The way to keep burkini's off the beaches

[Mindful]

Nadiya did win the Bakeoff.

So what?

 

[Mindful]

I think there is a similar problem in the US, plus, children born to women with vit D deficiency are at increased risk, of course.


Rickets soar as children stay indoors: Number diagnosed with disease quadruples in last ten years

• New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions
• Ten years earlier the figure was just 190
• The disease, which causes brittle bones and deformities, was common in 19th century Britain

By DAILY MAIL REPORTER

PUBLISHED: 02:02, 22 January 2014 | UPDATED: 02:03, 22 January 2014

+2
New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions for children suffering from rickets

The number of children suffering from rickets – once associated with Victorian poverty – is on the rise, with a fourfold increase in sufferers in the last ten years.

New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions for children suffering from the condition which is caused by a lack of Vitamin D in the financial year 2012-13.

Ten years earlier the figure was just 190.

Some experts fear that parents obsessing about protecting their children from sunlight, which boosts the body’s level of the key vitamin, has led to the rise...

Rickets soar as children stay indoors

Some interesting data here.

Office of Dietary Supplements - Vitamin D

Eat more VitD.

Greg

I heard that despite sun exposure, you can still be deficient in it.

Something to do with the body not being able to absorb sunlight efficiently.

 

[skye]

More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!

What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!

Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye. So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach? Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini. This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach. Ever thought of that?

You miss the point.

The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.

Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.

Religions "ordain" many things. Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?

I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

 

[StLucieBengal]

How about a Boxini?

For the Islamic thinking beach babe.

Infidel .... Shows too much skin for the prophet.

This much exposed skin could incite a Muslim to rape.

 

[Tilly]

I think there is a similar problem in the US, plus, children born to women with vit D deficiency are at increased risk, of course.


Rickets soar as children stay indoors: Number diagnosed with disease quadruples in last ten years

• New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions
• Ten years earlier the figure was just 190
• The disease, which causes brittle bones and deformities, was common in 19th century Britain

By DAILY MAIL REPORTER

PUBLISHED: 02:02, 22 January 2014 | UPDATED: 02:03, 22 January 2014

+2
New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions for children suffering from rickets

The number of children suffering from rickets – once associated with Victorian poverty – is on the rise, with a fourfold increase in sufferers in the last ten years.

New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions for children suffering from the condition which is caused by a lack of Vitamin D in the financial year 2012-13.

Ten years earlier the figure was just 190.

Some experts fear that parents obsessing about protecting their children from sunlight, which boosts the body’s level of the key vitamin, has led to the rise...

Rickets soar as children stay indoors

Some interesting data here.

Office of Dietary Supplements - Vitamin D

Eat more VitD.

Greg

You cannot get enough vit D from food if you have a deficiency.

 

[StLucieBengal]

I'm old enough to remember when we were NOT allowed to wear pants to school. And then...they allowed "pantsuits" - but not trousers or jeans (and talk about fugly). I'll be damned if I'm going to allow anyone to tell me what I can or can't wear.

Well if you wish to talk fashion we can go there in another thread. Personally when women stopped dressing as women is where we lost the plot.

Too bad we don't see women wearing a dress much anymore. Now it's all super casual to the point that we see pajama pants at the supermarket.

Women are beautiful specimens and it's a shame they waste that beauty by dressing like a man or a hobo.

 

[Zander]

Don't ban the burkhini, ban the people that wear them.

 

[Tilly]

Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye. So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach? Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini. This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach. Ever thought of that?

You miss the point.

The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.

Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.

Religions "ordain" many things. Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?

I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.

 

[StLucieBengal]

You miss the point.

The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.

Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.

Religions "ordain" many things. Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?

I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.

Based on recent history France Should be the toughest country on Islam.

Reasonable they banned the Burkini. They should also ban the burqa and enforce the law that doesn't allow praying in the streets.

 

[Tilly]

Religions "ordain" many things. Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?

I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.

Based on recent history France Should be the toughest country on Islam.

Reasonable they banned the Burkini. They should also ban the burqa and enforce the law that doesn't allow praying in the streets.

