Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground

[Coyote]

I remember ages ago, a course I took that discussed the evolution of nations...from tribes to city states to nation states. Maybe it is time to revisit the idea of city states.

 

[Coyote]

flacaltenn brings up an extremely relevant point (on the other thread).

In the absence of a fully functioning government in Palestine, and given Abbas’ age, can we credibly our faith in government continuity and adherence to any potential Peace Treaty? Assuming an unlikely acceptance.

Of course you can't.. NO PLAN can proceed without a delegation of representatives that come from a STABLE process of selection.. It's all irrelevant if that can't happen...

We made too big a deal about "National Elections".. Pushed the Palis into a Civil War by doing so.. Even when ISRAEL was telling the US it was not TIME for elections, our political calendar said it was.. And it destroyed the PA by exposing the weaknesses in SUPPORT for a "powerful central govt"...

At THIS TIME -- the best way to GET stable and PRESCRIBED Pali leadership might be to just accept the top officials from each of the 5 or 6 biggest Pali cities and ACCEPT THEM as representative.. The local scale politics is more representative of the whole of Pali opinion anyways...

That and the lack of inclusion from any Palestinians is a big weakness imo.

I really don't MIND all the innovative economic visions and bribes in the deal.. I think along the same lines of just not "DIVIDING A MAP", but DEVELOPING that map optimumly for all.. Which means (in my case) free and unfettered trade for all and prosperity.. You blow any peace plan when you start with dividing up land and map.

Land is just land.. Why not have the Egyptians and Jordanians kick in some nice chunks of land ADJACENT to the WBand/Gaza??? VOILA -- MORE LAND... And then CONNECT it all? Brilliant huh? Not something just ISRAEL is expected to solve by their lonesomes..


The West Bank has 2.5 million people 80% of them in large cities.. They are NOT all farmers or grazers.. And they NEED development of CONNECTIVITY more than they need Americas 5G Cell service or other sparkly trinkets.. So the map to me is secondary to providing a higher standard of living and peace and autonomy for the VAST MAJORITY of folks in the disputed area..

Too much focus and over-design of "features" in the Trump plan.. And not enough on PROMOTING a comfortable, workable system of govt that GIVES them representation to negotiate --- AND the connectivity that will make the entire NEIGHBORHOOD of countries capable of caring for their population...

This part, can you expand on it?
My feeling on the Trump plan(and yes it is feelings) is there is a lot of a sales pitch reminiscent of a land developer. I do like the economic development emphasis but there is too much dependence on vague promises of lots of money.

 

[Coyote]

That is why, in any deal, I think Gaza and WB should be dealt with separately.

What language: "dealt with". Shouldn't Palestinians have some input on that?

Yes they should. But Gaza and WB should be negotiated separately imo.

I find this to be an error in judgment. The reason for that is simple, and the recent history with Palestinian history governments demonstrates it conclusively: Palestinians are overwhelmingly for a united Palestine. Conversely, separate agreements would be lacking in legitimacy. Moreover, insisting on negotiating the two parts separately would doom every effort at negotiation before it even starts. No Palestinian could be seen sitting down for that without losing any standing with the overwhelming majority of Palestinians. In effect, it is the old divide et impera strategy pursued by Israel since at least Hamas won the Gaza elections, which is particularly galling, or ironic, as the case may be, since Hamas was founded with Israeli help to undermine Fatah.

That's my argument. What's yours?

I wonder...how united are they really? For one, they ruled by different political regimes, for another, they often seem to poll very differently.

Do you have any actual data to support what you say? I am curious.

 

[Olde Europe]

I find this to be an error in judgment. The reason for that is simple, and the recent history with Palestinian history governments demonstrates it conclusively: Palestinians are overwhelmingly for a united Palestine. Conversely, separate agreements would be lacking in legitimacy. Moreover, insisting on negotiating the two parts separately would doom every effort at negotiation before it even starts. No Palestinian could be seen sitting down for that without losing any standing with the overwhelming majority of Palestinians. In effect, it is the old divide et impera strategy pursued by Israel since at least Hamas won the Gaza elections, which is particularly galling, or ironic, as the case may be, since Hamas was founded with Israeli help to undermine Fatah.

That's my argument. What's yours?

I wonder...how united are they really? For one, they ruled by different political regimes, for another, they often seem to poll very differently.

Do you have any actual data to support what you say? I am curious.

