The True Root of All Evil...

[KevinWestern]

Money by itself isn't evil, it's what the love of money does to people that makes it so.

Money is extremely addictive.

Yes, I agree. It appears you agree with me then. Money - itself - isn't the root of evil, it's the selfish love of money that creates the evil.

Again, if you came to the realization that everything and everyone around you was One, and that all your neighbors were “you”, and that everyone in the United States was “you”, would you have any need to devote your life to making as much money as possible?

What is the point of spending so much effort to take money away from (what is essentially) “yourself”?


.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Money by itself isn't evil, it's what the love of money does to people that makes it so.

Money is extremely addictive.

Yes, I agree. It appears you agree with me then. Money - itself - isn't the root of evil, it's the selfish love of money that creates the evil.

Again, if you came to the realization that everything and everyone around you was One, and that all your neighbors were “you”, and that everyone in the United States was “you”, would you have any need to devote your life to making as much money as possible?

What is the point of spending so much effort to take money away from (what is essentially) “yourself”?


.

My life isn't devoted to making the most money I can. I earn money because that's what is needed in todays society. I would like to one day live off the land and not have to worry about such things.

Your last question doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[KevinWestern]

My life isn't devoted to making the most money I can. I earn money because that's what is needed in todays society. I would like to one day live off the land and not have to worry about such things.

Definitely wasn’t accusing you of that! And yes, I realize that we are required to make money (I do this too). But we’re “trapped” into many of these systems not necessarily because we – as individuals – are selfish, but rather the collective selfishness of all others before us. It’s a tough cycle to break out of, indeed.

Again, the end goal would be somehow elevating everyone in the world to become completely unselfish. Incredibly crazy idea to think of – I know – but not completely impossible.

Your last question doesn't make any sense to me.

The last question was sorta in the idea that we are all “one” (Buddhism). Essentially this means that I am you, and you are me. We may believe we’re different entities, but in fact we are not. If I hurt you, I am essentially hurting myself (which makes no sense to do). If this concept doesn’t jive with you no worries, it’s really not that important right now.

I think the most important thing is to live as unselfishly as possible (and as consciously as possible of others and the world around us) and we’ll be on the right track.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Money is the root of all evil.

Money only manifests "evil" when people seek it for selfish reasons. Money is just a piece of paper - a store of value that can be very useful. In a society where everyone loves one another unselfishly, money would not "cause" evil to occur.

Selfishness is the root.

Money is not evil. The love of money is the root of all evil, Kevin. Why did Jesus teach this? Because man cannot serve both mammon and God. He will despise the one and love the other or vise versa. This is why the love of money is called the root of all evil. Money is a god in the lives of some.

 

[KevinWestern]

Money is not evil. The love of money is the root of all evil, Kevin. Why did Jesus teach this? Because man cannot serve both mammon and God. He will despise the one and love the other or vise versa. This is why the love of money is called the root of all evil. Money is a god in the lives of some.

I definitely wasn't arguing that money - itself - is the root of all evil.

The OP asserts that "selfishness" is the root of all evil. The love of money is just a branch of selfishness (so I wouldn't call "the love of money" the root). In agreement?

Jesus was a highly evolved, enlightened being. He knew that we were all essentially "ONE" and that the true path to enlightenment, peace, prosperity was to unselfishly love each and every person in existence. That was famously his only commandment.

This is what the Buddha taught, and the conclusion that all enlightened beings reach. Jesus is definitely a guy we should all look up to and aspire to be like.


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[Not2BSubjugated]

As the new Libertarian manifesto goes: Don't Hurt People and Don't Take Their Stuff.

I think that's a pretty good philosophy.

It’s interesting you bring this up. Most of the people who kind of jive with this "Oneness" philosophy often get mistaken for wanting a “one government”, etc. Totally not the case. Socialism/communism usually means that a government will FORCE people to give to others. That's not the idea.

The philosophy laid out in the OP will only truly work if people are completely free and find it in themselves to be unselfishly loving and caring. They can’t be “forced” to come to this conclusion; they instead must be free and allowed to reach this conclusion on their own.

Unfortunately, I don’t know if Libertarianism will work with a group of selfish individuals and societal structures.

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Kevin, I love you for this post.

I am nearly diametrically opposed to your philosophy, mind you, but I love that you have a religious mindset that doesn't condone the use of force to perpetuate itself. I simply can't explain how refreshing it is to come across your like, -and- presumably hailing from the Western hemisphere!

Now, enough gushing. Onto a more substantive response.

I do agree that selfishness can be looked at as one of the key ingredients in nearly every crime one human commits against another. Also key is the use of oxygen. I've never heard of anyone who doesn't breathe oxygen committing a crime against anyone else. Water drinking, as well. Nobody, and I mean nobody, who doesn't drink water, ever does anything fucked up to anybody on this planet.

