Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground

[Shusha]

The "Deal of the Century" completely excluded any Palestinian input. No one should be surprised at the reactions.

Imagine if the "Deal of the Century" were made with the US and Palestinians only. I doubt Israel would jump on board.

Even if that were true (and it is not since Abbas told everyone he rejected participation expressly so that he could whine and sulk that he didn't participate), the Palestinians should still come to the table and begin negotiating. It would be a great idea for the US and the Palestinians to sit down and hammer out their own proposal for a framework toward peace and prosperity. They should do it, starting tomorrow.

And SOMEONE out there on Team Palestine should start whittling away at this proposal and determine what can be lived with and what needs changing, instead of continuing to whine and complain that the "sky is falling" and the US and Israel are evil for the very idea of putting together such a considered and comprehensive proposal.

Hard disagree.

Trump implemented a series of measures that made impossible for Abbas to go to the negotiating table: Jerusalem, cutting all aid, shutting down their office and booting them. After those actions there is no way the Palestinia s OR ANYONE ELSE would trust or work with the US or Israel.

You call it whining. If Trump had done this Israel, I seriously doubt Israel would be at the table.

It is NOT impossible for Abbas to go to the negotiating table. And claiming that it is impossible is just an excuse to avoid negotiating. And the only people being harmed by this refusal to negotiate are the Arab Palestinians.

No. It isn't. He has to be able justify his actions to his people and he has been put in an untenable position. Diplomacy isn't a business deal mandated by a CEO. There has to be a way for both sides to have some sort of win to take home. The process thus far hasn't allowed that.

This plan offers PLENTY of win for the Arab Palestinians:

• $50 billion in investment into infrastructure and the economy
• a STATE
• contiguity
• status quo at Harim al-Sharif
• a capital in parts of Jerusalem
• ports, airports, trade routes
• external defense (hello, Iran)
• 100% of Arab Palestinians living under their own self-government
• choice for "refugees" and an end to their refugee status and the discrimination

Win and win and win.

If you are saying that this list of wins is an "untenable position" then you have announced that there is no possible way for there to be an end of conflict agreement.

If that is true, then Israel should do whatever she needs to do to secure her future and the future well-being of her people. If its still the three no's, and if it will always be the three no's, then Israel has no choice but to act unilaterally. And she should.

 

[Shusha]

I totally disagree that totally excluding one side from a plan "is not a problem".

But they are not being excluded. They are explicitly rejecting inclusion.

 

[Shusha]

What I suggest is go to the people and their local leadership and get some information. What do these different communities want? What can they live with? What can they not live with? What do they think of the various aspects of the plan?

Now THAT is a very sly proposal. Israel bypasses the governments of Palestine and treats directly with small local leaderships to create a number of different treaties and agreements with local governments.

 

[Coyote]

I totally disagree that totally excluding one side from a plan "is not a problem".

But they are not being excluded. They are explicitly rejecting inclusion.

They rejected inclusion because of specific actions by the Trump administration that indicated the US was not fair negotiating intermediary.

Do think Israel would have included themselves had they been treated that way? I doubt it. I dont see why the Palestinians would be any different.

 

[Coyote]

What I suggest is go to the people and their local leadership and get some information. What do these different communities want? What can they live with? What can they not live with? What do they think of the various aspects of the plan?

Now THAT is a very sly proposal. Israel bypasses the governments of Palestine and treats directly with small local leaderships to create a number of different treaties and agreements with local governments.

I wasn't thinking of Israel. I was thinking the US should and I wasnt suggesting treaties either. Where on earth did you come up with that? Reread my posts.

 

[Shusha]

What I suggest is go to the people and their local leadership and get some information. What do these different communities want? What can they live with? What can they not live with? What do they think of the various aspects of the plan?

Now THAT is a very sly proposal. Israel bypasses the governments of Palestine and treats directly with small local leaderships to create a number of different treaties and agreements with local governments.

I wasn't thinking of Israel. I was thinking the US should and I wasnt suggesting treaties either. Where on earth did you come up with that? Reread my posts.

You are suggesting that the US as a "fair negotiator" bypass the recognized government of Palestine as a means of creating a Framework for an end of conflict agreement? What?!

Just who are you proposing Israel sign this Peace Treaty with then?

 

[Shusha]

They rejected inclusion because of specific actions by the Trump administration that indicated the US was not fair negotiating intermediary.

Do think Israel would have included themselves had they been treated that way? I doubt it. I dont see why the Palestinians would be any different.

Oh come on. The PLAN itself suggests the US is a fair negotiating partner, giving maximum wins to both sides. To reject the plan without even looking at it, is ridiculous. Jeez, even the Arab League actually read the plan.

 

[Shusha]

Instead of complaining that their feelings are hurt because they are not relevant, the government(s) of Palestine should be working their asses off to BE relevant.

 

[Olde Europe]

Go out, present it and sell it to the Palestinian people and local leadership and see what they have to say.

How is that supposed to work?