First, let me correct myself. The start of the paragraph above should have read, "I find this to be an error in judgment. The reason for that is simple, and the recent history with Palestinian unity governments demonstrates it conclusively." I've been sloppy.

There has been reporting on that over the last two decades to the effect of what I am proposing. They are ruled by different "regimes" because Fatah managed to suppress the Hamas vote in the West Bank. Had there been some more recent, fair voting, my reading suggests Hamas would probably rule, or would have at some time or other ruled, the West Bank. Ultimately, you can see where Palestinians stand derived from the fact that Hamas and Fatah endlessly tried to work out a unity government, even though they probably preferred to eat the respective other faction for breakfast, alive, if at all possible. What would be the incentive for them to form such a government, when one regarded the other as religious nutcases, or corrupt, self-serving thieves and crooks, respectively? Easy enough to see, they'd both lose support unless they go along with the population's preferences. Strong preferences, that is. They may very well poll very differently, as do, say New Yorkers and Texans. Try to divide the two, and what do you think you'll find?

Google something like "Palestine unity government", and you find plenty, for instance:

Though it is not yet clear how — or even if — it will be implemented, the agreement is a major breakthrough for the Palestinians, whose four-year split has paralyzed domestic politics, hindered peace efforts, and demoralized ordinary Palestinians. Notwithstanding the humiliation inflicted by Israel’s occupation, the self-inflicted nature of the Palestinian division was a source of intense collective shame. At a time when the United States is calling on Arab governments to be more responsive to the demands of their people, U.S. opposition to national unity, which has been a central demand of the Palestinian people for many years, would send all of the wrong messages to the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world.​

Anyway, let's take a step back: There will be no solution unless both Israelis and Palestinians, by their overwhelming majority find the settlement fair, and agree. There will be no solution if the process of resolving issues starts out wrong, for any reason whatsoever, and, in particular, if Palestinians in one part or the other feel rejected, either in their identity or due to their political preferences. There will be no solution if a precondition for it is to divide Palestinians against themselves. Which is exactly what the Trump Plan is doing, BTW.

 

[flacaltenn]

Palestinians are overwhelmingly for a united Palestine. Conversely, separate agreements would be lacking in legitimacy. Moreover, insisting on negotiating the two parts separately would doom every effort at negotiation before it even starts.

Can't believe HOW damn wrong you are on this.. I can't fix that. And I'm not gonna pile links up you to PROVE that the PA and Hamas in Gaza has been in a state of Cold War SINCE the HOT CIVIL WAR they fought over Gaza. That's what?? 15 years now? MULTIPLE attempts to talk.. All broken agreements. The ASSASSINATIONS on both sides... And more importantly, the de factor EMBARGO on Gaza that the PA (who controls the bulk of Intl aid) has IMPOSED on Gaza...

Go educate yourself and come back...

Here's a clue...

Hamas executes suspected Fatah traitors in Gaza

 

[Olde Europe]

Palestinians are overwhelmingly for a united Palestine. Conversely, separate agreements would be lacking in legitimacy. Moreover, insisting on negotiating the two parts separately would doom every effort at negotiation before it even starts.

Can't believe HOW damn wrong you are on this.. I can't fix that. And I'm not gonna pile links up you to PROVE that the PA and Hamas in Gaza has been in a state of Cold War SINCE the HOT CIVIL WAR they fought over Gaza. That's what?? 15 years now? MULTIPLE attempts to talk.. All broken agreements. The ASSASSINATIONS on both sides... And more importantly, the de factor EMBARGO on Gaza that the PA (who controls the bulk of Intl aid) has IMPOSED on Gaza...

Go educate yourself and come back...

Here's a clue...

Hamas executes suspected Fatah traitors in Gaza

Read my texts as often as necessary for you to understand them.

 

[flacaltenn]

I remember ages ago, a course I took that discussed the evolution of nations...from tribes to city states to nation states. Maybe it is time to revisit the idea of city states.

Right, THe city states of LA, San Fran and San Diego could float in a sea of red around them and do ANYTHING they damn well want to do with no constitution, opposition parties, or law precedents to stop them...

 

[flacaltenn]

political preferences. There will be no solution if a precondition for it is to divide Palestinians against themselves.

