Zone1 Is the perpetual virginity of Mary biblical?

[Foxfyre]

Except...Isaiah was not referencing Mary, but a young woman (his daughter) who was married to King Hezekiah and who would bear the king's child.

I know that is the theory of many secular theologians but the scriptures themselves are unclear. There is no indication that Isaiah or any other of that era had a son named 'Immanuel' translated "God with us" or "God is with us" from the ancient Hebrew. It is unreasonable to think that if such a miracle had occurred in the 7th or 8th Century BC that a lot more would have been written about it.

There are only two Christmas narratives in the New Testament and it is interesting that Matthew focused on the virgin birth but Luke did not mention that Mary was a virgin. Luke did say that Mary was with child when she and Joseph went to Bethlehem with no indication it was Joseph's child.

It will be interesting to discuss these things and get the whole story when we get to Heaven. I like to think such discussions will be possible leaning on Paul's comment: "Now we see through a glass darkly but then face to face. . ."

For someone as curious as I am about these things, it is a delightful anticipation.

 

[forkintheroad7]

Perhaps because the angel said SHE would conceive, with no mention of Joseph.

bending yourself into a pretzel again

just to hold onto your preconceived notions/beliefs

oh well. . your choice

 

[Foxfyre]

I have often felt the same wway, even as a practicing Cahtolic, that there wasn't much need to pray to the saints. But when I encountered a seemingly impossible situation not long ago, I found myself praying to the St of Impossible Things, St Jude. The situation is not entirely resolved but I know how I felt after praying to him: I felt listened to. Maybe feelings alone don't count for much, but I really, really appreciated feeling

hopeful

I say whatever works. I have never felt that God ever dictated that there is only one way to worship, only one way to honor Him, only one way to pray, only one way to believe. I often wonder if the admonition to 'pray without ceasing' in I Thessalonians wasn't illustrated by Tevya's ongoing conversations with God as he went about his various tasks during the day. (Fiddler on the Roof) Certainly it was not meant for us to be on our knees 24/7.

So I see no harm (or futility) in asking Mary or the saints to intercede for us, in using the Stations of the Cross or the rosary or a special place or anything else that is harmless to ourselves or others to help us focus and worship/pray etc. Nor do I think it necessary to utilize those things.

God is an unknowingly huge God who I think wants us to love and obey Him for our own good and that of our fellow man, but I don't think he orders strict rules and customs and laws to be followed in order to do that. At the same time I think he respects the fundamentalist in his worship and devotion as I hope he respects mine and yours and all believers.

 

[Foxfyre]

what?

I didn't know I was attempting to affect what you wrote...? I don't get this

Just my way of saying I could not relate your post to anything I wrote.

 

[Foxfyre]

bending yourself into a pretzel again

just to hold onto your preconceived notions/beliefs

oh well. . your choice

How is stating what is in the Bible bending myself into a pretzel? How is looking at the scriptures honestly and without prejudice bending myself into a pretzel? I don't see how you can be so logical in one post and so judgmental in another.

 

[forkintheroad7]

God is an unknowingly huge God who I think wants us to love and obey Him for our own good and that of our fellow man, but I don't think he orders strict rules and customs and laws to be followed in order to do that. At the same time I think he respects the fundamentalist in his worship and devotion as I hope he respects mine and yours and all believers.

I think we don't even know most of the time what God REALLY thinks (or wants from us). All we have is Scripture and the Church teachings (well, Catholics have the Church... Christ's dogmatic/doctrinal teachings; other "churches" have a semblance of same). When I speak about God, I only speak what I am very certain of, and I have even wondered about some of that, sporadically. I mean, I used to think such things as "God would never do this or that to this or that person" and yet, terrible things happen to people all the time. And we are left wondering WHY?

And no one has an answer to that one word question. It seems to me there is more we do NOT know than what we "know."

I'm glad you are not (overtly) anti-Catholic. To me, those who are come across as incredibly closed minded and sometimes hateful. We don't need that in the world, do we?