Essentially, what I'm getting at is that selfishness is a given. Whether you believe in a universal one'ness, as in your case, or aren't sure what to believe, as in my case, you must acknowledge that the fact of the matter, as according to the physical reality we can observe via basic sensory input, is that man is not a hive-minded creature. That is, we don't seem to act via a communal consciousness, but rather each human seems to have its own individual ideas and experiences. We all look at the world through our own window and no other.

Given that this is undeniably the natural state of man, selfishness is a conundrum that can no more be escaped than the need to breathe. Every single decision that any human being makes is an act of selfishness. Every single decision satisfies a value constructed by the decider's individual consciousness. Even "unselfish" acts.

Every time you've ever given anyone anything, you were still acting selfishly. You gave what you gave because you -wanted- to give it. Whatever it was that you gave, you valued the results of giving it to its recipient more than you valued what it cost you to do so. Every single action you initiate is geared toward manipulating your environment to more fully represent your individual values at any given moment. Period. This is inescapable.

Now, let's logic our way along, here. . . If selfishness is an inescapable reality, -and- you say that selfishness is the root of all evil, then essentially what you're saying is that the root of all evil is the very nature of reality. This is simply not a useful observation. I'm moved to say something along the lines of, "And if frogs had wings. . . "

Even if one is to buy into your religious view of one'ness, the elimination of selfish'ness is still the -holy shit- long route to solving anything. If Jesus is an example of someone who achieved enlightened selflessness, and so is the Buddha. . . How many Buddha's and Christs have come along in the entire history of man? Half a dozen? A dozen? A hundred? There's over 6 billion people alive -right now-.

The love of money is just as useless of a response. Money is simply a tool to simplify trading so that, if you grow apples for instance, you don't have to find someone who grows greens AND needs apples in particular in order to get your greens, or someone who has access to drinking water AND needs apples in order to quench your thirst. Money is simply a universal conversion rate for the fruit of your labor.

Thus, if you say that the love of money is the root of all evil, you're saying that it's evil to love the fruit of your labor. Anyone who doesn't love the fruit of their labor is either in the wrong line of work or has no pride.

Personally, I accept that I am selfish. I help the people I care to help when I care to help them which, thankfully for the people in my life, is pretty often. Also, I -love- money. First off, I love the concept of it: I love that societies past were wise enough to come up with a system that allowed for people to provide highly specialized services that don't directly produce any physical product and -still- live well via that labor. I love that societies past came up with an economic system that saved us all insane amounts of time in terms of how much of it we have to spend simply fulfilling our own physical upkeep (cuz if we all had to farm and trade our wares at a bazaar, holy shit there goes all our free time).

I also love wealth. I love having it. I'd love to have more of it, and it has nothing to do with wanting to take it from others, or wanting them to have less of it. I simply love to be able to acquire what I want when I want it (the fun thing about that property is, again, it's something we all share. Everybody wants to be able to acquire or achieve what they want, when they want it, period. The only difference is in -what- is wanted). Also, the love of wealth is often spurred by what your philosophy would consider some level of selflessness. One of the things I love about having wealth is that, if someone I care about is in need, I have the means of helping them. Believing that we're all one and deferring the wealth to the world as a whole isn't going to cause the world to pay my mother's rent if she's short one month. If I got that money on hand, tho? Mom's got a roof over her head. In short, being the individual in control of the wealth allows one to channel that wealth toward the purposes that they consider worthy as opposed to standing idly by and letting the chips fall where they may. If you seek to better the world via any means that is realistically plausible, love of wealth is almost inevitable.

Personally, I say that the primary roots of evil (at least those ones that can reasonably be combatted) are dishonesty and the desire to subjugate one another. Even if your religion is true, history is populated by a lot more honest, live-and-let-live types than it is by people who've achieved the level of selflessness of Jesus or the Buddha. This leads me to believe that, even if true selflessness is possible, achieving a mindset of honesty and losing the desire to force everyone else to obey your values are sure as fuck a shorter route than messianic detachment.

Think about it, though. . . if the lovers of wealth only acquired said wealth via honest trade and didn't use it to subjugate the initiative of others, selfishness wouldn't be a problem.

Mind you, I'm not saying my fixes are particularly realistic, simply a higher-probability option. Dishonesty and subjugation are things society can realistically combat. Acts of dishonesty (theft, fraud, etc) can be punished and deterred, as can acts that subjugate the initiative of others (theft, murder, kidnapping, assault, etc) via the most basic of societal laws and standards. The life-view of every individual, on the other hand, isn't something that can be controlled at all. When humans decided to travel overseas, it was more realistic to build a vessel to deal with the realities of maritime travel than to wish for the continents to be closer together.