They've done a damn good job of dividing themselves by their lonesome selves.. I'm more interesting in a form of govt for Palestine that doesn't DEMAND the people have a strong central NATIONAL govt at all... THAT is the centuries old Arab preferencce for governance in that region.. And by us DEMANDING that they be as miserable as WE ARE in the USA with our HUGELY POWERFUL central govt being corrupt and fractured, we're FORCING them to produce representation that somehow is gonna quickly "kiss and make-up" and form a UNITY anything...

And I have convinced myself that there are BETTER systems for a design model of Palestine...

Support for Abbas is low... Support for the PA is lower.. Time to find a better accommodation...

 

[Mindful]

U.S. President Donald Trump’s Middle East “deal of the century” offers the Palestinians a state. They have rejected it and threatened instead to ramp up violence against Israel.

No one can be surprised. They have rejected every offer of a state previously made to them in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008 and 2014.

So is this latest deal anything more than Groundhog Day for the Middle East all over again? Yes, because this isn’t a deal. It’s an ultimatum.

Israel intends to enact its part in the plan unilaterally by declaring sovereignty over the Israeli settlement blocs and the Jordan Valley. The big change is that, despite the subsequent crossed wires over timing, the United States will accept this.

That’s because this isn’t a “peace process” in which both sides must progress in tandem with each other — a process that gave the Palestinians an effective veto even while they continued to wage their war of extermination against Israel.

For the first time, here’s an American plan that puts the security of Israel first and foremost. It’s therefore the first time that the United States has unequivocally supported Israel’s future existence.

The Palestinians' bluff has been called. Over to you, world | MelaniePhillips.com

 

[rylah]

The borders. Palestine is left with a "state" entirely dependent on Israel's good will. Discontinous Palestinian territory peppered Israeli enclaves creating even more discontunuity. What bothers me is that the solution is, repeatedly, state of the art crossings, bridges, etc etc. All in all a LOT of building in order to accommodate the incredible discontinuity. That means a lot of investment and maintenance while farmers, who can't even access parts of their land anymore, require hours to get around the security blocks just to reach the other end of their farm. Who is going to pay for it all and pay to maintain it? (Maybe I missed that or it's in the appendices).

I think this is a creative and viable solution to a very prickly problem. It offers freedom of movement to both Israelis and Palestinians, entirely within their own state, without having to cross into the other state.

But bring me your offers, then. What would you suggest as an alternative? Forced expulsion of populations? Forcing Palestine to accept hundreds of thousands of Israelis (who would become Palestinians)? How would you protect the Jewish population of Palestine in that case?

I'm really not sure, but it would not be forced expulsions. At one point though you had suggested that Jewish enclaves in Palestininan areas would remain in Palestine and Arab enclaves in Israeli areas would remain in Israel, they could choose to retain their citizenship or take a new citizenship but would not be forced to move. Is that off the table?

Viability. What makes for a viable state? I read something a while back on this but I can't find it. It was an article that listed characteristics that helped make a state viable or successful - it included access to ports, either rivers or ocean. Looking a the map for the Palestinian state (WB only) it has NO direct access to the Jordan River, the Dead Sea, or the Mediterranean. Promises of port access, special roads, and resorts and just that - promises and they can be as easily taken away as they are given. When I looked up rivers in Israel (Google Maps) they seems to be almost nothing in the Palestinian area (assuming I am reading it right). Lack of control over water resources makes a state extremely vulnerable.

Well, the plan covers a joined Palestine, so they would have access to a port. If we were going to change that, we could always give WB a tunnel or road to a port. Why not?

Lack of water resources make lots of states vulnerable. No different than dozens of other states. Palestine will have to deal with it the way those others deal with it. Good trade relations, technology, etc.

Actually yes different from other states in that it is completely surrounded by another state who can control access to other nations, water resources, ports. I'm just curious not give them direct access at some point of the Jordan river or the Dead Sea? Why not allow them a bit of border with Jordan?

Acknowledging the Palestinian's culture. I think what bothers me a lot is that this almost reads like the total imposition of another (American) culture and values over the Palestinians. It has a glitzy, salesman quality to it that seems to totally ignore the possibility that the Palestinians have their own culture, which may not be the same as ours.

This would have to be addressed in some sort of counter-offer. What would you suggest?

I don't think it would be addressed in a counter offer because the ENTIRE plan almost is based on placing a whole new culture over the Palestinian one. For example, a requirement for western style financial institutions yet - suppose what they, as a culture prefer, is Sharia compliant financial systems? When I'm reading this plan, I'm seeing a very Americanized idea of what Palestine should be. Some good, some comes off with a "we know what's best for you" almost colonialist attitude. I would feel more comfortable if there was Palestinian input - doesn't have to be leadership, but Palestinians who would be effected and who would have to make it work.

