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I would consider becoming a libertarian if I could just find a single case where a libertarian economy had worked.With your rant against statism and Keynesian economics, it sounds like you're embracing what us libertarians have said all along. Wonderful. Welcome to the light.
USA until about 1913. More poor became middle class and more middle class became rich than at any time in history.
Becoming a libertarian without that single factor would prove whomever became one to be an idiot. Which you, with your post, have again proven.
So instead we should jump on the central planner bandwagon. Yea, pass. You were saying something about being an idiot...
Believing that the US has ever been a libertarian economy, for instance.
As close as any has ever come. Phenomenally successful too.
Get thee a history book not written by a Progressive.
Libertarians do not concern themselves with poverty or working conditions. Never part of their consideration. As long as the corporations have no constraints, they are good. As long as the wealthy get more so, why worry about the working class. Not their concern.Believing that the US has ever been a libertarian economy, for instance.
As close as any has ever come. Phenomenally successful too.
Get thee a history book not written by a Progressive.
Jacob Riis maybe was a progressive but the photos of poverty in his book are evidence of wide spread poverty during a more "libertarian" time in America. Was Sinclair Lewis lying about poverty and working conditions in his books?
MY POV has never been well understood here at USMB, eflat.
that's mostly because this place is dominated by partisans and trolls, so ANY complex POV is lost in the noise of hyperpartisan clatter.
Note how at least one detractor of my thread decides that since I am speaking an unwanted TRUTH about the myth of St. Ronnie, I must therefore be a support of St, Obama?
See how their minds work?
To clueless partisans there is only two sides to every narrative...theirs and the STRAW MAN's they create out of ever other POV that they cannot (or refuse to) understand.
RR spent more money--took a greater share of the nations GDP than CARTER.
Now go ask a "self proclaiming neo-con about that fact.
They think he cut spending. They really do.,
Ah. More of the same from the great con, cf. He thinks reagan defeated the ussr version of communism. Poor guy. Never studied the subject, just believes that rr saying "tear down that wall" made the "communists" quake in their boots.Reagan: Defeated the USSR freeing hundreds of millions from the crushing, inhumane oppression of Communism and revitalized the US economy.
Not bad, not bad at all.
What was Ed saying?
Well, now, oldstyle, I would NEVER bother to suggest that I am intellectually superior to you. That would be as inconsiderate as suggesting such a thing to a mental institution resident. Why do such a thing to a poor ignorant dish washer. It is, as I have said, NOT YOUR FAULT. You believe in all sorts of things, I am sure. Probably think that other fanciful things besides successful libertarian economies exist, like unicorns. And that is ok, oldstyle. Because it is Not Your Fault. It is just bad luck.Hardly, me boy. Many disagree with me, and we can discuss the facts. Possibly agree to disagree. My best friend and I disagree about MANY things.
You have to earn the title of con tool. Con tool, from my standpoint, means that you get your information (or your "facts" in your mind) from bat shit crazy con web sites. You know, the sites funded by the libertarian nut cases you like so much.
So, it is nothing to worry about. You are simply ignorant. By your own choice. You prefer to believe what you want to believe. Which is a malady that has been scientifically studied in numerous studies. It is a really cool self perpetuating thing in which you believe what you want, read what supports what you want to believe, and believe it more. And, it makes you angry. Which you also like.
Which, of course, you prove in your posts. Like suggesting anyone is talking about libertarian governments. Which, if you think about it, is kind of an oxymoron. But then, thinking is not you strong point. Posting dogma is your strong point. But it is funny that you could suggest that we were discussing libertarian GOVERNMENT, and then suggesting that you have enough understanding about economics to criticize anyone's understanding of economic issues.
But really, me boy, it is ok. It is not your fault. You are part of that small percentage of people who need to be told what to do, where to go, and what to believe. Which makes you ignorant. It is a basic mental issue which is very hard for you to control, and which you actually do not want to control. Not your fault at all. Just plain bad luck.
LOL...God, you're an idiot...
All you post is "dogma"...most of your "knowledge" comes direct from Wikipedia...and then you come on here and declare yourself to be intellectually superior to others while posting drivel.