Lastly, minor point. You seem to misunderstand the basic premise of Libertarianism, which is individualism. Not only would Libertarianism not conflict with the existence of selfish individuals, it's actually a system that embraces and facilitates the selfishness of the individual. The whole idea of Libertarianism is that government should exert limited control over the people so that each individual has the liberty to pursue the values of their -own- conscience. Libertarianism -is- selfishness in action.

Please don't take that as a criticism of Libertarianism. Personally, I'm proud to say that I'm generally libertarian, and equally proud to say that I have accepted that I am a selfish individualist who stoutly refuses to adhere to any morals but my own, and who stoutly refuses to try and force you to adhere to mine.

 

[RKMBrown]

Any human behavior can be detrimental, when taken to an absurd extreme.

Claiming any one as the universal root of evil is just too simplistic for words.

That's completely fine if you believe that, however I am asserting there is just one root - the bi-product of the illusion of separateness (which is selfishness).

Perhaps can you provide an example of "a problem" where selfishness wasn't the root cause?

Maybe that would be an interesting place to start from.


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Clearly you have not seen what happens when you crowd people together.

1 Lust does not come from selfishness.
2 Gluttony does not come from selfishness.
3 Greed does not come from selfishness.
4 Sloth does not come from selfishness.
5 Wrath does not come from selfishness.
6 Envy does not come from selfishness.
7 Pride does not come from selfishness.

Selfishness is like fairness, it's one of those words that be used in meaningless ways.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

Any human behavior can be detrimental, when taken to an absurd extreme.

Claiming any one as the universal root of evil is just too simplistic for words.

That's completely fine if you believe that, however I am asserting there is just one root - the bi-product of the illusion of separateness (which is selfishness).

Perhaps can you provide an example of "a problem" where selfishness wasn't the root cause?

Maybe that would be an interesting place to start from.


.

Clearly you have not seen what happens when you crowd people together.

1 Lust does not come from selfishness.
2 Gluttony does not come from selfishness.
3 Greed does not come from selfishness.
4 Sloth does not come from selfishness.
5 Wrath does not come from selfishness.
6 Envy does not come from selfishness.
7 Pride does not come from selfishness.

Selfishness is like fairness, it's one of those words that be used in meaningless ways.

Actually, in the OP's defense, all of these things come from selfishness.

Lust is born of the desire to physically satiate oneself.

Gluttony is: See Lust

Greed? Really? Greed and selfishness are separate? Holy shit, I'm not even responding to that particular claim.

Sloth is the desire to eschew all responsibility and simply laze about because its easier and/or more immediately comfortable than doing otherwise. Acting foolishly (or not acting at all) in order to fulfill an immediate desire is pretty much the textbook definition of the sort of selfishness that is universally considered detrimental.

Wrath is born either of the desire to emotionally gratify oneself or to satisfy a personal value, by avenging a perceived wrong.

Envy? I should skip this one, too. Envy is born of seeing something someone else has and wanting it for oneself.

Pride? SERIOUSLY!? Holy shit, by definition, pride is self-love. SELF-LOVE ISN'T SELFISH?! asledkfja;ldkfdsakljfasd I don't even know what to say to that.

 

[KevinWestern]

1 Lust does not come from selfishness. .

Lust is the craving to make oneself feel “good”, sexually, often at the cost of others. Selfishness is most definitely the root.

2 Gluttony does not come from selfishness.

Gluttony is eating more food than one could ever possibly need, again to make oneself feel “good” at the expense of others (there are people STARVING). Selfishness is most definitely the root.

3 Greed does not come from selfishness.

Greed is wanting more many than one may ever need for any practical or good reasons at the cost of others. Selfishness is most definitely the root.

4 Sloth does not come from selfishness.

Sloth is being lazy to make oneself feel as good, comfortable as possible. If you are able-bodied, there is more than enough need to help others in the world at the current moment. Selfishness is most definitely the root.

5 Wrath does not come from selfishness.

If you practice unselfish love, there is no need to be wrathful. Why would you hurt others when they are essentially you (oneness)? Selfishness is most definitely the root.

6 Envy does not come from selfishness.

This is an easy one. You desire what others want FOR YOURSELF. Selfishness is most definitely the root.

7 Pride does not come from selfishness.

Pride is again thinking oneself is great, and gloating over the fact that “you” – as an individual – is different, wonderful. Selfishness is most definitely the root.

Selfishness is like fairness, it's one of those words that be used in meaningless ways.

Selfishness is the root of all evil, RKM.

 

[KevinWestern]

As the new Libertarian manifesto goes: Don't Hurt People and Don't Take Their Stuff.

I think that's a pretty good philosophy.

It’s interesting you bring this up. Most of the people who kind of jive with this "Oneness" philosophy often get mistaken for wanting a “one government”, etc. Totally not the case. Socialism/communism usually means that a government will FORCE people to give to others. That's not the idea.

