They lied…mutilating and sterilizing children does not save them….

[Seymour Flops]

There seems to be two arguments against banning trans surgery for children:

1) they never do that!
2) they have to keep doing that!

 

[Coyote]

See the tranny victim thread. See the rage of libs when states try to protect their kids....see the teachers recruiting clandestinely... ..don't lie

Liar.

 

[Coyote]

There seems to be two arguments against banning trans surgery for children:

1) they never do that!
2) they have to keep doing that!

Wrong. The argument is most if not ALL of those include all gender affirming treatments. Why is that not addressed?

 

[Coyote]

Keep in mind…..the mutilation and sterilizing of children is in the way to being a billion dollar industry…..and a lot of the donations of the butchers will go directly to the democrat party….

Prove it.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Liar.

Llmmmaaooo....talk about lying......

 

[Manonthestreet]

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/04/carve-em-up.php

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Science and people that look at the mind disagree strongly with you. Of course, this is why you're like the islamic state as you put your religion and lies over facts.

Fucked-up freak:

“You're wrong! I'm a girl!
Look at me!
How could you say I'm not a girl?
See, they're all looking at me.
I'm beautiful!”​

Doctor:

“The anger, it's just the cancer talking.
Put your clothes back on.
I'm gonna cut your calls off.
And be fine.”​

​

I never watched that show, but according to a comment on the post, the “girl” in this scene had testicular cancer, and the doctor was going to have to remove “her” testicles as a result.

​

 

[Bob Blaylock]

There's hundreds of papers in science backed by nearly every college and university that matters disagreeing with your conclusions.

Transgenderism is a biological reality

Can you explain how the BNST relates to gender identity? The bed nucleus of the stria terminalis or BNST is a cluster of neurons located in the hypothalamus that plays an important role in regulating sexual arousal, reward processing related to sex, and hormonal influences on pleasure and...

www.usmessageboard.com

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Don't lie

See the tranny victim thread. See the rage of libs when states try to protect their kids....see the teachers recruiting clandestinely... ..don't lie

You might as well ask a house fly not to eat shit, a ask Coyote not to lie.

 

[mamooth]

That is the emotional black mail used to push sterilizing and mutilating young children by the democrat party…..

Everyone knows you're lying, and they know why -- you're trying to stir up hate and violence against a scapegoat minority, for the purpose of gaining political power. Yes, it is that obvious.

It's a classic fascist tactic. If this was 1933 Germany, you'd be telling us how Jews drink the blood of children.

And yes, I am pointing out how all the trans-haters act like Nazis. Because they do.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Liar.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Wrong. The argument is most if not ALL of those include all gender affirming treatments. Why is that not addressed?

I'm sorry, I'm not 100% sure I know what you mean. ALL of what include all gender affirming treatments? I'm going to guess what you mean, but I usually get such guesses wrong.

Do you mean all bans on transgender treatment for children are not just about surgery, but also hormones, counseling, and social transitioning?

If so, I address it thusly:

I dont' agree with banning social transitioning. Parents who believe that their child suffers from Gender Dysphoria or who have been told by an entrepreneur of the transgenderization of children industry that the child is dyphoric, should act with great caution. They should approach this transition slowly and should self-monitor for signs of vicarious re-living of their own childhood issues, Munchausen by Proxy, and stage parenting.

Still, that is not a decision I would have government make for parents. I believe that many, if not the overwhelming majority of parent/transitioners will have some combination of childhood issues, Munchausen by proxy and stage parenting. But I would no more expect them to listen to me than I would listen to them if they told me to transition my child.

I would like to see gender counseling of children regulated, but not banned. I don't believe that counselors of children can be trusted to self-regulate. I believe that by deciding to be counselors of child transgenders, they self-select as having an agenda. In other words, no one not heavily vested in the idea of child transition would go into that field.* I believe that there is too much profit motive in steering a child toward transitioning rather than toward self-acceptance.

It is true that hormones do less damage than scapals when improperly used on children. But the harm is real, not subjective and it is a part of all hormonal treatment for Gender Dysphoria. I'm fine with it for adults, other than hating to have to pay for it. But not for children, they cannot give informed consent.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2046221

Despite the widely recognized deficiencies in the evidence supporting gender-affirmative interventions (National Institute for Health & Care Excellence, Citation2020a; Citation2020b), the process of obtaining informed consent from patients and their families has no established standard. There is no consensus about the requisite elements of evaluations, nor is there unanimity about how informed consent processes should be conducted (Byne et al., Citation2012). These two matters are inconsistent from practitioner to practitioner, clinic to clinic, and country to country.