 

[forkintheroad7]

How is stating what is in the Bible bending myself into a pretzel? How is looking at the scriptures honestly and without prejudice bending myself into a pretzel? I don't see how you can be so logical in one post and so judgmental in another.

I was quite logical there. The poster claims to go by the Bible, yet he injects things into the text, things in his own mind/belief-system. He said that the angel told Mary she WOULD conceive. That is true. Then he says that Joseph is not mentioned. Why, pray tell, does Joseph have to be mentioned? He was mentioned already, when it was said he was betrothed to Mary. The poster is talking around in circles, trying to justify NOT believing in Luke, Chapter one.

 

[Meriweather]

I mean, I used to think such things as "God would never do this or that to this or that person" and yet, terrible things happen to people all the time. And we are left wondering WHY?

And no one has an answer to that one word question. It seems to me there is more we do NOT know than what we "know."

Agree. The one avenue I do take on this is the Church's descriptions of God's perfect will compared to God's permissive will. It appears that God can make good come about by permitting some things to happen. Somethings he permits us to do even though his perfect will might be against us taking that action. It's one of those things that is fun to contemplate every so often--but not to the point where it becomes senseless.

 

[Foxfyre]

I think we don't even know most of the time what God REALLY thinks (or wants from us). All we have is Scripture and the Church teachings (well, Catholics have the Church... Christ's dogmatic/doctrinal teachings; other "churches" have a semblance of same). When I speak about God, I only speak what I am very certain of, and I have even wondered about some of that, sporadically. I mean, I used to think such things as "God would never do this or that to this or that person" and yet, terrible things happen to people all the time. And we are left wondering WHY?

And no one has an answer to that one word question. It seems to me there is more we do NOT know than what we "know."

I'm glad you are not (overtly) anti-Catholic. To me, those who are come across as incredibly closed minded and sometimes hateful. We don't need that in the world, do we?

I am not at all anti-Catholic overtly or the slightest bit subtly. I worked for the Catholics for a number of years in Pittsburg KS and it was one of the most satisfying, fun and rewarding jobs I've had. Many in my family and among my friends are Catholic and I have worshipped with them often and I never felt that I had not been to church.

But neither do I embrace a lot of the Catholic dogma and doctrines while not criticizing those who do.

I believe those who love the Lord God with all their hearts, souls and mind will be instructed on what God expects of us and we know when we fall short of what God expects of us. I believe in the power of prayer and I believe in miracles. And I don't think we have any business telling God how to do His job or that we are more righteous or Christian than anybody else. And I believe we all stumble, fall short, and sin but God does the best He can with us just the same.

 

[Foxfyre]

I was quite logical there. The poster claims to go by the Bible, yet he injects things into the text, things in his own mind/belief-system. He said that the angel told Mary she WOULD conceive. That is true. Then he says that Joseph is not mentioned. Why, pray tell, does Joseph have to be mentioned? He was mentioned already, when it was said he was betrothed to Mary. The poster is talking around in circles, trying to justify NOT believing in Luke, Chapter one.

My point was the Luke doesn't get into angels or the virgin birth in the Christmas narrative. That was exclusively Matthew's narrative. Try reading what I wrote a little more carefully please.

 

[forkintheroad7]

Agree. The one avenue I do take on this is the Church's descriptions of God's perfect will compared to God's permissive will. It appears that God can make good come about by permitting some things to happen. Somethings he permits us to do even though his perfect will might be against us taking that action. It's one of those things that is fun to contemplate every so often--but not to the point where it becomes senseless.

well, I would like to know what you consider "senseless." Are you talking about people who get ticked at God because he doesn't do this or that and then they call themselves atheists and/or stop going to Church because of it?

Well, if that's what you're saying, I totally agree. I have been angry as *&^%$ at God and I know I will "go there" again before it's over, but I never stopped believing in Him or seeking Him. What some people don't seem to realize is that it is indeed possible to actually KNOW that He exists and is there for us in prayer. So I am at that place and I pity those who are not.... not sure how I can help them get to where I am, but whatever----

 

[forkintheroad7]

My point was the Luke doesn't get into angels or the virgin birth in the Christmas narrative. That was exclusively Matthew's narrative. Try reading what I wrote a little more carefully please.