The philosophy laid out in the OP will only truly work if people are completely free and find it in themselves to be unselfishly loving and caring. They can’t be “forced” to come to this conclusion; they instead must be free and allowed to reach this conclusion on their own.

Unfortunately, I don’t know if Libertarianism will work with a group of selfish individuals and societal structures.

.

Kevin, I love you for this post.

I am nearly diametrically opposed to your philosophy, mind you, but I love that you have a religious mindset that doesn't condone the use of force to perpetuate itself. I simply can't explain how refreshing it is to come across your like, -and- presumably hailing from the Western hemisphere!

Now, enough gushing. Onto a more substantive response.

I do agree that selfishness can be looked at as one of the key ingredients in nearly every crime one human commits against another. Also key is the use of oxygen. I've never heard of anyone who doesn't breathe oxygen committing a crime against anyone else. Water drinking, as well. Nobody, and I mean nobody, who doesn't drink water, ever does anything fucked up to anybody on this planet.

Essentially, what I'm getting at is that selfishness is a given. Whether you believe in a universal one'ness, as in your case, or aren't sure what to believe, as in my case, you must acknowledge that the fact of the matter, as according to the physical reality we can observe via basic sensory input, is that man is not a hive-minded creature. That is, we don't seem to act via a communal consciousness, but rather each human seems to have its own individual ideas and experiences. We all look at the world through our own window and no other.

Given that this is undeniably the natural state of man, selfishness is a conundrum that can no more be escaped than the need to breathe. Every single decision that any human being makes is an act of selfishness. Every single decision satisfies a value constructed by the decider's individual consciousness. Even "unselfish" acts.

Every time you've ever given anyone anything, you were still acting selfishly. You gave what you gave because you -wanted- to give it. Whatever it was that you gave, you valued the results of giving it to its recipient more than you valued what it cost you to do so. Every single action you initiate is geared toward manipulating your environment to more fully represent your individual values at any given moment. Period. This is inescapable.

Now, let's logic our way along, here. . . If selfishness is an inescapable reality, -and- you say that selfishness is the root of all evil, then essentially what you're saying is that the root of all evil is the very nature of reality. This is simply not a useful observation. I'm moved to say something along the lines of, "And if frogs had wings. . . "

Even if one is to buy into your religious view of one'ness, the elimination of selfish'ness is still the -holy shit- long route to solving anything. If Jesus is an example of someone who achieved enlightened selflessness, and so is the Buddha. . . How many Buddha's and Christs have come along in the entire history of man? Half a dozen? A dozen? A hundred? There's over 6 billion people alive -right now-.

The love of money is just as useless of a response. Money is simply a tool to simplify trading so that, if you grow apples for instance, you don't have to find someone who grows greens AND needs apples in particular in order to get your greens, or someone who has access to drinking water AND needs apples in order to quench your thirst. Money is simply a universal conversion rate for the fruit of your labor.

Thus, if you say that the love of money is the root of all evil, you're saying that it's evil to love the fruit of your labor. Anyone who doesn't love the fruit of their labor is either in the wrong line of work or has no pride.

Personally, I accept that I am selfish. I help the people I care to help when I care to help them which, thankfully for the people in my life, is pretty often. Also, I -love- money. First off, I love the concept of it: I love that societies past were wise enough to come up with a system that allowed for people to provide highly specialized services that don't directly produce any physical product and -still- live well via that labor. I love that societies past came up with an economic system that saved us all insane amounts of time in terms of how much of it we have to spend simply fulfilling our own physical upkeep (cuz if we all had to farm and trade our wares at a bazaar, holy shit there goes all our free time).

I also love wealth. I love having it. I'd love to have more of it, and it has nothing to do with wanting to take it from others, or wanting them to have less of it. I simply love to be able to acquire what I want when I want it (the fun thing about that property is, again, it's something we all share. Everybody wants to be able to acquire or achieve what they want, when they want it, period. The only difference is in -what- is wanted). Also, the love of wealth is often spurred by what your philosophy would consider some level of selflessness. One of the things I love about having wealth is that, if someone I care about is in need, I have the means of helping them. Believing that we're all one and deferring the wealth to the world as a whole isn't going to cause the world to pay my mother's rent if she's short one month. If I got that money on hand, tho? Mom's got a roof over her head. In short, being the individual in control of the wealth allows one to channel that wealth toward the purposes that they consider worthy as opposed to standing idly by and letting the chips fall where they may. If you seek to better the world via any means that is realistically plausible, love of wealth is almost inevitable.

Personally, I say that the primary roots of evil (at least those ones that can reasonably be combatted) are dishonesty and the desire to subjugate one another. Even if your religion is true, history is populated by a lot more honest, live-and-let-live types than it is by people who've achieved the level of selflessness of Jesus or the Buddha. This leads me to believe that, even if true selflessness is possible, achieving a mindset of honesty and losing the desire to force everyone else to obey your values are sure as fuck a shorter route than messianic detachment.