Social transition, hormonal interventions, and surgery have profound implications for the course of the lives of young patients and their families. It is incumbent upon professionals that these consequences be thoroughly, patiently clarified over time prior to undertaking any element of transition. The informed consent process does not preclude transition; it merely educates the family about the state of the science underpinning the decision to transition. Social transition, hormones, and surgeries are unproven in a strict scientific sense, and as such, to be ethical, require a thorough and fully informed consent process.

I would take issue only with the idea that it is the family who should be providing informed consent. It is the patient, who is undergoing a life-changing set of treatments with little evidence of benefit, that should be giving informed consent. Children cannot do that.

*off-topic, but the same can be said for people who go into climate research.

 

[Coyote]

I'm sorry, I'm not 100% sure I know what you mean. ALL of what include all gender affirming treatments? I'm going to guess what you mean, but I usually get such guesses wrong.

Do you mean all bans on transgender treatment for children are not just about surgery, but also hormones, counseling, and social transitioning?

I’ll clarify. Most of the arguments against these legislative bans is that they do not just ban surgery (which is not common nor is recommended for those under 18) by the relevant medical professions) but they also ban puberty blockers, hormone treatments. In addition, states may have bans on children being able to use alternative names or pronouns not in line with their birth certificate which would inhibit social transitioning.

If so, I address it thusly:

I dont' agree with banning social transitioning. Parents who believe that their child suffers from Gender Dysphoria or who have been told by an entrepreneur of the transgenderization of children industry that the child is dyphoric, should act with great caution. They should approach this transition slowly and should self-monitor for signs of vicarious re-living of their own childhood issues, Munchausen by Proxy, and stage parenting.

Disagree in part - there is no “transgender action industry”…this needs to be dealt with between the parents, child and their doctors. There are always going to be those parents or doctors who are unethical, but that is no different than any other medical situation. Agree with approaching it slowly.

Still, that is not a decision I would have government make for parents. I believe that many, if not the overwhelming majority of parent/transitioners will have some combination of childhood issues, Munchausen by proxy and stage parenting. But I would no more expect them to listen to me than I would listen to them if they told me to transition my child.

I agree with your first comment, but, again, feel this is something that should be up to the family and their doctors.

I would like to see gender counseling of children regulated, but not banned. I don't believe that counselors of children can be trusted to self-regulate. I believe that by deciding to be counselors of child transgenders, they self-select as having an agenda. In other words, no one not heavily vested in the idea of child transition would go into that field.* I believe that there is too much profit motive in steering a child toward transitioning rather than toward self-acceptance.

Very much don’t agree. IMO, the professional organizations themselves act as regulators and determine, via evidence, what the best course of treatment is. I hear the “the profit motive” brought up quite often but no one has ever been able to show that to be the case and this seems to be the ONLY arm of counseling where these claims are being made. Self acceptance may well involve some level of transitioning.

It is true that hormones do less damage than scapals when improperly used on children. But the harm is real, not subjective and it is a part of all hormonal treatment for Gender Dysphoria. I'm fine with it for adults, other than hating to have to pay for it. But not for children, they cannot give informed consent.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2046221

Despite the widely recognized deficiencies in the evidence supporting gender-affirmative interventions (National Institute for Health & Care Excellence, Citation2020a; Citation2020b), the process of obtaining informed consent from patients and their families has no established standard. There is no consensus about the requisite elements of evaluations, nor is there unanimity about how informed consent processes should be conducted (Byne et al., Citation2012). These two matters are inconsistent from practitioner to practitioner, clinic to clinic, and country to country.

Social transition, hormonal interventions, and surgery have profound implications for the course of the lives of young patients and their families. It is incumbent upon professionals that these consequences be thoroughly, patiently clarified over time prior to undertaking any element of transition. The informed consent process does not preclude transition; it merely educates the family about the state of the science underpinning the decision to transition. Social transition, hormones, and surgeries are unproven in a strict scientific sense, and as such, to be ethical, require a thorough and fully informed consent process.

I would take issue only with the idea that it is the family who should be providing informed consent. It is the patient, who is undergoing a life-changing set of treatments with little evidence of benefit, that should be giving informed consent. Children cannot do that.

*off-topic, but the same can be said for people who go into climate research.

There are a number of illnesses and conditions that can involve life-changing treatments and consent depends on the age of the child. Older children have enough awareness to have input on their treatment. In addition, these treatments do not have little evidence of benefit, research has shown significant benefit in certain key metrics.

