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Ann Arbor, MIWhich Muslims nations have you visited?Many American jews have dual Israeli citizenship, meaning dual loyalty with a foreign country. Which is another reason they can't be trusted. Because they would gladly choose Israel over America if forced to make a choice. ..I hate to break it to you but many Israeli Jews spend half the year in the US and the majority of Jews are Zionists even though they won’t admit it in public.
No. It doesn't mean it was a political stunt.Then you must not be keeping up with events. There was never a possibility that Trump would be removed from office meaning the entire impeachment show was never anything but a political stunt. Virtually all the analysts expect Trump to be reelected. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the Gulf states all helped the US develop the plan and now support it, so it will not result in a war involving Israel.If at the end of the year, Trump has not been impeached, and he is re-elected, and there is no war in the ME? I will be pleasantly surprised.You are going to be so disappointed."Peace.plan" without consulting with one of the parties?lol What does it mean that it is dead on arrival? Israel will proceed with the annexation of the Jordan Valley and its settlements no matter what the PA does - the cabinet will meet on Tuesday to vote on it and the Knesset will fast track the annexations. The Palestinians can only hurt themselves by continuing to boycott the plan.
It's a crappy propaganda stunt, and Israel was gonna anex the land anyway.
Get ready for another uprising.
. . . or an area wide conflagration.
TY.
That's simply not true but then only rarely do you post anything that is true. Oslo was simply an attempt to appease the rabidly anti semitic Arab nations without any research into how it would impact either the Israelis or the Palestinians. It never took into consideration how the weak and corrupt political leadership of the Palestinians was and the rabid anti semitism of the people would make it impossible for them to maintain peace with Israel. Arafat understood this and begged Clinton and Barak not to push him to a final agreement, but both Clinton and Barak were so eager to add an Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty to their legacies that they pushed him anyway and Arafat responded with the second intifada.All the plans involved a great deal of research.The PA was repeatedly invited to participate in drawing up the plan but refused to even consider the idea. However despite the PA's refusal to represent the interests of the people it governed the plan was drawn up in consultation with Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states to ensure all the interests of the Palestinian people were properly addressed. Even now it is not too late for the PA to represent the interests of the people it governs since everything in the plan is subject to negotiations between Israel and the PA."Peace.plan" without consulting with one of the parties?lol What does it mean that it is dead on arrival? Israel will proceed with the annexation of the Jordan Valley and its settlements no matter what the PA does - the cabinet will meet on Tuesday to vote on it and the Knesset will fast track the annexations. The Palestinians can only hurt themselves by continuing to boycott the plan.It's dead on arrival. This really isn't anything but netanyahu's wish list.Frankly I think Israel was long planning an annexation, this formalizes it in the shape of a "US sanctioned" plan and throws a rope to two troubled political leaders.
I've not finished reading it though - and there is some merit in some of the suggestions.
I can't agree with any plan that involves forced population expulsions, and I understand Israel's need for security and concerns about Hamas. Any plan must address that.
The map though, is not detailed and doesn't really show the many many settlements (some quite small) that will be "Israeli" territory surrounded by "Palestinian" territory - the measles map. This is exactly why the settlements are such a core problem for the Palestinians. The lack of contiguousness is a huge issue that I'm not sure is really understood in the plan - BUT - there might be more detail further in besides a heavy dependence on "state of the art infrastructure" and "high speed rail."
Some things have a bit of "merit" as you've said, but I out that in the category of blind chance. Even a broken closk is right twice a day.
It's a crappy propaganda stunt, and Israel was gonna anex the land anyway.
Get ready for another uprising.
No other plan has ever been the product of so much research and analysis as this one, so calling it a crappy propaganda stunt is just an expression of ignorance and bigotry on your part.
What do you mean by another uprising? The last one never ended. There are fewer terrorist attacks now only because the security barrier nd the stepped up activities of the IDF, Border Police and Shin Bet make it nearly impossible for the terrorists to carry out successful attacks, nevertheless, daily Israelis security forces foil attempts to murder Jews by Palestinian terrorists being paid by the PA. .
It's no secret that most Israelis want to annex the settlements, but there is a dispute among them about how much to annex. The most common proposals run from just annexing the major settlements to annexing all of area C, about 60% of Judea and Samaria, which in the absence of a final agreement with the Palestinians is the most logical thing to do. The US peace plan only allows Israel to annex about 50% of area C and freezes construction outside of the current settlements for four years, and it awards the other half of area C to the new Palestinian state if the PA agrees to the plan.lol What does it mean that it is dead on arrival? Israel will proceed with the annexation of the Jordan Valley and its settlements no matter what the PA does - the cabinet will meet on Tuesday to vote on it and the Knesset will fast track the annexations. The Palestinians can only hurt themselves by continuing to boycott the plan.It's dead on arrival. This really isn't anything but netanyahu's wish list.As far as the Palestinians are concerned that's it, it's over.That is one concern.
