother-in-law as well as many friends who are RCC. The majority are various species of Protestant. I don't know a single Catholic or a single Protestant, however, who would define the other as 'the spawn of Satan or any other such negative characteristic, even among those who describe themselves as Atheist. I do run across people on message boards who love to denigrate the Church and Christians but those tend to use such language for everything in their sad narrow worlds.

Certainly the modern RCC scandals of priests sexually preying upon children etc. and the charlatans cheating and exploiting their parishioners in the Protestant Church--the worst may have been Jim Jones and the horrible tragedy at Jonestown, Guyana--all exist and/or existed and have become part of Church history. But they also represent a tiny minority among the whole and it would be wrong to say these represent what the Church is just as it is wrong to accuse a few bad actors in other aspects of society as being all that society was or is.

In my opinion, the world would be a much more dangerous, brutal, cruel place without the overall tempering affect of Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant.

well, I do appreciate your open mindedness and you, unlike many on the Board, actually study these matters (as do I).

I never could figure out why re-hashing the evil behavior of people who lived hundreds of years ago was a very edifying endeavor. It's really not, except that it is good to know some of the history. .. so we don't repeat it.

One thing both sides seem to forget is that the atrocities in the past, present and future are really not surprising since Jesus did tell us that FEW find the narrow way to Heaven. The reason I like studying Catholic history in particular is that the CC is the Church Christ founded (whether anyone disagrees or not, I know this is so). The reason I'm fascinated with all things Catholic is that.. well, there are a lot of reasons. I have found that Catholic stuff (as it were) has helped yours truly immensely and there is no comparable thing in the non-Catholic "churches".. things like the rosary, the Real Presence, the Holy Mass. I think it would be very selfish of me or anyone to hold all those good things to myself and never share them w/ others. I know I could do a better job of sharing, that is for sure. But again, it seems that Protestants (most) do not want to hear what I have to say. It disturbs me becvause I am sharing stuff that could really help them. For instance, the information I have gained about Vatican II and Lefebvre. That is important info that all should have bc if someone here has ever been interested in becoming Catholic, they need to know that there is the true Church and the francis "church" For many years, I didn't know a thing about the SSPX and how the NO at V2 stole the Church buildings out from under the true Catholics. Yes, some NO Catholics would say that's an exaggeration but I do not say it lightly. I am not exaggerating one bit. Both Catholics and Protestants hear the heretical things Francis says and ... well.. they know something is wrong, just not exactly WHAT. Well, I have found out WHAT.. and try to share but again, most people are not listening... I mean, you'd think people would be interested in "the Church Christ founded" even if they disagree about which Church that may be... Instead, a lot of people just keep on believing what they've always believed, never really learning anything new. I find that very disturbing. It is not healthy...

 

[Foxfyre]

well, I do appreciate your open mindedness and you, unlike many on the Board, actually study these matters (as do I).

I never could figure out why re-hashing the evil behavior of people who lived hundreds of years ago was a very edifying endeavor. It's really not, except that it is good to know some of the history. .. so we don't repeat it.

One thing both sides seem to forget is that the atrocities in the past, present and future are really not surprising since Jesus did tell us that FEW find the narrow way to Heaven. The reason I like studying Catholic history in particular is that the CC is the Church Christ founded (whether anyone disagrees or not, I know this is so). The reason I'm fascinated with all things Catholic is that.. well, there are a lot of reasons. I have found that Catholic stuff (as it were) has helped yours truly immensely and there is no comparable thing in the non-Catholic "churches".. things like the rosary, the Real Presence, the Holy Mass. I think it would be very selfish of me or anyone to hold all those good things to myself and never share them w/ others. I know I could do a better job of sharing, that is for sure. But again, it seems that Protestants (most) do not want to hear what I have to say. It disturbs me becvause I am sharing stuff that could really help them. For instance, the information I have gained about Vatican II and Lefebvre. That is important info that all should have bc if someone here has ever been interested in becoming Catholic, they need to know that there is the true Church and the francis "church" For many years, I didn't know a thing about the SSPX and how the NO at V2 stole the Church buildings out from under the true Catholics. Yes, some NO Catholics would say that's an exaggeration but I do not say it lightly. I am not exaggerating one bit. Both Catholics and Protestants hear the heretical things Francis says and ... well.. they know something is wrong, just not exactly WHAT. Well, I have found out WHAT.. and try to share but again, most people are not listening... I mean, you'd think people would be interested in "the Church Christ founded" even if they disagree about which Church that may be... Instead, a lot of people just keep on believing what they've always believed, never really learning anything new. I find that very disturbing. It is not healthy...

