The way to keep burkini's off the beaches

[skye]

Religions "ordain" many things. Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?

I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.

You are being an idiot, as usual. Its about free choice. No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it. It's a free country. In theory. That 6% who support it can wear it. No one else has to

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.

When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.

I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.

"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.

I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.

Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and even defiance caused by wearing them.

It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?

If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled to do so and more power to them! There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.

It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.

She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.

You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have imagine in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.

Why don't you go over to an Arab country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.

The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.

If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate and appropriate.




By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.

The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.

We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.

Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?

So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop? What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it? Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?

You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.

I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.

But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.

Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.

 

[StLucieBengal]

Do women prefer their bodies covered or are they just afraid of what will happen under Islam?

 

[StLucieBengal]

Is this the way anyone thinks women should be treated?

Warning Graphic video

 

[gtopa1]

A French woman's perspective:


Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on

• MURIEL DEMARCUS

30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM

The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August. Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!

According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.

First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances. Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.

Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.

I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".

Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?

Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever. Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.

Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.

In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.

In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.

Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on

because it will help Australia's balance of trade??

Greg

 

[Tilly]

Conspicuous displays of religion are considered divisive in France.


...The government’s defence of the burkini ban rests on worries about religious tension and public order after recent terrorist attacks, coupled with two underlying principles. The first is laïcité, a strict form of secularism enshrined by law in 1905 after a struggle against authoritarian Catholicism. This principle is supposed to keep religion out of public life, and has been the basis of previous French bans: on the headscarf (and other “conspicuous” religious symbols, including the Jewish kippah and oversized crucifixes) in state schools (in 2004), and the face-covering niqab in all public places (in 2010).

The other principle is women’s equality. It may appear bizarre, or frivolous, to argue that women should bare more flesh. But many on the French left in particular regard the need to protect women from a male-imposed doctrine as being at stake—and are willing to put it even before liberty, another founding value of republican France. The logic of the burkini, says Laurence Rossignol, the Socialist women’s minister, is to “hide women’s bodies in order better to control them”.

....They may note that in 2014 the European Court of Human Rights upheld France’s burqa ban. What outsiders fail to understand, the French argue, is that such body wear is not just a casual choice but part of an attempt by political Islamism to win recruits and test the resilience of the French republic. Mr Valls dismisses as naive those who see it as being no different than a wetsuit. The burkini, he says, is part of a “political project”, and complacency plays into the hands of Islamists....

http://www.economist.com/blogs/econ...de&spv=xm&ah=9d7f7ab945510a56fa6d37c30b6f1709

 

[StLucieBengal]

If you like ham on your pizza .... That puts you in line for a beating and for Muslims to not only assault but also humiliate your woman.

Couple Brutally Attacked For Ordering Ham On Their Pizza

Couple Brutally Attacked For Ordering Ham On Their Pizza

Two men who attacked a young couple for eating a pizza topped with ham have been sentenced to 18 months in prison.

Youness Boussaid and Fatah Bouzid, both 27, launched a brutal attack on the pair after warning them they would “go to hell” because the pizza they were eating contained ham.

The victims left Le Mix Bar, a nightclub in Cambrésis, France, where they had spent the evening, and ordered pizza from a nearby food vendor. They were approached by Boussaid and Bouzid soon after, who offered the young couple cocaine.

Noticing ham on the pizza, the two Arabs told the pair they would “go to hell” for eating it. Islam forbids the consumption of meat from pigs.

Seeking to humiliate the woman, the assailants caressed her blonde hair and forced fingers into her nose, which caused her to fall and lose consciousness. When her companion tried to protect her, the two Arabs began to beat the young man before security staff from Le Mix Bar intervened.

Boussaid and Bouzid then fled in a German sedan rented in Belgium, whose registration plate led to the men being identified after a long police investigation.

The two men were identified by the pizza chef, the victims, and another witness, and photos certified their presence at the scene yet the two men denied all the facts in court. The pair were sentenced to a year and six months in prison, and ordered to each pay €1,500 in damages.

In June, Muslims attackeda waitress in Nice after seeing her serve alcohol during Ramadan, leaving the woman with large facial haematoma.

In the same Nice neighbourhood, three men were given suspended sentences for repeatedly threatening, then physically assaulting, a Muslim baker they accused of being un-Islamic for serving ham sandwiches and alcohol at his shop.

The Socialist Party government in France appears to be turning a blind eye to the growing problem of members of their Muslim minority holding non-Muslims and their lifestyles in contempt.

Instead, they launched a €100 million campaign against “populism” earlier this year in an attempt to stop people from voting for the anti mass-migration Front National.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Some people seem to think that removing woman's choice on what to wear swimming is freeing her from "oppression".

Allowing her choice = oppression
Forcing her to wear a revealing swim suit = freedom

If a woman chooses to be a homemaker, is she oppressed?
If she is banned from being a homemaker and forced to work...is she free?