What the Science on Gender-Affirming Care for Transgender Kids Really Shows

Laws that ban gender-affirming treatment ignore the wealth of research demonstrating its benefits for trans people’s health

www.scientificamerican.com

The truth is that data from more than a dozen studies of more than 30,000 transgender and gender-diverse young people consistently show that access to gender-affirming care is associated with better mental health outcomes—and that lack of access to such care is associated with higher rates of suicidality, depression and self-harming behavior. (Gender diversity refers to the extent to which a person’s gendered behaviors, appearance and identities are culturally incongruent with the sex they were assigned at birth. Gender-diverse people can identify along the transgender spectrum, but not all do.) Major medical organizations, including the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, the Endocrine Society, the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association, have published policy statements and guidelines on how to provide age-appropriate gender-affirming care. All of those medical societies find such care to be evidence-based and medically necessary.


Note: I’m not talking about surgery.

I

 

[Bob Blaylock]

I’ll clarify. Most of the arguments against these legislative bans is that they do not just ban surgery (which is not common nor is recommended for those under 18) by the relevant medical professions) but they also ban puberty blockers, hormone treatments. In addition, states may have bans on children being able to use alternative names or pronouns not in line with their birth certificate which would inhibit social transitioning.

One has to be seriously fucked in the head and in the soul (assuming one still has it) to think that it is ever in any way acceptable to do any of this shit to a minor.

Seriously, in a sane society your kind would be put to death.

Your kind need to stay the fuck away from children.

 

[2aguy]

Everyone knows you're lying, and they know why -- you're trying to stir up hate and violence against a scapegoat minority, for the purpose of gaining political power. Yes, it is that obvious.

It's a classic fascist tactic. If this was 1933 Germany, you'd be telling us how Jews drink the blood of children.

And yes, I am pointing out how all the trans-haters act like Nazis. Because they do.

Wow...the stupid is strong with you.........they want to put children on puberty blockers that will sterilize them....this isn't about "hating," these children, this is about stopping these monsters from mutilating and sterilizing these children.....you evil asshole.

 

[Seymour Flops]

I’ll clarify. Most of the arguments against these legislative bans is that they do not just ban surgery (which is not common nor is recommended for those under 18) by the relevant medical professions) but they also ban puberty blockers, hormone treatments. In addition, states may have bans on children being able to use alternative names or pronouns not in line with their birth certificate which would inhibit social transitioning.

OK, I finally got one right!

Disagree in part - there is no “transgender action industry”…this needs to be dealt with between the parents, child and their doctors. There are always going to be those parents or doctors who are unethical, but that is no different than any other medical situation. Agree with approaching it slowly.

"Industry," is a characterization, and I understand that you disagree with it. I don't think it is a coincidence that the sharp rise in treatments for Gender Dysphoria came after the Affordable Health Care Act forced all health insurance policies to cover transgender treatments of all kind. I believe that the free market is the best way to serve people in the overwhelming majority of cases. But when you have profit-motivated doctors making money off of parents and kids who have little education and have been influenced by Twitter, more than by books, they are ripe to be taken advantage of. European countries, whose medical care is not incentivized by profit, is dialing back on transgender treatments for youth.

Very much don’t agree. IMO, the professional organizations themselves act as regulators and determine, via evidence, what the best course of treatment is. I hear the “the profit motive” brought up quite often but no one has ever been able to show that to be the case and this seems to be the ONLY arm of counseling where these claims are being made. Self acceptance may well involve some level of transitioning.

Any counselor or medical person with any knowledge of adolescents would know that teenagers will often make poor decisions, left to their own devices. Common sense would tell anyone that waiting until you have a little more maturity before making decisions about altering your body is the best approach. Social transition all you want. It used to be that even for adults, they had to spend months or years living as their perceived gender before they could get surgery. What's the rush, now?

There are a number of illnesses and conditions that can involve life-changing treatments and consent depends on the age of the child. Older children have enough awareness to have input on their treatment. In addition, these treatments do not have little evidence of benefit, research has shown significant benefit in certain key metrics.

Is Gender Dyphoria a physical illness? Is it a mental disorder? Is it neither? Asking your opinion.

Obviously, in a rare case such as a fifteen year old having breast cancer, a radical surgery like mastectomy might be needed. The child should have that surgery, even though she might not fully understand the ramifications. Waiting until eighteen might be a death sentence. There is no such danger for a fifteen year old female who says that she is a boy.