Any plan that will work has to recognize this and work within the existing culture to affect reforms over time in those areas where reforms are really needed (corruption, human rights). Imposing it, in the form of a "peace plan" is doomed to failure imo.

That is on the Palestinians to achieve. They can only be given so much of a leg-up.

It's not about a leg up.

There is a heavy heavy dependence on yet-to-be-specified massive amounts of money.

Palestinians are the receipients of the largest amounts financial aid ever in history. Let's put the money towards progress and peace.

And lastly, but most important - complete lack of any input from the Palestinians and more, a seeming lack of interest for input from the Palestinians. And I think that is important.

The opportunity for input is happening right now. Let's see if they take it up. (I am not hopeful).

No. The opportunity for input is not happening. It's presented to them as fully baked. That's it.

Imagine if Trump unilaterally declared Jerusalem to be the capital of Palestine.

And unilaterally cancelled all aid to Israel.

And closed Israel's embassy in the US.

Then Kushner got together with Abbas, and other Arab states and formulated a Peace Plan and Economic Development plan for Israel and Palestine.

Then presented it to Israel as a "take it or leave it" (and imply that the Jews are morons who don't know what's good for them).

That would go over well wouldn't it? That would really get them to the negotiating table right?

promises and they can be as easily taken away as they are given

Yeah. Israel learned that with Gaza.

What we are discussing here is a Peace Agreement. Peace Agreements signed by the Parties concerned are the CORNERSTONE of modern relations between States. You are attempting to say here that Israel can't really be trusted. The implication that Israel will unilaterally and arbitrarily break Treaties made in good faith with a real partner for peace is a vile accusation playing off the "unique evil" trope.

No. There is no "unique evil" trope so quit throwing that out! It's a reality. It happens. My own country walked out of two major international agreements - just. like that. ANY country has to take into account it's own security and the security and well being of its citizens. Why would Palestine be any different? The more points of dependence there are on other countries for basic needs, economy, and resources the more vulnerable they are if that country chose to leave the agreement or act putatively.

Why do you expect Palestine to be different than other countries in what they need?

These are not real problems.
Neither the terms you use contradict those of the various programs in the plan, which are specifically modeled after successful Arab League countries.

Also...I know, I know...but Switzerland comes to mind...

Switzerland is not entirely surrounded by one country, it is bordered by France, Italy and Germany, giving it multiple opportunities if one should sour. It also contains many rivers. Water has become a contentious resource in many parts of the world.

I didn't say it was the same.
Bot no port and real army and look.

Neither in this case it is surrounded entirely by one country, look at the map, it's obvious,
read what it says.

Look most countries lack contentious resources, others degrade in spite vast natural wealth. That's exactly the challenges functional governments are supposed to address responsibly, which is not a function of the rejectionist state of mind.

 

[flacaltenn]

U.S. President Donald Trump’s Middle East “deal of the century” offers the Palestinians a state. They have rejected it and threatened instead to ramp up violence against Israel.

No one can be surprised. They have rejected every offer of a state previously made to them in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008 and 2014.

So is this latest deal anything more than Groundhog Day for the Middle East all over again? Yes, because this isn’t a deal. It’s an ultimatum.

Israel intends to enact its part in the plan unilaterally by declaring sovereignty over the Israeli settlement blocs and the Jordan Valley. The big change is that, despite the subsequent crossed wires over timing, the United States will accept this.

That’s because this isn’t a “peace process” in which both sides must progress in tandem with each other — a process that gave the Palestinians an effective veto even while they continued to wage their war of extermination against Israel.

For the first time, here’s an American plan that puts the security of Israel first and foremost. It’s therefore the first time that the United States has unequivocally supported Israel’s future existence.

The Palestinians' bluff has been called. Over to you, world | MelaniePhillips.com

It's not really a "bluff".. THey are not united enough to respond.. And we keep pushing them towards "national" elections and a top heavy national political system.. Funny thing is that Arabs may value their freedom from "nation states" a lot more than we do...

They have THOUSANDS of years of existence without organizing any strong nation states (since the Egyptian dynasties or other example farther back) as their inheritance..