To know our history--ALL of our history both the good and the bad--is imperative to be fully educated and be equipped with more knowledge to not repeat the sins of the past. And when we know what worked for good then, we can often adapt that for the benefit of all now. Nobody lives a life that provides all the experience that history can provide.

When we do not know our history--honest history and not that edited for political or self serving purposes--we are seriously disadvantaged in our perspective, more vulnerable to dishonest propaganda, and have to keep doing trial and error which means we will be wrong more of the time.

 

[notmyfault2020]

To know our history--ALL of our history both the good and the bad--is imperative to be fully educated and be equipped with more knowledge to not repeat the sins of the past. And when we know what worked for good then, we can often adapt that for the benefit of all now. Nobody lives a life that provides all the experience that history can provide.

When we do not know our history--honest history and not that edited for political or self serving purposes--we are seriously disadvantaged in our perspective, more vulnerable to dishonest propaganda, and have to keep doing trial and error which means we will be wrong more of the time.

some people just want to know history so they can use it to beat the crud out of Catholics.. as though Catholics are the worst enemy known to mankind.

the exact opposite appears to be true. But then that's just my experience... a big nothing burger, I guess

 

[Foxfyre]

some people just want to know history so they can use it to beat the crud out of Catholics.. as though Catholics are the worst enemy known to mankind.

the exact opposite appears to be true. But then that's just my experience... a big nothing burger, I guess

My sister married a Roman Catholic and my parents, especially, my mother was not at all pleased about that.

And his mother was horrified that he would marry a Methodist.

(They solved the problem by first eloping and being married by a JP, then had a wedding in the Methodist Church to keep our parents happy--his parents were not told about that of course--and then a wedding in the Catholic church to keep his parents happy--my parents knew nothing of that. Problem solved.)

They did worship in the Roman Catholic Church for most of their married life. One of our favorite things on Christmas Eve was to attend midnight mass with them.

Prejudices exist, have always existed, will always exist. But having worked in and among the ecumenical community, including the RCC, I can assure you that there isn't much animosity or ill will out there, and they all tend to work together for the common good.

For instance when my Mom died, the service was held in a Methodist Church with standing room only. I am proud to say that the governor and three former NM governors attended her funeral. She was in NM state government for a very long time.

The Roman Catholic Church provided a meal for the mostly Protestant family after the church and graveside services.

Good will and blessings at their finest.

 

[notmyfault2020]

My sister married a Roman Catholic and my parents, especially, my mother was not at all pleased about that.

And his mother was horrified that he would marry a Methodist.

(They solved the problem by first eloping and being married by a JP, then had a wedding in the Methodist Church to keep our parents happy--his parents were not told about that of course--and then a wedding in the Catholic church to keep his parents happy--my parents knew nothing of that. Problem solved.)

They did worship in the Roman Catholic Church for most of their married life. One of our favorite things on Christmas Eve was to attend midnight mass with them.

Prejudices exist, have always existed, will always exist. But having worked in and among the ecumenical community, including the RCC, I can assure you that there isn't much animosity or ill will out there, and they all tend to work together for the common good.

For instance when my Mom died, the service was held in a Methodist Church with standing room only. I am proud to say that the governor and three former NM governors attended her funeral. She was in NM state government for a very long time.

The Roman Catholic Church provided a meal for the mostly Protestant family after the church and graveside services.

Good will and blessings at their finest.

well, maybe the folks here at the forum need to take note of your story.

They frankly reflect the views and animosity I have seen in my personal experiences. I have been to non-Catholic "churches" before (there is only ONE Church) and it never fails.. Things are good, people are friendly toward me UNTIL I tell them I am Catholic. If I wnet on some rant about how I hate the Catholic Church, I am sure there would have been no problem but i didn't. They couldn't handle it. Needless to say, I didn't return to such a narrow-minded, uncharitable group

 

[Foxfyre]

well, maybe the folks here at the forum need to take note of your story.

