This will go to the USSC

[otto105]

It is amazing how the court system is partisan when it doesn't rule in the left's favor. Otherwise, hey it's just a good reading of the law. amiright?

No

 

[bendog]

not that I found.

It's nothing that really interests me, but I think it's actually in a law. busybee may be clearer than I am, but my recollection is that in BvG the problem was the election certfication deadline was approaching, and the Fla Sup Ct mandated a state recount. The recount would not be done in time, and in any event no recount was really going to be that certain (different voting methods in different counties had different error margins). And that was O'Connor's point.

And Gore most likely got the same # of votes as W, or even less, unless he somehow got to count the votes by retired Jews in Dade County who couldn't have possibly meant to have voted for Buchanan even thought the screwed up ballots actually showed they did. And possibly the Fla Sup Ct was playing games, because ultimately .... if nobody else can call a state election, it goes to the legislature ... and Fla's legislature was gop.

O'Connor's point wasn't so much who won. She wanted to retire and she wanted W to win. But we just need a way to count votes by people who have some guideline and oversite to not cheat. Trump's called that into question without being able to show the cheating. O'Connor said Gore couldn't do that, even if he wanted to

 

[jc456]

Trump's called that into question without being able to show the cheating

Court system didn’t allow a review at least 60 times. Hmmmmm

 

[otto105]

Court system didn’t allow a review at least 60 times. Hmmmmm

Yeah, something called evidence and a lack of it.

 

[Couchpotato]

It's nothing that really interests me, but I think it's actually in a law. busybee may be clearer than I am, but my recollection is that in BvG the problem was the election certfication deadline was approaching, and the Fla Sup Ct mandated a state recount. The recount would not be done in time, and in any event no recount was really going to be that certain (different voting methods in different counties had different error margins). And that was O'Connor's point.

And Gore most likely got the same # of votes as W, or even less, unless he somehow got to count the votes by retired Jews in Dade County who couldn't have possibly meant to have voted for Buchanan even thought the screwed up ballots actually showed they did. And possibly the Fla Sup Ct was playing games, because ultimately .... if nobody else can call a state election, it goes to the legislature ... and Fla's legislature was gop.

O'Connor's point wasn't so much who won. She wanted to retire and she wanted W to win. But we just need a way to count votes by people who have some guideline and oversite to not cheat. Trump's called that into question without being able to show the cheating. O'Connor said Gore couldn't do that, even if he wanted to

There probably is a deadline it's just not in the Constitution. There's no actual date for the election in there either.

 

[jc456]

Yeah, something called evidence and a lack of it.

Nope,never allowed to show the evidence. They had evidence,

 

[otto105]

Nope,never allowed to show the evidence. They had evidence,

So where is that evidence now?


Is it still up Mike Lindell’s ass?

 

[jc456]

So where is that evidence now?


Is it still up Mike Lindell’s ass?

Get back to me when you act intelligently

 

[otto105]

Get back to me when you act intelligently

That’s where the former 1-term president keeps it, no?

 

[WorldWatcher]

But that Bill didnt take effect until April of 2020 so.

Governor Wolf Signs Election Reform Bill Including New Mail-in Voting

Governor Wolf made voting more convenient and secure by signing Act 77 of 2019, the most significant improvement to Pennsylvania’s elections in more than 80 years. The bipartisan compromise legislation takes effect for the April 2020 primary election and makes Pennsylvania a national leader with...

www.governor.pa.gov

Harrisburg, PA – Governor Wolf made voting more convenient and secure by signing Act 77 of 2019, the most significant improvement to Pennsylvania’s elections in more than 80 years. The bipartisan compromise legislation takes effect for the April 2020 primary election and makes Pennsylvania a national leader with voter-friendly election reforms.

I'm not seeing the problem with a law passed in 2019, impacting primary elections in April 2020 and the general election in November 2020.

Help me out here please.

WW

 

[Couchpotato]

I'm not seeing the problem with a law passed in 2019, impacting primary elections in April 2020 and the general election in November 2020.

Help me out here please.

WW

I don't think there's a problem with the law only if they applied it to the 2019 Presidential election which is what the case is about isnt it? Unfortunately it doesnt say in the artice which part of the PA constitution the Judges felt it violated.

 

[Couchpotato]

I'm not seeing the problem with a law passed in 2019, impacting primary elections in April 2020 and the general election in November 2020.

Help me out here please.

