CDZ There are TWO Genders: Change My Mind

[theHawk]

Once again proving that Conservatives are unable to distinguish Biology from Psychology.

We can clearly recognize batshit crazy when we see it. That you and your kind see this ability as something to be condemned says much more about you than it does about us.

You don’t recognize that a biological male can be psychologically attracted to his own sex?

A male can absolutely be sexually attracted to a male. Homosexuality is psychological, perhaps even emotional, but it's not biological. And just because a biological male is attracted to males does not mean that the biological male is, or can be converted into, or even should be converted to, a female.

Transgenderism and transexualism is an assault on homosexuals.

There are also males who psychologically identify as female, even though biologically they are male.

Same applies to females

It doesn’t matter how they “feel”. It doesn’t change their gender.

Your biological gender does not determine who you love or the sex you associate with

Why are you so obsessed with biological gender?
Let people live their lives and stop being such an asshole about it

When did I ever say it did? No one is disputing that homos exist.

So stop trying to derail the thread. Sexual attraction has nothing to do with how many genders there are.

So, what difference does that make?

There are two biological genders and endless variations within those genders.

There are no “endless variations”, there are two genders, period. When you have a form to fill out and it has a checkbox, you either pick man or woman. Male or female.

 

[ESay]

So stop trying to derail the thread. Sexual attraction has nothing to do with how many genders there are

Derail the thread? This thread will soon have a thousand posts and discussions here started over and over again about the same point. What else can be added to that?

Quite correct. There two genders, and none of these wackos can prove otherwise. That’s why they keep trying to move the goal posts.

Biologically yes, there are two sexes. But there are men who consider themselves as women and vice versa. What can you do with them? Send them to a psychiatrist clinic or prison or to the wilderness? Nothing.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So stop trying to derail the thread. Sexual attraction has nothing to do with how many genders there are

Derail the thread? This thread will soon have a thousand posts and discussions here started over and over again about the same point. What else can be added to that?

Quite correct. There two genders, and none of these wackos can prove otherwise. That’s why they keep trying to move the goal posts.

Biologically yes, there are two sexes. But there are men who consider themselves as women and vice versa. What can you do with them? Send them to a psychiatrist clinic or prison or to the wilderness? Nothing.

What you can do with them is tell them to adjust their desires to reality, the way every adult has to. No one's especially objecting to men wearing dresses and considering themselves to be pretty princesses. We're objecting to them demanding that WE say they're pretty princesses, lest their feelings be hurt. I genuinely, 100% don't give a shit if their feelings are hurt, and the more they keep throwing tantrums, the more I edge toward actually enjoying their feelings being hurt.

 

[Pellinore]

Seriously, the hysteria of the left right now is absolutely insane.

Okay, we know of the two biological sexes, male and female. While there are genetic disorders that give people traits of both, those genetic disorders are extremely rare, and even when they do happen the person exhibits the traits of one sex much more predominantly than the other. The idea of a “hermaphrodite” is almost a myth, there really is no genetic disorder that allows for fully functional sex organs of both sexes. Besides, according to these “trans” advocates, gender is different than biological sex.

So we aren’t talking about people with some rare genetic disorder, as some have now started to move the goalposts and have been bringing them up. This is about “gender”.

These trans activists are claiming that a male can “be a woman” just by self identifying as one. Sure, they have the right to self identify all they want, but that doesn’t make their fantasy a reality, nor does or should society have to accept it.

For example, a male that pretends to be a female is still a man. He’s a cross dressing man.

A male that undergoes some “sex change” surgery is still a man and a male. His chromosomes do not change, they are still XY.

Same of course goes with females pretending to be men. Their biological sex does not change, so neither does their gender.


For those screaming in horror about the simple statement “there are TWO genders, men and women”, what are the other genders? Please provide specific examples.

This is Clean Debate Zone. Please keep the childish insults to yourself, and provide a clear and concise response.

I'll give this a shot.

You've already got the basic recognition: sex and gender are two different things. Sex is biological, almost everyone you meet is XX or XY, male or female, and is same to every person in every culture in every time. Gender is the social expectations of someone of that sex, masculine or feminine. In our culture, men have names like Steve, can become priests, and wear suits, while women have names like Stephanie, can become nuns, and wear dresses, because names, religion, and clothing are all aspects of our culture.

Social pressure goes a long way to encourage males to do masculine things, and females to do feminine things, but what do you do with someone who simply prefers to do the other? There are plenty of women who prefer pants to dresses, or men who have long hair, and we typically don't care. A transgender person is someone who simply prefers to live most of their life in ways that society usually reserves for the opposite sex. On top of that, there are people who don't identify themselves with either set of expectations (non-gender), who change how to live each day (gender-fluid), or who reject the idea that there are two genders entirely. It is this last group that are most likely to assert that there are a gazillion different genders.