"77.2% of [Palestinian] respondents believed that the "deal of the century" that the US president intends to launch aims at ransacking the Palestinian issue."

No, this doesn't tell you how bad the "plan" is, just how bad the plan was expected to be, in October 2018. And that was an indication of Palestinian trust in U.S. fairness, or rather the lack thereof. Now that the plan exceeds the most pessimistic expectations I have seen, trying to sell it to ordinary Palestinians is perfectly pointless, and will be seen as an attempt at driving a wedge between Palestinians and their leadership, who have angrily rejected it.

There are no "good aspects" of that plan. None. All the high-pitch, fast-track, state-of-the-art goodies are mere bait, exactly the attempt at selling that "plan" to Palestinians. None of these goodies is going to materialize, and that's why, even while that was perfectly under the planners' control, they didn't bother to present firm commitments to funding the "goodies". Everybody knew, the plan would be rejected by both Palestinians and their leadership, no one would ever be able to extract the humiliating conditions imposed on Palestinians in general, and on Hamas in particular. No one could be seen, ever, to jettison East Jerusalem and to set the refugees adrift, and with that the "plan" is merely an ultimatum no one would meet, and an excuse to move ahead with annexation at Israel's will - with Palestinian rejectionism as the threadbare "justification". That was the real plan from the get-go.

The worst aspect of that "plan" was the U.S. carelessly throwing away the last remainder of its standing as an honest broker. That's gone now, and I, for one, can't begin to explain how that might be regained. And with that the last hope for a peaceful resolution is also gone.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Go out, present it and sell it to the Palestinian people and local leadership and see what they have to say.

How is that supposed to work?

"77.2% of [Palestinian] respondents believed that the "deal of the century" that the US president intends to launch aims at ransacking the Palestinian issue."

No, this doesn't tell you how bad the "plan" is, just how bad the plan was expected to be, in October 2018. And that was an indication of Palestinian trust in U.S. fairness, or rather the lack thereof. Now that the plan exceeds the most pessimistic expectations I have seen, trying to sell it to ordinary Palestinians is perfectly pointless, and will be seen as an attempt at driving a wedge between Palestinians and their leadership, who have angrily rejected it.

There are no "good aspects" of that plan. None. All the high-pitch, fast-track, state-of-the-art goodies are mere bait, exactly the attempt at selling that "plan" to Palestinians. None of these goodies is going to materialize, and that's why, even while that was perfectly under the planners' control, they didn't bother to present firm commitments to funding the "goodies". Everybody knew, the plan would be rejected by both Palestinians and their leadership, no one would ever be able to extract the humiliating conditions imposed on Palestinians in general, and on Hamas in particular. No one could be seen, ever, to jettison East Jerusalem and to set the refugees adrift, and with that the "plan" is merely an ultimatum no one would meet, and an excuse to move ahead with annexation at Israel's will - with Palestinian rejectionism as the threadbare "justification". That was the real plan from the get-go.

The worst aspect of that "plan" was the U.S. carelessly throwing away the last remainder of its standing as an honest broker. That's gone now, and I, for one, can't begin to explain how that might be regained. And with that the last hope for a peaceful resolution is also gone.

This is the best plan there ever was. Like Jared said in an interview on CNN, it sets up "benchmarks" for the Palestinians to achieve to earn their independence. They are expected to give up terror and Hamas. They are expected to root out corruption in their leadership. They are expected to assimilate the refugees in their new state, while Lebanon, Jordan and Syria are expected to give citizenship to the rest. In short, if they can prove that they can act like a normal nation, they will then prove they can join the family of nations.

 

[José]

1 They are expected to give up terror and Hamas.

2 They are expected to root out corruption in their leadership.

3 They are expected to assimilate the refugees in their new state, while Lebanon, Jordan and Syria are expected to give citizenship to the rest.

You forgot the most important item:

4 They are expected to spread their asscheeks wide open and close their eyes.

 

[Hollie]

1 They are expected to give up terror and Hamas.

2 They are expected to root out corruption in their leadership.

3 They are expected to assimilate the refugees in their new state, while Lebanon, Jordan and Syria are expected to give citizenship to the rest.

You forgot the most important item:

4 They are expected to spread their asscheeks wide open and close their eyes.

Islamic terrorists expected up to give up Islamic terrorism?

That’s just, you know, racist or something.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Hollie
Islamic terrorists expected up to give up Islamic terrorism?

That’s just, you know, racist or something.

Well, to be fair, the history of "negotiations" between every settler colonialist state that has ever existed in human history and the natives they subjugated (America and Indians, Afrikaners and black south africans, France and Algeria's natives etc, etc...) can be summed up by the 4th item FY forgot to mention:

The natives were expected to spread their asscheeks and hope it wouldn't be too fat.

So no one can say I'm unfairly singling out Israel.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Originally posted by Hollie
Islamic terrorists expected up to give up Islamic terrorism?

That’s just, you know, racist or something.

