Think You Know Who Won WWII?

[Unkotare]

You seem to love a leader that beat and berated his shell shocked troops...

He slapped one soldier and this is your definition of him as a whole? Do you think that's reasonable?

The only reason he stopped was direct orders from Eisenhower...

You don't think he had time to slap a few more if that somehow encapsulates his entire military career? Stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

My perception of Patton is that in a personal search for glory he was careless of the lives of the soldiers under his command.

Clearly, your entire database on Patton comes from one baised movie

On the contrary, my perception of Patton comes from extensive study, over a period of 40 years, of WWII - particularly in Europe.

One small example. In Sicily Patton left the hard slog of defeating the Germans on the East coast and around Etna to the British. He charged around in the strategically unimportant West 'capturing' cities like Palermo defended, if at all, by remnants of Italian units. When he eventually reached a more strongly defended town he attacked head-on with scant preparation and incurred heavy and needless casualties.

That this third-rate general saw fit to strut around with two pearl-handed revolvers reveals much about him.

Uh huh.

^ Not Patton

^ Patton

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Also when Ike called him to the meeting about relieving 101st at Bastogne, Patton already knew why he was being asked to attend and gave his general ordered to draw up a plan to relieve Bastogne

So when he was asked what Third Army could do, he already had a plan formed and ready to be implemented

How many lives did he save?

 

[regent]

Also when Ike called him to the meeting about relieving 101st at Bastogne, Patton already knew why he was being asked to attend and gave his general ordered to draw up a plan to relieve Bastogne

So when he was asked what Third Army could do, he already had a plan formed and ready to be implemented

How many lives did he save?

So Ike had Patton in the right slot, anything higher might have meant some disasters and anything lower not utilizing his ability. Perhaps the greatest military need is to find people with the ability to place the right people in those right slots? America being a democracy and all, the American people have frowned on misusing its troops and Hitler and Stalin didn't have that problem, and our casualty counts show that.
But Patton always knew he was being checked by someone higher, and in the end that checking worked out.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

"Bypass Trier. It would take too many divisions to capture it." Omar Bradley to Patton

"Have already taken city, do you want me to give it back?" -- Patton's reply

 

[Camp]

Also when Ike called him to the meeting about relieving 101st at Bastogne, Patton already knew why he was being asked to attend and gave his general ordered to draw up a plan to relieve Bastogne

So when he was asked what Third Army could do, he already had a plan formed and ready to be implemented

How many lives did he save?

So Ike had Patton in the right slot, anything higher might have meant some disasters and anything lower not utilizing his ability. Perhaps the greatest military need is to find people with the ability to place the right people in those right slots? America being a democracy and all, the American people have frowned on misusing its troops and Hitler and Stalin didn't have that problem, and our casualty counts show that.
But Patton always knew he was being checked by someone higher, and in the end that checking worked out.

Patton needed more than one commander to keep him in check. He came under the direct command of Gen. Omar Bradley and Bradley kept him in check. If Patton had gotten his way and not been held in check at Bastogne he would have turned victory into defeat.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Also when Ike called him to the meeting about relieving 101st at Bastogne, Patton already knew why he was being asked to attend and gave his general ordered to draw up a plan to relieve Bastogne

So when he was asked what Third Army could do, he already had a plan formed and ready to be implemented

How many lives did he save?

So Ike had Patton in the right slot, anything higher might have meant some disasters and anything lower not utilizing his ability. Perhaps the greatest military need is to find people with the ability to place the right people in those right slots? America being a democracy and all, the American people have frowned on misusing its troops and Hitler and Stalin didn't have that problem, and our casualty counts show that.
But Patton always knew he was being checked by someone higher, and in the end that checking worked out.

No, not at all. Patton was the best military strategist the Allies had; were he and Bradly to have changed jobs (as they did before the Soldier Slap incident) he would have closed the Falaise Pocket, and would NEVER have supported Operation Market Garden

Looking back you have to wonder if Uncle Joe was behind the publicity around the Soldier Slap and trying to derail Patton

 

[regent]

Also when Ike called him to the meeting about relieving 101st at Bastogne, Patton already knew why he was being asked to attend and gave his general ordered to draw up a plan to relieve Bastogne

So when he was asked what Third Army could do, he already had a plan formed and ready to be implemented

How many lives did he save?

So Ike had Patton in the right slot, anything higher might have meant some disasters and anything lower not utilizing his ability. Perhaps the greatest military need is to find people with the ability to place the right people in those right slots? America being a democracy and all, the American people have frowned on misusing its troops and Hitler and Stalin didn't have that problem, and our casualty counts show that.
But Patton always knew he was being checked by someone higher, and in the end that checking worked out.