Think about it, though. . . if the lovers of wealth only acquired said wealth via honest trade and didn't use it to subjugate the initiative of others, selfishness wouldn't be a problem.

Mind you, I'm not saying my fixes are particularly realistic, simply a higher-probability option. Dishonesty and subjugation are things society can realistically combat. Acts of dishonesty (theft, fraud, etc) can be punished and deterred, as can acts that subjugate the initiative of others (theft, murder, kidnapping, assault, etc) via the most basic of societal laws and standards. The life-view of every individual, on the other hand, isn't something that can be controlled at all. When humans decided to travel overseas, it was more realistic to build a vessel to deal with the realities of maritime travel than to wish for the continents to be closer together.

Lastly, minor point. You seem to misunderstand the basic premise of Libertarianism, which is individualism. Not only would Libertarianism not conflict with the existence of selfish individuals, it's actually a system that embraces and facilitates the selfishness of the individual. The whole idea of Libertarianism is that government should exert limited control over the people so that each individual has the liberty to pursue the values of their -own- conscience. Libertarianism -is- selfishness in action.

Please don't take that as a criticism of Libertarianism. Personally, I'm proud to say that I'm generally libertarian, and equally proud to say that I have accepted that I am a selfish individualist who stoutly refuses to adhere to any morals but my own, and who stoutly refuses to try and force you to adhere to mine.

I'll get to this in a bit. Thanks for the response, but a little long for right at the moment (at work).

 

[RKMBrown]

That's completely fine if you believe that, however I am asserting there is just one root - the bi-product of the illusion of separateness (which is selfishness).

Perhaps can you provide an example of "a problem" where selfishness wasn't the root cause?

Maybe that would be an interesting place to start from.


.

Clearly you have not seen what happens when you crowd people together.

1 Lust does not come from selfishness.
2 Gluttony does not come from selfishness.
3 Greed does not come from selfishness.
4 Sloth does not come from selfishness.
5 Wrath does not come from selfishness.
6 Envy does not come from selfishness.
7 Pride does not come from selfishness.

Selfishness is like fairness, it's one of those words that be used in meaningless ways.

Actually, in the OP's defense, all of these things come from selfishness.

Lust is born of the desire to physically satiate oneself.

Gluttony is: See Lust

Greed? Really? Greed and selfishness are separate? Holy shit, I'm not even responding to that particular claim.

Sloth is the desire to eschew all responsibility and simply laze about because its easier and/or more immediately comfortable than doing otherwise. Acting foolishly (or not acting at all) in order to fulfill an immediate desire is pretty much the textbook definition of the sort of selfishness that is universally considered detrimental.

Wrath is born either of the desire to emotionally gratify oneself or to satisfy a personal value, by avenging a perceived wrong.

Envy? I should skip this one, too. Envy is born of seeing something someone else has and wanting it for oneself.

Pride? SERIOUSLY!? Holy shit, by definition, pride is self-love. SELF-LOVE ISN'T SELFISH?! asledkfja;ldkfdsakljfasd I don't even know what to say to that.

You have the same problem as the OP. You think that because there may be associations between words that they somehow can magically be the same thing.

Try to write a sentence using only the term selfishness. Why do you think we have more than one or two words?

Put it a different way. Can you not explain the difference between selfishness and lust?

Selfishness is no more the root of lust than boobs are. By your argument I could say boob addiction is the root of all evil.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

It’s interesting you bring this up. Most of the people who kind of jive with this "Oneness" philosophy often get mistaken for wanting a “one government”, etc. Totally not the case. Socialism/communism usually means that a government will FORCE people to give to others. That's not the idea.

The philosophy laid out in the OP will only truly work if people are completely free and find it in themselves to be unselfishly loving and caring. They can’t be “forced” to come to this conclusion; they instead must be free and allowed to reach this conclusion on their own.

Unfortunately, I don’t know if Libertarianism will work with a group of selfish individuals and societal structures.

.

Kevin, I love you for this post.

I am nearly diametrically opposed to your philosophy, mind you, but I love that you have a religious mindset that doesn't condone the use of force to perpetuate itself. I simply can't explain how refreshing it is to come across your like, -and- presumably hailing from the Western hemisphere!

Now, enough gushing. Onto a more substantive response.

I do agree that selfishness can be looked at as one of the key ingredients in nearly every crime one human commits against another. Also key is the use of oxygen. I've never heard of anyone who doesn't breathe oxygen committing a crime against anyone else. Water drinking, as well. Nobody, and I mean nobody, who doesn't drink water, ever does anything fucked up to anybody on this planet.

