The "Wow" Thread Got Me Thinking...

[DGS49]

No African-American now alive has ever been a legal slave, and

No American now alive has ever legally owned a slave, and

The government now in power in Washington actually fought a war whose purpose implicitly included the end of slavery, so

Let's forget about reparations and that sort of talk and look at the state of the African American "nation," in the U.S., and compare the relative state of those folks with their cousins who remain in their ancestral homelands.

On the whole, are they better off or worse off?

They live in a democracy with more economic freedom (true upward mobility) here than in any of their ancestral lands. They are provided thirteen years of free public education, and even more subsidized education if they choose to pursue it.

They live in a society where major diseases have been eradicated, and have nothing to fear from malaria, cholera, diptheria, and on and on, unlike their cousins in Africa.

And despite the histrionics of the Jesse Jackson types, they have nothing to fear from government oppression or repression; the only mistreatment they are exposed to is at the hands of the criminal justice system - usually at their own instigation.

The average household income of African Americans - even those suckling at the Government's teats - is many times what it is in their homelands.

Is it really such a bad deal? Or should they be grateful for slavery, all things considered?

 

[Gracie]

Um...you made a bit of sense at first. Until the last sentence. Grateful????

 

[Andylusion]

None of that really matters. What matters is that there is political points to be scored in nursing racial hatred.

Anyone who looks at the poorest people in our countries, and compares it to the rest of the world, knows that our poor have it better than anyone else.

In fact, if you have two people, a married couple, both working minimum wage at McDonald's, for $7.25 an hour... that combined income of $30K places them in the top 1% of wage earners world wide. In other words, our most impoverished people are part of the world wide top 1%.....

But the fact is, people like to believe they have it bad. They like to believe they are owed something. They like to believe that others have done them wrong. Doesn't matter if it's a person of a difference race, or a white male yuppy from the upper middle class, who thinks they are owed a $100K job.

Everyone in our country should feel Grateful. Everyone. You live in the most wealthy, most secure, most free, country that has ever existed in human history. How many millions of things do we never have to worry about?

Think about Mexico's narco-wars. Think about Venezuela's roving gangs kidnappings and torture. Think about Cuba's lack of jobs, food, and an hope for a future. Think about Ukraine right now. Think about the middle east.

We have it so freakin good in this country, people should be kissing the ground, and waving US flags outside their windows every day.

 

[katsteve2012]

None of that really matters. What matters is that there is political points to be scored in nursing racial hatred.

Anyone who looks at the poorest people in our countries, and compares it to the rest of the world, knows that our poor have it better than anyone else.

In fact, if you have two people, a married couple, both working minimum wage at McDonald's, for $7.25 an hour... that combined income of $30K places them in the top 1% of wage earners world wide. In other words, our most impoverished people are part of the world wide top 1%.....

But the fact is, people like to believe they have it bad. They like to believe they are owed something. They like to believe that others have done them wrong. Doesn't matter if it's a person of a difference race, or a white male yuppy from the upper middle class, who thinks they are owed a $100K job.

Everyone in our country should feel Grateful. Everyone. You live in the most wealthy, most secure, most free, country that has ever existed in human history. How many millions of things do we never have to worry about?

Think about Mexico's narco-wars. Think about Venezuela's roving gangs kidnappings and torture. Think about Cuba's lack of jobs, food, and an hope for a future. Think about Ukraine right now. Think about the middle east.

We have it so freakin good in this country, people should be kissing the ground, and waving US flags outside their windows every day.

Just curious, what other countries have you lived in that you can compare from experience, their quality of life versus here?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

None of that really matters. What matters is that there is political points to be scored in nursing racial hatred.

Anyone who looks at the poorest people in our countries, and compares it to the rest of the world, knows that our poor have it better than anyone else.

In fact, if you have two people, a married couple, both working minimum wage at McDonald's, for $7.25 an hour... that combined income of $30K places them in the top 1% of wage earners world wide. In other words, our most impoverished people are part of the world wide top 1%.....

But the fact is, people like to believe they have it bad. They like to believe they are owed something. They like to believe that others have done them wrong. Doesn't matter if it's a person of a difference race, or a white male yuppy from the upper middle class, who thinks they are owed a $100K job.

Everyone in our country should feel Grateful. Everyone. You live in the most wealthy, most secure, most free, country that has ever existed in human history. How many millions of things do we never have to worry about?