They have banned all face coverings in public places, in 2009 I think.
Both Sarkozy and the Front National have now promised that the burkini will be banned nationally, even if they have to alter the constitution to do so. Since the Left being re-elected is looking more unlikely every day, unless something totally unpredictable happens, there will be a right wing gvmnt in France next year, and the burkini will go the way of the burka and niqab in France. Vive La France

 

[Tilly]

You mean they girl in the swimwear designed to wear when you surf?

If the Muslims wanna dress that way then so be it. I just don't want to see this other nonsense.

If you want to live In the west then Take your 7th century bs elsewhere . Leave it at home or don't come.

So you you think this burkini ban is wrong then?

No. The Burkini ban is only temporary and was on direct result from the Muslims waging war on France. Maybe these supposed good Muslims can denounce the oppressive and violent nature of their religion.

Or maybe just go to the beach like a normal person and show everyone that Muslims can be just like anyone else. At the beach not dressed as a black ghost

Or they could segregate beaches, as in Tel Aviv.

So Jews and Muslims, who wish to cover more parts of their body will have to go special beaches?

This gets weirder and weirder. Such a free country....for women....

How has this topic got on to Jews?

Doesn't it always? ;-)

 

[Tilly]

A French woman's perspective:


Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on

• MURIEL DEMARCUS

30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM

The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August. Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!

According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.

First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances. Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.

Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.

I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".

Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?

Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever. Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.

Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.

In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.

In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.

Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on

 

[StLucieBengal]

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.

Based on recent history France Should be the toughest country on Islam.

Reasonable they banned the Burkini. They should also ban the burqa and enforce the law that doesn't allow praying in the streets.

They have banned all face coverings in public places, in 2009 I think.
Both Sarkozy and the Front National have now promised that the burkini will be banned nationally, even if they have to alter the constitution to do so. Since the Left being re-elected is looking more unlikely every day, unless something totally unpredictable happens, there will be a right wing gvmnt in France next year, and the burkini will go the way of the burka and niqab in France. Vive La France

If that's the case then look for them to have a referendum on the EU as well. As well as a currency ref.

The French future is so bright they gotta wear shades.

 

[Coyote]

Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye. So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach? Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini. This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach. Ever thought of that?

You miss the point.

The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.

Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.

Religions "ordain" many things. Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?

I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.

When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.

I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.

"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.

 

[skye]

Coyote says

"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
"


What do you mean by that

 

[skye]

You miss the point.

The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.

Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.

Religions "ordain" many things. Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?

I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.

When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.

I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.

"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.

I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.

Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and even defiance caused by wearing them.

It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?

If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled to do so and more power to them! There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.

It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.

She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.

You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have imagine in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.

Why don't you go over to an Arab country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.

The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.

If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate and appropriate.




By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.

 

[Coyote]

You miss the point.

The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.

Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.

Religions "ordain" many things. Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?

I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.

You are being an idiot, as usual. Its about free choice. No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it. It's a free country. In theory. That 6% who support it can wear it. No one else has to

Religions "ordain" many things. Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?

I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.

When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.

I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.

"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.

I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.

Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and even defiance caused by wearing them.

It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?

If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled to do so and more power to them! There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.

It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.

She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.

You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have imagine in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.

Why don't you go over to an Arab country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.

The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.

If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate and appropriate.




By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.

The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.

We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.

Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?

So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop? What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it? Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?

You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.

 

[skye]

You miss the point.

The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.

Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.

Religions "ordain" many things. Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?

I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.

When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.

I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.

"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.

What do you mean by this last phrase in your post above...where you say I am channeling "Alex" in this post?

I have the right to know what you mean by that ridiculous phrase. You lost me there. Ok?

 

[Coyote]

Religions "ordain" many things. Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?

I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.

When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.

I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.

"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.

What do you mean by this last phrase in your post above...where you say I am channeling "Alex" in this post?

I have the right to know what you mean by that ridiculous phrase. You lost me there. Ok?

You sounded like the way Alex argues.

 

[skye]

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.

When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.

I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.

"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.

What do you mean by this last phrase in your post above...where you say I am channeling "Alex" in this post?

I have the right to know what you mean by that ridiculous phrase. You lost me there. Ok?

You sounded like the way Alex argues.

Oh ok.

that wasn't so hard now...was it?

I had to ask you three times.....but ...whewwwww......we finally got there.