When a battered woman chooses to stay with her abuser is she oppressed?

You are comparing apples to oranges

Why, in your world, can't a woman choose to cover up at the beach?

Is it a choice when you are compelled at the threat of mental or physical violence?

Of course not.
How do you know that a woman, lying on the beach, who is covered up has been forced to wear that clothing?

Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.

My mother showns little or no skin at the beach.

 

[ChrisL]

If they aren't trying to force others to dress as they are dressing, then I don't see how this is a problem for anyone else.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I'm old enough to remember when we were NOT allowed to wear pants to school. And then...they allowed "pantsuits" - but not trousers or jeans (and talk about fugly). I'll be damned if I'm going to allow anyone to tell me what I can or can't wear.

Well if you wish to talk fashion we can go there in another thread. Personally when women stopped dressing as women is where we lost the plot.

Too bad we don't see women wearing a dress much anymore. Now it's all super casual to the point that we see pajama pants at the supermarket.

Women are beautiful specimens and it's a shame they waste that beauty by dressing like a man or a hobo.

Yoga pants are a wonderful thing........

 

[Esmeralda]

None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.

Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims

Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.

Does it apply to men as well?

Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.

I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.

No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?

I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.

Greg

Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach. And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.

The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women

There is a lot of partial nudity on the beaches of France, especially along the Mediterranean. Many women go topless. I wonder that conservative Muslim women would be comfortable in such an atmosphere. I wonder why they would even want to be there.

I lived for 2 years in Turkey. I traveled around Turkey with Muslim women. They go to the beach and wear bikinis, older women may wear one piece suits. No one felt this was an offense to modesty. It is not Islam that dictates something like the burkini. It is oppressive cultural attitudes.

 

[Coyote]

Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.

Does it apply to men as well?

Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.

I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.

No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?

I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.

Greg

Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach. And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.

The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women

There is a lot of partial nudity on the beaches of France, especially along the Mediterranean. Many women go topless. I wonder that conservative Muslim women would be comfortable in such an atmosphere. I wonder why they would even want to be there.

I lived for 2 years in Turkey. I traveled around Turkey with Muslim women. They go to the beach and wear bikinis, older women may wear one piece suits. No one felt this was an offense to modesty. It is not Islam that dictates something like the burkini. It is oppressive cultural attitudes.

Agree, it's cultural attitudes - but, who has the right to force them to where something they feel is dreadfully imodest? Shouldn't it be her choice?

 

[Esmeralda]

Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.

I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.

No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?

I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.

Greg

Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach. And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.

The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women

There is a lot of partial nudity on the beaches of France, especially along the Mediterranean. Many women go topless. I wonder that conservative Muslim women would be comfortable in such an atmosphere. I wonder why they would even want to be there.

I lived for 2 years in Turkey. I traveled around Turkey with Muslim women. They go to the beach and wear bikinis, older women may wear one piece suits. No one felt this was an offense to modesty. It is not Islam that dictates something like the burkini. It is oppressive cultural attitudes.

Agree, it's cultural attitudes - but, who has the right to force them to where something they feel is dreadfully imodest? Shouldn't it be her choice?

Well, it isn't their culture. If the French culture says you can't wear this outfit, we don't find it acceptable, then that's what you adhere to. I have lived in far more conservative Muslim countries than Turkey and I and other Western women are expected to conform to a certain level of modesty in public dress. We are not onlyy expected to, we are required to. Now, for me, an older woman, it is not really an issue, but young women simply cannot wear the kind of clothing, like mini skirts or tank tops, for instance, they would wear in the West

I find it extremelyy hypocritical that the Muslim women get so bent out of shape being required to abstain from certain dress when they are in the West, but expect Western women to adhere to their standards in Muslim countries.

 

[Coyote]

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.

You are being an idiot, as usual. Its about free choice. No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it. It's a free country. In theory. That 6% who support it can wear it. No one else has to

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.

When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.

I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.

"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.

I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.

Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and even defiance caused by wearing them.

It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?

If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled to do so and more power to them! There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.

It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.

She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.

You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have imagine in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.

Why don't you go over to an Arab country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.

The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.

If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate and appropriate.




By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.

The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.

We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.

Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?

So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop? What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it? Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?

You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.

I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.

But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.

Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.

Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country. Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.

Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security. In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.

Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach. Who cares what they wear?

I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.

 

[Coyote]

No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?

I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.

Greg

Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach. And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.

The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women

There is a lot of partial nudity on the beaches of France, especially along the Mediterranean. Many women go topless. I wonder that conservative Muslim women would be comfortable in such an atmosphere. I wonder why they would even want to be there.

I lived for 2 years in Turkey. I traveled around Turkey with Muslim women. They go to the beach and wear bikinis, older women may wear one piece suits. No one felt this was an offense to modesty. It is not Islam that dictates something like the burkini. It is oppressive cultural attitudes.