Think about Mexico's narco-wars. Think about Venezuela's roving gangs kidnappings and torture. Think about Cuba's lack of jobs, food, and an hope for a future. Think about Ukraine right now. Think about the middle east.

We have it so freakin good in this country, people should be kissing the ground, and waving US flags outside their windows every day.

Just curious, what other countries have you lived in that you can compare from experience, their quality of life versus here?

So the fact that the US median per-capita income is $15,480.00 and places like Rwanda is $285.00, Liberia $185.00 and Sierra Leone $233.00 couldn't possibly give someone insight into their quality of life vs our quality of life?

One has to have lived there to understand the differences?

 

[katsteve2012]

None of that really matters. What matters is that there is political points to be scored in nursing racial hatred.

Anyone who looks at the poorest people in our countries, and compares it to the rest of the world, knows that our poor have it better than anyone else.

In fact, if you have two people, a married couple, both working minimum wage at McDonald's, for $7.25 an hour... that combined income of $30K places them in the top 1% of wage earners world wide. In other words, our most impoverished people are part of the world wide top 1%.....

But the fact is, people like to believe they have it bad. They like to believe they are owed something. They like to believe that others have done them wrong. Doesn't matter if it's a person of a difference race, or a white male yuppy from the upper middle class, who thinks they are owed a $100K job.

Everyone in our country should feel Grateful. Everyone. You live in the most wealthy, most secure, most free, country that has ever existed in human history. How many millions of things do we never have to worry about?

Think about Mexico's narco-wars. Think about Venezuela's roving gangs kidnappings and torture. Think about Cuba's lack of jobs, food, and an hope for a future. Think about Ukraine right now. Think about the middle east.

We have it so freakin good in this country, people should be kissing the ground, and waving US flags outside their windows every day.

Just curious, what other countries have you lived in that you can compare from experience, their quality of life versus here?

So the fact that the US median per-capita income is $15,480.00 and places like Rwanda is $285.00, Liberia $185.00 and Sierra Leone $233.00 couldn't possibly give someone insight into their quality of life vs our quality of life?

One has to have lived there to understand the differences?

If you read the OP, it was stated that the U.S......

"Is the most wealthy, most secure, most free, country that has ever existed in human history"

Not one word was mentioned about Rwanda, Liberia, or Sierra Leone.....nor any other country on the continent of Africa.

So what is your point? Judging by your statement, I am assuming your intent is to redirect this towards a rant about Africa.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Just curious, what other countries have you lived in that you can compare from experience, their quality of life versus here?

So the fact that the US median per-capita income is $15,480.00 and places like Rwanda is $285.00, Liberia $185.00 and Sierra Leone $233.00 couldn't possibly give someone insight into their quality of life vs our quality of life?

One has to have lived there to understand the differences?

If you read the OP, it was stated that the U.S......

"Is the most wealthy, most secure, most free, country that has ever existed in human history"

Not one word was mentioned about Rwanda, Liberia, or Sierra Leone.....nor any other country on the continent of Africa.

So what is your point? Judging by your statement, I am assuming your intent is to redirect this towards a rant about Africa.

The OP was comparing black Americans to their African counterparts. Those countries I listed are in Africa.

But if what you say is true and he wasn't referring to any other country, why would you respond with "...what other countries have you lived in that you can compare from experience, their quality of life versus here?"

The fact is, a person does not need to have lived in another country to know what condition their quality of life is. Median income and other socio-economic and economic factors give great insight as to what standard of living people in other regions or countries enjoy.

 

[DGS49]

When I was growing up (in the 50's), racial discrimination took the following form: A well-educated or well-qualified "Negro" applied for a job in competition with lesser qualified "white" people, and one of the white people got the job. Hence, there were a lot of "Negros" with college degrees (or other good credentials) who were working menial jobs, while lesser qualified "white" people were sitting in offices drinking coffee and going out to three-martini lunches.

That is immoral and it is unacceptable discrimination, regardless of whether it breaks any laws, and at the time there were no such laws.

Now - truth be known - immoral and illegal discrimination is so rare that the race hustlers have to make it up - or pretend that it exists where it manifestly does not.

How do they do this?

By inventing bullshit discrimination in the form of "cultural bias" of tests. "Yeah, all the Black folks who took the test had lousy scores, but the test itself was 'prejudiced.'" What rubbish!