Frankly I think Israel was long planning an annexation, this formalizes it in the shape of a "US sanctioned" plan and throws a rope to two troubled political leaders.
I've not finished reading it though - and there is some merit in some of the suggestions.
I can't agree with any plan that involves forced population expulsions, and I understand Israel's need for security and concerns about Hamas. Any plan must address that.
The map though, is not detailed and doesn't really show the many many settlements (some quite small) that will be "Israeli" territory surrounded by "Palestinian" territory - the measles map. This is exactly why the settlements are such a core problem for the Palestinians. The lack of contiguousness is a huge issue that I'm not sure is really understood in the plan - BUT - there might be more detail further in besides a heavy dependence on "state of the art infrastructure" and "high speed rail."
Some things have a bit of "merit" as you've said, but I out that in the category of blind chance. Even a broken closk is right twice a day.
Agree. Annexation, IMO, was always in their plans, based on their strategy of shifting the demographics to make it more favorable, this just officially opens the door for them.
lol Since impeachment is meant to be a process for removing a president from office and there was never a chance Trump would be removed from office, it can be nothing but a political stunt.No. It doesn't mean it was a political stunt.Then you must not be keeping up with events. There was never a possibility that Trump would be removed from office meaning the entire impeachment show was never anything but a political stunt. Virtually all the analysts expect Trump to be reelected. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the Gulf states all helped the US develop the plan and now support it, so it will not result in a war involving Israel.If at the end of the year, Trump has not been impeached, and he is re-elected, and there is no war in the ME? I will be pleasantly surprised.You are going to be so disappointed."Peace.plan" without consulting with one of the parties?
It's a crappy propaganda stunt, and Israel was gonna anex the land anyway.
Get ready for another uprising.
. . . or an area wide conflagration.
TY.
As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate. The annexation map was drawn up so that no Arab villages would be annexed. While the Palestinians refused to participate in drawing up the plan, in an effort to be fair, the US worked closely with Arab states including Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both strong supporters of the Palestinian national aspirations, to fairly represent Palestinian interests, and both countries strongly support the plan.I am conflicted. The devil is in the details and this was put together by Israel and the US excluding the palestinians. Israel seems to get everything they want. What exactly are the pals getting in terms of what they want? I was listening to an informative set of interviews on this morning on BBC world. I am on my phone and can't download it at the moment, but will later.
One point made was Israel can annex Arab villages to Palestine. What exactly does that mean? Arab Israeli's by far prefer their Israeli citizenship. They chose, they are well integrated. Does this mean forcing people to lose their citizenship? Shouldn't the people affected have some say?
Israel did not get everything it wanted. If the Palestinians agree to participate in the plan, Israel will have to recognize a sovereign Palestinian state in approximately 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza, and Israel will have to allow the Palestinians to operate their own shipping companies out of Haifa and Ashdod, allowing the Palestinians direct access to North Africa and Europe without going through Israeli customs. Both of these items are very unpopular in Israel. In addition, Israel will have to agree to a four year freeze on construction in area that go to the Palestinians if they agree to the plan.
What the Palestinians get is US and Israeli recognition of a sovereign state of Palestine in 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza - ,making their new state eligible for membership in the UN -their own shipping companies in Haifa and Ashdod that will not have to go through Israeli customs, and sufficient investment in the Palestinian economy - at least $25,000.000,000 - to double or triple their GDP and wages and salaries.
The question is not how this compares with what the Palestinians want, but how this compares to other options the Palestinians can realistically aspire to, and the answer is the only other option is the status quo, all this plan will cost the Palestinians is the inestimable joy they receive from murdering Jews.
Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Did Jared Kushner have any talks with the Palestinians? Did he attempt any talks while formulating this? I don't think he did. He hashed it out first with Israel...no Palestinian invite. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember reading anything about Palestinians being invited 0 only Jared trotting off to Israel.
And add Trump's actions towards them regarding Jerusalem, their consulate, and international aid - of course they weren't going to be part of it later.
Kushner basically trashed the Palestinian people with the type of statement that harkens back to the Paternalistic attitudes of the colonial empires:
"Do they want to have a state? Do they want to have a better life? If they do, we have created a framework for them to have it, and we’re going to treat them in a very respectful manner. If they don’t, then they’re going to screw up another opportunity like they’ve screwed up every other opportunity that they’ve ever had in their existence."