No, not at all. Patton was the best military strategist the Allies had; were he and Bradly to have changed jobs (as they did before the Soldier Slap incident) he would have closed the Falaise Pocket, and would NEVER have supported Operation Market Garden

Looking back you have to wonder if Uncle Joe was behind the publicity around the Soldier Slap and trying to derail Patton

How silly of us not to realize that Stalin was behind the slap, the real question then becomes was this all a soviet plot, if so was Patton just an innocent party?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

So Ike had Patton in the right slot, anything higher might have meant some disasters and anything lower not utilizing his ability. Perhaps the greatest military need is to find people with the ability to place the right people in those right slots? America being a democracy and all, the American people have frowned on misusing its troops and Hitler and Stalin didn't have that problem, and our casualty counts show that.
But Patton always knew he was being checked by someone higher, and in the end that checking worked out.

No, not at all. Patton was the best military strategist the Allies had; were he and Bradly to have changed jobs (as they did before the Soldier Slap incident) he would have closed the Falaise Pocket, and would NEVER have supported Operation Market Garden

Looking back you have to wonder if Uncle Joe was behind the publicity around the Soldier Slap and trying to derail Patton

How silly of us not to realize that Stalin was behind the slap, the real question then becomes was this all a soviet plot, if so was Patton just an innocent party?

Not behind the Slap, but behind the PR to derail Patton because of the Slap. See? The Slap -- so what?

Stalin had near complete control of the Allies pace into Germany. On faulty intelligence, Ike even sent Patton to the non-existent National Redoubt, again stalling Third Army's Drive into Berlin.

 

[Camp]

Also when Ike called him to the meeting about relieving 101st at Bastogne, Patton already knew why he was being asked to attend and gave his general ordered to draw up a plan to relieve Bastogne

So when he was asked what Third Army could do, he already had a plan formed and ready to be implemented

How many lives did he save?

So Ike had Patton in the right slot, anything higher might have meant some disasters and anything lower not utilizing his ability. Perhaps the greatest military need is to find people with the ability to place the right people in those right slots? America being a democracy and all, the American people have frowned on misusing its troops and Hitler and Stalin didn't have that problem, and our casualty counts show that.
But Patton always knew he was being checked by someone higher, and in the end that checking worked out.

No, not at all. Patton was the best military strategist the Allies had; were he and Bradly to have changed jobs (as they did before the Soldier Slap incident) he would have closed the Falaise Pocket, and would NEVER have supported Operation Market Garden

Looking back you have to wonder if Uncle Joe was behind the publicity around the Soldier Slap and trying to derail Patton

To bad you have to bring in the nonsense about Uncle Joe.

 

[Camp]

No, not at all. Patton was the best military strategist the Allies had; were he and Bradly to have changed jobs (as they did before the Soldier Slap incident) he would have closed the Falaise Pocket, and would NEVER have supported Operation Market Garden

Looking back you have to wonder if Uncle Joe was behind the publicity around the Soldier Slap and trying to derail Patton

How silly of us not to realize that Stalin was behind the slap, the real question then becomes was this all a soviet plot, if so was Patton just an innocent party?

Not behind the Slap, but behind the PR to derail Patton because of the Slap. See? The Slap -- so what?

Stalin had near complete control of the Allies pace into Germany. On faulty intelligence, Ike even sent Patton to the non-existent National Redoubt, again stalling Third Army's Drive into Berlin.

Now you are on to something, not the PR slap thing, the Nat. Redoubt diversion.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

How silly of us not to realize that Stalin was behind the slap, the real question then becomes was this all a soviet plot, if so was Patton just an innocent party?

Not behind the Slap, but behind the PR to derail Patton because of the Slap. See? The Slap -- so what?

Stalin had near complete control of the Allies pace into Germany. On faulty intelligence, Ike even sent Patton to the non-existent National Redoubt, again stalling Third Army's Drive into Berlin.

Now you are on to something, not the PR slap thing, the Nat. Redoubt diversion.

Again, Patton told Ike, there was no National Redoubt, but after talking with Russian General, Ike ordered Patton to halt his drive on to Berlin and head to the "National Redoubt"

 

[Peterf]

My perception of Patton is that in a personal search for glory he was careless of the lives of the soldiers under his command.

Yep, old blood and guts.
I'd like to think that many American commanders kept in mind two things: taking their objective and saving lives. A number of commanders did exactly that, but a few also used the war to enhance their egos. Generally the enlisted soon knew the difference
I don't know that Patton had ego in mind so much as objectives.
One of the sad things about some professional soldiers is that they spend all their time simply waiting for a war, and when one comes they have to make the most of it.

How many lives would have been saved had the US and Brits won the war 6 months sooner and been in Berlin ahead of the Russian?

Probably quite a lot of lives, mainly Russian and German.

FDR had agreed with Stalin at Yalta that the Soviets would take Berlin and the Eastern half of Germany. Strategy was decided by the president, not the generals. So neither Patton's nor Montgomery's ideas of a major strike on a narrow front had a chance of being adopted.