By "inferring" discrimination from statistics. Thirteen percent of the population is "Black," but only 5 percent of the fire-fighters hired in the past five years have been "Black" so, EVEN THOUGH WE CAN'T FIND A SINGLE BLACK WHO WAS WRONGFULLY DENIED A POSITION, you have to accept the inference of discrimination from the statistics.

Again, it's a lie. And it's defamatory to the people who conduct the hiring process, but we are supposed to ignore all that because we don't want to hurt your (Black peoples') feelings.

The fact is that for most reputable empoyers THEY WOULD PREFER TO HIRE a "person of color," provided that they are at least minimally qualified. And I'm not talking about "affirmative action," or "diversity initiatives," or anything formal. Employers would LOVE to hire a Black engineer or acountant or salesman, and the fact is that if an applicant is Black they will lower their expectations a bit just to be able to consider them. And the same thing goes on after they are hired as well. Little shortcomings in performance will be tolerated and accepted in a black person, simply because the supervisor doesn't want to appear discriminatory (or don't want the inevitable lawsuit if they fire the person).

ACTUAL discrimination against Blacks in the workplace is in fact very rare today, and is more than offset by a bias in their favor by the majority of potential employers.

And in this whole hiring environment, "Black" culture is the worst enemy of Black advancement. They are told that they have to be true to their heritage and don't "talk white" or kowtow to the white "masters." So they rebel at making the kinds of minor concessions that EVERY GOOD EMPLOYEE is expected to make, regardless of race. You don't talk to your customers and co-workers the same way that you talk to your friends in a bar. This is just common sense.

The word is "ASK" not "AX."

 

[katsteve2012]

So the fact that the US median per-capita income is $15,480.00 and places like Rwanda is $285.00, Liberia $185.00 and Sierra Leone $233.00 couldn't possibly give someone insight into their quality of life vs our quality of life?

One has to have lived there to understand the differences?

If you read the OP, it was stated that the U.S......

"Is the most wealthy, most secure, most free, country that has ever existed in human history"

Not one word was mentioned about Rwanda, Liberia, or Sierra Leone.....nor any other country on the continent of Africa.

So what is your point? Judging by your statement, I am assuming your intent is to redirect this towards a rant about Africa.

The OP was comparing black Americans to their African counterparts. Those countries I listed are in Africa.

But if what you say is true and he wasn't referring to any other country, why would you respond with "...what other countries have you lived in that you can compare from experience, their quality of life versus here?"

The fact is that a person does not need to have lived in another country to know what condition their quality of life is. Median income and other socio-economic and economic factors give great insight as to what standard of living people in other regions or countries enjoy.

What you are stating is obvious. If the OP was strictly referring to the lifestyle differences between Africa and the U.S. I am at a loss as to why he did not site countries in Africa as a benchmark.

I responded in the fashion that I did because I have extensively visited other countries, and seen firsthand what their "average" standard of living is.

And again I will ask the question, "what did his post have to do with Africa?"

He did not even mention Africa. If his intent was to compare Africa with the U.S., why would he have used Mexico, Cuba, Ukraine or any other geographical location outside of Africa to make his point?

It is a bold statement to make that "the U.S. is the most wealthy, most secure, and most free in history".

That statement encompasses the world in general...not just Africa.

Lastly, for your edification, the majority of black citizens do not just sit at home waiting for a welfare check or an EBT card to arrive in the mail.

There are some of us who actually get out and get around, and believe it or not, observe different cultures in different locations.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

If you read the OP, it was stated that the U.S......

"Is the most wealthy, most secure, most free, country that has ever existed in human history"

Not one word was mentioned about Rwanda, Liberia, or Sierra Leone.....nor any other country on the continent of Africa.

So what is your point? Judging by your statement, I am assuming your intent is to redirect this towards a rant about Africa.

The OP was comparing black Americans to their African counterparts. Those countries I listed are in Africa.

But if what you say is true and he wasn't referring to any other country, why would you respond with "...what other countries have you lived in that you can compare from experience, their quality of life versus here?"

The fact is that a person does not need to have lived in another country to know what condition their quality of life is. Median income and other socio-economic and economic factors give great insight as to what standard of living people in other regions or countries enjoy.

What you are stating is obvious. If the OP was strictly referring to the lifestyle differences between Africa and the U.S. I am at a loss as to why he did not site countries in Africa as a benchmark.

I responded in the fashion that I did because I have extensively visited other countries, and seen firsthand what their "average" standard of living is.