What the Science on Gender-Affirming Care for Transgender Kids Really Shows

Laws that ban gender-affirming treatment ignore the wealth of research demonstrating its benefits for trans people’s health

www.scientificamerican.com

The truth is that data from more than a dozen studies of more than 30,000 transgender and gender-diverse young people consistently show that access to gender-affirming care is associated with better mental health outcomes—and that lack of access to such care is associated with higher rates of suicidality, depression and self-harming behavior. (Gender diversity refers to the extent to which a person’s gendered behaviors, appearance and identities are culturally incongruent with the sex they were assigned at birth. Gender-diverse people can identify along the transgender spectrum, but not all do.) Major medical organizations, including the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, the Endocrine Society, the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association, have published policy statements and guidelines on how to provide age-appropriate gender-affirming care. All of those medical societies find such care to be evidence-based and medically necessary.


Note: I’m not talking about surgery.

I

Notice that the headline image of that article is not a medical procedure, but an LBGT-Q protest. No scientific publication would do that, even if it calls itself "scientific." I recommend that when you read an article in the popular media, rather than in scholarly journals that report research, that you click on their links and read the research that they are based on. For example in research linked by your scientific American article, I found this:

The statement that puberty blockers improve the mental health of young people with gender dysphoria stems from a seminal study by de Vries and colleagues in 2011.

However, the population studied—ie, youth with gender dysphoria beginning in early childhood and no significant co-occurring mental health difficulties—markedly differs from the population today, which is characterised by post-pubescent young people reporting a trans identity for the first time, often in the context of significant mental health problems. This difference raises the question of whether this study is still applicable to the majority of currently presenting cases.


Further, the magnitude of the post-treatment improvements in mental health was small. The depression (Beck Depression Inventory) scores improved by around 3 out of 63 points, and the global function (Children's Global Assessment Scale) scores improved by around 4 out of 100 points, and other measures of psychological health had similar improvements of marginal clinical significance—or no improvement at all.


Such modest gains have to be carefully weighed against the risks of puberty blockers to bone health and fertility, and the uncertainty of the long-term health effects of interrupting puberty.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(21)00235-2/fulltext

That part in blue is key. Other mental disorders are often comorbid with Gender Dysphoria.

Depression:

Childhood adversities are common among trans people and associated with adult depression and suicidality

Trans people suffer from increased rates of depression and suicidality even after gender-affirming medical interventions. The present study aims to ex…

www.sciencedirect.com

Psychiatric Axis I Comorbidities among Patients with Gender Dysphoria

<i>Objectives</i>. Cooccurring psychiatric disorders influence the outcome and prognosis of gender dysphoria. The aim of this study is to assess psychiatric comorbidities in a group of patients. <i>Methods</i>. Eighty-three patients requesting sex reassignment surgery (SRS) were recruited and...

www.hindawi.com

Autism:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3109/09540261.2015.1111199

Largest study to date confirms overlap between autism and gender diversity

People who do not identify with the sex they were assigned at birth are three to six times as likely to be autistic as cisgender people are.

www.spectrumnews.org

Before they start giving children cross-sex hormones to stop them from developing normally, they should be in therapy to determine how much of their purported Gender Dysphoria may be depression, or vice versa. That is not possible if the medical provider is telling parents that it needs to be started sooner rather than later.

As far as AU, to me that is medical malpractice to chemically treat a child with autism for confusion about their gender. Children on the autism spectrum are very difficult to understand and struggle to express themselves. Any therapist that says she can tell that a child with autism has Gender Dysphoria, should lose her license immediately.

I'm not opposed to hormone and surgery for children for political reasons. If there were sufficient evidence of mental health benefits significant enough to outweigh the known detriments and risks, I'd be all for it.

In fact, cross-sex hormones have actually been shown with valid and apolitical research to alleviate depression. That may be the reason for the anectdotal stories of kids being happier when given puberty blockers.

 

[Coyote]

OK, I finally got one right!

First, let me thank you for offering a real discussion, that provokes thought and makes me examine my own positions a bit harder. It is usually impossible here.

"Industry," is a characterization, and I understand that you disagree with it. I don't think it is a coincidence that the sharp rise in treatments for Gender Dysphoria came after the Affordable Health Care Act forced all health insurance policies to cover transgender treatments of all kind. I believe that the free market is the best way to serve people in the overwhelming majority of cases. But when you have profit-motivated doctors making money off of parents and kids who have little education and have been influenced by Twitter, more than by books, they are ripe to be taken advantage of. European countries, whose medical care is not incentivized by profit, is dialing back on transgender treatments for youth.