Agree, it's cultural attitudes - but, who has the right to force them to where something they feel is dreadfully imodest? Shouldn't it be her choice?

Well, it isn't their culture. If the French culture says you can't wear this outfit, we don't find it acceptable, then that's what you adhere to. I have lived in far more conservative Muslim countries than Turkey and I and other Western women are expected to conform to a certain level of modesty in public dress. We are not onlyy expected to, we are required to. Now, for me, an older woman, it is not really an issue, but young women simply cannot wear the kind of clothing, like mini skirts or tank tops, for instance, they would wear in the West

I find it extremelyy hypocritical that the Muslim women get so bent out of shape being required to abstain from certain dress when they are in the West, but expect Western women to adhere to their standards in Muslim countries.

Shouldn't women have the right to choose in a FREE country? What if our country passed a law stating that women had to wear thongs and go topless on public beaches?

 

[saveliberty]

Shouldn't women have the right to choose in a FREE country? What if our country passed a law stating that women had to wear thongs and go topless on public beaches?

I guess this isn't a free country.

 

[StLucieBengal]

When a battered woman chooses to stay with her abuser is she oppressed?

You are comparing apples to oranges

Why, in your world, can't a woman choose to cover up at the beach?

Is it a choice when you are compelled at the threat of mental or physical violence?

Of course not.
How do you know that a woman, lying on the beach, who is covered up has been forced to wear that clothing?

Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.

My mother showns little or no skin at the beach.

Does she dress like a ghost or do what most older people do to watch how much sun they get?

Big difference between old lady American at the beach and a Muslim in black ghost attire.

 

[StLucieBengal]

No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?

I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.

Greg

Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach. And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.

The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women

There is a lot of partial nudity on the beaches of France, especially along the Mediterranean. Many women go topless. I wonder that conservative Muslim women would be comfortable in such an atmosphere. I wonder why they would even want to be there.

I lived for 2 years in Turkey. I traveled around Turkey with Muslim women. They go to the beach and wear bikinis, older women may wear one piece suits. No one felt this was an offense to modesty. It is not Islam that dictates something like the burkini. It is oppressive cultural attitudes.

Agree, it's cultural attitudes - but, who has the right to force them to where something they feel is dreadfully imodest? Shouldn't it be her choice?

Well, it isn't their culture. If the French culture says you can't wear this outfit, we don't find it acceptable, then that's what you adhere to. I have lived in far more conservative Muslim countries than Turkey and I and other Western women are expected to conform to a certain level of modesty in public dress. We are not onlyy expected to, we are required to. Now, for me, an older woman, it is not really an issue, but young women simply cannot wear the kind of clothing, like mini skirts or tank tops, for instance, they would wear in the West

I find it extremelyy hypocritical that the Muslim women get so bent out of shape being required to abstain from certain dress when they are in the West, but expect Western women to adhere to their standards in Muslim countries.

This is where i am at... Our women can't wear normal clothes over there so why on earth should we bend over backwards for their nonsense.

If our women need to put on a scarf and cover up all skin then when they Muslims come to the west they can wear tank tops and shorts. And if it's that big of an issue for them then they can just not come. Just as we can not go there if we don't wanna respect their ways.

 

[skye]

I find it extremely hypocritical that the Muslim women get so bent out of shape being required to abstain from certain dress when they are in the West, but expect Western women to adhere to their standards in Muslim countries.

BINGO!





Exactly, I do too. Talk about double standards.

 

[skye]

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.

You are being an idiot, as usual. Its about free choice. No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it. It's a free country. In theory. That 6% who support it can wear it. No one else has to

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.

When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.

I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.

"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.

I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.

Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and even defiance caused by wearing them.

It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?

If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled to do so and more power to them! There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.

It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.

She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.

You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have imagine in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.

Why don't you go over to an Arab country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.

The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.

If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate and appropriate.




By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.

The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.

We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.

Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?

So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop? What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it? Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?

You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.

I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.

But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.

Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.

Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country. Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.

Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security. In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.

Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach. Who cares what they wear?

I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.

This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.

I don't agree with anything you say and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.

This claim does you no credit whatsoever!

 

[Alex.]

You miss the point.

The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.

Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.

Religions "ordain" many things. Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?

I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.

How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Easy. They're both religions. Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow. In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles. Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

Since when are we at war with Islam? Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.

As mentioned fundamental Islam is the religion that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.

So why should we and the French people not be upset when these Islamic symbols are constantly being forced upon us.

Who forced you to wear a burkini?

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

So...let's get this straight. You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.

We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.

So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez. So much for freedom.

Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off. What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any more about feminist and women's rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.

Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.

When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency. It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion. It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers.

I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag. The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.

"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.

Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."

The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.

Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.

As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.

If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.


Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.