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"Women are not allowed to use public swimming pools available to men and can only swim in private ones or female-only gyms and spas. Reuters editor Arlene Getz describes her experience of trying to use the gym and pool at an upmarket Riyadh hotel: "As a woman, I wasn't even allowed to look at them ('there are men in swimsuits there,' a hotel staffer told me with horror) - let alone use them."Some people sunburn easily. Putting a bag over 90% of your body works better than sun block, I suppose. Why bother going to the beach? Why not just a hot bath alone? Ok. I have never seen anyone in a burkini. It defeats the purpose. So, do NON Muslim women get to swim in bikinis in Saudi Arabia? Or are non Muslims even allow questioning sharia law in a Muslim country?
Sunbathing in a burkini.
there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
.
Don't worry -- your role is safe from competition.
Your arguments strike me as much akin to those of pedophiles when it comes to their having sex with children, though. Now, I realize you don't really oppose that, either, but pedophiles also argue that it is the child's choice -- actually empowering to them just as you argue in cases of women under the yoke of Islam. You see, if pedophiles can start grooming children at a young enough age, they come to accept it as normal and by the time they are seven or eight, they will actually claim it is their choice. Similarly, in these Islamic cultures you love so much, girls are conditioned from a very young age -- groomed for their role just as thoroughly as the pedophiles groom children for sex. You do not worry about this exploitation, of course, since you are simply looking for an opportunity to call people a bigot or an Islamophobe or a racist since that makes you feel good about yourself, but you are propping up an entire system of degradation here.
Calling these symbols of female subservience a "choice" is simply one of those ruses you use time and time again to invert the true nature of what you actually support. A women who has been groomed from the time she was a child to say it is her "choice" is no different than an 8 year old saying her having sex with a 42 year old man is hers. The same type of grooming is involved.
She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.
The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.
This is a different topic entirely.
You are being an idiot, as usual. Its about free choice. No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it. It's a free country. In theory. That 6% who support it can wear it. No one else has to
Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.
I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.
Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and even defiance caused by wearing them.
It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?
If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled to do so and more power to them! There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.
It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.
She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.
You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have imagine in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.
Why don't you go over to an Arab country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.
The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.
If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate and appropriate.
By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.
The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.
We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.
Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?
So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop? What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it? Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?
You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.
I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country. Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security. In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach. Who cares what they wear?
I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
I don't agree with anything you say and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
.
Don't worry -- your role is safe from competition.
Your arguments strike me as much akin to those of pedophiles when it comes to their having sex with children, though. Now, I realize you don't really oppose that, either, but pedophiles also argue that it is the child's choice -- actually empowering to them just as you argue in cases of women under the yoke of Islam. You see, if pedophiles can start grooming children at a young enough age, they come to accept it as normal and by the time they are seven or eight, they will actually claim it is their choice. Similarly, in these Islamic cultures you love so much, girls are conditioned from a very young age -- groomed for their role just as thoroughly as the pedophiles groom children for sex. You do not worry about this exploitation, of course, since you are simply looking for an opportunity to call people a bigot or an Islamophobe or a racist since that makes you feel good about yourself, but you are propping up an entire system of degradation here.
Calling these symbols of female subservience a "choice" is simply one of those ruses you use time and time again to invert the true nature of what you actually support. A women who has been groomed from the time she was a child to say it is her "choice" is no different than an 8 year old saying her having sex with a 42 year old man is hers. The same type of grooming is invo
Well, it isn't their culture. If the French culture says you can't wear this outfit, we don't find it acceptable, then that's what you adhere to. I have lived in far more conservative Muslim countries than Turkey and I and other Western women are expected to conform to a certain level of modesty in public dress. We are not onlyy expected to, we are required to. Now, for me, an older woman, it is not really an issue, but young women simply cannot wear the kind of clothing, like mini skirts or tank tops, for instance, they would wear in the WestI think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.
Greg
Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach. And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.
The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women
There is a lot of partial nudity on the beaches of France, especially along the Mediterranean. Many women go topless. I wonder that conservative Muslim women would be comfortable in such an atmosphere. I wonder why they would even want to be there.
I lived for 2 years in Turkey. I traveled around Turkey with Muslim women. They go to the beach and wear bikinis, older women may wear one piece suits. No one felt this was an offense to modesty. It is not Islam that dictates something like the burkini. It is oppressive cultural attitudes.
Agree, it's cultural attitudes - but, who has the right to force them to where something they feel is dreadfully imodest? Shouldn't it be her choice?
I find it extremelyy hypocritical that the Muslim women get so bent out of shape being required to abstain from certain dress when they are in the West, but expect Western women to adhere to their standards in Muslim countries.
This is where i am at... Our women can't wear normal clothes over there so why on earth should we bend over backwards for their nonsense.
If our women need to put on a scarf and cover up all skin then when they Muslims come to the west they can wear tank tops and shorts. And if it's that big of an issue for them then they can just not come. Just as we can not go there if we don't wanna respect their ways.
Religions "ordain" many things. Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
Since when are we at war with Judaism?
Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.
Who forced you to wear a burkini?
It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
Geez. So much for freedom.
Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.
Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.
This is a different topic entirely.
Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.
I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."
The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.
Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.
As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.
If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.
Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.
there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
.
Don't worry -- your role is safe from competition.