They've been occupied and trampled over for all of the last 2000 years by Empires or Crusades from religious wars..

They only instituted nation states as a means to kick out foreign empires and interference.

And they KNOW the sordid history of "strong man" nation states in the region discriminating against and even torturing the "tribes not in power"...

We're asking them to put their representation on the field.. They feel the field is theirs and don't see a NEED to elect "national leadership".. THEREFORE, if the world is gonna FIND their representation amongst them, my view is -- we best VIEW their CHOICE of govt as more of an "Emirates" model and talk to the leaders of the cities where 80% of the Palis live...

NOT Hamas or Fatah.. Maybe to some extent listen to the PA that hasn't held a national election for over a decade, and quit fooling ourselves that the "table is set" for talks.. Any PRESSURE to do that will produce another "Jew free Gaza" debacle and perhaps another war amongst them...

Can't even START a meaningful "peace process" until there's legitimate and STABLE representation from the Pali side..

 

[flacaltenn]

No one can be surprised. They have rejected every offer of a state previously made to them in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008 and 2014.

Many of those "rejections" came from Yasser Araffat and other self-appointed officials who had no skin in game.. Didn't have to RUN or administer anything in Palestine.. Again,

The representation must be there EVEN IF it's not thru "national elections" but STILL an accurate sample of the folks that NOW RUN "palestine in occupation"..

And

You CANNOT START with a map on the table and some lines drawn on it.. The greater vision of freedom and prosperity does NOT COME from the land holdings themselves..

And on that LAST point -- the Trump proposal has that greater vision part right.. They probably should have CANNED the maps and spent more time SUGGESTING political leadership models that are more suited to the history, culture and comfort of the people of Palestine... Models that would PRODUCE the leaders that represent the greater interests of the Pali people..

 

[Coyote]

U.S. President Donald Trump’s Middle East “deal of the century” offers the Palestinians a state. They have rejected it and threatened instead to ramp up violence against Israel.

No one can be surprised. They have rejected every offer of a state previously made to them in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008 and 2014.

So is this latest deal anything more than Groundhog Day for the Middle East all over again? Yes, because this isn’t a deal. It’s an ultimatum.

Israel intends to enact its part in the plan unilaterally by declaring sovereignty over the Israeli settlement blocs and the Jordan Valley. The big change is that, despite the subsequent crossed wires over timing, the United States will accept this.

That’s because this isn’t a “peace process” in which both sides must progress in tandem with each other — a process that gave the Palestinians an effective veto even while they continued to wage their war of extermination against Israel.

For the first time, here’s an American plan that puts the security of Israel first and foremost. It’s therefore the first time that the United States has unequivocally supported Israel’s future existence.

The Palestinians' bluff has been called. Over to you, world | MelaniePhillips.com

It's not really a "bluff".. THey are not united enough to respond.. And we keep pushing them towards "national" elections and a top heavy national political system.. Funny thing is that Arabs may value their freedom from "nation states" a lot more than we do...

They have THOUSANDS of years of existence without organizing any strong nation states (since the Egyptian dynasties or other example farther back) as their inheritance..

They've been occupied and trampled over for all of the last 2000 years by Empires or Crusades from religious wars..

They only instituted nation states as a means to kick out foreign empires and interference.

And they KNOW the sordid history of "strong man" nation states in the region discriminating against and even torturing the "tribes not in power"...

We're asking them to put their representation on the field.. They feel the field is theirs and don't see a NEED to elect "national leadership".. THEREFORE, if the world is gonna FIND their representation amongst them, my view is -- we best VIEW their CHOICE of govt as more of an "Emirates" model and talk to the leaders of the cities where 80% of the Palis live...

NOT Hamas or Fatah.. Maybe to some extent listen to the PA that hasn't held a national election for over a decade, and quit fooling ourselves that the "table is set" for talks.. Any PRESSURE to do that will produce another "Jew free Gaza" debacle and perhaps another war amongst them...

Can't even START a meaningful "peace process" until there's legitimate and STABLE representation from the Pali side..

So maybe they elect regional representatives (mayors of major cities, tribal representatives of rural areas) from whom a single representative is chosen for a set period to act in their interest. Kind of like the Swiss system?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

U.S. President Donald Trump’s Middle East “deal of the century” offers the Palestinians a state. They have rejected it and threatened instead to ramp up violence against Israel.

No one can be surprised. They have rejected every offer of a state previously made to them in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008 and 2014.