WW

The Constitution of Pennsylvania

www.legis.state.pa.us

§ 14. Absentee voting.
(a) The Legislature shall, by general law, provide a manner
in which, and the time and place at which, qualified electors
who may, on the occurrence of any election, be absent from the
municipality of their residence, because their duties,
occupation or business require them to be elsewhere or who, on
the occurrence of any election, are unable to attend at their
proper polling places because of illness or physical disability
or who will not attend a polling place because of the observance
of a religious holiday or who cannot vote because of election
day duties, in the case of a county employee, may vote, and for
the return and canvass of their votes in the election district
in which they respectively reside.
(b) For purposes of this section, "municipality" means a
city, borough, incorporated town, township or any similar
general purpose unit of government which may be created by the
General Assembly.
(Nov. 5, 1957, P.L.1019, J.R.1; May 16, 1967, P.L.1048, J.R.5;
Nov. 5, 1985, P.L.555, J.R.1; Nov. 4, 1997, P.L.636, J.R.3)

1967 Amendment. Joint Resolution No.5 renumbered former
section 14 to present section 11 and amended and renumbered
former section 19 to present section 14.
1957 Amendment. Joint Resolution No.1 added present section
14 (formerly section 19).

They are saying that no excuse mail in voting is unconstitutional based on this article. Which seems real. It would appear they would need to amend the Constitution.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Is the argument that mail in voting in and of itself violates the PA constitution or the way in which mail in voting was changed for COVID without the Legislature? If it's the latter and not the former.

It is the former. The law in question was passed in 2019 by a GOP majority PA Congress.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I don't think there's a problem with the law only if they applied it to the 2019 Presidential election which is what the case is about isnt it? Unfortunately it doesnt say in the artice which part of the PA constitution the Judges felt it violated.

There was no Presidential election in 2019, Act 77 passed in 2019 and applied to all future elections. Therefore it applied to the 2020 federal (Presidential, Senate, and House) elections as well as state and local elections.

The question before the PASC is does Article VII § 4 provide for now excuse mail-in voting which may be different than § 14 and absentee voting which is guaranteed under certain circumstances. In other words is § 14 a limiting list (as in it can't be expanded) or is it a minimum list that can be expanded.

PA Constitution, Article VII, § 4. Method of elections; secrecy in voting.
All elections by the citizens shall be by ballot or by such other method as may be prescribed by law: Provided, That secrecy in voting be preserved.

PA Constitution, Article VII, § 14. Absentee voting.
(a) The Legislature shall, by general law, provide a manner in which, and the time and place at which, qualified electors who may, on the occurrence of any election, be absent from the municipality of their residence, because their duties, occupation or business require them to be elsewhere or who, on the occurrence of any election, are unable to attend at their proper polling places because of illness or physical disability or who will not attend a polling place because of the observance of a religious holiday or who cannot vote because of election day duties, in the case of a county employee, may vote, and for the return and canvass of their votes in the election district in which they respectively reside.

WW

 

[Couchpotato]

It is the former. The law in question was passed in 2019 by a GOP majority PA Congress.

So did a bit of digging and it appears the PA Constitution specifically doesn't allow "no excuse" absentee voting

The Constitution of Pennsylvania

www.legis.state.pa.us

§ 14. Absentee voting.
(a) The Legislature shall, by general law, provide a manner
in which, and the time and place at which, qualified electors
who may, on the occurrence of any election, be absent from the
municipality of their residence, because their duties,
occupation or business require them to be elsewhere or who, on
the occurrence of any election, are unable to attend at their
proper polling places because of illness or physical disability
or who will not attend a polling place because of the observance
of a religious holiday or who cannot vote because of election
day duties, in the case of a county employee, may vote, and for
the return and canvass of their votes in the election district
in which they respectively reside.
(b) For purposes of this section, "municipality" means a
city, borough, incorporated town, township or any similar
general purpose unit of government which may be created by the
General Assembly.
(Nov. 5, 1957, P.L.1019, J.R.1; May 16, 1967, P.L.1048, J.R.5;
Nov. 5, 1985, P.L.555, J.R.1; Nov. 4, 1997, P.L.636, J.R.3)

1967 Amendment. Joint Resolution No.5 renumbered former
section 14 to present section 11 and amended and renumbered
former section 19 to present section 14.
1957 Amendment. Joint Resolution No.1 added present section
14 (formerly section 19).

Did the Legislature just not read this document?

 

[Couchpotato]

There was no Presidential election in 2019, Act 77 passed in 2019 and applied to all future elections. Therefore it applied to the 2020 federal (Presidential, Senate, and House) elections as well as state and local elections.

The question before the PASC is does Article VII § 4 provide for now excuse mail-in voting which may be different than § 14 and absentee voting which is guaranteed under certain circumstances. In other words is § 14 a limiting list (as in it can't be expanded) or is it a minimum list that can be expanded.