And again I will ask the question, "what did his post have to do with Africa?"

He did not even mention Africa. If his intent was to compare Africa with the U.S., why would he have used Mexico, Cuba, Ukraine or any other geographical location outside of Africa to make his point?

It is a bold statement to make that "the U.S. is the most wealthy, most secure, and most free in history".

That statement encompasses the world in general...not just Africa.

Lastly, for your edification, the majority of black citizens do not just sit at home waiting for a welfare check or an EBT card to arrive in the mail.

There are some of us who actually get out and get around, and believe it or not, observe different cultures in different locations.

But he did mention Africa. What do you think he meant when he stated "look at the state of the African American "nation," in the U.S., and compare the relative state of those folks with their cousins who remain in their ancestral homelands"? He made several reference to ancestral lands and I believe he mentioned Africa or African nations in particular.

Where do you think "African Americans" originated from? Sweden? Holland? Austria? No. they originated from the continent of Africa which includes the countries I specified.

Why are you defending a claim that I never made about "black citizens do not just sit at home waiting for a welfare check or an EBT card to arrive in the mail"?

The entire OP was about comparing black Americans to the African cousins. How you failed to see that is beyond me.

 

[Big Black Dog]

The biggest mistake America ever made was bringing slaves into the country. Second biggest mistake was not taking them all back to where they came from when they were freed.

 

[longly]

I think DSG is right in comparing our standard of living to the other countries. With the exception Western Europe, its satellite countries and Japan there is no contest we win hands down and even in the excepted counties I still think we edge them out, even though it is close, when other factors such as our level of freedom are considered. For example in Japan citizens are not allowed to own CB radios.

 

[katsteve2012]

The OP was comparing black Americans to their African counterparts. Those countries I listed are in Africa.

But if what you say is true and he wasn't referring to any other country, why would you respond with "...what other countries have you lived in that you can compare from experience, their quality of life versus here?"

The fact is that a person does not need to have lived in another country to know what condition their quality of life is. Median income and other socio-economic and economic factors give great insight as to what standard of living people in other regions or countries enjoy.

What you are stating is obvious. If the OP was strictly referring to the lifestyle differences between Africa and the U.S. I am at a loss as to why he did not site countries in Africa as a benchmark.

I responded in the fashion that I did because I have extensively visited other countries, and seen firsthand what their "average" standard of living is.

And again I will ask the question, "what did his post have to do with Africa?"

He did not even mention Africa. If his intent was to compare Africa with the U.S., why would he have used Mexico, Cuba, Ukraine or any other geographical location outside of Africa to make his point?

It is a bold statement to make that "the U.S. is the most wealthy, most secure, and most free in history".

That statement encompasses the world in general...not just Africa.

Lastly, for your edification, the majority of black citizens do not just sit at home waiting for a welfare check or an EBT card to arrive in the mail.

There are some of us who actually get out and get around, and believe it or not, observe different cultures in different locations.

But he did mention Africa. What do you think he meant when he stated "look at the state of the African American "nation," in the U.S., and compare the relative state of those folks with their cousins who remain in their ancestral homelands"? He made several reference to ancestral lands and I believe he mentioned Africa or African nations in particular.

Where do you think "African Americans" originated from? Sweden? Holland? Austria? No. they originated from the continent of Africa which includes the countries I specified.

Why are you defending a claim that I never made about "black citizens do not just sit at home waiting for a welfare check or an EBT card to arrive in the mail"?

The entire OP was about comparing black Americans to the African cousins. How you failed to see that is beyond me.

I see where the misunderstanding is here. I was responding to post #3 in this thread, which I originally quoted, and you responded to. You should take note that the post that I responded to initially that prompted you to begin talking about "Africa" contained nothing about Africa at all.


Now that we are clear, carry on with your "mission."



Post #3 in this thread:
"None of that really matters. What matters is that there is political points to be scored in nursing racial hatred.

Anyone who looks at the poorest people in our countries, and compares it to the rest of the world, knows that our poor have it better than anyone else.

In fact, if you have two people, a married couple, both working minimum wage at McDonald's, for $7.25 an hour... that combined income of $30K places them in the top 1% of wage earners world wide. In other words, our most impoverished people are part of the world wide top 1%.....

But the fact is, people like to believe they have it bad. They like to believe they are owed something. They like to believe that others have done them wrong. Doesn't matter if it's a person of a difference race, or a white male yuppy from the upper middle class, who thinks they are owed a $100K job.