Essentially, what I'm getting at is that selfishness is a given. Whether you believe in a universal one'ness, as in your case, or aren't sure what to believe, as in my case, you must acknowledge that the fact of the matter, as according to the physical reality we can observe via basic sensory input, is that man is not a hive-minded creature. That is, we don't seem to act via a communal consciousness, but rather each human seems to have its own individual ideas and experiences. We all look at the world through our own window and no other.

Given that this is undeniably the natural state of man, selfishness is a conundrum that can no more be escaped than the need to breathe. Every single decision that any human being makes is an act of selfishness. Every single decision satisfies a value constructed by the decider's individual consciousness. Even "unselfish" acts.

Every time you've ever given anyone anything, you were still acting selfishly. You gave what you gave because you -wanted- to give it. Whatever it was that you gave, you valued the results of giving it to its recipient more than you valued what it cost you to do so. Every single action you initiate is geared toward manipulating your environment to more fully represent your individual values at any given moment. Period. This is inescapable.

Now, let's logic our way along, here. . . If selfishness is an inescapable reality, -and- you say that selfishness is the root of all evil, then essentially what you're saying is that the root of all evil is the very nature of reality. This is simply not a useful observation. I'm moved to say something along the lines of, "And if frogs had wings. . . "

Even if one is to buy into your religious view of one'ness, the elimination of selfish'ness is still the -holy shit- long route to solving anything. If Jesus is an example of someone who achieved enlightened selflessness, and so is the Buddha. . . How many Buddha's and Christs have come along in the entire history of man? Half a dozen? A dozen? A hundred? There's over 6 billion people alive -right now-.

The love of money is just as useless of a response. Money is simply a tool to simplify trading so that, if you grow apples for instance, you don't have to find someone who grows greens AND needs apples in particular in order to get your greens, or someone who has access to drinking water AND needs apples in order to quench your thirst. Money is simply a universal conversion rate for the fruit of your labor.

Thus, if you say that the love of money is the root of all evil, you're saying that it's evil to love the fruit of your labor. Anyone who doesn't love the fruit of their labor is either in the wrong line of work or has no pride.

Personally, I accept that I am selfish. I help the people I care to help when I care to help them which, thankfully for the people in my life, is pretty often. Also, I -love- money. First off, I love the concept of it: I love that societies past were wise enough to come up with a system that allowed for people to provide highly specialized services that don't directly produce any physical product and -still- live well via that labor. I love that societies past came up with an economic system that saved us all insane amounts of time in terms of how much of it we have to spend simply fulfilling our own physical upkeep (cuz if we all had to farm and trade our wares at a bazaar, holy shit there goes all our free time).

I also love wealth. I love having it. I'd love to have more of it, and it has nothing to do with wanting to take it from others, or wanting them to have less of it. I simply love to be able to acquire what I want when I want it (the fun thing about that property is, again, it's something we all share. Everybody wants to be able to acquire or achieve what they want, when they want it, period. The only difference is in -what- is wanted). Also, the love of wealth is often spurred by what your philosophy would consider some level of selflessness. One of the things I love about having wealth is that, if someone I care about is in need, I have the means of helping them. Believing that we're all one and deferring the wealth to the world as a whole isn't going to cause the world to pay my mother's rent if she's short one month. If I got that money on hand, tho? Mom's got a roof over her head. In short, being the individual in control of the wealth allows one to channel that wealth toward the purposes that they consider worthy as opposed to standing idly by and letting the chips fall where they may. If you seek to better the world via any means that is realistically plausible, love of wealth is almost inevitable.

Personally, I say that the primary roots of evil (at least those ones that can reasonably be combatted) are dishonesty and the desire to subjugate one another. Even if your religion is true, history is populated by a lot more honest, live-and-let-live types than it is by people who've achieved the level of selflessness of Jesus or the Buddha. This leads me to believe that, even if true selflessness is possible, achieving a mindset of honesty and losing the desire to force everyone else to obey your values are sure as fuck a shorter route than messianic detachment.

Think about it, though. . . if the lovers of wealth only acquired said wealth via honest trade and didn't use it to subjugate the initiative of others, selfishness wouldn't be a problem.

Mind you, I'm not saying my fixes are particularly realistic, simply a higher-probability option. Dishonesty and subjugation are things society can realistically combat. Acts of dishonesty (theft, fraud, etc) can be punished and deterred, as can acts that subjugate the initiative of others (theft, murder, kidnapping, assault, etc) via the most basic of societal laws and standards. The life-view of every individual, on the other hand, isn't something that can be controlled at all. When humans decided to travel overseas, it was more realistic to build a vessel to deal with the realities of maritime travel than to wish for the continents to be closer together.