Well, to be fair, the history of "negotiations" between every settler colonialist state that has ever existed in human history and the natives they subjugated (America and Indians, Afrikaners and black south africans, France and Algeria's natives etc, etc...) can be summed up by the 4th item FY forgot to mention:

The natives were expected to spread their asscheeks and hope it wouldn't be too fat.

So no one can say I'm unfairly singling out Israel.

between every settler colonialist state that has ever existed in human history and the natives they subjugated (America and Indians, Afrikaners and black south africans, France and Algeria's natives etc, etc...)

Muslims, and everyone they invaded.

 

[Mindful]

Hollywood legend and longtime pro-Israel activist Jon Voight voiced support on Sunday for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu in the country’s general elections next month. He also cautiously endorsed the newly unveiled United States plan for peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

In exclusive comments to The Algemeiner, Voight called it the first such proposed deal “with feet on the ground.”

He added, “It’s the first one that’s taken a responsible approach. Much truth has been spoken in it and we have to accept the truth before we can make amends, and much harm has been done to Israel over the years. Many lies have been put in place and attacks have taken their toll. Much blood has been spilled.”


Hollywood Icon Jon Voight Voices Support for Netanyahu in Upcoming Election, Endorses New Middle East Peace Plan

 

[José]

Originally posted by FY
1 They are expected to give up terror and Hamas.

2 They are expected to root out corruption in their leadership.

3 They are expected to assimilate the refugees in their new state, while Lebanon, Jordan and Syria are expected to give citizenship to the rest.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

What do you call a political entity designed by foreign powers, with no historical and popular legitimacy, without a military, crammed with refugees dreaming of going home, crisscrossed by ethnically segregated roads, with adjacent settlements, checkpoints and military bases between the "cantons", bridges and tunnels "uniting" its disconnected pieces?

American and Israeli political leaders have lost any final vestiges of shame if they ever had any...

They don't even sugarcoat the arab bantustans they devise any more.

 

[Mindful]

Looking back to 2011. What if.......?


What if the Arabs had recognized Israel in 1948?

ABDULATEEF AL-MULHIM
March 11, 201121:41

Now, the Palestinians are on their own, each Arab country is busy with its own crisis and has put the Palestinian-Israeli conflict on hold.


What if the Arabs had recognized Israel in 1948?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

1 They are expected to give up terror and Hamas.

2 They are expected to root out corruption in their leadership.

3 They are expected to assimilate the refugees in their new state, while Lebanon, Jordan and Syria are expected to give citizenship to the rest.

You forgot the most important item:

4 They are expected to spread their asscheeks wide open and close their eyes.

I know, isn't it terrible if you are expected to root out corruption in your own leadership? "Who are you to tell me this? If I want to have leaders who live in mansions and fly in private jets and never allow us to have an election, that's my own beezwax."

It's equally as horrible to assimilate refugees. Don't you think my father would still like to live in the DP camp he was in after WW2? Don't you think my mom would still want to be in that tent that she lived in when she first came to Israel? What could they be thinking?

 

[Mindful]

1 They are expected to give up terror and Hamas.

2 They are expected to root out corruption in their leadership.

3 They are expected to assimilate the refugees in their new state, while Lebanon, Jordan and Syria are expected to give citizenship to the rest.

You forgot the most important item:

4 They are expected to spread their asscheeks wide open and close their eyes.

I know, isn't it terrible if you are expected to root out corruption in your own leadership? "Who are you to tell me this? If I want to have leaders who live in mansions and fly in private jets and never allow us to have an election, that's my own beezwax."

It's equally as horrible to assimilate refugees. Don't you think my father would still like to live in the DP camp he was in after WW2? Don't you think my mom would still want to be in that tent that she lived in when she first came to Israel? What could they be thinking?

There were 6 million DP in Europe following WW2.


I wonder what happened to them.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ et al,

As I said in Posting #15686 (Jan 24, 2020), future criminal life-style is often predictable by reviewing the history of past criminal behaviors. That applies equally to the future response of any Peace Plan that might be presented to the criminal; positions held by the Arab Palestinians.

Since the invitation to assist the UN Palestine Commission in the implementation of a peaceful solution to the "Question of Palestine," the Arab Palestinians adopted a political posture of belligerence, hostility and violence.

"The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power group of powers to establish a Jewish state in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense."

"It is very unwise and fruitless to ask any commission to proceed to Palestine because not a single Arab will cooperate with the said Commission."

The "Arabs of Palestine cannot recognize the Balfour Declaration, the Mandate of Palestine or any situation arising or derived therefrom."
​

(COMMENT)

There is NO reason in the world to suggest that the majority of the Arab League or the Arab Palestinians would adopt a peaceful posture or any non-violence solution to the conflict. They are people who have repeatedly provided support for acts of terrorism and anti-Semitism.

I cannot (for the life of me) understand why any peaceful nation would provide any further support to the Arab Palestinian Regime.


Most Respectfully,
R