There is at best, a certain naiveté and arrogance in some of it. The development ideas are straight out of an American frame of reference and there is a certain pie-in-the-sky aspect to it (where in the heck is all the money going to come from?). There is a heavy reliance on state of the art this and high speed that and a hell of a lot of infrastructure. It reminds me of a real-estate developer's model for a proposed community sales pitch. Most often, development works best in conjunction with the communities it is supposed to serve and a bottom up not top down approach. Has anyone asked the Palestinian people (not leadership) what they envision?
I've only read the first 30 pages, and this is what I've noticed so far.
That said - I do think there are some possibilities, but it may have been rendered toxic by the method in which it was created.
And still - where will all this money come from? A lot of promises....
That's crazy.Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Indeed, why not negotiate for what is still available. The Palestinians can still negotiate to secure what is is available, US and Israeli recognition of a contiguous sovereign Palestinian state in 70% of Judea and Samaria and massive investment in the Palestinian infrastructure and economy that will double or triple incomes or they can refuse to negotiate and get nothing. Of course the Palestinians will refuse to accept anything less than everything they want because that's what they have always done.As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate. The annexation map was drawn up so that no Arab villages would be annexed. While the Palestinians refused to participate in drawing up the plan, in an effort to be fair, the US worked closely with Arab states including Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both strong supporters of the Palestinian national aspirations, to fairly represent Palestinian interests, and both countries strongly support the plan.I am conflicted. The devil is in the details and this was put together by Israel and the US excluding the palestinians. Israel seems to get everything they want. What exactly are the pals getting in terms of what they want? I was listening to an informative set of interviews on this morning on BBC world. I am on my phone and can't download it at the moment, but will later.
One point made was Israel can annex Arab villages to Palestine. What exactly does that mean? Arab Israeli's by far prefer their Israeli citizenship. They chose, they are well integrated. Does this mean forcing people to lose their citizenship? Shouldn't the people affected have some say?
Israel did not get everything it wanted. If the Palestinians agree to participate in the plan, Israel will have to recognize a sovereign Palestinian state in approximately 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza, and Israel will have to allow the Palestinians to operate their own shipping companies out of Haifa and Ashdod, allowing the Palestinians direct access to North Africa and Europe without going through Israeli customs. Both of these items are very unpopular in Israel. In addition, Israel will have to agree to a four year freeze on construction in area that go to the Palestinians if they agree to the plan.
What the Palestinians get is US and Israeli recognition of a sovereign state of Palestine in 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza - ,making their new state eligible for membership in the UN -their own shipping companies in Haifa and Ashdod that will not have to go through Israeli customs, and sufficient investment in the Palestinian economy - at least $25,000.000,000 - to double or triple their GDP and wages and salaries.
The question is not how this compares with what the Palestinians want, but how this compares to other options the Palestinians can realistically aspire to, and the answer is the only other option is the status quo, all this plan will cost the Palestinians is the inestimable joy they receive from murdering Jews.
Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Did Jared Kushner have any talks with the Palestinians? Did he attempt any talks while formulating this? I don't think he did. He hashed it out first with Israel...no Palestinian invite. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember reading anything about Palestinians being invited 0 only Jared trotting off to Israel.
And add Trump's actions towards them regarding Jerusalem, their consulate, and international aid - of course they weren't going to be part of it later.
Kushner basically trashed the Palestinian people with the type of statement that harkens back to the Paternalistic attitudes of the colonial empires:
"Do they want to have a state? Do they want to have a better life? If they do, we have created a framework for them to have it, and we’re going to treat them in a very respectful manner. If they don’t, then they’re going to screw up another opportunity like they’ve screwed up every other opportunity that they’ve ever had in their existence."
There is at best, a certain naiveté and arrogance in some of it. The development ideas are straight out of an American frame of reference and there is a certain pie-in-the-sky aspect to it (where in the heck is all the money going to come from?). There is a heavy reliance on state of the art this and high speed that and a hell of a lot of infrastructure. It reminds me of a real-estate developer's model for a proposed community sales pitch. Most often, development works best in conjunction with the communities it is supposed to serve and a bottom up not top down approach. Has anyone asked the Palestinian people (not leadership) what they envision?
I've only read the first 30 pages, and this is what I've noticed so far.
That said - I do think there are some possibilities, but it may have been rendered toxic by the method in which it was created.
And still - where will all this money come from? A lot of promises....That's crazy.Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Jerusalem is off the table. Refugees are off the table Settlements are off the table. The Jordan Valley is off the table. Controlling your own borders is off the table.
So why don't you want to negotiate?
As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate. The annexation map was drawn up so that no Arab villages would be annexed. While the Palestinians refused to participate in drawing up the plan, in an effort to be fair, the US worked closely with Arab states including Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both strong supporters of the Palestinian national aspirations, to fairly represent Palestinian interests, and both countries strongly support the plan.I am conflicted. The devil is in the details and this was put together by Israel and the US excluding the palestinians. Israel seems to get everything they want. What exactly are the pals getting in terms of what they want? I was listening to an informative set of interviews on this morning on BBC world. I am on my phone and can't download it at the moment, but will later.