Everyone in our country should feel Grateful. Everyone. You live in the most wealthy, most secure, most free, country that has ever existed in human history. How many millions of things do we never have to worry about?

Think about Mexico's narco-wars. Think about Venezuela's roving gangs kidnappings and torture. Think about Cuba's lack of jobs, food, and an hope for a future. Think about Ukraine right now. Think about the middle east.

We have it so freakin good in this country, people should be kissing the ground, and waving US flags outside their windows every day."

 

[Andylusion]

But he did mention Africa. What do you think he meant when he stated "look at the state of the African American "nation," in the U.S., and compare the relative state of those folks with their cousins who remain in their ancestral homelands"? He made several reference to ancestral lands and I believe he mentioned Africa or African nations in particular.

Where do you think "African Americans" originated from? Sweden? Holland? Austria? No. they originated from the continent of Africa which includes the countries I specified.

Why are you defending a claim that I never made about "black citizens do not just sit at home waiting for a welfare check or an EBT card to arrive in the mail"?

The entire OP was about comparing black Americans to the African cousins. How you failed to see that is beyond me.

What you are stating is obvious. If the OP was strictly referring to the lifestyle differences between Africa and the U.S. I am at a loss as to why he did not site countries in Africa as a benchmark.

I responded in the fashion that I did because I have extensively visited other countries, and seen firsthand what their "average" standard of living is.

And again I will ask the question, "what did his post have to do with Africa?"

He did not even mention Africa. If his intent was to compare Africa with the U.S., why would he have used Mexico, Cuba, Ukraine or any other geographical location outside of Africa to make his point?

It is a bold statement to make that "the U.S. is the most wealthy, most secure, and most free in history".

That statement encompasses the world in general...not just Africa.

Lastly, for your edification, the majority of black citizens do not just sit at home waiting for a welfare check or an EBT card to arrive in the mail.

There are some of us who actually get out and get around, and believe it or not, observe different cultures in different locations.

Stop stop. Both of you are correct.

Lonestar is right, in that if you compare the US to any nation in Africa, it is not even close. They can't even be on the same scale, the differences are so vast. By that measure, people here should carrying an American flag at all times. I doubt anyone would say they would have rather been born in Rwanda, or Sudan.

If I remember right, didn't an "african American activist" go to Africa back in the early 2000s, and was quoted after the trip as saying "I'm not African. I'm an American" after seeing what Africa is really like? (could be wrong, can't remember specifically who it was)

However....

katsteve is also right. I did in fact say that America is the most wealthy, most free, most secure, nation that has ever existed in human history..... because it is.

Where have I lived? No where but Ohio. But.... I do have information. I have been through Europe. From Rome, to London. I have worked with mission trips, working with people who lived in Europe, from Spain, to Norway, to England, to Sweden. I have talked with people who came here from those places, in depth on the differences.

The sizes of homes. The sizes of cars. The standard of living, from Microwaves, to TVs, to even the ability to go on trips.

Did you even know that there are places in 1st world Europe, where people cut their lawns with hand scythes?

Do you know that in the UK, it's normal, to dry your cloths, on clotheslines.... inside your home? They don't have cloths driers like we do. In America, some people dry their clothes on clotheslines outside, because they like the fresh breeze smell. But if it rains, you do what 90% of the country does, and toss them in a clothes drier.

Not in the UK. Why? Too expensive. First you pay 50% of your income away in taxes, and then you pay 3 times as much as we do for electricity.

Pulleymaid™ Ceiling Clothes Airers | Wooden Drying Rack | Kitchen Clothes Airer Dryer
Ceiling mounted clotheslines, only £39.99 in the UK. ($66 or so)

Look at this...

Buy WHITE KNIGHT 28009W Spin Dryer - White | Free Delivery | Currys

The "spin" drier. That's all it does. Spin. That's it.

If you look at the other driers there, you'll notice that they look small.... because they are small.

In the UK, the average clothes drier is roughly the same size as what would be an apartment dishwasher in the US.

Perhaps you would say, why are you making a big deal about a clothes drier? Well if it was just the clothes drier, I wouldn't care. But it's systemic to everything throughout the UK and Europe. It's all this way. Small tiny cars.

Itty bitty homes.

Average British home has shrunk by two square metres in just a DECADE | Mail Online

Did you know that the average size of a *new* home, in the UK, is only 800 sq feet? Ireland, it's 940 sq feet. Netherlands is 1200 sq feet, and Denmark is 1500 sq feet.