So is this latest deal anything more than Groundhog Day for the Middle East all over again? Yes, because this isn’t a deal. It’s an ultimatum.

Israel intends to enact its part in the plan unilaterally by declaring sovereignty over the Israeli settlement blocs and the Jordan Valley. The big change is that, despite the subsequent crossed wires over timing, the United States will accept this.

That’s because this isn’t a “peace process” in which both sides must progress in tandem with each other — a process that gave the Palestinians an effective veto even while they continued to wage their war of extermination against Israel.

For the first time, here’s an American plan that puts the security of Israel first and foremost. It’s therefore the first time that the United States has unequivocally supported Israel’s future existence.

The Palestinians' bluff has been called. Over to you, world | MelaniePhillips.com

Tinmore has to read this article!

 

[Mindful]

U.S. President Donald Trump’s Middle East “deal of the century” offers the Palestinians a state. They have rejected it and threatened instead to ramp up violence against Israel.

No one can be surprised. They have rejected every offer of a state previously made to them in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008 and 2014.

So is this latest deal anything more than Groundhog Day for the Middle East all over again? Yes, because this isn’t a deal. It’s an ultimatum.

Israel intends to enact its part in the plan unilaterally by declaring sovereignty over the Israeli settlement blocs and the Jordan Valley. The big change is that, despite the subsequent crossed wires over timing, the United States will accept this.

That’s because this isn’t a “peace process” in which both sides must progress in tandem with each other — a process that gave the Palestinians an effective veto even while they continued to wage their war of extermination against Israel.

For the first time, here’s an American plan that puts the security of Israel first and foremost. It’s therefore the first time that the United States has unequivocally supported Israel’s future existence.

The Palestinians' bluff has been called. Over to you, world | MelaniePhillips.com

Tinmore has to read this article!

Won't change things. He'll give it a funny.

 

[Olde Europe]

Trump’s ‘deal of the century’ is so absurd and banal, it’s impossible to take it seriously

When the two old political fraudsters emerged at the White House this week with the most deranged, farcical tragi-comedy in Middle East history, it was difficult to know whether to laugh or cry.

The 80-page “peace” plan from the White House contained 56 references to “Vision” in its first 60 pages – and yes, with a capital V on each occasion to suggest, I guess, that this “deal of the century” was a supernatural revelation. It was not, though it might have been written by a super-Israeli.

It said goodbye to Palestinian refugees – the famous/infamous “right of return” and all who now rot in the camps of the Middle East; farewell to the old city of Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital; adieu to UNRWA, the UN relief agency. But it welcomed a permanent Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the total annexation of almost every Jewish colony built there against all international law.

It’s a given, of course – and has been for days – that this nonsense might just cast some magic dust over the travails of the leaders of America and Israel. As the two rogues, Donald Trump under impeachment and Benjamin Netanyahu charged with corruption, grinned to the applause of their supporters in Washington, it became clear at once that this mendacious document – containing absurdity, burlesque and dreary banality in about equal measure – destroyed forever any hope of an independent Palestinian state of any kind. That’s not what it said, but you only had to glance at the verbiage – where Israel’s occupation, the longest in modern history, was described as a “security footprint” and where the Oslo accord was trashed as an agreement which produced “waves of terror and violence”.

Truly, all must read these 80 pages. And every reader should go through them twice, in case, first time round, they missed some extra egregious indignity inflicted upon the Palestinians. [...]

But when should we journalists take all the stops out, I asked myself when I’d finished reading the 56 “Visions” – there are others, by the way, in lower case, and several “missions” – and the list of prohibitions imposed upon the Palestinians? These included, we should note, the instruction that “the State of Palestine may not join any international organisation if such membership would contradict commitments of the State of Palestine to demilitarisation and cessation of political and judicial warfare against the State of Israel”. So goodbye as well to the protection of the International Criminal Court.​

Yep, the most heinous kind of warfare of all, "judicial warfare", shall finally, at long last, be prohibited. Because, never was anything good accomplished by going after (war) criminals.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Trump’s ‘deal of the century’ is so absurd and banal, it’s impossible to take it seriously

When the two old political fraudsters emerged at the White House this week with the most deranged, farcical tragi-comedy in Middle East history, it was difficult to know whether to laugh or cry.