Lastly, minor point. You seem to misunderstand the basic premise of Libertarianism, which is individualism. Not only would Libertarianism not conflict with the existence of selfish individuals, it's actually a system that embraces and facilitates the selfishness of the individual. The whole idea of Libertarianism is that government should exert limited control over the people so that each individual has the liberty to pursue the values of their -own- conscience. Libertarianism -is- selfishness in action.

Please don't take that as a criticism of Libertarianism. Personally, I'm proud to say that I'm generally libertarian, and equally proud to say that I have accepted that I am a selfish individualist who stoutly refuses to adhere to any morals but my own, and who stoutly refuses to try and force you to adhere to mine.

I'll get to this in a bit. Thanks for the response, but a little long for right at the moment (at work).

No worries, I know it's long-winded. I'll be surprised if anybody even reads the entire thing lol. I just have a tendency to get overly expansive about philosophical questions that are this open-ended.

 

[thebrucebeat]

Any human behavior can be detrimental, when taken to an absurd extreme.

Claiming any one as the universal root of evil is just too simplistic for words.

That's completely fine if you believe that, however I am asserting there is just one root - the bi-product of the illusion of separateness (which is selfishness).

Perhaps can you provide an example of "a problem" where selfishness wasn't the root cause?

Maybe that would be an interesting place to start from.


.

Clearly you have not seen what happens when you crowd people together.

1 Lust does not come from selfishness.
2 Gluttony does not come from selfishness.
3 Greed does not come from selfishness.
4 Sloth does not come from selfishness.
5 Wrath does not come from selfishness.
6 Envy does not come from selfishness.
7 Pride does not come from selfishness.

Selfishness is like fairness, it's one of those words that be used in meaningless ways.

I could easily make the case that the basis of all of these is selfishness, but more commonly referred to as pridefulness.
How is pride possibly separated from selfishness?

 

[RKMBrown]

lust intransitive verb
: to have a strong sexual desire for someone
: to have a strong desire for something

Synonyms: ardor, concupiscence, eros, eroticism, horniness, itch, lustfulness, passion

Note: selfishness is not even mentioned as a synonym of lust.

self·ish adjective
: having or showing concern only for yourself and not for the needs or feelings of other people

Note: one can lust and still show concern, one can be lustful without being selfish about it.

More particularly lust does not have to have anything to do with selfishness.

Should I continue?

 

[thebrucebeat]

lust intransitive verb
: to have a strong sexual desire for someone
: to have a strong desire for something

Synonyms: ardor, concupiscence, eros, eroticism, horniness, itch, lustfulness, passion

Note: selfishness is not even mentioned as a synonym of lust.

self·ish adjective
: having or showing concern only for yourself and not for the needs or feelings of other people

Note: one can lust and still show concern, one can be lustful without being selfish about it.

More particularly lust does not have to have anything to do with selfishness.

Should I continue?

NO. Stop while you're losing!
No one said they were synonyms. The root of them can easily be connected.
Lust is the personal desire for gratification. You might show concern, but the root is your own need, not the need to satisfy the other person.

 

[RKMBrown]

pride noun
: a feeling that you respect yourself and deserve to be respected by other people
: a feeling that you are more important or better than other people
: a feeling of happiness that you get when you or someone you know does something good, difficult, etc.

Synonyms: ego, self-esteem, self-regard, self-respect

Reminder: selfishness - the act of having or showing concern only for yourself and not for the needs or feelings of other people

One can respect oneself and deserve to be respected by other people, without being selfish with regard to said pride.

One can have feeling that you are more important or better than other people without being selfish.

One can have a feeling of happiness that one gets when one or someone one knows does something good, difficult, etc, without being selfish about it.

Selfish is an adjective, like big, or fair, that one can add to anything. It is a relative term that can mean little to nothing and add little to nothing to any phrase. Thus, selfish is is confused by many as meaning just about anything their feeble minds (dig ;-) try to make it mean. Typically this happens when your brain is trying to fill in easier reasons for things than more complex reasons.

 

[thebrucebeat]

pride noun
: a feeling that you respect yourself and deserve to be respected by other people
: a feeling that you are more important or better than other people
: a feeling of happiness that you get when you or someone you know does something good, difficult, etc.

Synonyms: ego, self-esteem, self-regard, self-respect

Reminder: selfishness - the act of having or showing concern only for yourself and not for the needs or feelings of other people

One can respect oneself and deserve to be respected by other people, without being selfish with regard to said pride.

One can have feeling that you are more important or better than other people without being selfish.

One can have a feeling of happiness that one gets when one or someone one knows does something good, difficult, etc, without being selfish about it.

Selfish is an adjective, like big, or fair, that one can add to anything. It is a relative term that can mean little to nothing and add little to nothing to any phrase. Thus, selfish is is confused by many as meaning just about anything their feeble minds (dig ;-) try to make it mean. Typically this happens when your brain is trying to fill in easier reasons for things than more complex reasons.