Well… I don’t agree with it being related to insurance or Obamacare. I think what insurance covers should be driven by protocols developed by the relevant medical professionals who keep abreast of research, not by societ’s “feelings”, politicians or special interest groups.

In terms of research, there is a pretty good body of evidence that gender affirming treatment (puberty blockers, hormones) have improved mental health and reduced suicide ideation in transgender youth.

The Evidence for Trans Youth Gender-Affirming Medical Care

Research suggests gender-affirming medical care results in better mental health.

www.psychologytoday.com

In terms of research, niether of those treatments is without risk.

The Mayo Clinic has a good site covering pros, cons and criteria for recommending puberty blockers.

Puberty blockers for transgender and gender-diverse youth

Understand how puberty blockers work to suppress puberty. Learn about their benefits, side effects and long-term effects.

www.mayoclinic.org

In terms of hormones for teens, there are pros and cons for use as well and hormones are not administered until 16, giving them time to be certain it is indeed gender dysphoria.

Another issue to consider is the paucity of research on transgender youth overall. This article looks at the pros and cons of different recommended protocols, and it’s complicated.

I do have question the “incentivized by profit” statement. How is treatment by puberty blockers and hormones, for a tiny minority of Americans profitable? IMO, profit lies in the extensive array of elective plastic surgeries now available.

When you mention influence by Twitter and social media “influencers”, I whole heartedly concur. That an observable phenomenon occurring around a variety of issues.

This is one example I read about:

Is Social Media Causing a Mass Psychogenic Epidemic?

German doctors warn about a strange new outbreak of neurological cases.

www.psychologytoday.com

Any counselor or medical person with any knowledge of adolescents would know that teenagers will often make poor decisions, left to their own devices. Common sense would tell anyone that waiting until you have a little more maturity before making decisions about altering your body is the best approach. Social transition all you want. It used to be that even for adults, they had to spend months or years living as their perceived gender before they could get surgery. What's the rush, now?

That is true, hence auto insurance rates, minimum ages for drinking, smoking, owning guns etc.

So I do think that is a good point.

Is Gender Dyphoria a physical illness? Is it a mental disorder? Is it neither? Asking your opinion.

I’m not so sure, and I also think this division between “mental” and “physical” needs to be rethought. What we think of as “mental” illness can often be caused by an interplay of genes, physical abnormalities in the brain, environment and predispositions. In addition, they can create actual observable changes in the brain itself and other parts of the body, thus a ”physical” illness. Physical illnesses likewise can create mental issues and changes in the brain’ functioning causing mental illness. We need to look at ourselves holistically, not divided.

I think gender dysphoria is not well enough understood and studied, particularly in youth, to really know what it is. The population is very small and socially ostracized. From what I have read, when it is genuine, it starts to show at a young age and persists. That makes me wonder if there is an organic component involved somewhere, most likely the brain.
There is limited research as of yet, but here is one article.

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity

Transgender people report discomfort with their birth sex and a strong identification with the opposite sex. The current study was designed to shed further light on the question of whether the brains of transgender people resemble their birth sex or their ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Obviously, in a rare case such as a fifteen year old having breast cancer, a radical surgery like mastectomy might be needed. The child should have that surgery, even though she might not fully understand the ramifications. Waiting until eighteen might be a death sentence. There is no such danger for a fifteen year old female who says that she is a boy.

Agree. No surgery under 18.

Notice that the headline image of that article is not a medical procedure, but an LBGT-Q protest. No scientific publication would do that, even if it calls itself "scientific." I recommend that when you read an article in the popular media, rather than in scholarly journals that report research, that you click on their links and read the research that they are based on. For example in research linked by your scientific American article, I found this:

The statement that puberty blockers improve the mental health of young people with gender dysphoria stems from a seminal study by de Vries and colleagues in 2011.

However, the population studied—ie, youth with gender dysphoria beginning in early childhood and no significant co-occurring mental health difficulties—markedly differs from the population today, which is characterised by post-pubescent young people reporting a trans identity for the first time, often in the context of significant mental health problems. This difference raises the question of whether this study is still applicable to the majority of currently presenting cases.


Further, the magnitude of the post-treatment improvements in mental health was small. The depression (Beck Depression Inventory) scores improved by around 3 out of 63 points, and the global function (Children's Global Assessment Scale) scores improved by around 4 out of 100 points, and other measures of psychological health had similar improvements of marginal clinical significance—or no improvement at all.