The sad thing is that I "do" have more understanding about economics than you...AND YOU CLAIM TO HAVE BEEN AN ECONOMICS MAJOR IN COLLEGE AS WELL AS TEACH THE SUBJECT AT THE COLLEGE LEVEL!!! I don't know how to break this to you, Sparky...but just about EVERYONE on this board is smarter than you when it come to the subject of economics. Whenever a discussion on that, does get complex you're in so far over your head it's not funny. Yet you keep coming back for more with your lectures about Libertarian economics that wouldn't pass muster in a grade school class.
And really, believing that you are smart is just part of the illness. All stupid people believe that they are very smart. Really, it is probably good for you. Ignorance and delusion are part of the mental defect from which you suffer. Really. It is not your fault.
And please, we all understand why you do not attempt to post economic thought. Because, of course, you believe that economic thought is simply cutting and pasting the drivel from right wing bat shit crazy con web sites. And we understand, doing so is really stretching your limited ability to reason. I mean, that whole copy a thought and post it thing is really about as far reaching as one can get, given your limited mental reasoning ability. And, please, we all try so hard not to laugh at you. Even when you get angry. Because we all understand that it is important for you to believe you are smart. And that you know something. We all want you to feel good about your poor ignorant state. And we all want you to remember, it is just plain bad luck. Not your fault at all.
Ah. More of the same from the great con, cf. He thinks reagan defeated the ussr version of communism. Poor guy. Never studied the subject, just believes that rr saying "tear down that wall" made the "communists" quake in their boots.Reagan: Defeated the USSR freeing hundreds of millions from the crushing, inhumane oppression of Communism and revitalized the US economy.
Not bad, not bad at all.
What was Ed saying?
Proof that ignorance is bliss.
Is totally unaware that the economy got better only after rr RAISED taxes 11 times, TRIPLED the national debt through stimulus spending, and passed on an economic problem for his successor that would be his undoing. Yup, old rr was an economic conservative. Sure he was.
Yes, indeed. I have seen your contributions over time. Including the constant ones against me, which I have disproven numerous times. Like this one you make for what, the 40th time by now. Disproven multiple times. Because, of course, I did not say that I taught an economic class as an undergraduate. As you well know. But you lie. Over and over and over. Sad, me boy. Too bad you can not actually think for yourself, Too bad you have no integrity. But then, that is just you. Thing is, as a con tool, you are only capable of ignorant personal attacks. Again, not your fault. Just plain bad luck me boy.Well, now, oldstyle, I would NEVER bother to suggest that I am intellectually superior to you. That would be as inconsiderate as suggesting such a thing to a mental institution resident. Why do such a thing to a poor ignorant dish washer. It is, as I have said, NOT YOUR FAULT. You believe in all sorts of things, I am sure. Probably think that other fanciful things besides successful libertarian economies exist, like unicorns. And that is ok, oldstyle. Because it is Not Your Fault. It is just bad luck.LOL...God, you're an idiot...
All you post is "dogma"...most of your "knowledge" comes direct from Wikipedia...and then you come on here and declare yourself to be intellectually superior to others while posting drivel.
The sad thing is that I "do" have more understanding about economics than you...AND YOU CLAIM TO HAVE BEEN AN ECONOMICS MAJOR IN COLLEGE AS WELL AS TEACH THE SUBJECT AT THE COLLEGE LEVEL!!! I don't know how to break this to you, Sparky...but just about EVERYONE on this board is smarter than you when it come to the subject of economics. Whenever a discussion on that, does get complex you're in so far over your head it's not funny. Yet you keep coming back for more with your lectures about Libertarian economics that wouldn't pass muster in a grade school class.
And really, believing that you are smart is just part of the illness. All stupid people believe that they are very smart. Really, it is probably good for you. Ignorance and delusion are part of the mental defect from which you suffer. Really. It is not your fault.
And please, we all understand why you do not attempt to post economic thought. Because, of course, you believe that economic thought is simply cutting and pasting the drivel from right wing bat shit crazy con web sites. And we understand, doing so is really stretching your limited ability to reason. I mean, that whole copy a thought and post it thing is really about as far reaching as one can get, given your limited mental reasoning ability. And, please, we all try so hard not to laugh at you. Even when you get angry. Because we all understand that it is important for you to believe you are smart. And that you know something. We all want you to feel good about your poor ignorant state. And we all want you to remember, it is just plain bad luck. Not your fault at all.