The 80-page “peace” plan from the White House contained 56 references to “Vision” in its first 60 pages – and yes, with a capital V on each occasion to suggest, I guess, that this “deal of the century” was a supernatural revelation. It was not, though it might have been written by a super-Israeli.

It said goodbye to Palestinian refugees – the famous/infamous “right of return” and all who now rot in the camps of the Middle East; farewell to the old city of Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital; adieu to UNRWA, the UN relief agency. But it welcomed a permanent Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the total annexation of almost every Jewish colony built there against all international law.

It’s a given, of course – and has been for days – that this nonsense might just cast some magic dust over the travails of the leaders of America and Israel. As the two rogues, Donald Trump under impeachment and Benjamin Netanyahu charged with corruption, grinned to the applause of their supporters in Washington, it became clear at once that this mendacious document – containing absurdity, burlesque and dreary banality in about equal measure – destroyed forever any hope of an independent Palestinian state of any kind. That’s not what it said, but you only had to glance at the verbiage – where Israel’s occupation, the longest in modern history, was described as a “security footprint” and where the Oslo accord was trashed as an agreement which produced “waves of terror and violence”.

Truly, all must read these 80 pages. And every reader should go through them twice, in case, first time round, they missed some extra egregious indignity inflicted upon the Palestinians. [...]

But when should we journalists take all the stops out, I asked myself when I’d finished reading the 56 “Visions” – there are others, by the way, in lower case, and several “missions” – and the list of prohibitions imposed upon the Palestinians? These included, we should note, the instruction that “the State of Palestine may not join any international organisation if such membership would contradict commitments of the State of Palestine to demilitarisation and cessation of political and judicial warfare against the State of Israel”. So goodbye as well to the protection of the International Criminal Court.​

Yep, the most heinous kind of warfare of all, "judicial warfare", shall finally, at long last, be prohibited. Because, never was anything good accomplished by going after (war) criminals.

What do you mean "nonsense"? Isn't it about time to say farewell to "right of return", the Old City of Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, and UNRWA? It's long past time, in fact.

 

[Mindful]

Trump’s ‘deal of the century’ is so absurd and banal, it’s impossible to take it seriously

When the two old political fraudsters emerged at the White House this week with the most deranged, farcical tragi-comedy in Middle East history, it was difficult to know whether to laugh or cry.

The 80-page “peace” plan from the White House contained 56 references to “Vision” in its first 60 pages – and yes, with a capital V on each occasion to suggest, I guess, that this “deal of the century” was a supernatural revelation. It was not, though it might have been written by a super-Israeli.

It said goodbye to Palestinian refugees – the famous/infamous “right of return” and all who now rot in the camps of the Middle East; farewell to the old city of Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital; adieu to UNRWA, the UN relief agency. But it welcomed a permanent Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the total annexation of almost every Jewish colony built there against all international law.

It’s a given, of course – and has been for days – that this nonsense might just cast some magic dust over the travails of the leaders of America and Israel. As the two rogues, Donald Trump under impeachment and Benjamin Netanyahu charged with corruption, grinned to the applause of their supporters in Washington, it became clear at once that this mendacious document – containing absurdity, burlesque and dreary banality in about equal measure – destroyed forever any hope of an independent Palestinian state of any kind. That’s not what it said, but you only had to glance at the verbiage – where Israel’s occupation, the longest in modern history, was described as a “security footprint” and where the Oslo accord was trashed as an agreement which produced “waves of terror and violence”.

Truly, all must read these 80 pages. And every reader should go through them twice, in case, first time round, they missed some extra egregious indignity inflicted upon the Palestinians. [...]

But when should we journalists take all the stops out, I asked myself when I’d finished reading the 56 “Visions” – there are others, by the way, in lower case, and several “missions” – and the list of prohibitions imposed upon the Palestinians? These included, we should note, the instruction that “the State of Palestine may not join any international organisation if such membership would contradict commitments of the State of Palestine to demilitarisation and cessation of political and judicial warfare against the State of Israel”. So goodbye as well to the protection of the International Criminal Court.​

Yep, the most heinous kind of warfare of all, "judicial warfare", shall finally, at long last, be prohibited. Because, never was anything good accomplished by going after (war) criminals.

Robert Fisk? Who else?

They had every reason to be angry... If I had been them, I would have attacked me

Take it seriously? Speak for yourself.