Now, mind you, this is all just about self-identity, what someone calls themselves or how they express themselves. Separate from that is sexual preference—heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, asexual, demisexual, sapiosexual, the list goes on and on.

And all of THAT is also separate from the surgery. I don't know *too* much about this, because I really don't care what's in someone else's pants, but you are correct that is not really a "sex change," because there's no such thing as chromosome transplants. That's why they now call it "gender reassignment surgery." I do know that it's not necessary or inevitable for a trans person to get it, and there are several different stages and types. I get the feeling that most trans people don't get it, but I can't say for sure. That's about all I know about that.

The LGBT umbrella includes all of everyone, pretty much except the straight and cisgendered (cis=same, so anyone who isn't trans). Its "long-form" abbreviation is LGBTQIA+, including the Questioning (those who haven't figured themselves out yet), the Intersex (the rare few whose biological sex contains elements of both), the Asexual (or agender, or even aromantic, who are attracted/identify with/feel romance toward no one), and the + for eeeeeeeverybody else. As best I can tell, they use the term "Queer" to refer to anyone under the umbrella, but like any casual terms, their precise meanings vary.

Mind you, I am on the outside looking in, but this is what I've learned after years of trying to get it straight (no pun intended). I hope it helps.

This also explains why the "trans" agenda comes into conflict with feminism and women in general: because women have fought for decades to get out of the box of shallow cultural stereotypes defining womanhood, and now here we are, right back where we started, with a group of men declaring that those same shallow stereotypes are THE definition of womanhood.

Except there's a difference between cultural roles and shallow stereotypes. Someone being called 'she,' changing their name to Patricia, wearing makeup, and wanting to present themselves to the world in feminine ways, is not the same as being told to stay at home, being denied education or opportunity, or having everyone assume they only wear pink dresses and can't change a tire.

There are bad actors out there (aren't there always), but it is perfectly possible to be pro-both.

 

[Pellinore]

I'll give this a shot.

You've already got the basic recognition: sex and gender are two different things. Sex is biological, almost everyone you meet is XX or XY, male or female, and is same to every person in every culture in every time. Gender is the social expectations of someone of that sex, masculine or feminine.

If that's the case, we shouldn't have issues with biological males that insist on playing female sports or insisting on using female restrooms and locker rooms.

Bottom line, transgender females (bio-males) expected to be recognized as fully female by society, no different than real women and girls. Ditto for transgender males wanting to be recognized as fully male.

And they should be recognized that way, as much as society is able. Honestly, I don't think it's practical to expect a society to completely re-construct itself, but I think it's part of becoming a more perfect union that we keep getting more accepting of how others want to live, as long as they aren't hurting anyone else, and as far as I've seen, they aren't.

 

[JoeMoma]

And they should be recognized that way,

No they should not. Why, because it is not true. Society should not participate in the lie that they are telling themselves.

 

[Pellinore]

And they should be recognized that way,

No they should not. Why, because it is not true. Society should not participate in the lie that they are telling themselves.

Well, I'm not going to try to change your opinion, even if I thought I could. I will say this, though: There was a time when women were expected to wear dresses. Pants were seen as men's clothes, and women who wore them were criticized, jeered, excluded, threatened, beaten, disowned, and arrested. The men who did all of these things justified themselves by saying things much like you just did: Who do they think they are, they think they're men but they're not, they're lying to themselves, and so on. They insisted that they were upholding the natural order of things, but now we know that they were being close-minded and cruel, arguing nonsense and why? What these women wore didn't affect them one bit.

You're free to think what you will, but you should know that you're on the wrong side of history, and are coming across as being close-minded and cruel.

 

[JoeMoma]

You're free to think what you will, but you should know that you're on the wrong side of history, and are coming across as being close-minded and cruel.

Closed minded, perhaps I am. Cruel, no not at all. I am on the right side of common sense, For example, I know that a transgender does not need to see a gynaecologist -- no internal female organs.

'Shocked, confused and hurt': Transgender woman's fury after gynaecologist refused to see her

Jessica Yaniv, 32, said she was told by a gynaecologist's office: 'We don't serve transgender patients.'

au.news.yahoo.com

 

[San Souci]

I think it was more than 2 years ago, when Target wanted to install new bathrooms. Instead of two usual bathrooms, they were going to add a third bathroom. How did that go? Probably not well. Due to the fact, people who "believe" they are a "woman"; when in fact, they "look" like a man, would still go into the Ladies Room. And vice versa.
Talk about corrupting the kids who have to use the bathrooms.