Want to know what the average new American home size is? 2,400 Sq Feet.

The average European household has less chance of having a flat screen TV, a microwave oven, and even a dishwasher.

Now again... I'm not saying that Europe is horrible. But by nearly every possible measure one can make, the standard of living is lower in Europe. Lower doesn't mean crap. It means 'lower'.

We live in the most wealthy, most free, most secure country in Human history.

And if you need more examples, I'll be more than happy to offer them. I thought this was enough to make my point.

 

[DGS49]

Ahem...

Yes, my original post was to suggest a comparison of the life-circumstances of African Americans with Africans in the countries from which the slaves were taken. I did not mention the specific countries because (a) it is a bit controversial, and (b) I didn't have time to look it up.

The point being that "Black" leaders in this country, promoting the politics of envy, want poor "African Americans" to compare their circumstances with the perceived idyllic circumstances of upper-middle class "Whites" (mainly as seen on TV and in film), so that they will feel resentful and picked upon. I am suggesing that there is an alternate comparison, even more valid, with the people and cultures that they would be a part of had the slave traders not kidnapped their ancestors and brought them to America.

This is not to minimize or deny the intrinsic evil of slavery - just to say that now that the acute pains of slavery are long gone a more balanced viewpoint can be tried.

It is analogous to a case where an evil scientist develops a cure for a terrible disease by intentionally and secretly infecting a group of people with the disease so that it can be studied. After all those people are long dead and gone, is it possible to be content with the fact that this disease has been eradicated - and it wouldn't have been eradicated without the evil experiments? Slavery was unspeakably evil, especially in a nation that professed to be Christian and "advanced," but let's just say now that the descendants of those slaves are better off than they would have been if slavery had not existed.

 

[katsteve2012]

Ahem...

Yes, my original post was to suggest a comparison of the life-circumstances of African Americans with Africans in the countries from which the slaves were taken. I did not mention the specific countries because (a) it is a bit controversial, and (b) I didn't have time to look it up.

The point being that "Black" leaders in this country, promoting the politics of envy, want poor "African Americans" to compare their circumstances with the perceived idyllic circumstances of upper-middle class "Whites" (mainly as seen on TV and in film), so that they will feel resentful and picked upon. I am suggesing that there is an alternate comparison, even more valid, with the people and cultures that they would be a part of had the slave traders not kidnapped their ancestors and brought them to America.

This is not to minimize or deny the intrinsic evil of slavery - just to say that now that the acute pains of slavery are long gone a more balanced viewpoint can be tried.

It is analogous to a case where an evil scientist develops a cure for a terrible disease by intentionally and secretly infecting a group of people with the disease so that it can be studied. After all those people are long dead and gone, is it possible to be content with the fact that this disease has been eradicated - and it wouldn't have been eradicated without the evil experiments? Slavery was unspeakably evil, especially in a nation that professed to be Christian and "advanced," but let's just say now that the descendants of those slaves are better off than they would have been if slavery had not existed.

This is all hypothetical glorification and speculation, because no one can accurately predict what the outcome of ones future "WOULD HAVE BEEN" living free or enslaved.

Of course another possible scenario could have been if Africa or even America had never been colonized by Europe, civilization of the European continent would've collapsed due to overpopulation and a lack of resources, and the regions of Africa and America would have remained largely dependent on substistence agriculture and hunting.

 

[Andylusion]

Ahem...

Yes, my original post was to suggest a comparison of the life-circumstances of African Americans with Africans in the countries from which the slaves were taken. I did not mention the specific countries because (a) it is a bit controversial, and (b) I didn't have time to look it up.

The point being that "Black" leaders in this country, promoting the politics of envy, want poor "African Americans" to compare their circumstances with the perceived idyllic circumstances of upper-middle class "Whites" (mainly as seen on TV and in film), so that they will feel resentful and picked upon. I am suggesing that there is an alternate comparison, even more valid, with the people and cultures that they would be a part of had the slave traders not kidnapped their ancestors and brought them to America.

This is not to minimize or deny the intrinsic evil of slavery - just to say that now that the acute pains of slavery are long gone a more balanced viewpoint can be tried.