Such modest gains have to be carefully weighed against the risks of puberty blockers to bone health and fertility, and the uncertainty of the long-term health effects of interrupting puberty.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(21)00235-2/fulltext

That part in blue is key. Other mental disorders are often comorbid with Gender Dysphoria.

Depression:

Childhood adversities are common among trans people and associated with adult depression and suicidality

Trans people suffer from increased rates of depression and suicidality even after gender-affirming medical interventions. The present study aims to ex…

www.sciencedirect.com

Psychiatric Axis I Comorbidities among Patients with Gender Dysphoria

<i>Objectives</i>. Cooccurring psychiatric disorders influence the outcome and prognosis of gender dysphoria. The aim of this study is to assess psychiatric comorbidities in a group of patients. <i>Methods</i>. Eighty-three patients requesting sex reassignment surgery (SRS) were recruited and...

www.hindawi.com

Autism:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3109/09540261.2015.1111199

Largest study to date confirms overlap between autism and gender diversity

People who do not identify with the sex they were assigned at birth are three to six times as likely to be autistic as cisgender people are.

www.spectrumnews.org

Good points.

Before they start giving children cross-sex hormones to stop them from developing normally, they should be in therapy to determine how much of their purported Gender Dysphoria may be depression, or vice versa. That is not possible if the medical provider is telling parents that it needs to be started sooner rather than later.

I agree, but if the medical is not requiring counseling therapy therapy first, then he is not following his professional guidelines is he?

My feelings on this is a cautious, individualized approach to each case, involving child, family, and specialists.

As far as AU, to me that is medical malpractice to chemically treat a child with autism for confusion about their gender. Children on the autism spectrum are very difficult to understand and struggle to express themselves. Any therapist that says she can tell that a child with autism has Gender Dysphoria, should lose her license immediately.

AU certainly complicates any diagnosis and treatment. I would agree that if a child is diagnosed with autism, a therapist has to be extremely careful. It isn’t unheard of to also have other disorders on top of it though.

I'm not opposed to hormone and surgery for children for political reasons. If there were sufficient evidence of mental health benefits significant enough to outweigh the known detriments and risks, I'd be all for it.

There are other studies beyond the one I originally posted that indicate improved mental health with puberty blockers/ hormones. I think this needs to be weighed alongside the adverse affects of not doing it.

What strikes me as reasonable (as a non medical person) is a sequence of treatment that is:

1. Counseling
2. Continued counseling and social transition.
3. Continued counseling and puberty blockers.
4. consideration of hormones.

Each step should be done based on the best available research.

What is really sad though is the near impossibility of social transitioning in many parts of the country, and the lack of social/community support. Studies have shown that this is critical to the well being and health of a transgender minor. With better support, perhaps there would not be a need to go further. Not all transgender adults undergo surgical transition either, many don’t and are fine with stopping at hormones.

In fact, cross-sex hormones have actually been shown with valid and apolitical research to alleviate depression. That may be the reason for the anectdotal stories of kids being happier when given puberty blockers.

Interesting!

 

[hadit]

Do you want a live….opposite sex child from what you have….or do you want a dead child?

That is the emotional black mail used to push sterilizing and mutilating young children by the democrat party…..

Now, actual research….research the leftists controlling the psychiatric profession in this country refuse to do……shows that mutilating and sterilizing children causes increased death rates….

The longest-term studies, with the strongest methodologies, reported markedly increased morbidity and mortality and a persistently high risk of post-transition suicide among transitioned adults

European Reviews Find That ‘Gender Transition’ Doesn’t Solve Mental Problems

pjmedia.com

The democrat party is insane and evil……

You weren't supposed to notice that.

 

[Seymour Flops]

First, let me thank you for offering a real discussion, that provokes thought and makes me examine my own positions a bit harder. It is usually impossible here.

I thank you for the same! Refreshing to have a discussion on this topic that doesn't degenerate into:

Faggot!

Nazi!

Sorry for the delay in responding to your well thought out post. I had to take a week off the board to honor a wager. A lot of what you wrote, I either agree with, or it makes sense even if I don't fully agree. If you don't mind, I'll only respond to what I take issue with in it.

Well… I don’t agree with it being related to insurance or Obamacare. I think what insurance covers should be driven by protocols developed by the relevant medical professionals who keep abreast of research, not by societ’s “feelings”, politicians or special interest groups.

Not true once government starts mandating what must and must not be covered by health insurance in order for the policies to comply. Then it is all about political influence.