One point made was Israel can annex Arab villages to Palestine. What exactly does that mean? Arab Israeli's by far prefer their Israeli citizenship. They chose, they are well integrated. Does this mean forcing people to lose their citizenship? Shouldn't the people affected have some say?
Israel did not get everything it wanted. If the Palestinians agree to participate in the plan, Israel will have to recognize a sovereign Palestinian state in approximately 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza, and Israel will have to allow the Palestinians to operate their own shipping companies out of Haifa and Ashdod, allowing the Palestinians direct access to North Africa and Europe without going through Israeli customs. Both of these items are very unpopular in Israel. In addition, Israel will have to agree to a four year freeze on construction in area that go to the Palestinians if they agree to the plan.
What the Palestinians get is US and Israeli recognition of a sovereign state of Palestine in 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza - ,making their new state eligible for membership in the UN -their own shipping companies in Haifa and Ashdod that will not have to go through Israeli customs, and sufficient investment in the Palestinian economy - at least $25,000.000,000 - to double or triple their GDP and wages and salaries.
The question is not how this compares with what the Palestinians want, but how this compares to other options the Palestinians can realistically aspire to, and the answer is the only other option is the status quo, all this plan will cost the Palestinians is the inestimable joy they receive from murdering Jews.
Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Did Jared Kushner have any talks with the Palestinians? Did he attempt any talks while formulating this? I don't think he did. He hashed it out first with Israel...no Palestinian invite. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember reading anything about Palestinians being invited 0 only Jared trotting off to Israel.
And add Trump's actions towards them regarding Jerusalem, their consulate, and international aid - of course they weren't going to be part of it later.
Kushner basically trashed the Palestinian people with the type of statement that harkens back to the Paternalistic attitudes of the colonial empires:
"Do they want to have a state? Do they want to have a better life? If they do, we have created a framework for them to have it, and we’re going to treat them in a very respectful manner. If they don’t, then they’re going to screw up another opportunity like they’ve screwed up every other opportunity that they’ve ever had in their existence."
There is at best, a certain naiveté and arrogance in some of it. The development ideas are straight out of an American frame of reference and there is a certain pie-in-the-sky aspect to it (where in the heck is all the money going to come from?). There is a heavy reliance on state of the art this and high speed that and a hell of a lot of infrastructure. It reminds me of a real-estate developer's model for a proposed community sales pitch. Most often, development works best in conjunction with the communities it is supposed to serve and a bottom up not top down approach. Has anyone asked the Palestinian people (not leadership) what they envision?
I've only read the first 30 pages, and this is what I've noticed so far.
That said - I do think there are some possibilities, but it may have been rendered toxic by the method in which it was created.
And still - where will all this money come from? A lot of promises....That's crazy.Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Jerusalem is off the table. Refugees are off the table Settlements are off the table. The Jordan Valley is off the table. Controlling your own borders is off the table.
So why don't you want to negotiate?
Negotiate with violent losers?As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate. The annexation map was drawn up so that no Arab villages would be annexed. While the Palestinians refused to participate in drawing up the plan, in an effort to be fair, the US worked closely with Arab states including Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both strong supporters of the Palestinian national aspirations, to fairly represent Palestinian interests, and both countries strongly support the plan.I am conflicted. The devil is in the details and this was put together by Israel and the US excluding the palestinians. Israel seems to get everything they want. What exactly are the pals getting in terms of what they want? I was listening to an informative set of interviews on this morning on BBC world. I am on my phone and can't download it at the moment, but will later.
One point made was Israel can annex Arab villages to Palestine. What exactly does that mean? Arab Israeli's by far prefer their Israeli citizenship. They chose, they are well integrated. Does this mean forcing people to lose their citizenship? Shouldn't the people affected have some say?
Israel did not get everything it wanted. If the Palestinians agree to participate in the plan, Israel will have to recognize a sovereign Palestinian state in approximately 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza, and Israel will have to allow the Palestinians to operate their own shipping companies out of Haifa and Ashdod, allowing the Palestinians direct access to North Africa and Europe without going through Israeli customs. Both of these items are very unpopular in Israel. In addition, Israel will have to agree to a four year freeze on construction in area that go to the Palestinians if they agree to the plan.
What the Palestinians get is US and Israeli recognition of a sovereign state of Palestine in 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza - ,making their new state eligible for membership in the UN -their own shipping companies in Haifa and Ashdod that will not have to go through Israeli customs, and sufficient investment in the Palestinian economy - at least $25,000.000,000 - to double or triple their GDP and wages and salaries.