I'm always amused by your constant whining about "personal attacks" (to you a personal attack is when someone points out that one of your claims, like teaching college level economics as an undergrad, is laughable given your knowledge of the subject) while you accuse others of being mentally defective or (gasp!) a dishwasher. That you don't see the double standard in what you do simply underscores how clueless you truly are.
Take a good hard look at what others contribute to the discussion here (both from the progressive viewpoint or from the conservative view point) and then compare it to what YOU contribute. Even though I may not agree with many of the things that progressives advocate here, I give them credit for presenting their viewpoint with thoughtful posts. I may not think they are right but I can understand the point they are making. You, on the other hand seldom post something "thoughtful". Your posts are filled with nonsense about "cons" and "dogma" which puts you in the same category as the Francos and Deanies of this board. If that's what you're looking for then congratulations...you've achieved your objective!
Of course, it did, me poor ignorant con tool. Perhaps you have an impartial sourse for your statement??? Nah, of course not.Ah. More of the same from the great con, cf. He thinks reagan defeated the ussr version of communism. Poor guy. Never studied the subject, just believes that rr saying "tear down that wall" made the "communists" quake in their boots.Reagan: Defeated the USSR freeing hundreds of millions from the crushing, inhumane oppression of Communism and revitalized the US economy.
Not bad, not bad at all.
What was Ed saying?
Proof that ignorance is bliss.
Is totally unaware that the economy got better only after rr RAISED taxes 11 times, TRIPLED the national debt through stimulus spending, and passed on an economic problem for his successor that would be his undoing. Yup, old rr was an economic conservative. Sure he was.
Now you're going to lecture about history? If you actually DID know anything about European history you'd know that Reagan's "Tear down this wall!" speech did in fact make the communists "quake in their boots". The notion that Soviet policies were so bad that they had to build a wall to keep their own people from fleeing is the kind of thing that eventually topples governments. Reagan standing at the Brandenburg Gate and pointing that obvious fact out is the kind of thing that put a glaring spotlight on the failures of Soviet communism.
Ah. More of the same from the great con, cf. He thinks reagan defeated the ussr version of communism. Poor guy. Never studied the subject, just believes that rr saying "tear down that wall" made the "communists" quake in their boots.Reagan: Defeated the USSR freeing hundreds of millions from the crushing, inhumane oppression of Communism and revitalized the US economy.
Not bad, not bad at all.
What was Ed saying?
Proof that ignorance is bliss.
Is totally unaware that the economy got better only after rr RAISED taxes 11 times, TRIPLED the national debt through stimulus spending, and passed on an economic problem for his successor that would be his undoing. Yup, old rr was an economic conservative. Sure he was.
Now you're going to lecture about history? If you actually DID know anything about European history you'd know that Reagan's "Tear down this wall!" speech did in fact make the communists "quake in their boots". The notion that Soviet policies were so bad that they had to build a wall to keep their own people from fleeing is the kind of thing that eventually topples governments. Reagan standing at the Brandenburg Gate and pointing that obvious fact out is the kind of thing that put a glaring spotlight on the failures of Soviet communism.
So you like to believe. I know of no single progressive that does not know exactly how bad the ussr administration and economics were. Only foolish, illiterate don tools believe what you believe. Again, me boy, you are proving my statements. You are incapable of actual rational thought.Ah. More of the same from the great con, cf. He thinks reagan defeated the ussr version of communism. Poor guy. Never studied the subject, just believes that rr saying "tear down that wall" made the "communists" quake in their boots.
Proof that ignorance is bliss.
Is totally unaware that the economy got better only after rr RAISED taxes 11 times, TRIPLED the national debt through stimulus spending, and passed on an economic problem for his successor that would be his undoing. Yup, old rr was an economic conservative. Sure he was.
Now you're going to lecture about history? If you actually DID know anything about European history you'd know that Reagan's "Tear down this wall!" speech did in fact make the communists "quake in their boots". The notion that Soviet policies were so bad that they had to build a wall to keep their own people from fleeing is the kind of thing that eventually topples governments. Reagan standing at the Brandenburg Gate and pointing that obvious fact out is the kind of thing that put a glaring spotlight on the failures of Soviet communism.
The "American" Left never quite grasps that communism sucked so badly they built walls to keep people IN
communism like libertarianism, never has had and never will have a chance to succeed.