Pridefulness is different from simple pride, right? Post that definition.
That is why the bible talks about it as much as almost anything else, right? It is the snare that traps almost everyone. Makes people make digs and that sort of thing.

 

[RKMBrown]

lust intransitive verb
: to have a strong sexual desire for someone
: to have a strong desire for something

Synonyms: ardor, concupiscence, eros, eroticism, horniness, itch, lustfulness, passion

Note: selfishness is not even mentioned as a synonym of lust.

self·ish adjective
: having or showing concern only for yourself and not for the needs or feelings of other people

Note: one can lust and still show concern, one can be lustful without being selfish about it.

More particularly lust does not have to have anything to do with selfishness.

Should I continue?

NO. Stop while you're losing!
No one said they were synonyms. The root of them can easily be connected.
Lust is the personal desire for gratification. You might show concern, but the root is your own need, not the need to satisfy the other person.

While your lust may be your personal desire for gratification, that is not the full definition of lust and may not be the reason or come even close to describing other peoples' lust.

Anything can be easily connected if you try hard enough. The OP declared that one requires the other, more particularly that one is the root of the other. The OP did not state that these evils may share some root in common with selfishness that can be easily connected, as you are stating.

 

[RKMBrown]

pride noun
: a feeling that you respect yourself and deserve to be respected by other people
: a feeling that you are more important or better than other people
: a feeling of happiness that you get when you or someone you know does something good, difficult, etc.

Synonyms: ego, self-esteem, self-regard, self-respect

Reminder: selfishness - the act of having or showing concern only for yourself and not for the needs or feelings of other people

One can respect oneself and deserve to be respected by other people, without being selfish with regard to said pride.

One can have feeling that you are more important or better than other people without being selfish.

One can have a feeling of happiness that one gets when one or someone one knows does something good, difficult, etc, without being selfish about it.

Selfish is an adjective, like big, or fair, that one can add to anything. It is a relative term that can mean little to nothing and add little to nothing to any phrase. Thus, selfish is is confused by many as meaning just about anything their feeble minds (dig ;-) try to make it mean. Typically this happens when your brain is trying to fill in easier reasons for things than more complex reasons.

Pridefulness is different from simple pride, right? Post that definition.
That is why the bible talks about it as much as almost anything else, right? It is the snare that traps almost everyone. Makes people make digs and that sort of thing.

Pridefulness

1:a reasonable or justifiable sense of one's worth or importance <beaming with understandable pridefulness, the physically challenged graduate accepted his college diploma>

Synonyms ego, pridefulness, self-esteem, self-regard, self-respect
Related Words aplomb, assurance, confidence, self-assurance, self-assuredness, self-confidence, self-pride, self-trust, self-worth; dignity, face, honor, prestige

2:an often unjustified feeling of being pleased with oneself or with one's situation or achievements <an inordinate amount of pridefulness for someone who has much to be modest about>

Synonyms amour propre, bighead, complacency, conceit, conceitedness, ego, egotism, pomposity, pompousness, pride, pridefulness, self-admiration, self-assumption, self-conceit, self-congratulation, self-esteem, self-glory, self-importance, self-love, self-opinion, self-satisfaction, smugness, swelled head, swellheadedness, vaingloriousness, vainglory, vainness, vanity

Related Words assurance, confidence, self-assurance, self-confidence; self-righteousness; arrogance, disdainfulness, haughtiness, imperiousness, lordliness, self-assertion, snobbishness, superciliousness, superiority; hubris, overconfidence, presumption; pretense (or pretence), pretension, pretentiousness; egoism, self-centeredness, selfishness; self-pride, self-respect



As stated, one can exhibit pridefulness, without being selfish about it. It is arguably self-centered but again one can be self-centered without being selfish.

For example, I may donate all of my money out of pridefulness and even self-rightiousness. Arguing that giving everything away is selfish because you plan to brag about not being selfish.. heh that's funny.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

lust intransitive verb
: to have a strong sexual desire for someone
: to have a strong desire for something

Synonyms: ardor, concupiscence, eros, eroticism, horniness, itch, lustfulness, passion

Note: selfishness is not even mentioned as a synonym of lust.

self·ish adjective
: having or showing concern only for yourself and not for the needs or feelings of other people

Note: one can lust and still show concern, one can be lustful without being selfish about it.

More particularly lust does not have to have anything to do with selfishness.

Should I continue?

— adj
1. chiefly concerned with one's own interest, advantage, etc, esp to the total exclusion of the interests of others
2. relating to or characterized by self-interest


See what I did there, vs what you did there?

You found a definition of selfishness that necessitates a disregard for others. I found two that do not.

Point is, selfishness does -not- have to include a disregard for others to qualify as selfishness.

Therefore, lust, born of the instinctive desire to satiate oneself physically, is -always- selfish.