What did i not read carefully?

 

[forkintheroad7]

My point was the Luke doesn't get into angels or the virgin birth in the Christmas narrative. That was exclusively Matthew's narrative. Try reading what I wrote a little more carefully please.

The words in Luke are CLEAR

Mary was surprised that she would have a child! Yet she was betrothed to be married, and most Jewish women couldn't wait for the day when they would conceive!

Why is that being ignored here?

oh, that's right. It sounds Catholic.

Gee, I didn't know the exact words of scripture were up for debate! Some scriptures are, but these ones are clear as can be

 

[MarathonMike]

I think we don't even know most of the time what God REALLY thinks (or wants from us). All we have is Scripture and the Church teachings (well, Catholics have the Church... Christ's dogmatic/doctrinal teachings; other "churches" have a semblance of same). When I speak about God, I only speak what I am very certain of, and I have even wondered about some of that, sporadically. I mean, I used to think such things as "God would never do this or that to this or that person" and yet, terrible things happen to people all the time. And we are left wondering WHY?

And no one has an answer to that one word question. It seems to me there is more we do NOT know than what we "know."

I'm glad you are not (overtly) anti-Catholic. To me, those who are come across as incredibly closed minded and sometimes hateful. We don't need that in the world, do we?

I was raised by very religious Methodist parents and much of my extended family are devout Christians including a cousin who is a Minister. I just had many questions that neither my parents nor anyone else in my family could answer with anything that made sense to me. I have my own conceptual view of existence. God and the afterlife that makes sense to me. If I'm wrong oh well, I'll have lots of good company.

 

[forkintheroad7]

I am not at all anti-Catholic overtly or the slightest bit subtly. I worked for the Catholics for a number of years in Pittsburg KS and it was one of the most satisfying, fun and rewarding jobs I've had. Many in my family and among my friends are Catholic and I have worshipped with them often and I never felt that I had not been to church.

But neither do I embrace a lot of the Catholic dogma and doctrines while not criticizing those who do.

I believe those who love the Lord God with all their hearts, souls and mind will be instructed on what God expects of us and we know when we fall short of what God expects of us. I believe in the power of prayer and I believe in miracles. And I don't think we have any business telling God how to do His job or that we are more righteous or Christian than anybody else. And I believe we all stumble, fall short, and sin but God does the best He can with us just the same.

ditto here. But Jesus did establish ONE Church. If you study the Early Church Fathers, you find

OMG

Catholicism

 

[forkintheroad7]

I was raised by very religious Methodist parents and much of my extended family are devout Christians including a cousin who is a Minister. I just had many questions that neither my parents nor anyone else in my family could answer with anything that made sense to me. I have my own conceptual view of existence. God and the afterlife that makes sense to me. If I'm wrong oh well, I'll have lots of good company.

yes, but Hell is a miserable, sewer-like place, from my best information. I wouldn't want my worst enemy to go there.

Well, yeh, I would. Satan is the worst of the worst enemies. But I don't have to "want" him to go there. He's going.

 

[MarathonMike]

yes, but Hell is a miserable, sewer-like place, from my best information. I wouldn't want my worst enemy to go there.

Well, yeh, I would. Satan is the worst of the worst enemies. But I don't have to "want" him to go there. He's going.

If Hell exists, which I do not believe is the case.

 

[Foxfyre]

What did i not read carefully?

My post. You completely missed the content and context.

 

[Foxfyre]

The words in Luke are CLEAR

Mary was surprised that she would have a child! Yet she was betrothed to be married, and most Jewish women couldn't wait for the day when they would conceive!

Why is that being ignored here?

oh, that's right. It sounds Catholic.

Gee, I didn't know the exact words of scripture were up for debate! Some scriptures are, but these ones are clear as can be

Completely non sequitur to the post I made.

 

[forkintheroad7]

If Hell exists, which I do not believe is the case.

I 1000% believe in Hell. Life on this earth can be hell if you don't do what certain people want. The devil hates Christians and puts that hate into the hearts of humans. That hate has to have a place to go after death and it isn't Heaven