Wow, ed. We are so proud of you. You know that libertarianism and communism are diametrically opposed (look up any words you have problems with). We all know that, me poor ignorant boy. The point that you missed is that neither works.communism like libertarianism, never has had and never will have a chance to succeed.
dear, can you be that slow. Communism involves transfer of all ownership to the state and then to the people as the state disappears. No one can imagine that happening or would dare try to make it happen, but
libertarianism simply involves shrinking the government more and more as prosperity and freedom increases so it is very very incremental, possible, feasible, and self-perpetuating.
Still over your head?
The point that you missed is that neither works.
You are avoiding your problem, me boy. You are following an economic policy that does not work.
I did not say anything that is not truth.
Which is why you can not find an actual libertarian economy that worked for any period of time.
You insist that the us is that country, up till the early 1900's. Problem is, that is your opinion. And you have no rational support. No link.
Now, the reason you can not find a link from an impartial source backing you up is interesting
Must be lousy following an economic theory that never lasts for any length of time
The point that you missed is that neither works.
why would you say libertarianism doesn't work when America grew to be the greatest country in human history with a tiny tiny government? And lets not forget China just eliminated 40% of world poverty by shrinking its government more and more.
[/QUOTE]QUOTE]The roots of socialism in America can be traced to the arrival of German immigrants in the 1850s when Marxian socialist unions began, such as the National Typographic Union in 1852, United Hatters of 1856, and Iron Moulders` Union of North America in 1859. Theodore H. White, author of Fire in the Ashes: Europe in Mid-Century (1953) wrote, "Socialism is the belief and the hope that by proper use of government power, men can be rescued from their helplessness in the wild cycling cruelty of depression and boom."
Socialism in America
Again, your opinion. Not substantiated by a single non partial source. You loose again.
All you have to do is find a couple sites backing you up, me boy. Not my fault that you can not. Saying the us was libertarian is simply a statement from bat shit crazy con web sites.The point that you missed is that neither works.
why would you say libertarianism doesn't work when America grew to be the greatest country in human history with a tiny tiny government? And lets not forget China just eliminated 40% of world poverty by shrinking its government more and more.
I don't think it's interested in facts.
Fred Koch founded the John Birch Society in 1958. Ed Griffin was educated there. He later wrote a famous book, "The Creature of Jekyll Island". This was a rehash of Eustace Mullins' brilliant 'Secrets of the Federal Reserve', with one exception: it left out all Mullins' analysis of the Gold Standard as a Banker operation and how Britain's demand for taxes paid in Gold were the cause of the war of Independence. Instead it called for the reinstatement of a Gold Standard. This is a key part of the story OF how Austrian Economics managed to take over the 'Truth Movement'.
Koch's son Charles Koch founded the CATO Institute, together with Murray Rothbard. The CATO Institute remains to this day a leading Libertarian outlet. - See more at: Proof Libertarianism is an Illuminati Ploy - henrymakow.com
Of course, it did, me poor ignorant con tool. Perhaps you have an impartial sourse for your statement??? Nah, of course not.Ah. More of the same from the great con, cf. He thinks reagan defeated the ussr version of communism. Poor guy. Never studied the subject, just believes that rr saying "tear down that wall" made the "communists" quake in their boots.
Proof that ignorance is bliss.
Is totally unaware that the economy got better only after rr RAISED taxes 11 times, TRIPLED the national debt through stimulus spending, and passed on an economic problem for his successor that would be his undoing. Yup, old rr was an economic conservative. Sure he was.
Now you're going to lecture about history? If you actually DID know anything about European history you'd know that Reagan's "Tear down this wall!" speech did in fact make the communists "quake in their boots". The notion that Soviet policies were so bad that they had to build a wall to keep their own people from fleeing is the kind of thing that eventually topples governments. Reagan standing at the Brandenburg Gate and pointing that obvious fact out is the kind of thing that put a glaring spotlight on the failures of Soviet communism.
But, cool thing is, you always prove exactly what I say. I say it happens, you come along and prove the fact. Funny.
Again, it is ok. As a con tool, you simply believe what the bat shit crazy con sites tell you. Because that is what you do. You need, as con tools do, to be told what to believe and what to say and what to do. Makes life so much easier. No need to actually study the subject.
Again, not your fault. Just plain bad luck.