The question is not how this compares with what the Palestinians want, but how this compares to other options the Palestinians can realistically aspire to, and the answer is the only other option is the status quo, all this plan will cost the Palestinians is the inestimable joy they receive from murdering Jews.
Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Did Jared Kushner have any talks with the Palestinians? Did he attempt any talks while formulating this? I don't think he did. He hashed it out first with Israel...no Palestinian invite. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember reading anything about Palestinians being invited 0 only Jared trotting off to Israel.
And add Trump's actions towards them regarding Jerusalem, their consulate, and international aid - of course they weren't going to be part of it later.
Kushner basically trashed the Palestinian people with the type of statement that harkens back to the Paternalistic attitudes of the colonial empires:
"Do they want to have a state? Do they want to have a better life? If they do, we have created a framework for them to have it, and we’re going to treat them in a very respectful manner. If they don’t, then they’re going to screw up another opportunity like they’ve screwed up every other opportunity that they’ve ever had in their existence."
There is at best, a certain naiveté and arrogance in some of it. The development ideas are straight out of an American frame of reference and there is a certain pie-in-the-sky aspect to it (where in the heck is all the money going to come from?). There is a heavy reliance on state of the art this and high speed that and a hell of a lot of infrastructure. It reminds me of a real-estate developer's model for a proposed community sales pitch. Most often, development works best in conjunction with the communities it is supposed to serve and a bottom up not top down approach. Has anyone asked the Palestinian people (not leadership) what they envision?
I've only read the first 30 pages, and this is what I've noticed so far.
That said - I do think there are some possibilities, but it may have been rendered toxic by the method in which it was created.
And still - where will all this money come from? A lot of promises....That's crazy.Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Jerusalem is off the table. Refugees are off the table Settlements are off the table. The Jordan Valley is off the table. Controlling your own borders is off the table.
So why don't you want to negotiate?
Rationalist Judaism: The Know-It-Alls About Israel
The Know-It-Alls About Israel
Among people I know (at least insofar as being Facebook friends), I've broadly seen two types of responses to Trump's "Deal of the Century" Peace Plan.
One group of people summarily rejects the idea of giving the Palestinians anything at all. Since they are "the enemy" and this is our land, we should not give them anything.
But none of these people propose what we should do instead. What's the long-term plan? Continue to rule over the Palestinians forever, without giving them the vote?
Another group of people summarily rejects the plan due to it not giving the Palestinians a fully independent state.
But none of these people propose what should and could realistically be done instead. How on earth can the Palestinians be given a fully independent state which will, in all likelihood, be used as a base for rocket attacks (and more) on Israel - with Israel politically restricted from responding due to the rockets being fired from civilian areas?
I'm not saying that I'm a fan of the Trump plan. My point is to demonstrate the weaknesses in the position of those who are so certain that it is utterly wrong, without acknowledging that their own position also has serious drawbacks. It's an essentially intractable problem with no good solution.
Negotiate with violent losers?As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate. The annexation map was drawn up so that no Arab villages would be annexed. While the Palestinians refused to participate in drawing up the plan, in an effort to be fair, the US worked closely with Arab states including Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both strong supporters of the Palestinian national aspirations, to fairly represent Palestinian interests, and both countries strongly support the plan.I am conflicted. The devil is in the details and this was put together by Israel and the US excluding the palestinians. Israel seems to get everything they want. What exactly are the pals getting in terms of what they want? I was listening to an informative set of interviews on this morning on BBC world. I am on my phone and can't download it at the moment, but will later.
One point made was Israel can annex Arab villages to Palestine. What exactly does that mean? Arab Israeli's by far prefer their Israeli citizenship. They chose, they are well integrated. Does this mean forcing people to lose their citizenship? Shouldn't the people affected have some say?
Israel did not get everything it wanted. If the Palestinians agree to participate in the plan, Israel will have to recognize a sovereign Palestinian state in approximately 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza, and Israel will have to allow the Palestinians to operate their own shipping companies out of Haifa and Ashdod, allowing the Palestinians direct access to North Africa and Europe without going through Israeli customs. Both of these items are very unpopular in Israel. In addition, Israel will have to agree to a four year freeze on construction in area that go to the Palestinians if they agree to the plan.
What the Palestinians get is US and Israeli recognition of a sovereign state of Palestine in 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza - ,making their new state eligible for membership in the UN -their own shipping companies in Haifa and Ashdod that will not have to go through Israeli customs, and sufficient investment in the Palestinian economy - at least $25,000.000,000 - to double or triple their GDP and wages and salaries.
The question is not how this compares with what the Palestinians want, but how this compares to other options the Palestinians can realistically aspire to, and the answer is the only other option is the status quo, all this plan will cost the Palestinians is the inestimable joy they receive from murdering Jews.
Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Did Jared Kushner have any talks with the Palestinians? Did he attempt any talks while formulating this? I don't think he did. He hashed it out first with Israel...no Palestinian invite. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember reading anything about Palestinians being invited 0 only Jared trotting off to Israel.
And add Trump's actions towards them regarding Jerusalem, their consulate, and international aid - of course they weren't going to be part of it later.
Kushner basically trashed the Palestinian people with the type of statement that harkens back to the Paternalistic attitudes of the colonial empires:
"Do they want to have a state? Do they want to have a better life? If they do, we have created a framework for them to have it, and we’re going to treat them in a very respectful manner. If they don’t, then they’re going to screw up another opportunity like they’ve screwed up every other opportunity that they’ve ever had in their existence."
There is at best, a certain naiveté and arrogance in some of it. The development ideas are straight out of an American frame of reference and there is a certain pie-in-the-sky aspect to it (where in the heck is all the money going to come from?). There is a heavy reliance on state of the art this and high speed that and a hell of a lot of infrastructure. It reminds me of a real-estate developer's model for a proposed community sales pitch. Most often, development works best in conjunction with the communities it is supposed to serve and a bottom up not top down approach. Has anyone asked the Palestinian people (not leadership) what they envision?
I've only read the first 30 pages, and this is what I've noticed so far.
That said - I do think there are some possibilities, but it may have been rendered toxic by the method in which it was created.
And still - where will all this money come from? A lot of promises....That's crazy.Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Jerusalem is off the table. Refugees are off the table Settlements are off the table. The Jordan Valley is off the table. Controlling your own borders is off the table.
So why don't you want to negotiate?
The plan requires the Palestinians, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad to completely disarm, end all payments to terrorists and end all demonization of Israel and Jews within 4 years or they don't get a state. In four years? Maybe in four generations.Negotiate with violent losers?As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate. The annexation map was drawn up so that no Arab villages would be annexed. While the Palestinians refused to participate in drawing up the plan, in an effort to be fair, the US worked closely with Arab states including Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both strong supporters of the Palestinian national aspirations, to fairly represent Palestinian interests, and both countries strongly support the plan.I am conflicted. The devil is in the details and this was put together by Israel and the US excluding the palestinians. Israel seems to get everything they want. What exactly are the pals getting in terms of what they want? I was listening to an informative set of interviews on this morning on BBC world. I am on my phone and can't download it at the moment, but will later.
One point made was Israel can annex Arab villages to Palestine. What exactly does that mean? Arab Israeli's by far prefer their Israeli citizenship. They chose, they are well integrated. Does this mean forcing people to lose their citizenship? Shouldn't the people affected have some say?
Israel did not get everything it wanted. If the Palestinians agree to participate in the plan, Israel will have to recognize a sovereign Palestinian state in approximately 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza, and Israel will have to allow the Palestinians to operate their own shipping companies out of Haifa and Ashdod, allowing the Palestinians direct access to North Africa and Europe without going through Israeli customs. Both of these items are very unpopular in Israel. In addition, Israel will have to agree to a four year freeze on construction in area that go to the Palestinians if they agree to the plan.
What the Palestinians get is US and Israeli recognition of a sovereign state of Palestine in 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza - ,making their new state eligible for membership in the UN -their own shipping companies in Haifa and Ashdod that will not have to go through Israeli customs, and sufficient investment in the Palestinian economy - at least $25,000.000,000 - to double or triple their GDP and wages and salaries.
The question is not how this compares with what the Palestinians want, but how this compares to other options the Palestinians can realistically aspire to, and the answer is the only other option is the status quo, all this plan will cost the Palestinians is the inestimable joy they receive from murdering Jews.
Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Did Jared Kushner have any talks with the Palestinians? Did he attempt any talks while formulating this? I don't think he did. He hashed it out first with Israel...no Palestinian invite. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember reading anything about Palestinians being invited 0 only Jared trotting off to Israel.
And add Trump's actions towards them regarding Jerusalem, their consulate, and international aid - of course they weren't going to be part of it later.
Kushner basically trashed the Palestinian people with the type of statement that harkens back to the Paternalistic attitudes of the colonial empires:
"Do they want to have a state? Do they want to have a better life? If they do, we have created a framework for them to have it, and we’re going to treat them in a very respectful manner. If they don’t, then they’re going to screw up another opportunity like they’ve screwed up every other opportunity that they’ve ever had in their existence."
There is at best, a certain naiveté and arrogance in some of it. The development ideas are straight out of an American frame of reference and there is a certain pie-in-the-sky aspect to it (where in the heck is all the money going to come from?). There is a heavy reliance on state of the art this and high speed that and a hell of a lot of infrastructure. It reminds me of a real-estate developer's model for a proposed community sales pitch. Most often, development works best in conjunction with the communities it is supposed to serve and a bottom up not top down approach. Has anyone asked the Palestinian people (not leadership) what they envision?