It is analogous to a case where an evil scientist develops a cure for a terrible disease by intentionally and secretly infecting a group of people with the disease so that it can be studied. After all those people are long dead and gone, is it possible to be content with the fact that this disease has been eradicated - and it wouldn't have been eradicated without the evil experiments? Slavery was unspeakably evil, especially in a nation that professed to be Christian and "advanced," but let's just say now that the descendants of those slaves are better off than they would have been if slavery had not existed.

This is all hypothetical glorification and speculation, because no one can accurately predict what the outcome of ones future "WOULD HAVE BEEN" living free or enslaved.

Of course another possible scenario could have been if Africa or even America had never been colonized by Europe, civilization of the European continent would've collapsed due to overpopulation and a lack of resources, and the regions of Africa and America would have remained largely dependent on substistence agriculture and hunting.

Over population is joke. Further, if the free-market system is allowed to function, as the value of resources goes up, so does the incentive to find new sources of those resources.

The only time over population is a factor, is in communist socialist systems, where the production of resources is limited by government.

 

[DGS49]

Well, it's interesting to think about what "would have been" if mass deaths and migrations hadn't occurred.

It is documented that large numbers of Africans (more than half) died of disease, maltreatment, and malnutrition before they ever were sold into the slave markets. What if they all had survived? What if they all had remained in Africa?

I was in Germany a few months ago talking to a local about the private residential houses, and how well they are constructed. He explained that Germans assume their houses will be taken over by their children (the oldest one, presumably) after they die, for generations. But what if they hadn't lost millions of young men during WWII? Would they have enough housing now?

It is estimated that 90% of the "Indians" in what is now Mexico died of diseases spread by Cortez and his contemporaries within 20 years of his arrival. What if 90% of them had survived? What would Mexico look like now?

 

[emilynghiem]

I think taxpayers are still owed 24 billion (est?) from Congress costing us from the last shutdown.
Even though our system of civilized democracy replaces militant combat, and our lawsuits
replace dueling swords and pistols to bully it out in court using bigger dollars to hire bigger lawyers,
we still do not resolve grievances and end up paying money we cannot afford while our
schools, hospitals, historic landmarks and economy suffers without funds to invest there.

We may mask our political gangs and tribal warfare behind billion-dollar media campaigns,
but we still haven't solve problems even though we have the best access to free speech, press and right to petition.
We still have steps to go to evolve to a mature self-governing society as any other nation or continent is facing.

Just because wrongdoing was long ago doesn't make the injustice go away.
it is still carried in the conscience and we still owe a debt to the ancestors who suffered until we perfect our system for redressing grievances in full.

Hawaiian native descendants still seek reparations for the genocide they suffered.
This DOES affect future generations who no longer have sovereignty over the land they would have inherited from their ancestors, and have also lost irreplaceable natural resources including endangered or extinct species due to destruction of their native habitat.

Descendents of Freedmen's Town are still owed reparations to restore the national history destroyed by city abuse of federal funds to seize and demolish historic landmarks and gravesites. I plan to write a letter to Congresswoman SJLee summarizing my findings and recommendations for restoring inalienable rights never protected but violated by govt.

High income taxpayers are reportedly leaving New Jersey to avoid a 42% tax rate.
If you recall, when Slaves were acknowledged as less than equal to citizens,
they were counted as 3/5 free and 2/5 slave. So if you own 60% of your labor
and 40% of your labor/income belongs to govt, then you are back and 2/5 slave
where that portion of your labor belongs to your master you are required by law to pay.

Malcolm X said until all of us are free, none of us is free.

The same solutions overcome any one of these problem situations where debts and damages are still owed for violating the consent and sovereignty of equal human beings.

No African-American now alive has ever been a legal slave, and

No American now alive has ever legally owned a slave, and

The government now in power in Washington actually fought a war whose purpose implicitly included the end of slavery, so

Let's forget about reparations and that sort of talk and look at the state of the African American "nation," in the U.S., and compare the relative state of those folks with their cousins who remain in their ancestral homelands.

On the whole, are they better off or worse off?

They live in a democracy with more economic freedom (true upward mobility) here than in any of their ancestral lands. They are provided thirteen years of free public education, and even more subsidized education if they choose to pursue it.

They live in a society where major diseases have been eradicated, and have nothing to fear from malaria, cholera, diptheria, and on and on, unlike their cousins in Africa.

And despite the histrionics of the Jesse Jackson types, they have nothing to fear from government oppression or repression; the only mistreatment they are exposed to is at the hands of the criminal justice system - usually at their own instigation.