Your arguments strike me as much akin to those of pedophiles when it comes to their having sex with children, though. Now, I realize you don't really oppose that, either, but pedophiles also argue that it is the child's choice -- actually empowering to them just as you argue in cases of women under the yoke of Islam. You see, if pedophiles can start grooming children at a young enough age, they come to accept it as normal and by the time they are seven or eight, they will actually claim it is their choice. Similarly, in these Islamic cultures you love so much, girls are conditioned from a very young age -- groomed for their role just as thoroughly as the pedophiles groom children for sex. You do not worry about this exploitation, of course, since you are simply looking for an opportunity to call people a bigot or an Islamophobe or a racist since that makes you feel good about yourself, but you are propping up an entire system of degradation here.
Calling these symbols of female subservience a "choice" is simply one of those ruses you use time and time again to invert the true nature of what you actually support. A women who has been groomed from the time she was a child to say it is her "choice" is no different than an 8 year old saying her having sex with a 42 year old man is hers. The same type of grooming is involved.
Fantastic post.
That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
Since when are we at war with Judaism?
Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.
Who forced you to wear a burkini?
It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
Geez. So much for freedom.
Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.
Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.
This is a different topic entirely.
Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.
I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."
The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.
Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.
As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.
If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.
Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.
My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?
If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.
My posts make perfect sense. You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional. The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused. There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.
At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.
That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
Who forced you to wear a burkini?
So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
Geez. So much for freedom.
Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.
Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.
This is a different topic entirely.
Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.
I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."
The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.
Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.
As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.
If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.
Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.
My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?
If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.
My posts make perfect sense. You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional. The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused. There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.
At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.
She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.
You are being an idiot, as usual. Its about free choice. No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it. It's a free country. In theory. That 6% who support it can wear it. No one else has to
I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.
Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and even defiance caused by wearing them.
It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?
If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled to do so and more power to them! There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.
It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.
She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.
You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have imagine in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.
Why don't you go over to an Arab country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.
The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.
If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate and appropriate.
By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.
The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.
We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.
Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?
So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop? What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it? Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?
You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.
I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country. Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security. In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach. Who cares what they wear?
I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
I don't agree with anything you say and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly. When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.
You are being an idiot, as usual. Its about free choice. No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it. It's a free country. In theory. That 6% who support it can wear it. No one else has to
I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.
Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and even defiance caused by wearing them.
It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?
If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled to do so and more power to them! There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.
It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.
She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.
You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have imagine in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.
Why don't you go over to an Arab country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.
The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.
If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate and appropriate.
By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.
The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.
We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.
Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?
So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop? What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it? Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?
You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.
I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country. Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security. In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach. Who cares what they wear?
I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
I don't agree with anything you say and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly. When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.
Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.
This is a different topic entirely.
Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.
I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."
The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.
Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.
As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.
If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.
Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.
My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?
If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.
My posts make perfect sense. You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional. The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused. There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.
At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.
So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional. And yet you still support it.
Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?
You are being an idiot, as usual. Its about free choice. No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it. It's a free country. In theory. That 6% who support it can wear it. No one else has to
The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.
We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.
Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?
So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop? What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it? Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?
You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.
I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country. Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security. In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach. Who cares what they wear?
I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
I don't agree with anything you say and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly. When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
Yes I do. As long as the violator was given the opportunity to either take off her burqa or leave the beach.
I doubt the police just walked up and tried to strip her. I am sure she gave some Muslim bs and wasn't friendly to the police.
I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country. Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security. In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach. Who cares what they wear?
I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
I don't agree with anything you say and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly. When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
Yes I do. As long as the violator was given the opportunity to either take off her burqa or leave the beach.
I doubt the police just walked up and tried to strip her. I am sure she gave some Muslim bs and wasn't friendly to the police.
She looked very intimidated. If they forced a Jewish woman to do the same (Orthodox Jews have very similar rules on modesty and women) - would you accuse her of giving some "Jewish bs" and not being friendly to the police or would you be appropriately outraged at this? How about a Mennonite woman? (though I doubt there are any in France). There are however traditional Muslims and Orthodox Jews.
I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country. Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security. In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach. Who cares what they wear?
I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
I don't agree with anything you say and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly. When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
Yes I do. As long as the violator was given the opportunity to either take off her burqa or leave the beach.
I doubt the police just walked up and tried to strip her. I am sure she gave some Muslim bs and wasn't friendly to the police.
She looked very intimidated. If they forced a Jewish woman to do the same (Orthodox Jews have very similar rules on modesty and women) - would you accuse her of giving some "Jewish bs" and not being friendly to the police or would you be appropriately outraged at this? How about a Mennonite woman? (though I doubt there are any in France). There are however traditional Muslims and Orthodox Jews.
That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.
I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."
The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.
Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.
As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.
If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.
Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.
My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?
If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.
My posts make perfect sense. You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional. The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused. There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.
At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.
So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional. And yet you still support it.
Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?
How can a temporary ban be a law? And it's only been flipped in 1 out of 31 cities.
Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country. Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security. In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach. Who cares what they wear?
I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
I don't agree with anything you say and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly. When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
Yes I do. As long as the violator was given the opportunity to either take off her burqa or leave the beach.
I doubt the police just walked up and tried to strip her. I am sure she gave some Muslim bs and wasn't friendly to the police.
She looked very intimidated. If they forced a Jewish woman to do the same (Orthodox Jews have very similar rules on modesty and women) - would you accuse her of giving some "Jewish bs" and not being friendly to the police or would you be appropriately outraged at this? How about a Mennonite woman? (though I doubt there are any in France). There are however traditional Muslims and Orthodox Jews.
well here you go comparing Muslims and Jews again lol.
Jews have never went on a massive global killing and rape spree.
Compare apples to apples please.
Btw Jewish dress isn't even in the same realm as Muslim dress.