PA Constitution, Article VII, § 4. Method of elections; secrecy in voting.
All elections by the citizens shall be by ballot or by such other method as may be prescribed by law: Provided, That secrecy in voting be preserved.

PA Constitution, Article VII, § 14. Absentee voting.
(a) The Legislature shall, by general law, provide a manner in which, and the time and place at which, qualified electors who may, on the occurrence of any election, be absent from the municipality of their residence, because their duties, occupation or business require them to be elsewhere or who, on the occurrence of any election, are unable to attend at their proper polling places because of illness or physical disability or who will not attend a polling place because of the observance of a religious holiday or who cannot vote because of election day duties, in the case of a county employee, may vote, and for the return and canvass of their votes in the election district in which they respectively reside.

WW

not sure why they just didn't amend the Constitution as the bill they were passing had overwhelming support and it's an obvious argument to make against the bill

 

[Harpy Eagle]

So did a bit of digging and it appears the PA Constitution specifically doesn't allow "no excuse" absentee voting

The Constitution of Pennsylvania

www.legis.state.pa.us

§ 14. Absentee voting.
(a) The Legislature shall, by general law, provide a manner
in which, and the time and place at which, qualified electors
who may, on the occurrence of any election, be absent from the
municipality of their residence, because their duties,
occupation or business require them to be elsewhere or who, on
the occurrence of any election, are unable to attend at their
proper polling places because of illness or physical disability
or who will not attend a polling place because of the observance
of a religious holiday or who cannot vote because of election
day duties, in the case of a county employee, may vote, and for
the return and canvass of their votes in the election district
in which they respectively reside.
(b) For purposes of this section, "municipality" means a
city, borough, incorporated town, township or any similar
general purpose unit of government which may be created by the
General Assembly.
(Nov. 5, 1957, P.L.1019, J.R.1; May 16, 1967, P.L.1048, J.R.5;
Nov. 5, 1985, P.L.555, J.R.1; Nov. 4, 1997, P.L.636, J.R.3)

1967 Amendment. Joint Resolution No.5 renumbered former
section 14 to present section 11 and amended and renumbered
former section 19 to present section 14.
1957 Amendment. Joint Resolution No.1 added present section
14 (formerly section 19).

Did the Legislature just not read this document?

That just tells what is required for Absentee voting. The Legislature purposefully called it "mail in voting" vice Absentee voting because they had read the document.

The real question for the PASC is if there is an actual difference between Absentee voting and "mail in voting".

 

[Couchpotato]

That just tells what is required for Absentee voting. The Legislature purposefully called it "mail in voting" vice Absentee voting because they had read the document.

The real question for the PASC is if there is an actual difference between Absentee voting and "mail in voting".

Don't know we will see but it seems the writers meant that unless you can't show up to the polls for the listed reasons that was your only way to vote. Not sure why you just don't amend the Constitution as the bill had enough support in both Houses. Never leave the game up to the officials if you can help it.

 

[WorldWatcher]

They are saying that no excuse mail in voting is unconstitutional based on this article. Which seems real. It would appear they would need to amend the Constitution.

That is what the PASC will be determining. If mail-in voting is an expansion that the legislature CAN autorize as mail-in voting which can be considered different from the minimum standards of qualification for absentee voting.

I see three optiosn:

• Mail-in voting is considered different then absentee voting and it's minimum guarantees - in which case the law could stand.
• No excuse absentee voting is seen as a reasonable accommodation during a declared National pandemic under the "illness" provision of § 14 so would be valid during a declared emergency but would not be allowed under normal circumstances - In which case it would be constitutional, but only under limited conditions and the language would need clarification.
• Mail-in voting is considered the same as absentee voting and does not qualify as one of the minimum guarantees - in which case it could be found unconstitutional under the PA Constitution.

WW

 

[Couchpotato]

That is what the PASC will be determining. If mail-in voting is an expansion that the legislature CAN autorize as mail-in voting which can be considered different from the minimum standards of qualification for absentee voting.

I see three optiosn:

• Mail-in voting is considered different then absentee voting and it's minimum guarantees - in which case the law could stand.
• No excuse absentee voting is seen as a reasonable accommodation during a declared National pandemic under the "illness" provision of § 14 so would be valid during a declared emergency but would not be allowed under normal circumstances - In which case it would be constitutional, but only under limited conditions and the language would need clarification.
• Mail-in voting is considered the same as absentee voting and does not qualify as one of the minimum guarantees - in which case it could be found unconstitutional under the PA Constitution.

WW

1 and 3 I would be fine with 2 I would take issue with because there's no limiting factor. There are currently 28 ongoing national emergencies. Basically, we exist in a perpetual state of national emergency.

They should probably just amend the Constitution if they want mail in voting.