The average household income of African Americans - even those suckling at the Government's teats - is many times what it is in their homelands.

Is it really such a bad deal? Or should they be grateful for slavery, all things considered?

Note: I will ask other USMB members to post the links here to the "Reconciliation Villages" in Africa where they have successfully overcome the wounds of genocide to restore the integrity of their communities.

In some ways, they have come farther than people in the US who cannot forgive and overcome crimes and corruption here. So it is relative. You can say the genocide is more physically violent and militant there, than the "invisible" corporate and political genocide and oppression going on in America. But if we take the best solutions coming out of Africa and the U.S. maybe we can help each other and more countries that way. Every group has its strengths and weaknesses. From the viewpoint of other countries, the US may look the most messed up with all the freedoms we have, and yet we can't stop drunk driving, school shootings, or mental health problems with all the medical institutions and resources we have. We might look crazy to people in other countries who manage to do more with less.

The links someone sent me demonstrate that in some areas Africans maybe farther ahead on peace and justice than the US.
With Mandela's trust commissions in South Africa, they have a better working system than we do for ending political violence after it happens.

Our system may be better at "preventing" by "substituting" political and civil fighting and oppression in place of military conflicts to compete for power.
but we still can't solve conflicts once they escalate, even on a civil level, and leave grievances unredressed and wrongs unchecked. It's a give and a take.

Not saying one system is better than the other, but they both have strengths and weaknesses, so why not take the best of all of them and use that where it works?I
With the strong base America has founded on Christian and Constitutional principles, we have always had that to offer as a strength.
But with our "separation of church and state" and political division in the media that "less developed" regions don't have like we do,
maybe they have advantages that we could adopt or learn from as well.

When people boast that America is better than the poor places in Asia and Africa,
I bring up the mental illness and dependence on meds we have that other countries 'are too poor to have'

And how we wait for the govt to pay us unemployment benefits, or print out money and issue through banks or programs,
while "poor people in village" know to rely on their own labor to create their own economy, which we have forgotten how to do.
Instead we wait for govt or parties to tell us what to do instead of investing our own money and labor directly.
developing by free enterprise is now punished by a growing govt that competes for our tax dollars.

so in some ways the very institutions that serve as an advantage can be abused to work against us.
in those areas, we can learn a lot from places that don't have govt to fall back on, and create their own solutions themselves.
again, the Reconciliation Villages is one example. another favorite is the Grameen Foundation and Bank
that implemented microlending to end poverty by training and jumpstarting local businesses. that program
came out of Bangladesh, one of the poorest regions in the world, but become the most successful of its kind.

 

[Michelle420]

No African-American now alive has ever been a legal slave, and

No American now alive has ever legally owned a slave, and

The government now in power in Washington actually fought a war whose purpose implicitly included the end of slavery, so

Let's forget about reparations and that sort of talk and look at the state of the African American "nation," in the U.S., and compare the relative state of those folks with their cousins who remain in their ancestral homelands.

On the whole, are they better off or worse off?

They live in a democracy with more economic freedom (true upward mobility) here than in any of their ancestral lands. They are provided thirteen years of free public education, and even more subsidized education if they choose to pursue it.

They live in a society where major diseases have been eradicated, and have nothing to fear from malaria, cholera, diptheria, and on and on, unlike their cousins in Africa.

And despite the histrionics of the Jesse Jackson types, they have nothing to fear from government oppression or repression; the only mistreatment they are exposed to is at the hands of the criminal justice system - usually at their own instigation.

The average household income of African Americans - even those suckling at the Government's teats - is many times what it is in their homelands.

Is it really such a bad deal? Or should they be grateful for slavery, all things considered?

Start video at 10:10

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuJgmBfnh4E&list=PLp-xCDetXEwmquSarqAf7sqJ9dvMIwRCp&feature=share]Genocide worse than war 1/8 - YouTube[/ame]

Mental Health only 1 psychatrist for every 500,000 people in africa

[ame=http://youtu.be/3RydHf_n0jM]Mental Health Discussion - YouTube[/ame]

People turn to spiritual solutions of forgiveness as an alternative

Killers and the families of their victims find a way to move forward in a Rwandan village 18 years after the genocide.

[ame=http://youtu.be/w-j2ThPGjXs]Rwandan reconciliation village - YouTube[/ame]

I forgive you

[ame=http://youtu.be/DKXHK74qLdg]Rwandan Tutsi Forgives - YouTube[/ame]