I've only read the first 30 pages, and this is what I've noticed so far.
That said - I do think there are some possibilities, but it may have been rendered toxic by the method in which it was created.
And still - where will all this money come from? A lot of promises....That's crazy.Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Jerusalem is off the table. Refugees are off the table Settlements are off the table. The Jordan Valley is off the table. Controlling your own borders is off the table.
So why don't you want to negotiate?
Some points from the article I posted upthread resonated with me. How do we know rocket attacks on Israel made from a future Palestinian state won't happen?
Gazan style.
The plan requires the Palestinians, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad to completely disarm, end all payments to terrorists and end all demonization of Israel and Jews within 4 years or they don't get a state. In four years? Maybe in four generations.Negotiate with violent losers?As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate. The annexation map was drawn up so that no Arab villages would be annexed. While the Palestinians refused to participate in drawing up the plan, in an effort to be fair, the US worked closely with Arab states including Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both strong supporters of the Palestinian national aspirations, to fairly represent Palestinian interests, and both countries strongly support the plan.
Israel did not get everything it wanted. If the Palestinians agree to participate in the plan, Israel will have to recognize a sovereign Palestinian state in approximately 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza, and Israel will have to allow the Palestinians to operate their own shipping companies out of Haifa and Ashdod, allowing the Palestinians direct access to North Africa and Europe without going through Israeli customs. Both of these items are very unpopular in Israel. In addition, Israel will have to agree to a four year freeze on construction in area that go to the Palestinians if they agree to the plan.
What the Palestinians get is US and Israeli recognition of a sovereign state of Palestine in 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza - ,making their new state eligible for membership in the UN -their own shipping companies in Haifa and Ashdod that will not have to go through Israeli customs, and sufficient investment in the Palestinian economy - at least $25,000.000,000 - to double or triple their GDP and wages and salaries.
The question is not how this compares with what the Palestinians want, but how this compares to other options the Palestinians can realistically aspire to, and the answer is the only other option is the status quo, all this plan will cost the Palestinians is the inestimable joy they receive from murdering Jews.
Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Did Jared Kushner have any talks with the Palestinians? Did he attempt any talks while formulating this? I don't think he did. He hashed it out first with Israel...no Palestinian invite. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember reading anything about Palestinians being invited 0 only Jared trotting off to Israel.
And add Trump's actions towards them regarding Jerusalem, their consulate, and international aid - of course they weren't going to be part of it later.
Kushner basically trashed the Palestinian people with the type of statement that harkens back to the Paternalistic attitudes of the colonial empires:
"Do they want to have a state? Do they want to have a better life? If they do, we have created a framework for them to have it, and we’re going to treat them in a very respectful manner. If they don’t, then they’re going to screw up another opportunity like they’ve screwed up every other opportunity that they’ve ever had in their existence."
There is at best, a certain naiveté and arrogance in some of it. The development ideas are straight out of an American frame of reference and there is a certain pie-in-the-sky aspect to it (where in the heck is all the money going to come from?). There is a heavy reliance on state of the art this and high speed that and a hell of a lot of infrastructure. It reminds me of a real-estate developer's model for a proposed community sales pitch. Most often, development works best in conjunction with the communities it is supposed to serve and a bottom up not top down approach. Has anyone asked the Palestinian people (not leadership) what they envision?
I've only read the first 30 pages, and this is what I've noticed so far.
That said - I do think there are some possibilities, but it may have been rendered toxic by the method in which it was created.
And still - where will all this money come from? A lot of promises....That's crazy.Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Jerusalem is off the table. Refugees are off the table Settlements are off the table. The Jordan Valley is off the table. Controlling your own borders is off the table.
So why don't you want to negotiate?
Some points from the article I posted upthread resonated with me. How do we know rocket attacks on Israel made from a future Palestinian state won't happen?
Gazan style.
The plan requires the Palestinians, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad to completely disarm, end all payments to terrorists and end all demonization of Israel and Jews within 4 years or they don't get a state. In four years? Maybe in four generations.Negotiate with violent losers?As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate. The annexation map was drawn up so that no Arab villages would be annexed. While the Palestinians refused to participate in drawing up the plan, in an effort to be fair, the US worked closely with Arab states including Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both strong supporters of the Palestinian national aspirations, to fairly represent Palestinian interests, and both countries strongly support the plan.
Israel did not get everything it wanted. If the Palestinians agree to participate in the plan, Israel will have to recognize a sovereign Palestinian state in approximately 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza, and Israel will have to allow the Palestinians to operate their own shipping companies out of Haifa and Ashdod, allowing the Palestinians direct access to North Africa and Europe without going through Israeli customs. Both of these items are very unpopular in Israel. In addition, Israel will have to agree to a four year freeze on construction in area that go to the Palestinians if they agree to the plan.
