Trump, the 14th and barring from office

[MinTrut]

Irrelevant.

For the 300th time, yes - congratulations.

 

[Oddball]

Section 3 Disqualification from Holding Office​

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

First, the Ballots

I don't see anything in the text that calls for, permits, or forbids removing a person's name from the ballots. In the primaries this is solely a State decision and in the General this still falls to the states although Federal jurisdiction may be inferred via the VRA.

I don't see that SCOTUS has any jurisdiction in the primary prospect and its jurisdiction in the General is "iffy."

Certification at the State

This is the first place I see that Trump could be excluded. State legislatures, under the 14th, could refuse to certify a Trump win and decide to submit a different slate of electors or no electors at all.

The Congress

One of three places Trump could be declared an insurrectionist. Courts, and State Legislatures being the others. My reading says that a majority of each House, any State legislature, or any Federal court has the authority to declare Trump an insurrectionist at which time Trump can only enter any Federal office, elected or not, upon a 2/3 vote of each house of Congress.

Not sure how it would work in the Congress. Would each House hold a separate vote as to whether Trump is an insurrectionist? Would the VP declare Trump ineligible and the collective Congress vote?

My thinking favors the latter as the VP is "in charge" during the certification process.

My own thinking here is that Trump is ineligible to hold any Federal office with the actual events and the numbers of people convicted for their actions under Trump's direction/banner.

I'd like to discuss how such a ban would be implemented.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

not deciding crimes.
14th requires no convictions.
and the selection of electors resides strictly with the states.

Check Article II, Section 1, Clause 2

So who decided it was an insurrection the Congress who had the authority or the states who doesn't have the authority?

 

[Dadoalex]

For the 300th time, yes - congratulations.

I see when you have nothing to say you say it anyway.
Irrelevant.

 

[Dadoalex]

View attachment 894459

If you've nothing to say, say that.

 

[Dadoalex]

So who decided it was an insurrection the Congress who had the authority or the states who doesn't have the authority?

Read section 3 of the 14th.

It doesn't say who decides that a person has participated in an insurrection.

But Article II, Section 1, Clause 2
Says the States choose the electors
Therefore, the first place such an action could occur is during the States' certification process.

Back to the 14th
If the State(s) refuse to seat the offender's electors the only remedy is for the Congress to reverse the decision with a 2/3 vote

Off to the Electoral College
The State(s) refusing the offender's electors could
.Send no electors
.Send electors free to vote as they will
.Send another candidate's electors

State(s) sending the offender's electors would force the EC to accept or decline those electors. If the EC chooses to deny the offender's electors that decision can only be reversed by a 2/3 vote of the Congress.

Off to Congress on Jan 6
The Congress by a 2/3 vote could decide to reinstate the offender's electors.
The Congress by a majority vote could disqualify the defender outright.
The Congress could decide to proceed with certification without altering any State/EC outcome, first to 270 wins.

If your argument is that there was no insurrection then you're really not qualified to discuss the topic.

I'm looking for an intellectual exercise here.
Given the process as it exists how would such an action proceed.
If you're looking to argue insurrection or not, wrong thread.

 

[noonereal]

Section 3 Disqualification from Holding Office​

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

First, the Ballots

I don't see anything in the text that calls for, permits, or forbids removing a person's name from the ballots. In the primaries this is solely a State decision and in the General this still falls to the states although Federal jurisdiction may be inferred via the VRA.

I don't see that SCOTUS has any jurisdiction in the primary prospect and its jurisdiction in the General is "iffy."

Certification at the State

This is the first place I see that Trump could be excluded. State legislatures, under the 14th, could refuse to certify a Trump win and decide to submit a different slate of electors or no electors at all.

The Congress

One of three places Trump could be declared an insurrectionist. Courts, and State Legislatures being the others. My reading says that a majority of each House, any State legislature, or any Federal court has the authority to declare Trump an insurrectionist at which time Trump can only enter any Federal office, elected or not, upon a 2/3 vote of each house of Congress.

Not sure how it would work in the Congress. Would each House hold a separate vote as to whether Trump is an insurrectionist? Would the VP declare Trump ineligible and the collective Congress vote?

My thinking favors the latter as the VP is "in charge" during the certification process.

My own thinking here is that Trump is ineligible to hold any Federal office with the actual events and the numbers of people convicted for their actions under Trump's direction/banner.

I'd like to discuss how such a ban would be implemented.

Why do we have a 14th amendment if we will not respect it?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Read section 3 of the 14th.

It doesn't say who decides that a person has participated in an insurrection.

But Article II, Section 1, Clause 2
Says the States choose the electors
Therefore, the first place such an action could occur is during the States' certification process.

Back to the 14th
If the State(s) refuse to seat the offender's electors the only remedy is for the Congress to reverse the decision with a 2/3 vote

Off to the Electoral College
The State(s) refusing the offender's electors could
.Send no electors
.Send electors free to vote as they will
.Send another candidate's electors

State(s) sending the offender's electors would force the EC to accept or decline those electors. If the EC chooses to deny the offender's electors that decision can only be reversed by a 2/3 vote of the Congress.

Off to Congress on Jan 6
The Congress by a 2/3 vote could decide to reinstate the offender's electors.
The Congress by a majority vote could disqualify the defender outright.
The Congress could decide to proceed with certification without altering any State/EC outcome, first to 270 wins.

If your argument is that there was no insurrection then you're really not qualified to discuss the topic.

I'm looking for an intellectual exercise here.
Given the process as it exists how would such an action proceed.
If you're looking to argue insurrection or not, wrong thread.

What are your grounds for removing Trump from any ballot?

 

[noonereal]

who decided it was an insurrection

Decided? We all saw it. It was never kept secret. Part of Trump's genius to evade culpability.
We all saw it organized for a year prior and executed on 1/6.

 

[Lesh]

They can remove everybody from the ballots if they want. Let them.

WE THE PEOPLE have the RIGHT to write in on the ballot ANYBODY we choose. And there's NOTHING they can do about that!

And they get no electors. Go for it

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Why do we have a 14th amendment if we will not respect it?

It's a congressional remedy that controlled the states and Congress has the only authority for its use.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Decided? We all saw it. It was never kept secret. Part of Trump's genius to evade culpability.
We all saw it organized for a year prior and executed on 1/6.

Who decided it was an insurrection?

 

[noonereal]

It's a congressional remedy that controlled the states and Congress has the only authority for its use.

You are wrong on this point or Colorado could not have removed him.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

You are wrong on this point or Colorado could not have removed him.

I'm not wrong read section 5

 

[noonereal]

Who decided it was an insurrection?

No formal declaration is required by statute.
His actions made clear his intent.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

No formal declaration is required by statute.
His actions made clear his intent.

States can't decided federal law

 

[noonereal]

I'm not wrong read section 5

Tell that to Colorado.

Thanks

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Tell that to Colorado.

Thanks

It's going to get over turned as a matter if fact Colorado supreme court stayed their ruling

 

[noonereal]

They can remove everybody from the ballots if they want. Let them.

WE THE PEOPLE have the RIGHT to write in on the ballot ANYBODY we choose. And there's NOTHING they can do about that!

Yes, you can write in a traitor and attempt to end democracy.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Yes, you can write in a traitor and attempt to end democracy.

Joe and the democrat cult ended the republic