Outraged shoppers threaten to boycott Target after a man exposes himself to a young girl in a store's bathroom

Target's bathroom policy was blamed in a widely shared Facebook post about the incident.

www.businessinsider.com

I only know how the experiment went in the Target in Culver City because I asked why there were two bathrooms, men and women, when the company policy was that all would be gender neutral.

The answer that I got was that men would use BOTH bathrooms for masturbation hoping that a woman would come in and see them. The experiment was called a failure and they went back to prohibiting men from women's rooms.

As they should. These Trannys are really just sexual predators.

Are they predators?The two I have met were painfully shy. You must know many Transexuals to have formed such and opinion.

Nope. There is no such thing. They are sick fucks. Or perverts who want a peek.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I don't think it's practical to expect a society to completely re-construct itself,

Yet, you lend your support to the extremist agenda of authoritarians who are doing just that.

 

[Pellinore]

I don't think it's practical to expect a society to completely re-construct itself,

Yet, you lend your support to the extremist agenda of authoritarians who are doing just that.

Brother, if you think the transgender debate represents the pinnacle of extreme authoritarian agendas, you have lived a sheltered life.

 

[ESay]

So stop trying to derail the thread. Sexual attraction has nothing to do with how many genders there are

Derail the thread? This thread will soon have a thousand posts and discussions here started over and over again about the same point. What else can be added to that?

Quite correct. There two genders, and none of these wackos can prove otherwise. That’s why they keep trying to move the goal posts.

Biologically yes, there are two sexes. But there are men who consider themselves as women and vice versa. What can you do with them? Send them to a psychiatrist clinic or prison or to the wilderness? Nothing.

What you can do with them is tell them to adjust their desires to reality, the way every adult has to. No one's especially objecting to men wearing dresses and considering themselves to be pretty princesses. We're objecting to them demanding that WE say they're pretty princesses, lest their feelings be hurt. I genuinely, 100% don't give a shit if their feelings are hurt, and the more they keep throwing tantrums, the more I edge toward actually enjoying their feelings being hurt.

If you refuse to refer to a man as 'she' and use women's name when communicating with him, then it is your choice and your right.

Biologically this person will be a man in any case, so you will be right in this regard. But someone may consider it to be rude. But then again, it is a choice of oneself how to behave in the society.

Sometimes, you come across a person who is an idiot. Some choose to be polite and not to use this word in communication, others can call him (her) this name after a couple of words. It is a personal choice.

 

[sartre play]

Just another group like gay people, who came out of the closet, always have been around. Just like the people that believe in things like pedophile rings in pizza places basements that have no basement. Or space lasers, people now have permission to come out of there closet.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Seriously, the hysteria of the left right now is absolutely insane.

Okay, we know of the two biological sexes, male and female. While there are genetic disorders that give people traits of both, those genetic disorders are extremely rare, and even when they do happen the person exhibits the traits of one sex much more predominantly than the other. The idea of a “hermaphrodite” is almost a myth, there really is no genetic disorder that allows for fully functional sex organs of both sexes. Besides, according to these “trans” advocates, gender is different than biological sex.

So we aren’t talking about people with some rare genetic disorder, as some have now started to move the goalposts and have been bringing them up. This is about “gender”.

These trans activists are claiming that a male can “be a woman” just by self identifying as one. Sure, they have the right to self identify all they want, but that doesn’t make their fantasy a reality, nor does or should society have to accept it.

For example, a male that pretends to be a female is still a man. He’s a cross dressing man.

A male that undergoes some “sex change” surgery is still a man and a male. His chromosomes do not change, they are still XY.

Same of course goes with females pretending to be men. Their biological sex does not change, so neither does their gender.


For those screaming in horror about the simple statement “there are TWO genders, men and women”, what are the other genders? Please provide specific examples.

This is Clean Debate Zone. Please keep the childish insults to yourself, and provide a clear and concise response.

I'll give this a shot.

You've already got the basic recognition: sex and gender are two different things. Sex is biological, almost everyone you meet is XX or XY, male or female, and is same to every person in every culture in every time. Gender is the social expectations of someone of that sex, masculine or feminine. In our culture, men have names like Steve, can become priests, and wear suits, while women have names like Stephanie, can become nuns, and wear dresses, because names, religion, and clothing are all aspects of our culture.