They frankly reflect the views and animosity I have seen in my personal experiences. I have been to non-Catholic "churches" before (there is only ONE Church) and it never fails.. Things are good, people are friendly toward me UNTIL I tell them I am Catholic. If I wnet on some rant about how I hate the Catholic Church, I am sure there would have been no problem but i didn't. They couldn't handle it. Needless to say, I didn't return to such a narrow-minded, uncharitable group

I get the same idiotic comments as a Christian period. But the comments are soooo ignorant and ill informed I just shrug them off. The opinion of anybody mean enough or cruel enough to try to shake or disparage a religious person's faith isn't worth losing any sleep over. Pity such people. Don't fret about them.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I get the same idiotic comments as a Christian period. But the comments are soooo ignorant and ill informed I just shrug them off. The opinion of anybody mean enough or cruel enough to try to shake or disparage a religious person's faith isn't worth losing any sleep over. Pity such people. Don't fret about them.

for the most part, that's what I do... It just never ceases to amaze me how hateful people are toward Catholics just bc they don't hate the CC and want to immediately become Baptists or non-denoms.. Oh well, their loss.. seriously. I wouldn't trade what I have for... well, for what I used to have. I used to be a very lost person... lonely, depressed.. I can't say I never feel those things anymore but not nearly as often as b4. I found something very precious when I found true Catholicism.. Now if only it really existed in the world... sigh..

Well, that's a little weird kind of joke but it is true that.. for one, the SSPX are not ubiquitous and I don't see them becoming so any time soon. There are some good NO Churches but they are also few and far between.. Jesus said there'd be days like this.. sigh. He said his followers would be hated by all... Following Him means becoming as rare as.. SSPX Churches.. I mean, if you follow Jesus, you will find what I have found..

well, I don't know... Maybe not..? It's not guaranteed.. I almost didn't find the SSPX although I really do believe it was God himself who led me to find it.. no exaggeration whatsoever..

And yet, again... i am very far from one of those, can't go to Mass right now. The Mass used to be the highlight of my day.. pathetic

 

[Foxfyre]

for the most part, that's what I do... It just never ceases to amaze me how hateful people are toward Catholics just bc they don't hate the CC and want to immediately become Baptists or non-denoms.. Oh well, their loss.. seriously. I wouldn't trade what I have for... well, for what I used to have. I used to be a very lost person... lonely, depressed.. I can't say I never feel those things anymore but not nearly as often as b4. I found something very precious when I found true Catholicism.. Now if only it really existed in the world... sigh..

Well, that's a little weird kind of joke but it is true that.. for one, the SSPX are not ubiquitous and I don't see them becoming so any time soon. There are some good NO Churches but they are also few and far between.. Jesus said there'd be days like this.. sigh. He said his followers would be hated by all... Following Him means becoming as rare as.. SSPX Churches.. I mean, if you follow Jesus, you will find what I have found..

well, I don't know... Maybe not..? It's not guaranteed.. I almost didn't find the SSPX although I really do believe it was God himself who led me to find it.. no exaggeration whatsoever..

And yet, again... i am very far from one of those, can't go to Mass right now. The Mass used to be the highlight of my day.. pathetic

I can't say you're right or wrong. Each of us must find his/her own way and each of us must have his/her own personal relationship with the living God. The SSPX would certainly not be the first group within the RCC to be at odds with pope(s), cardinal(s) etc. and threaten a split within the Church. But I always feel honest debate generally gets us closer to where we need to be. Demonization and destructive policy/language/behavior rarely ever does.

If Jesus didn't teach us anything else, he should have taught us to use logic, reason, and persuasion and not hate and hatefulness with others.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I can't say you're right or wrong. Each of us must find his/her own way and each of us must have his/her own personal relationship with the living God. The SSPX would certainly not be the first group within the RCC to be at odds with pope(s), cardinal(s) etc. and threaten a split within the Church. But I always feel honest debate generally gets us closer to where we need to be. Demonization and destructive policy/language/behavior rarely ever does.

If Jesus didn't teach us anything else, he should have taught us to use logic, reason, and persuasion and not hate and hatefulness with others.

I have to correct something you said. The SSPX did NOT split with the Church. It IS the Church, although there are problems there also... but you can't blame the clergy there for the problem, which was caused by something that had never happened b4 in the RCC, namely: radical liberals took over the Vatican and by extension, ALL Catholic Churches, meaning the buildings and properties owned by Catholics up until 1965. It was hardly anything they knew in a concrete way how to deal with.

The SSPX continued the true Catholic Faith, breaking with Vatican II but NOT with true Catholicism (as things APPEAR). Of course the novus ordo sect would tell you it was the sspx who split, but they are LYING. It was the liberals who stole the Vatican who split with Traditional, TRUE Catholicism. The devil is a sneaky, lying DECEIVER. Tody, "everyone" thinks--when you say "Catholic"-- that you mean the Roman Church in Italy, aka the Vatican. Well, that used to be the case but no more...