 

[Mindful]

One reason is that verbal Jew-baiting takes the form of anti-Zionism or Israel-bashing. And many don’t recognize anti-Zionism as a form of Jew-hatred. They think antisemitism is a prejudice against Jews as people, whereas anti-Zionism and Israel-bashing are legitimate attacks on a political project.

Antisemitism, however, is not a prejudice like any other. It has unique characteristics applied to no other group, people or cause. It’s an obsessional and unhinged narrative based entirely on lies; it accuses Jews of crimes of which they are not only innocent but the victims; it holds them to standards expected of no one else; it depicts them as a global conspiracy of unique malice and power.

Anti-Zionism has exactly the same unique characteristics directed against the collective Jew in Israel. It is furthermore an attack on Judaism itself, because the land of Israel is an inseparable element.

Of course, Jews remain Jews even if Israel is irrelevant to their lives. But just as the Sabbath is a keystone of Jewish religious belief even though many Jews don’t observe it, the land of Israel is another such keystone.

Judaism is indivisibly composed of the people, the religion and the land. To attack the right of the people to the land is to attack Judaism itself.

The onslaught on Zionism and Israel has therefore legitimized and encouraged unambiguous antisemitism, with behavior of a malice and virulence directed at no other community.

The triple lock of western Jew-hatred | MelaniePhillips.com

 

[Shusha]

It said goodbye to Palestinian refugees – the famous/infamous “right of return” and all who now rot in the camps of the Middle East;

farewell to the old city of Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital;

adieu to UNRWA, the UN relief agency.

But it welcomed a permanent Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the total annexation of almost every Jewish colony built there against all international law.

destroyed forever any hope of an independent Palestinian state of any kind.

One of the hallmarks of discourse in the past few days is the temper tantrums of Team Palestine screaming "the sky is falling". While there is much drama over the impending doom of the Arab Palestinians should this framework be adopted, few have bothered to engage with plan as it is written and the potential there to end the conflict and move on with prosperity.

So let's look at the points brought up in the above post.

1. We will say goodbye to the Palestinian refugees rotting in the camps in the ME. To this I say -- Hallelujah and about bloody time. These are human beings and they deserve every dignity and opportunity to thrive without being held hostage to some ridiculous notion that generations of people should physically suffer for some lofty ideal of "return" or that somehow this is an acceptable trade-off, let alone a good one.

Instead, the people affected will, themselves, have the option to choose repatriation to Palestine, to settle in their existing location as FULL citizens with all the rights this entails, or to accept relocation in a voluntary third country. These are the options already afforded to all the refugees in the world (and not their perpetual descendants). And this should be normalized for the Arab Palestinians.

2. We will bid adieu to UNWRA. Good riddance. The sooner the better. UNWRA is a bloated, self-serving, biased institution whose mandate has long since become fossilized for purposes other than taking care of actual people. Those living in Gaza and Palestine should be taken care of by their own governments and are by no account actually refugees. If Gaza and Palestine are incapable or unwilling to provide for their own peoples, they need to straight up just admit that so another government can be formed and step in. Those living in Jordan should immediately be granted full and inviolable rights to Jordanian citizenship. Those living in Lebanon who choose to stay should immediately be granted full and inviolable Lebanese citizenship. The true refugees remaining (a very small number) should be turned over to UNHCR care under all normal conditions.

3. Palestinians can say farewell to the Old City of Jerusalem as their capital. Yes, they can. And yes, they should. And for very good reason, actually outlined in the framework. Israel has proven itself absolutely capable of providing freedom of worship and respect for ALL faiths within the Old City. Israel has provided safety and security for everyone in the Old City. It is a beautiful and free city for all peoples and all faiths. It is the living proof that the Jewish people are fully capable of achieving an international character for the city and hosting a gathering of nations. The Arab Palestinian Muslims, to the contrary, have demonstrated time and time again that they are utterly incapable of permitting freedom of religion and freedom of worship.

4. It welcomes recognition of Jewish sovereignty over traditional indigenous Jewish lands. And put the on-going security of Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people as a priority. Fully in compliance with international law. As it should.

5. It in absolutely no way prevents an Arab Palestinian State for eternity. Instead, it provides a viable, step-by-step plan for Palestine to achieve self-determination with a viable economic plan. This is just straight-up "the sky is falling" drama. For every State which has limitations or restrictions of a type mentioned in the framework -- there are half a dozen other countries with those same challenges. Just excuses for allowing Arab Palestine to wallow in victimization rather than stepping onto the mat.