Social pressure goes a long way to encourage males to do masculine things, and females to do feminine things, but what do you do with someone who simply prefers to do the other? There are plenty of women who prefer pants to dresses, or men who have long hair, and we typically don't care. A transgender person is someone who simply prefers to live most of their life in ways that society usually reserves for the opposite sex. On top of that, there are people who don't identify themselves with either set of expectations (non-gender), who change how to live each day (gender-fluid), or who reject the idea that there are two genders entirely. It is this last group that are most likely to assert that there are a gazillion different genders.

Now, mind you, this is all just about self-identity, what someone calls themselves or how they express themselves. Separate from that is sexual preference—heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, asexual, demisexual, sapiosexual, the list goes on and on.

And all of THAT is also separate from the surgery. I don't know *too* much about this, because I really don't care what's in someone else's pants, but you are correct that is not really a "sex change," because there's no such thing as chromosome transplants. That's why they now call it "gender reassignment surgery." I do know that it's not necessary or inevitable for a trans person to get it, and there are several different stages and types. I get the feeling that most trans people don't get it, but I can't say for sure. That's about all I know about that.

The LGBT umbrella includes all of everyone, pretty much except the straight and cisgendered (cis=same, so anyone who isn't trans). Its "long-form" abbreviation is LGBTQIA+, including the Questioning (those who haven't figured themselves out yet), the Intersex (the rare few whose biological sex contains elements of both), the Asexual (or agender, or even aromantic, who are attracted/identify with/feel romance toward no one), and the + for eeeeeeeverybody else. As best I can tell, they use the term "Queer" to refer to anyone under the umbrella, but like any casual terms, their precise meanings vary.

Mind you, I am on the outside looking in, but this is what I've learned after years of trying to get it straight (no pun intended). I hope it helps.

This also explains why the "trans" agenda comes into conflict with feminism and women in general: because women have fought for decades to get out of the box of shallow cultural stereotypes defining womanhood, and now here we are, right back where we started, with a group of men declaring that those same shallow stereotypes are THE definition of womanhood.

Except there's a difference between cultural roles and shallow stereotypes. Someone being called 'she,' changing their name to Patricia, wearing makeup, and wanting to present themselves to the world in feminine ways, is not the same as being told to stay at home, being denied education or opportunity, or having everyone assume they only wear pink dresses and can't change a tire.

There are bad actors out there (aren't there always), but it is perfectly possible to be pro-both.

There is a difference between cultural roles and shallow stereotypes, but there's an overlap between them, where cultural roles are defined by shallow stereotypes. Biological women serve the cultural role of motherhood, whatever else we do in our lives, because we're the only ones capable of giving birth. However, being told that that is all I can do or all I should do, in a technological society, is a shallow stereotype. And while being relegated to housewifery (whether it's what I want to do or not) or denied education and opportunity are more severe manifestations of female stereotypes than "I must really be a woman because I want to wear makeup and dresses", they are still part and parcel of the same stereotypes, and they are still womanhood being narrowly defined by male perceptions of what it is.

I'm sorry, but you can't accept the "trans" dogma as reality without ending up being anti-woman.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'll give this a shot.

You've already got the basic recognition: sex and gender are two different things. Sex is biological, almost everyone you meet is XX or XY, male or female, and is same to every person in every culture in every time. Gender is the social expectations of someone of that sex, masculine or feminine.

If that's the case, we shouldn't have issues with biological males that insist on playing female sports or insisting on using female restrooms and locker rooms.

Bottom line, transgender females (bio-males) expected to be recognized as fully female by society, no different than real women and girls. Ditto for transgender males wanting to be recognized as fully male.

And they should be recognized that way, as much as society is able. Honestly, I don't think it's practical to expect a society to completely re-construct itself, but I think it's part of becoming a more perfect union that we keep getting more accepting of how others want to live, as long as they aren't hurting anyone else, and as far as I've seen, they aren't.

No, they shouldn't be, because they aren't. Accepting that they want to wear dresses and makeup and call themselves "Tiffany" is one thing; accepting that those things actually make them women, every bit as much as I am, is something else entirely. They are not, they never will be, and society should not play at pretending that they are. It DOES hurt other people, and the fact that you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen; it just means you aren't one of the people being hurt, and so you just dismiss it as unimportant.

 

[Donald H]

No, they shouldn't be, because they aren't. Accepting that they want to wear dresses and makeup and call themselves "Tiffany" is one thing; accepting that those things actually make them women, every bit as much as I am, is something else entirely. They are not, they never will be, and society should not play at pretending that they are. It DOES hurt other people, and the fact that you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen; it just means you aren't one of the people being hurt, and so you just dismiss it as unimportant.

Why are you and most other Americans becoming so intolerant of other people's choices.
Could it be mostly attributable to your anger over being cheated out of a piece of the American pie?