It's kind of like.. No, it is very much like.. the US election Steal 2020. Bidim is NOT the true president. He is a usurper. And the last several popes are also (I don't think JP I is in that group, though [I speak of JP I, not JP II]. In fact, the fact that he was about to make some real an holy changes in Church leadership is the reason the liberals in the Church killed him).

 

[Foxfyre]

I have to correct something you said. The SSPX did NOT split with the Church. It IS the Church, although there are problems there also... but you can't blame the clergy there for the problem, which was caused by something that had never happened b4 in the RCC, namely: radical liberals took over the Vatican and by extension, ALL Catholic Churches, meaning the buildings and properties owned by Catholics up until 1965. It was hardly anything they knew in a concrete way how to deal with.

The SSPX continued the true Catholic Faith, breaking with Vatican II but NOT with true Catholicism (as things APPEAR). Of course the novus ordo sect would tell you it was the sspx who split, but they are LYING. It was the liberals who stole the Vatican who split with Traditional, TRUE Catholicism. The devil is a sneaky, lying DECEIVER. Tody, "everyone" thinks--when you say "Catholic"-- that you mean the Roman Church in Italy, aka the Vatican. Well, that used to be the case but no more...

It's kind of like.. No, it is very much like.. the US election Steal 2020. Bidim is NOT the true president. He is a usurper. And the last several popes are also (I don't think JP I is in that group, though [I speak of JP I, not JP II]. In fact, the fact that he was about to make some real an holy changes in Church leadership is the reason the liberals in the Church killed him).

Nevertheless the SSPX has no canonical authority within the modern Roman Catholic Church and the SSPX rejects the canonical authority of the current Pope just as Martin Luther did back in 1517. If not a split, it definitely is a house divided. There are roughly 1 million of you. There are 1.2 billion people who profess the Roman Catholic faith.

Again I say Luther had no intent of splitting away from the Roman Catholic Church but intended to reform it. The SSPX has no intent of splitting away from the Roman Catholic Church but intends to reform it.

I personally have no opinion one way or the other, but I always think it a healthy thing when people question and test what they have been told to believe and that they have good information to support what they come to believe.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Nevertheless the SSPX has no canonical authority within the modern Roman Catholic Church and the SSPX rejects the canonical authority of the current Pope just as Martin Luther did back in 1517. If not a split, it definitely is a house divided. There are roughly 1 million of you. There are 1.2 billion people who profess the Roman Catholic faith.

Again I say Luther had no intent of splitting away from the Roman Catholic Church but intended to reform it. The SSPX has no intent of splitting away from the Roman Catholic Church but intends to reform it.

I personally have no opinion one way or the other, but I always think it a healthy thing when people question and test what they have been told to believe and that they have good information to support what they come to believe.

The francis church so called has no canonical authority because, again, that sect STOLE the Church, the most visible aspects of the structural Church. Bidim excercises the office of president but that does not mean he is a legitimate president, same thing w/ the hierarchy we have now. The more I learn about all this, the stronger is my Sedevacantism.

I actually physically CRINGE when I hear Paul VI or Jn XXIII being called Saint! OMG! They were out to de-Christianize the Church and it looks they they have made good on APPEARING to do so. And as we all know, appearances are everything.. (sarcasm).

And you are incorrect. If Luther started out wanting to reform the Church, he did not stay that course and the last few years of his life were centered on doing what the Vatican II sect did hundreds of years later...

Jesus said that His true followers would be "hated by all"--hated enough to get rid of every last visible trace of them.

 

[Foxfyre]

The francis church so called has no canonical authority because, again, that sect STOLE the Church, the most visible aspects of the structural Church. Bidim excercises the office of president but that does not mean he is a legitimate president, same thing w/ the hierarchy we have now. The more I learn about all this, the stronger is my Sedevacantism.

I actually physically CRINGE when I hear Paul VI or Jn XXIII being called Saint! OMG! They were out to de-Christianize the Church and it looks they they have made good on APPEARING to do so. And as we all know, appearances are everything.. (sarcasm).

And you are incorrect. If Luther started out wanting to reform the Church, he did not stay that course and the last few years of his life were centered on doing what the Vatican II sect did hundreds of years later...

Jesus said that His true followers would be "hated by all"--hated enough to get rid of every last visible trace of them.

I won't debate the point since I believe the history is pretty much what it is.