In terms of research, there is a pretty good body of evidence that gender affirming treatment (puberty blockers, hormones) have improved mental health and reduced suicide ideation in transgender youth.

The Evidence for Trans Youth Gender-Affirming Medical Care

Research suggests gender-affirming medical care results in better mental health.

www.psychologytoday.com

I want to look at the research listed in that article, before I respond fully I will say that the author of the Psychology Today article did a good job of commenting. This was a key point:

This study is from the United Kingdom. They followed 101 adolescents who received pubertal suppression at the beginning of the study and 100 adolescents who, for a range of reasons, were deemed by the team not ready to start pubertal suppression and thus did not receive it over the course of the study. Both groups received supportive psychotherapy. Both groups saw improvement in mental health. While the pubertal suppression group had a 5-point higher mean score on the study's psychological functioning scale at the end of the study, the difference was not statistically significant.

I haven't seen a study of transgender treatments yet that isolated the variable properly, in other words ensured that the only relevant difference between the control and experimental group is the subjec of the study. If you only look at transgender kids who get both hormones and supportive psychotherapy, you will see an improvement in mental health. That doesn't mean that it was the hormones that led to improvement, when there is decades of evidence and experience that supportive psychotherapy is associated with better mental health.

Another issue I have with research on this topic is that I have yet to see any statistical research about suicide in people who got hormone blockers as children vs. people who did not. I see terms like "suicidality," "suicidal ideation," and "attempted suicide." That data is gathered by means of questionaires. Someone taking a survey about transgender treatments knows fully well what answers the researchers are hoping for.

Actually killing oneself is a much different act than checking the YES box on a form. The number of persons who did or did not commit suicide is a concrete statistic. I'd pay attention to such a study, more so than one that gathers data by soliciting answers in a survey conducted by a gender clinic.

There are no studies showing reduction in suicide in people who get such treatments. So, politicians and people engaged in political debate are in error when they say that we must allow early medical and surgical transitions of children in order to save lives that would be lost to suicide.

In terms of research, niether of those treatments is without risk.

The Mayo Clinic has a good site covering pros, cons and criteria for recommending puberty blockers.

Puberty blockers for transgender and gender-diverse youth

Understand how puberty blockers work to suppress puberty. Learn about their benefits, side effects and long-term effects.

www.mayoclinic.org

In terms of hormones for teens, there are pros and cons for use as well and hormones are not administered until 16, giving them time to be certain it is indeed gender dysphoria.

The Mayo Clinic disagrees with that 16 year minimum. From your link:

What is the typical treatment time frame?​

For most children, puberty begins around ages 10 to 11, though puberty sometimes starts earlier. The effect of pubertal blockers depends on when a child begins to take the medication. GnRH analogue treatment can begin at the start of puberty to delay secondary sex characteristics. In slightly later stages of puberty, the treatment could be used to stop menstruation or erections or to prevent further development of undesired secondary sex characteristics.

While most children take the medication for a few years, every child is different. After suppressing puberty for a few years, your child might decide to stop puberty blocking therapy or pursue other hormone treatments.

Prevent erections? Why?

Another issue to consider is the paucity of research on transgender youth overall. This article looks at the pros and cons of different recommended protocols, and it’s complicated.

I do have question the “incentivized by profit” statement. How is treatment by puberty blockers and hormones, for a tiny minority of Americans profitable? IMO, profit lies in the extensive array of elective plastic surgeries now available.

I would say it is a growing market, for sure. Especially due to the huge increase in children identifying as female-to-male transgeders. Or more correctly children identified by adults as female-to-male transgenders. It seems that a girl cannot just be a tomboy anymore until she grows out of it, or learns that she is lesbian. No, we have to tell her she is actually a boy, "trapped in the wrong body," and start the hormones at age ten or eleven or she might kill herself. You may not say that, but transactivists do.

All doctors specialize in a narrow part of the treatment market. Clearly there are doctors, thearapists and surgeons who are happy to take whatever money they can from treating Gender Dyphoria. If they could make more money doing non-transgender cosmetic surgeries, they would do that. No doubt many cosmetic surgeons do surgeries like facial feminization on women and transwomen. They are happy that their patient base grows. with the transgenderization movement.

When you mention influence by Twitter and social media “influencers”, I whole heartedly concur. That an observable phenomenon occurring around a variety of issues.

Yes. Tik-Tok strains my love of the 1st Amendment.