Wasn't Trump supposed to correct that?
Will he still get another chance?
Some will never accept that they were duped by Trump.

 

[Cecilie1200]

And they should be recognized that way,

No they should not. Why, because it is not true. Society should not participate in the lie that they are telling themselves.

Well, I'm not going to try to change your opinion, even if I thought I could. I will say this, though: There was a time when women were expected to wear dresses. Pants were seen as men's clothes, and women who wore them were criticized, jeered, excluded, threatened, beaten, disowned, and arrested. The men who did all of these things justified themselves by saying things much like you just did: Who do they think they are, they think they're men but they're not, they're lying to themselves, and so on. They insisted that they were upholding the natural order of things, but now we know that they were being close-minded and cruel, arguing nonsense and why? What these women wore didn't affect them one bit.

You're free to think what you will, but you should know that you're on the wrong side of history, and are coming across as being close-minded and cruel.

There's one very large difference in your little analogy: those women were not, at any point in time, stating that they were men or demanding that other people confirm that they were men. They were engaging in activities that men saw as their own private preserve, but they were acknowledging fully that they were still women while doing so.

Oh, there's one other difference: you say, "It didn't affect them one bit." Hairy Tiffany demanding that he be confirmed and treated as a woman in the same way and to the same extent that I am a woman DOES hurt me, and other women. Once again, the fact that YOU don't see it and have decided that it doesn't exist and is no big deal only means that YOU are not one of the people being hurt.

Please explain to me why I am supposed to care that you have mansplained away my concerns and informed me that you're going to think I'm a mean person if I don't immediately hop to and start toeing your ideological line. Also, I'd like to know what great, psychic power you have to know the future and make definitive statements about what the "wrong side of history" is.

I do appreciate your magnanimous permission to think what we will, though. I do so worry about thinking things that the misogynists around me haven't sanctioned.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You're free to think what you will, but you should know that you're on the wrong side of history, and are coming across as being close-minded and cruel.

Closed minded, perhaps I am. Cruel, no not at all. I am on the right side of common sense, For example, I know that a transgender does not need to see a gynaecologist -- no internal female organs.

'Shocked, confused and hurt': Transgender woman's fury after gynaecologist refused to see her

Jessica Yaniv, 32, said she was told by a gynaecologist's office: 'We don't serve transgender patients.'

au.news.yahoo.com

Pellinore apparently thinks that 100 years from now, history books are going to record, "And then we discovered transgenders really DID have uteruses and ovaries after all. Boy, were we embarrassed."

 

[rightwinger]

Conservative Dogma

OK there are only TWO Genders. Male and Female. Check your genitals and that s what you get.
If you are male, you must have a female as a mate
If you are female, you must have a male as a mate.

Anything else destroys the world as I know it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So stop trying to derail the thread. Sexual attraction has nothing to do with how many genders there are

Derail the thread? This thread will soon have a thousand posts and discussions here started over and over again about the same point. What else can be added to that?

Quite correct. There two genders, and none of these wackos can prove otherwise. That’s why they keep trying to move the goal posts.

Biologically yes, there are two sexes. But there are men who consider themselves as women and vice versa. What can you do with them? Send them to a psychiatrist clinic or prison or to the wilderness? Nothing.

What you can do with them is tell them to adjust their desires to reality, the way every adult has to. No one's especially objecting to men wearing dresses and considering themselves to be pretty princesses. We're objecting to them demanding that WE say they're pretty princesses, lest their feelings be hurt. I genuinely, 100% don't give a shit if their feelings are hurt, and the more they keep throwing tantrums, the more I edge toward actually enjoying their feelings being hurt.

If you refuse to refer to a man as 'she' and use women's name when communicating with him, then it is your choice and your right.

Biologically this person will be a man in any case, so you will be right in this regard. But someone may consider it to be rude. But then again, it is a choice of oneself how to behave in the society.

Sometimes, you come across a person who is an idiot. Some choose to be polite and not to use this word in communication, others can call him (her) this name after a couple of words. It is a personal choice.

I consider it to be rude to try to appropriate my sex and gender, and to demand that I be complicit in the theft. I give their belief that I'm being rude in refusing every bit as much consideration as they give my belief that they're being rude by trying to eradicate my identity.

While I'm listing things about which I don't give a rat's ass, your judgement of "You seem like an idiot for not talking and acting exactly the way I personally think is correct" is on that list. If you're so hung up on "nice, nice, have to look nice" that you can't see past a few words to the point, that's entirely a you problem.

If you don't like how I express my thoughts and feelings, you are welcome to absent yourself from conversation with me. You are not welcome to demand that I change to suit you.