What the Palestinians get is US and Israeli recognition of a sovereign state of Palestine in 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza - ,making their new state eligible for membership in the UN -their own shipping companies in Haifa and Ashdod that will not have to go through Israeli customs, and sufficient investment in the Palestinian economy - at least $25,000.000,000 - to double or triple their GDP and wages and salaries.
The question is not how this compares with what the Palestinians want, but how this compares to other options the Palestinians can realistically aspire to, and the answer is the only other option is the status quo, all this plan will cost the Palestinians is the inestimable joy they receive from murdering Jews.
Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Did Jared Kushner have any talks with the Palestinians? Did he attempt any talks while formulating this? I don't think he did. He hashed it out first with Israel...no Palestinian invite. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember reading anything about Palestinians being invited 0 only Jared trotting off to Israel.
And add Trump's actions towards them regarding Jerusalem, their consulate, and international aid - of course they weren't going to be part of it later.
Kushner basically trashed the Palestinian people with the type of statement that harkens back to the Paternalistic attitudes of the colonial empires:
"Do they want to have a state? Do they want to have a better life? If they do, we have created a framework for them to have it, and we’re going to treat them in a very respectful manner. If they don’t, then they’re going to screw up another opportunity like they’ve screwed up every other opportunity that they’ve ever had in their existence."
There is at best, a certain naiveté and arrogance in some of it. The development ideas are straight out of an American frame of reference and there is a certain pie-in-the-sky aspect to it (where in the heck is all the money going to come from?). There is a heavy reliance on state of the art this and high speed that and a hell of a lot of infrastructure. It reminds me of a real-estate developer's model for a proposed community sales pitch. Most often, development works best in conjunction with the communities it is supposed to serve and a bottom up not top down approach. Has anyone asked the Palestinian people (not leadership) what they envision?
I've only read the first 30 pages, and this is what I've noticed so far.
That said - I do think there are some possibilities, but it may have been rendered toxic by the method in which it was created.
And still - where will all this money come from? A lot of promises....That's crazy.Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Jerusalem is off the table. Refugees are off the table Settlements are off the table. The Jordan Valley is off the table. Controlling your own borders is off the table.
So why don't you want to negotiate?
Some points from the article I posted upthread resonated with me. How do we know rocket attacks on Israel made from a future Palestinian state won't happen?
Gazan style.
Under the plan the Palestinians have four years to demonstrate they have made these changes or no state and no money.The plan requires the Palestinians, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad to completely disarm, end all payments to terrorists and end all demonization of Israel and Jews within 4 years or they don't get a state. In four years? Maybe in four generations.Negotiate with violent losers?Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Did Jared Kushner have any talks with the Palestinians? Did he attempt any talks while formulating this? I don't think he did. He hashed it out first with Israel...no Palestinian invite. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember reading anything about Palestinians being invited 0 only Jared trotting off to Israel.
And add Trump's actions towards them regarding Jerusalem, their consulate, and international aid - of course they weren't going to be part of it later.
Kushner basically trashed the Palestinian people with the type of statement that harkens back to the Paternalistic attitudes of the colonial empires:
"Do they want to have a state? Do they want to have a better life? If they do, we have created a framework for them to have it, and we’re going to treat them in a very respectful manner. If they don’t, then they’re going to screw up another opportunity like they’ve screwed up every other opportunity that they’ve ever had in their existence."
There is at best, a certain naiveté and arrogance in some of it. The development ideas are straight out of an American frame of reference and there is a certain pie-in-the-sky aspect to it (where in the heck is all the money going to come from?). There is a heavy reliance on state of the art this and high speed that and a hell of a lot of infrastructure. It reminds me of a real-estate developer's model for a proposed community sales pitch. Most often, development works best in conjunction with the communities it is supposed to serve and a bottom up not top down approach. Has anyone asked the Palestinian people (not leadership) what they envision?
I've only read the first 30 pages, and this is what I've noticed so far.
That said - I do think there are some possibilities, but it may have been rendered toxic by the method in which it was created.
And still - where will all this money come from? A lot of promises....That's crazy.Regarding this: As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
Jerusalem is off the table. Refugees are off the table Settlements are off the table. The Jordan Valley is off the table. Controlling your own borders is off the table.
So why don't you want to negotiate?
Some points from the article I posted upthread resonated with me. How do we know rocket attacks on Israel made from a future Palestinian state won't happen?
Gazan style.
The Pals and PIJ will proceed with those societal changes on the honor system. That's worked out so well for the Ummah's girls.
Quick Thoughts On Trump's Palestine-Israel Peace Deal