I’m not so sure, and I also think this division between “mental” and “physical” needs to be rethought. What we think of as “mental” illness can often be caused by an interplay of genes, physical abnormalities in the brain, environment and predispositions. In addition, they can create actual observable changes in the brain itself and other parts of the body, thus a ”physical” illness. Physical illnesses likewise can create mental issues and changes in the brain’ functioning causing mental illness. We need to look at ourselves holistically, not divided.

There absolutely might be some physical component of the Gender Dyphoria disorder. I think activists are jumping too quickly on poorly run studies that supposedly show that "transgenders' brains are just like the gender they identify as!" One question that gets them to drop that subject like a hot rock is "Does that mean that no one should be given hormones unless it is verified that they have the transgender brain features?"

I think gender dysphoria is not well enough understood and studied, particularly in youth, to really know what it is. The population is very small and socially ostracized. From what I have read, when it is genuine, it starts to show at a young age and persists. That makes me wonder if there is an organic component involved somewhere, most likely the brain.
There is limited research as of yet, but here is one article.

Brain Sex in Transgender Women Is Shifted towards Gender Identity

Transgender people report discomfort with their birth sex and a strong identification with the opposite sex. The current study was designed to shed further light on the question of whether the brains of transgender people resemble their birth sex or their ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I wouldnt' be surprised if there was. If there was a person who believed he was Napoleon all his life, his autopsy might show some brain abnormality that could explain it. That does not mean that the guy really was Napoleon all along and that the treatment should have been a GoFundMe account to raise money for him to invade Russia.

I agree, but if the medical is not requiring counseling therapy therapy first, then he is not following his professional guidelines is he?

Again from your Mayo Clinic article:

What are the criteria for use of pubertal blockers?​

To begin using pubertal blockers, a child must:

• Show a long-lasting and intense pattern of gender nonconformity or gender dysphoria
• Have gender dysphoria that began or worsened at the start of puberty
• Address any psychological, medical or social problems that could interfere with treatment
• Have entered the early stage of puberty
• Provide informed consent

If the gender dysphoria began at the start of puberty, and hormones are begun at the start of puberty, how could they have shown a long-lasting and intense pattern?

How can a child at the start of puberty provide informed consent? Will the eleven year old be told that puberty blockers will prevent their penis from developing, thus making it unusable in a future vaginoplasty? That's what happened to Jazz Jennings, so they used part of her colon for her vagina. She has never had an orgasm and likely never will. Is an eleven year old really going to understand all of that and more?

I know you feel that sixteen is the minimum age for hormones, but that is not what is being practiced.

My feelings on this is a cautious, individualized approach to each case, involving child, family, and specialists.

Yes, but the state has an interest in protecting children from profiteering or agendized mental health professions and from parents with Munchausen by Proxy, something I see a lot of in Special Education. Current evidence suggests little proven benefit from these early treatments to make up for the obvious and proven detriments.

AU certainly complicates any diagnosis and treatment. I would agree that if a child is diagnosed with autism, a therapist has to be extremely careful. It isn’t unheard of to also have other disorders on top of it though.

Yes, there is a lot of co-morbity with AU. There are a lot of parents who mistake the fact that their child with ADHD doesn't pick up on social cues, due to being unable to pay close attention for their child having AU which also causes lack of awareness of social cues. Psychology is a fascinating field and each personality is different. We can identify patterns and label a person with this or that disability, but we have to be careful making life-altering decisions based on what is essentially guesswork.

There are other studies beyond the one I originally posted that indicate improved mental health with puberty blockers/ hormones. I think this needs to be weighed alongside the adverse affects of not doing it.

We need more studies across longer times. Also, we need studies not conducted specifically by gender clinics and funded by pharmacuetical companies.

What strikes me as reasonable (as a non medical person) is a sequence of treatment that is:

1. Counseling
2. Continued counseling and social transition.
3. Continued counseling and puberty blockers.
4. consideration of hormones.

Each step should be done based on the best available research.

I'm all for counselling and social transitioning. Years of it before we take irreversable steps in treating people who cannot give informed consent.

What is really sad though is the near impossibility of social transitioning in many parts of the country, and the lack of social/community support. Studies have shown that this is critical to the well being and health of a transgender minor. With better support, perhaps there would not be a need to go further. Not all transgender adults undergo surgical transition either, many don’t and are fine with stopping at hormones.

I'm not sure that is true, about parts of the country making it nearly impossible to social transition. Do you have examples?

 

[Resnic]

Sterilizing, trannifying, mutilating and pussyfying kids has never been needed to save kids for thousands of years. Who in their right mind would think it suddenly saves kids now?