 

[Steven_R]

You seem to love a leader that beat and berated his shell shocked troops...

He slapped one soldier and this is your definition of him as a whole? Do you think that's reasonable?

My perception of Patton is that in a personal search for glory he was careless of the lives of the soldiers under his command.

Yep. The Sicily Campaign showed that Patton was more concerned with Patton than he was with US troops. He wanted the glory and was willing to pay for it with their blood.

Alexander pushed to have Patton Court-Martialed over Sicily, but Ike wouldn't have any of it, largely due to his friendship with Patton.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

He slapped one soldier and this is your definition of him as a whole? Do you think that's reasonable?

My perception of Patton is that in a personal search for glory he was careless of the lives of the soldiers under his command.

Yep. The Sicily Campaign showed that Patton was more concerned with Patton than he was with US troops. He wanted the glory and was willing to pay for it with their blood.

Alexander pushed to have Patton Court-Martialed over Sicily, but Ike wouldn't have any of it, largely due to his friendship with Patton.

George C Scott was not really Patton

"Patton told the army group commander in no uncertain terms that he wanted his army unleashed. He explained 'it would be inexpedient politically for the Seventh Army not to have equal glory in the final stage of the campaign.' Patton asked for authorization to drive north to split the Axis forces and to clear out remaining resistance in the west. Alexander agreed, providing Seventh Army hold a crucial road network near Caltanissetta in the center of the island. 'If I do what I am going to do,' Patton confided to his diary, 'there is no need of holding anything, but 'it's a mean man who won't promise,' so I did.'

Patton wasted no time putting his new plan into action. He created a Provisional Corps under the command of Major General Geoffrey Keyes, his deputy commander, and sent it northwest towards Palermo while Bradley's II Corps set out for the north coast, knifing across the island's center through tough German defenders. Facing light resistance from largely dispirited Italian troops, Keyes' troops 'moved so fast that often the German and Italian 88s [88mm anti-tank guns], which they captured en route, had not been pointed around or set up to shoot against them.' On July 22 Truscott's Division entered Palermo after covering an astonishing 100 miles in just 72 hours. Wild celebrations and ebullient Sicilians greeted the Americans. Support for Italy's Fascist Dictator Benito Mussolini was nowhere to be seen. The next day the 45th Division of Bradley's II Corps reached the coast at Termini, 25 miles to the east. Until he took matters into his own hands, Patton wrote in his diary, 'Monty was trying to command both armies and getting away with it.' Now Seventh Army was making its mark."

http://www.historynet.com/world-war-ii-general-george-s-pattons-race-to-capture-messina.htm

No one should remain ignorant, getting all of their information from one movie

 

[Steven_R]

Go read Monty's and Alexander's memoirs. Patton "lost" the orders he got to not take Messina.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Go read Monty's and Alexander's memoirs. Patton "lost" the orders he got to not take Messina.

After Kasserine Pass, the Brits had no respect for the US Army. Patton was reestablishing the brand.

 

[regent]

Go read Monty's and Alexander's memoirs. Patton "lost" the orders he got to not take Messina.

After Kasserine Pass, the Brits had no respect for the US Army. Patton was reestablishing the brand.

After Dunkirk the British had little to crow about, but the disparaging of other armies is as old as warfare.
MacArthur who should have known better said he didn't think much of Australian soldier, but then came Buna. We sterotyped the Japanese soldier as nearsighted and so on but found out differently. It may be what armies and nations do to raise their morale and feel braver, sort of like bar-talk, or maybe board-talk.
Kasserine was the first experience for the Americans and the first combat is a weeding experience, garrison officers replaced and so on.

 

[SayMyName]

In the end, it worked out the way it should have. The Nazis were crushed. It was best that the Soviets had that opportunity, for I doubt that word "crushed" could have been used if the Western Allies made it to Berlin first. I seem to recall too many old SS around in the Western side (Bad Windsheim, Coburg, Rothenburg, Nuremburg, et al.) when I attended family parties of one of my ex-wives, including my own damn wedding. *wink* Good parties, though.

 

[Peterf]

My perception of Patton is that in a personal search for glory he was careless of the lives of the soldiers under his command.

Yep. The Sicily Campaign showed that Patton was more concerned with Patton than he was with US troops. He wanted the glory and was willing to pay for it with their blood.

Alexander pushed to have Patton Court-Martialed over Sicily, but Ike wouldn't have any of it, largely due to his friendship with Patton.

George C Scott was not really Patton




No one should remain ignorant, getting all of their information from one movie

Nobody thinks that this Hollywood movie or any other can be relied upon for historical accuracy. Certainly not Steven R or me.

Ike would not criticise Patton in public for the simple reason that Americans needed a 'brilliant general' to admire and in the want of a real one Patton was hyped up to fill that role. His soldiers knew that he was a barely competent braggart but no one was going to ask them for an opinion.