Luther did not leave the Roman Catholic Church. Pope Leo X ejected him from the Church so Luther was under no obligation to the Roman Church in the time he had left after that. Some of Luther's doctrines I disagree with, but I credit him with being the spark of Reformation in the Church overall including the RCC. Some of it was badly needed, some of it I think was in error, but I hold open the possibility that Luther was God's instrument to effect Reformation in the Church and did much to increase the number of believers in the world.

Every religious denomination, sect, movement seeks to represent the one true faith the most accurately and faithfully and I don't think ANY have fully achieved that or will ever achieve that. Some may be quite a bit closer to it than others, but all sin and fall short. Which of course is why everybody needs a Savior.

I trust in a loving and all wise God who I think likely doesn't care much about our theology but appreciates and blesses all who love and serve Him regardless of what beliefs get them to that point. Again I look forward to knowing all the truth once we get to heaven. And I am prepared to have to eat some of my own words and acknowledge where I got it wrong too.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I won't debate the point since I believe the history is pretty much what it is.

Luther did not leave the Roman Catholic Church. Pope Leo X ejected him from the Church so Luther was under no obligation to the Roman Church in the time he had left after that. Some of Luther's doctrines I disagree with, but I credit him with being the spark of Reformation in the Church overall including the RCC. Some of it was badly needed, some of it I think was in error, but I hold open the possibility that Luther was God's instrument to effect Reformation in the Church and did much to increase the number of believers in the world.

Every religious denomination, sect, movement seeks to represent the one true faith the most accurately and faithfully and I don't think ANY have fully achieved that or will ever achieve that. Some may be quite a bit closer to it than others, but all sin and fall short. Which of course is why everybody needs a Savior.

I trust in a loving and all wise God who I think likely doesn't care much about our theology but appreciates and blesses all who love and serve Him regardless of what beliefs get them to that point. Again I look forward to knowing all the truth once we get to heaven. And I am prepared to have to eat some of my own words and acknowledge where I got it wrong too.

Luther left the Church since he knew he would be excommunicated, was given numerous opportunities to come to reason. I mean, you can't argue with the Church instituted by Christ Himself. For him to act like HE was right and Jesus was wrong is the height of arrogance and pride. They say that last thing is a killer.

Anyway, once again, it is amazing that non-Catholics tend to heap praise on Luther (though I wouldn't accuse you of going that far..) and yet I never hear them talk about how BAD he was... how blasphemous, disrespectful.. crude, vulgar.. rebellious, etc.

The bottom line is that the CC is the Church Christ founded and Luther, a mere man, thought he could do better. As we can all see, the world has gone DOWNHILL morally since Luther... He was the beginning of the "end."

 

[Foxfyre]

Luther left the Church since he knew he would be excommunicated, was given numerous opportunities to come to reason. I mean, you can't argue with the Church instituted by Christ Himself. For him to act like HE was right and Jesus was wrong is the height of arrogance and pride. They say that last thing is a killer.

Anyway, once again, it is amazing that non-Catholics tend to heap praise on Luther (though I wouldn't accuse you of going that far..) and yet I never hear them talk about how BAD he was... how blasphemous, disrespectful.. crude, vulgar.. rebellious, etc.

The bottom line is that the CC is the Church Christ founded and Luther, a mere man, thought he could do better. As we can all see, the world has gone DOWNHILL morally since Luther... He was the beginning of the "end."

I'm sorry but you need to study impartial Church history to understand what actually happened during that period of history. You said earlier that you haven't studied up on it and I'm sure you are repeating what you have been told about it. But I sincerely believe you are wrong about that. Not that it matters what either of us believe in the grand scheme of things.

 

[notmyfault2020]

I'm sorry but you need to study impartial Church history to understand what actually happened during that period of history. You said earlier that you haven't studied up on it and I'm sure you are repeating what you have been told about it.

How insulting to my integrity

I'll have you know I base all I've said about Luther on ONE thing alone:

His own (hideous) words. He condemns himself.

 

[Foxfyre]

How insulting to my integrity

I'll have you know I base all I've said about Luther on ONE thing alone:

His own (hideous) words. He condemns himself.

You are the one who said you needed to read up on church history more. I just took you at your word. No insult to your integrity or anything else.

But oh well. Have a pleasant evening.

 

[notmyfault2020]

You are the one who said you needed to read up on church history more. I just took you at your word. No insult to your integrity or anything else.

But oh well. Have a pleasant evening.

That comment about wanting to know more about Church history could apply to ANYONE..

Does anyone know as much as God about that? You seem to imply there are some humans out there who know just the right level of information on the Church's history..

Even after 1963 years?

hardly